Date Rape

[that girl]

Sanskrit- why do you feel the need to post about false reports? Elaina started this thread to discuss ways women could try to prevent rape and you immediately jumped in to say how "misandrist" rape research is and claim that 25% of reported rapes are false.

 

Even if you think false reports are rampant, why don't you have some concern for women who are worried about being raped?

 

Since you ask, those interested in a balanced view of the subject should do some reading here [COLOR=#660000]http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com...pe-claims.html[/COLOR] and draw their own conclusions as opposed to getting "pissed off" merely at the prospect that there is another POV.

 

That post is nonsense. I have already debunked the Air Force and Kanin/Purdue research on the first page, including a quote from a specialist in researching men's sexual trauma. They simply don't hold up.

 

Rumney's encyclopedic 2006 Cambridge Law study, which you can find grossly summarized here, is something I scanned a couple years back, but can't find my copy to cite properly, so the wiki summary will have to do. [COLOR=#660000]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape[/COLOR]

I googled and found the full paper here http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1366225

 

What it actually says is:

 

1- In the UK, the Home Office found that many rapes were classified as no-crime without the necessary justification. When the Home Office published a curricular explaining when a rape allegation should be classified as not a crime (which requires the victim recant), the rate dropped to just under 4%.

 

2- There is huge variability in false report research. The author makes the point that when scientists look at the data, they get very low numbers but police officers gut instincts place the number much higher. Considering how rape cases where being classified incorrectly, the researchers numbers are more reliable. He goes into great detail criticising studies with high false report rates for their lack of rigor (like one woman was counted as a false rape complaint because he believed her underwear was too tight for someone else to remove, which is a ridiculous reason to throw out a rape complaint).

 

3- The article is pretty critical of police officers, pointing out that many were unsympathetic to rape victims (remember this research is often quite old).

 

4- He then makes similar points about research in the US and Canada- the police were often unsympathetic and listed cases as unfounded without the necessary proof.

 

5- He then goes through a supposed 2% false report rate used by victim's advocates and doesn't find any proof for it.

 

Overall, he is mostly discussing new directions for research, but he finds more to criticise in the methodology of the studies with high numbers compared to the low false report studies that are generally more rigorous.

 

The entire repressed memory and satanic abuse scams of the late 80s and early 90s were massive cultural phenomena in the U.S. perpetuated by the "sexual abuse/social counseling industry"

Yes, these were both crazy, but they're not really relevant to adult women who claim to have been raped as adults. Repressed memory and satanic cults are totally different issues.

 

Basically, when the prospect of a lie detector test enters the picture, MANY women recant their rape claims.

But that doesn't mean they wouldn't pass. Imagine you're 19 and you've just be brutally assaulted. Having faith in the police, you report the crime and have an invasive physical exam. You're bruised, you're tired, you're worried that people will think you deserved to get raped, you worry that everyone will know what he did to you. Suddenly the police officer tells you that before they investigate your assault, you have to take a lie detector test. Wouldn't part of you just think "Forget it. They don't believe me, there wasn't enough evidence and he's going to get away with it. I'd rather go home and cry than be hooked up to a machine while they judge me."

 

They don't ask other victims of crimes to do this, just rape victims, and the FBI says it is a terrible policy.

 

Even Kanin (the author) said he didn't think the study was generalizable.

 

 

Up to you whether the Air Force had some vested interest in juggling the numbers or not.

There was a congressional investigation and numerous members of the Air Force hierarchy admitted that the reporting procedures were a huge problem.

[sanskrit]

Sanskrit- why do you feel the need to post about false reports?

 

Because an alternate POV on the actual prevalence and "danger" of being date-raped in a somewhat alarmist thread on the issue is thoroughly topical, despite yours and other's efforts to "shout down" the contra POV.

 

 

Even if you think false reports are rampant, why don't you have some concern for women who are worried about being raped?

 

Reread my first post to the thread. My concern is for 1) real victims of the crime of rape, and 2) falsely accused men and their families. Those are two groups who have urgent realities to worry about.

 

That post is nonsense. I have already debunked the Air Force and Kanin/Purdue research on the first page, including a quote from a specialist in researching men's sexual trauma. They simply don't hold up.

 

1. I invite readers in the thread to read for themselves and draw their own conclusions. The purpose for linking to the blog was more for the archives there than the actual linked article, which is why I clearly stated to "do some reading" as opposed to "read this particular article."

 

2. You aren't in a position to "debunk" anything, or rather, on the off-chance you are, please cite the research -you- have personally conducted on the matter. "That post is nonsense" is not compelling analysis.

 

Overall, he is mostly

 

Thanks for the link. I invite readers to read the study for themselves, and find your summary exceptionally slanted.

 

but they're not really relevant to adult women who claim to have been raped as adults.

 

As stated, they are relevant to the tendency of politically motivated special interests to make false claims to accomplish their agendas, and to highlight the lack of any penalty for doing so in current U.S. culture. I am puzzled that you don't see the prospective correlations between mass hysteria induced false claims of repressed memory rape and satanic ritual abuse and date rape claims. Same agenda, different focus.

 

Moreover, I fail to see any reason for distinguishing between women claiming to be raped as children or as adults. Your conclusory statement here doesn't make any sense. A claim is a claim is a claim, and parallels are easily drawn between repressed memories from the past (not necessarily childhood) and the self-induced intoxication under which many false date rape claims originate.

 

Repressed memory and satanic cults are totally different issues.

 

You need to do a bit more reading on this topic. They are not at all totally different issues, but fruit of the same tree.

 

Imagine you're 19

 

Once more, readers can draw their own conclusions. Nothing you are saying here is particularly compelling IMO.

 

Restating, anyone wanting to explore a more balanced view on date rape should read the Sommers article I linked in the edit. IMO, it has everything one needs to know on the topic and the true magnitude of the "date rape" threat. Read for yourself and draw your own conclusions. That's what I finally did after accepting doctrinaire, politically motivated bogus statistics for years, and am very glad I did.

[Kamille]

On the topic of communication and rape, one of the most fascinating book I ever read was Deborah Cameron's The Myth of Mars and Venus. I couldn't find a link to the actual chapter, which is really worth a read for those interested by the topic of justice and rape and which links to Aerogurl's post about "having the power to say no".

 

In the chapter, Cameron points out that in western society, neither men nor women are socialized into handing out direct rejections. If you invite me over for dinner and I don't feel like going, I won't tell you: "Your cooking sucks and you are boring" I will likely say "No, I have other plans, but thank you for the invite".

 

Yet, we expect women to suddenly hand out direct rejection in a situation where they are feeling vulnerable and have likely tried to assert themselves in ways which are normally recognized as legitimate by our society: by making excuses.

 

Here's the citation:

 

 

One acute observation in The Myth of Mars and Venus revolves around rape trials where, Cameron believes, Mars and Venus logic has become the ultimate get-out clause for defendants. Cameron cites one rape trial in Canada in the 1990s where the female complainant is asked: “Did it occur to you through the persistent behaviour that maybe your signals were not coming across loud and clear”, while the male complainant states simply: “She said that she was tired but she never said like ‘no’, ‘stop’, ‘don’t’.”

 

Cameron argues that both men and women are perfectly capable of understanding what a woman saying ‘I’m tired’ and feigning unconsciousness means, but no one thinks to ask why the defendant is being so obtuse. The complainant, on the other hand, is roasted for not being direct enough. The myth of Mars and Venus bolsters a great escape route for the defendant: miscommunication.

 

from :

Talking tosh on Mars and Venus, The Sunday Times; http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/article2602555.ece

[Taramere]

I really don't understand the teasing aspect and why she felt she owed the guy sex. We also don't know the circumstances of how it happened. Did she go to the club with the guy, we're they dating/friends? Did she meet the guy at the club?

 

After a night of dancing and drinking and then being alone at his place or hers, most men will try to go for sex.

 

There are plenty of decent guys out there who will stop making advances if they're not getting the green light. They would, of course, be the decent guys who are constantly slated as "AFCs" by the type of person who may very well have had a sexual offence allegation made against him at some point.

 

Aerogurl's post demonstrates how women often subscribe to the notion that because they have let themselves be in the position where they're alone with a man, and have maybe kissed him, they "owe" him sex. That it's practically a criminal offence to do anything that might be described by any guy as "prick-teasing". Though some people regard anything and everything an attractive woman does in a sexual light, and will perceive prick teasing in all of it.

 

Pricktease is a term that may well apply to some women who get off on encouraging a man to be all hot and bothered, then saying no to sex. However that's something different to the common situation where a woman might have kissed a man in a drunken embrace or a spur of the moment thing, but not be anywhere close to having the intimacy with him that sex involves.

 

I think the answer is demonstrated in the many threads on here where men and women do battle. It's incumbent on women to have the confidence to express our opinions and our boundaries regardless of whether men attack us verbally for doing so. To recognise and accept that expressing our boundaries sometimes carries the consequence of being disliked, rejected or thought negatively of. Which is why some women choose not to have clear boundaries around men. Because they're more concerned with being liked and accepted by them. Or because they're afraid of them. What prevents women from being assertive in those situations? The book Kamille refers to probably explores that in greater depth.

 

Men also have responsibilities. It's incumbent upon men to interact with women in a manner in a manner that is somewhat more respectful and worthy of a member of the human species than simply "I want to have sex with this woman. My role is to get what I want, and hers is to try to stop me." What prevents men from behaving in a more thoughtful and respectful manner towards women they want to have sex with? Perhaps one of the men here could answer that one, because the answer isn't clear to me.

 

The problem is not that she didn't consent, it's that she didn't say no or try to resist. Correct me if I'm wrong, but most girls aren't going to say, "Please f-me" the first time they have sex with a guy. The guy will try and it's her job to stop it if she's not feeling comfortable.

 

You don't think the guy shares some responsibility in exploring whether this woman actually wants to have sex with him? What's wrong with "are you okay with this?" That gives the woman opportunity to either say "yes, I'm ready" or "I don't feel ready yet." If you don't want to give the woman that opportunity, then that doesn't reflect very well on you at all. I agree that if a woman hasn't actively told a man "no" then he shouldn't be convicted as a rapist. However, if he's the kind of man who believes that it's okay to push a woman he barely knows/has just met down and have sex with her without checking that she's happy and comfortable for that to happen, then he deserves to get a reputation for being a creep and borderline rapist.

 

I'm not talking about situations where there is strong mutual passion. I'm talking about situations where the woman seems unenthusiastic - or is perhaps drunk/high on some substance and in a world of her own. In those latter situations, if you don't believe the guy has a responsibility to actively check that the woman is okay with having sex with him, then it's likely that you'll put yourself in the kind of situation where a date rape allegation might be made against you. No doubt you would plead innocent victimhood because of your view that the woman carries all the responsibility in these situations, while the man has no responsibility but to get his rocks off.

 

If you don't like the notion of being vulnerable to date rape allegations, then start taking a bit of responsibility and checking that women do in fact want to have sex with you, before getting stuck in there. My God - it's hardly asking for the world to expect men to do that.

 

Kamille - your reference is interesting, and relates to something I've thought about before. Women are constantly given messages about being compliant, agreeable etc in order to be appealing to men. Assertive women are often regarded in a very negative way - and yet women are suddenly expected to become very assertive in these most sensitive of circumstances where they might well be in physical danger.

 

A frustrated man might well become an angry, aggressive and violent one in response to any situation he perceives as provocative or frustrating. For a woman to clearly and firmly say "no I don't want sex with you" to a man she doesn't know very well might be a risky strategy. One that could result in violence being done against her in a situation where there's nobody around to help. Which is why we have to develop radars for men who are particularly prone to anger, frustration and aggression - and avoid getting into situations where we're alone with them.

 

If those men become even more frustrated because women feel creeped out by them and don't want to date/be alone with them, well that's not really anybody's problem other than theirs.

Edited October 9, 2010 by Taramere

[Floridaman]

I'm not talking about situations where there is strong mutual passion. I'm talking about situations where the woman seems unenthusiastic - or is perhaps drunk/high on some substance and in a world of her own. In those latter situations, if you don't believe the guy has a responsibility to actively check that the woman is okay with having sex with him, then it's likely that you'll put yourself in the kind of situation where a date rape allegation might be made against you. No doubt you would plead innocent victimhood because of your view that the woman carries all the responsibility in these situations, while the man has no responsibility but to get his rocks off.

.

Exactly. My point wasn't at all about aerogurl's situation, which was clearly rape as she didn't put herself in a compromising situation.

What I was talking about was more hypothetical.

 

I said this wasn't a case of where they were in the throes of passion and she didn't resist him going further but instantly or later regreted it.

 

Okay, I'll repost. I edited it out bec. I thought some would think I was condoning forceful sex (which I never would condone).

 

--

I agree with some but not all of this.

Being out with a person after clubbing, I don't necessarly think that puts her in a dangerous situation where she was "teasing" him.

 

Now if this were someone she knew well and was lying next to him without any clothes on and doing and receiving oral, caressing, etc., - but didn't want to let him go all the way - some might say that was teasing and that she willingly put herself in a much more risky - and foolish - situation.

....

If she didn't consent to intercouse, her man shouldn't have forced himself into her. If she says no, she means no.

 

In this heavy petting that led to non-consensual sexual assault, I couldn't see her accusing him of rape bec. she admits she put herself in a bad situation by willingly doing those things.

...

She wasn't forced to do sex play. Could she have gotten up and left?

This doesn't mean she deserves it, though. I imagine many women lost their virginity this way.

 

I certainly wouldn't want to be in the woman's role.

 

However, while most wouldn't agree with her partner's physical force, I can see how some would have less sympathy for her where she did everything that would be counter to someone saying they didn't want sex.

 

I made it clear I didn't support nonconsensual sex, in any situation.

I was not speaking of Aerogurl's situation and should have stated that.

I knew I have should have kept the comments edited out...

Edited October 9, 2010 by Floridaman

[Floridaman]

What alternative reality do you live in Floridaman that you somehow think Aerogurl was having oral and anal sex and then freaked out about vaginal sex. She didn't mention heavy petting, but normally that means touching boobs and some genital touching, not anal sex.

I was not talking about her specific case. I regret writing what I wrote and should have made it clear this was about a hypothetical situation, not her's which was clearly rape.

The post didn't belong here and I should have kept it edited out, but then the other poster responded as I was deleting it...

[TaurusTerp]

Oh come off it. These suggestions for men are ridiculous. Who the hell is going to stop and say "Are you okay with this?"? That would totally ruin the mood. If you don't want to have sex, just say no and ****ing push the guy off.

 

How can it be rape if you don't indicate you dont want to have sex? That makes no sense.

[Taramere]

Oh come off it. These suggestions for men are ridiculous. Who the hell is going to stop and say "Are you okay with this?"? That would totally ruin the mood. If you don't want to have sex, just say no and ****ing push the guy off.

 

How can it be rape if you don't indicate you dont want to have sex? That makes no sense.

 

Well, I've certainly had a guy check that I was okay, and it didn't spoil anything. Adults can communicate with eachother like that. If you don't want to take on responsibility for growing up and having some kind of effective communciation with the people you sleep with, then don't bitch about the consequences if it turns out that there's been some horrible misunderstanding that you're being held to account for.

[TaurusTerp]

Well, I've certainly had a guy check that I was okay, and it didn't spoil anything. Adults can communicate with eachother like that. If you don't want to take on responsibility for growing up and having some kind of effective communciation with the people you sleep with, then don't bitch about the consequences if it turns out that there's been some horrible misunderstanding that you're being held to account for.

 

Horrible misunderstanding? Haha, that's hilarious. How can RAPE be a misunderstanding? Are you kidding me?

[somedude81]

You're still placing a lot of doubt on Aerogurl's account which I can't imagine you doing if she said she was hit by a car.

I have no doubt that she had a sexual experience that she wasn't comfortable with and that she now regrets doing. What I doubt is the fact that she was actually raped.

 

This is actually assuming the default setting is yes. If the default setting was no, a woman would have to say yes in order to have sex rather than say no to stop sex.

 

The bottom line for me is I think every man should be looking for enthusiastic consent- a woman who pulls him closer, kisses him, undresses him, etc. I'm not expecting anyone to ask "Is this okay?" before every escalation, but "I'm going to keep going until you tell me to stop" is sad, if not abusive. Sex is supposed to be mutual. I think if a guy is ever in doubt of whether the girl is enjoying herself (or is too scared, drunk, whatever), he should simply pull back. A woman who is enjoying herself will reach out for you.

 

Ask. Pull back and see if she reaches for you. Sex is supposed to be something two people do together, not something one person does to another.

Thank you for your side on this. I was not able to see it that way at all.

 

Over the years I have read a lot of material written by the Pick Up (PU) community. One topic that is constantly brought up is Last Minute Resistance. (LMR) It's the belief that most women will try to refuse first time sex with a new guy. The community gives tips on how to get over that which results in the girl letting the guy sleep with her, without raping her. Physically forcing a girl to have sex is easy and most guys are decent enough to not do that. So when a girl doesn't resist at all, it can be seen as a green light. None of those guys would ever dream about asking her if she wanted to do it, because there's a huge chance she'd say no.

 

And before anybody says anything, I have only ever had sex with girls that have very clearly expressed that they wanted to do so.

Aerogurl actually said she was afraid AND she didn't want to be seen as a tease, not she was afraid of being seen as a tease. To me that says she was worried he would hurt her in some way AND she was worried about being called a tease. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is how I read it.

 

This is so optimistic, but it is hard to know who someone is.

I am a very gentle person and I greatly enjoy the company of women. I can't imagine every physically hurting a woman and can't understand why a man would.

 

So the whole concept of going along with sex, to avoid having the man hurt her is hard for me to understand.

Odds are, there is a woman out there who has been a little afraid of you at one point or another. Not necessarily you're fault, but many (most?) women who see a guy walking behind them on an empty street or parking lot will at least wonder for a second if he might hurt her. It isn't something to be offended about, but it is something to be aware of. Women worry about things you don't even have to think about.

I thought it was obvious we are only talking about intimate encounters. Whether or not a girl walking alone at night and see's me coming towards her, and thinks I might hurt her; is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

I'm talking about after I've been out with a girl, we've dated for a while, we're making out, sex is a possibility, then she suddenly thinks that I might hurt her if she resists.

 

That's when I would get upset because I'd expect her to know me well enough to know that I can't hurt her. And to think so is an attack on my character.

[Floridaman]

Well, I've certainly had a guy check that I was okay, and it didn't spoil anything. Adults can communicate with eachother like that. If you don't want to take on responsibility for growing up and having some kind of effective communciation with the people you sleep with, then don't bitch about the consequences if it turns out that there's been some horrible misunderstanding that you're being held to account for.

Before I became sexually involved with my fiancee who I married, I always asked if I could go in. Asked her too.

 

The request usually came as we were unclothed and followed some heavy petty and giving her oral, so I didn't "assume" she wanted me but could certainly see the obvious signs of invitation.

 

Not all of them obliged, and that frustrated me. So I would have to climax outside of her, where I didn't want to shoot for.

 

Many were technical virgins (they weren't "innocent").

One wasn't a virgin, though she had limited experience.

She even told me once she could use some "stretching" of her area.

 

Why couldn't she let me go in like she let those other guys that were older than me?

 

I was all excited and got her hot, yet she gave me the red light.

[Taramere]

Horrible misunderstanding? Haha, that's hilarious. How can RAPE be a misunderstanding? Are you kidding me?

 

Rape is sex that one of the parties did not consent to.

 

Consent can be a grey area - as evidenced by comments on this board. Some men have indicated that if the woman didn't say no and push him off, they'll take that as a yes....whereas many women have indicated the belief that consent is something that is actively given. Either verbally or more commonly by the woman actively demonstrating her physical desire for sex in the way she touches the man.

 

So the notion that rape can be a misunderstanding is neither ridiculous nor hilarious, as you seem to think. If a woman didn't want to have sex with a man, and didn't feel able (perhaps through fear that the man didn't pick up on) to signal this to him, then the chances are she's going to feel raped. If she didn't consent then she's entitled to say "I was raped" - but this doesn't automatically mean the man will be convicted and sent to prison for rape. If the man honestly believed that the fact that she didn't say no and fight him off meant that she was freely consenting, then from his perspective he didn't rape her...and if (in my jurisdiction at any rate) he can convince a jury that he honestly believed she was consenting then even if they don't regard that belief as a reasonable one, they will have to acquit him.

 

Does that make it any clearer to you why I believe some situations that result in allegations of date rape might stem from a misunderstanding based on differing perceptions of what constitutes "consent"?

Edited October 9, 2010 by Taramere

[Eclypse]

Just thought I'd like to point out in Aerogurls story that they had been out clubbing which likely meant that one or both of them were drunk. When you are drunk your perception and inhibitions lowered. For most guys if the girl they are with doesn't say no or resist and especially if they are drunk they won't have any idea that what they are doing is hurting her. Of course we do not know the full story of how he or she were acting but in most cases guys can be quite clueless and completely have no idea what girls want or do not want unless it's spelled out for them (especially if it is a ONS and they don't know her). So it would be unfair to say the man raped her since the whole "guilty mind, guilty act" isn't there.

 

At the moment here in Australia there have been numerous stories of girls partying with footballers and then going back to their apartments for orgies. And when they sober up the next morning they decide to accuse them of sexual assault. So the question is who is at fault there? It's an ongoing debate and I don't know the answer really.

[Taramere]

in most cases guys can be quite clueless and completely have no idea what girls want or do not want unless it's spelled out for them (especially if it is a ONS and they don't know her). So it would be unfair to say the man raped her since the whole "guilty mind, guilty act" isn't there.

 

It would be unfair and wrong to convict him of rape and send him to prison if he honestly thought she was consenting. If, however, the girl started to go around saying "I was raped by X" and he attempted to sue her for saying that - a possible outcome of the footballer scenario you mentioned - it would likely be a different story. In that context, the standard of proof would be "balance of probabilities" rather than "beyond reasonable doubt."

 

Her saying "I didn't consent to sex and therefore in my view I was raped" would probably be enough for the court to decide "no, she's not defamed the pursuer. Rape means sex without consent. If she didn't consent, then she was raped." The guilty mind, guilty act", doesn't apply in that situation because it's a civil case rather than a criminal one. It's also important to bear in mind, with guilty mind, guilty act, that guilty mind can be demonstrated by recklessness as well as by active desire to commit a harm against someone else.

 

So if a guy goes ahead and has sex with a woman with a reckless disregard as to whether or not she is consenting to it, and if from her perspective she isn't consenting that's rape to a criminal standard. He has to be actively certain that she's consenting, as opposed to "I'm not sure whether or not she's up for this, but I'm going to forge ahead in any case."

[waynebrady]

Just thought I'd like to point out in Aerogurls story that they had been out clubbing which likely meant that one or both of them were drunk. When you are drunk your perception and inhibitions lowered. For most guys if the girl they are with doesn't say no or resist and especially if they are drunk they won't have any idea that what they are doing is hurting her. Of course we do not know the full story of how he or she were acting but in most cases guys can be quite clueless and completely have no idea what girls want or do not want unless it's spelled out for them (especially if it is a ONS and they don't know her). So it would be unfair to say the man raped her since the whole "guilty mind, guilty act" isn't there.

 

At the moment here in Australia there have been numerous stories of girls partying with footballers and then going back to their apartments for orgies. And when they sober up the next morning they decide to accuse them of sexual assault. So the question is who is at fault there? It's an ongoing debate and I don't know the answer really.

 

yep exactly... The situation aerogirl was in was not rape, it was bad but it was not rape. If she said no and resisted would the guy have continued? Obviously I don't know but maybe he would have... just saying. That's why I don't think it's rape if the woman didn't say no or tried to resist or get out of the situation and just letting the guy do it without saying stop which could have prevented it. I do think it was a pretty classless thing of the guy to do that though but it wasn't rape.

[sweetjasmine]

On top of that, the notion of a trial or questioning by the police scared them to the point of walking away.

 

This is what would make me hesitate in reporting anything unless it was of the stranger-in-an-alley-with-witnesses-nearby variety. Quite honestly, I think not reporting rape or sexual assault would help me heal faster.

 

I say this because to drastically reduce the occurrence of this type of rapew there has to be some modification of behavior by about 1/4 of the male population. How and what I don't know.

 

I think part of it is the whole "men have to be aggressive and assertive to be attractive" thing. How many men ask for a kiss? How many just go for it?

 

Now, I'm not saying men should be asking if they can kiss a woman, but there's clearly some sort of communication problem if there are guys out there who think that they need to just go ahead and stick their d-ck in and keep going unless she gets angry and says, "STOP!" because that's what it means to be an assertive masculine guy.

 

And then there's revolting garbage like this:

Over the years I have read a lot of material written by the Pick Up (PU) community. One topic that is constantly brought up is Last Minute Resistance. (LMR) It's the belief that most women will try to refuse first time sex with a new guy. The community gives tips on how to get over that which results in the girl letting the guy sleep with her, without raping her. Physically forcing a girl to have sex is easy and most guys are decent enough to not do that. So when a girl doesn't resist at all, it can be seen as a green light. None of those guys would ever dream about asking her if she wanted to do it, because there's a huge chance she'd say no.

 

It's apparently a-okay to manipulate someone into doing something they're not exactly sure about just because you want a piece of p-ssy. Even though you know full well that if you stop and actually ask instead of playing mind games, they'll say no to you.

 

I'm talking about after I've been out with a girl, we've dated for a while, we're making out, sex is a possibility, then she suddenly thinks that I might hurt her if she resists.

 

That's when I would get upset because I'd expect her to know me well enough to know that I can't hurt her. And to think so is an attack on my character.

 

It is rather insulting from your shoes. But the reality of it is that a woman can't know for sure. A few dates doesn't tell her everything about you. I've seen this sh-t happen before.

 

I don't think you understand how vulnerable it can feel on the other end of it.

[Kamille]

 

 

 

 

 

Kamille - your reference is interesting, and relates to something I've thought about before. Women are constantly given messages about being compliant, agreeable etc in order to be appealing to men. Assertive women are often regarded in a very negative way - and yet women are suddenly expected to become very assertive in these most sensitive of circumstances where they might well be in physical danger.

 

A frustrated man might well become an angry, aggressive and violent one in response to any situation he perceives as provocative or frustrating. For a woman to clearly and firmly say "no I don't want sex with you" to a man she doesn't know very well might be a risky strategy. One that could result in violence being done against her in a situation where there's nobody around to help. Which is why we have to develop radars for men who are particularly prone to anger, frustration and aggression - and avoid getting into situations where we're alone with them.

 

If those men become even more frustrated because women feel creeped out by them and don't want to date/be alone with them, well that's not really anybody's problem other than theirs.

 

Another more likely scenario is that the 'miscommunication' starts way before boy and girl find themselves in the bedroom.

 

The likely scenario is: Boy thinks girl is hot, starts flirting with girl, girl likes boy, they head home together. Boy only sees this as a ONS and girl is hoping boy likes her back. Here, the boy isn't communicating that he just wants to have sex. He leaves the ball in girl's court to "protect her best interest", without sharing some important information about his intentions. The girl is expected to figure out the guy's intention without him actually enunciating them.

 

Meanwhile, she wants him to like her. So, she tells him: "We should take things slow", "I don't sleep with guys on a first night", "I'm tired", "How about we just cuddle?" "ok I'll cuddle with you but no sex please", etc etc etc. I know I've uttered formulations of the kind in the past, all of which actually mean: "Please, respect that I don't want to have sex now". Guy keeps pushing, girl sees she got herself in a misunderstanding, and, has a choice: Either she ruins the mood and accuses guy of being a rapist by saying : I said NO and pushing him off - which I have done-, or she goes along with him. Lose lose.

 

By the way, a guy asking : "You sure you want this?" has never ruined the mood for me. Rather the opposite. It allows me to say : "Yes, I do, you're so hot, get your clothes off".

Edited October 9, 2010 by Kamille

[waynebrady]

It's in a man's nature to push for sex, it's the woman's job to try and stop it if she doesn't want to do it.

 

I couldn't agree more. Men have in general alot higher sex drive than women and will try to get sex anytime they can. If a woman doesn't say no or try to stop it the man might assume she is ok with it and take the opportunity to have sex.

 

If a woman in aerogirls situation said no and resisted, the man might have stopped you know. A simple no could have prevented the whole situation... If the woman said no and the man still continued then it's defenitley rape offcourse.

[Kamille]

I couldn't agree more. Men have in general alot higher sex drive than women and will try to get sex anytime they can. If a woman doesn't say no or try to stop it the man might assume she is ok with it and take the opportunity to have sex.

 

If a woman in aerogirls situation said no and resisted, the man might have stopped you know. A simple no could have prevented the whole situation... If the woman said no and the man still continued then it's defenitley rape offcourse.

 

 

What about if the girl said: "Sure, I'll come in, but no sex right?" right at the door of the apartment. Does that count as a no?

 

What about "Is it okay if we just cuddle?", does that count as a No. When, exactly, does a request for "No sex", count as "no"?

[Floridaman]

reformatting post

[Floridaman]

What about if the girl said: "Sure, I'll come in, but no sex right?" right at the door of the apartment. Does that count as a no?

 

What about "Is it okay if we just cuddle?", does that count as a No. When, exactly, does a request for "No sex", count as "no"?

 

Good questions both parties need to ponder.

 

What if the two are naked, have been intimate in other ways that eve. and he's arising to mount her?

 

She could have last second (literally) second thoughts as he is dangerously close to him doing her.

 

What if she's even given him permission, but she panics and gets scared?

[waynebrady]

What about if the girl said: "Sure, I'll come in, but no sex right?" right at the door of the apartment. Does that count as a no?

 

What about "Is it okay if we just cuddle?", does that count as a No. When, exactly, does a request for "No sex", count as "no"?

 

Yes offcourse that count's as a no and it would be rape if the man tried to have sex with her. If a man continues to try and have sex with a woman even though she has said all that then he is a rapist, shure... If a woman doesn't say no, doesn't say she doesn't want sex or tries to resist at all and just let's the guy have sex with her, then it isn't rape simple as that. Because a no or a stop or trying to resist might have prevented the whole situation. If a woman doesn't say no, the man might not know that she didn't want to do it, if he would maybe he would have stopped.

[somedude81]

I think part of it is the whole "men have to be aggressive and assertive to be attractive" thing. How many men ask for a kiss? How many just go for it?

 

Now, I'm not saying men should be asking if they can kiss a woman, but there's clearly some sort of communication problem if there are guys out there who think that they need to just go ahead and stick their d-ck in and keep going unless she gets angry and says, "STOP!" because that's what it means to be an assertive masculine guy.

So you're starting to see things from the mans side. Yes being assertive is a huge part.

 

When it comes to avoiding rape, the only things men are taught, is to stop when the girls says no or resists. That's how our society is.

 

My wish for this thread is that it will give tips to women on how to avoid date rape and for men to see how their actions could be interpreted as rape.

It's apparently a-okay to manipulate someone into doing something they're not exactly sure about just because you want a piece of p-ssy. Even though you know full well that if you stop and actually ask instead of playing mind games, they'll say no to you.

Google "last minute resistance." You'll get about 2 million hits. Many men do think it's OK. Not only that, they want to know how to do it.

It is rather insulting from your shoes. But the reality of it is that a woman can't know for sure. A few dates doesn't tell her everything about you. I've seen this sh-t happen before.

 

I don't think you understand how vulnerable it can feel on the other end of it.

You're right that I do not understand the vulnerability aspect.

Meanwhile, she wants him to like her. So, she tells him: "We should take things slow", "I don't sleep with guys on a first night", "I'm tired", "How about we just cuddle?" "ok I'll cuddle with you but no sex please", etc etc etc. I know I've uttered formulations of the kind in the past, all of which actually mean: "Please, respect that I don't want to have sex now". Guy keeps pushing, girl sees she got herself in a misunderstanding, and, has a choice: Either she ruins the mood and accuses guy of being a rapist by saying : I said NO and pushing him off - which I have done-, or she goes along with him. Lose lose.

Ruins the mood?!

 

It should be obvious that the guy wants sex. Getting into that mood in the first place is the mistake. It's just going to turn the guy on even more.

What about if the girl said: "Sure, I'll come in, but no sex right?" right at the door of the apartment. Does that count as a no?

Hell no!

 

It just gives the impression that you actually want sex because you brought it up. It's just seems something one would say to reassure themselves that they aren't a slut.

 

Any guy would lie and say, "Sure no sex" with every intention of trying to get in her pants.

 

So if I'm on a date with a girl and I invite her in with the intention of having sex, which she should know. And she gives me that line and still comes in, then it's absolutely guaranteed I'll try to have sex with her. If she absolutely didn't want sex, then she should have not gone inside.

What about "Is it okay if we just cuddle?", does that count as a No. When, exactly, does a request for "No sex", count as "no"?

Nope, that doesn't count either.

 

Again the guy will lie and agree with her, knowing that he's going to try. The cuddling will usually lead to making out. That is the time to stop the guy. Get up and leave if you have to.

 

If you don't want to get bit, don't stick your head in the lions mouth.

 

Women, please have some common sense.

[Kamille]

S

Any guy would lie and say, "Sure no sex" with every intention of trying to get in her pants.

 

...

 

Again the guy will lie and agree with her, knowing that he's going to try. The cuddling will usually lead to making out. That is the time to stop the guy. Get up and leave if you have to.

I rest my case.

 

Men who do this are the ones responsible for the miscommunication.

 

Women, please have some common sense.

 

Men, please have some decency.

[somedude81]

LOL decency?! Sorry Kamille, the world doesn't work like that.

 

If a man invites you into his place, and both of you know that he wants sex; why would you go inside?!