Date Rape

[Taramere]

Agree. I have never pressed further when a woman blocked me from penetration. Of course I wanted to go farther but it's up to her.

 

Certainly, I never wanted to force someone to have sex with me, but I also feared the consequences of pushing her too far. She may not want to see me again.

 

This woman I was sex playing with (oral, etc.) would never open up for me go in. One night, in cuddling after she had been drinking (I don't drink anything but a little wine), she told me "I want you..."

 

I liked hearing that and got mentally excited, but questioned her, given her previous stopping me at the gate (she wasn't a virgin, but had limited experience, btw). She was a practicing Christian and I don't think she wanted the guilt of another sexual relationship.

 

She then changed her mind and we didn't ML. I felt better about asking her because I wasn't just after her body - though I really wanted her physically. I thought doing that would have been taking advantage of her in her state of intoxication.

 

Maybe I should have gone in as she gave me the green light.

 

Well...although you were getting signals, as you say, you have to ask yourself whether it would have been worth the hassle that might ensue, especially if there are various circumstances that would make her feel very guilty about having sex. There are certain red flags women should look out for in men, and equally things that should alert men to the fact that a woman might well involve way more trouble than sex with her is worth. Major guilt and uncertainty about having sex being one of them. That is the woman who, even if she consents at the time, might regret it later - at great cost to you. It seems to me that a sensible guy would steer clear of that.

 

Re the drunken state...someone who's a bit tipsy might have their be less inhibited than usual but well aware of what they're doing and consenting to. Bear in mind, though, that if they regret it afterwards that could be a problem for you. If they're so drunk that they're staggering around, slurring and seems maybe one more drink away from falling flat on their face and conking out, they're not in a position to consent to anything. The dilemma there shouldn't be "should I have sex with this person?" It should be "what do I need to do to ensure they don't flake out and choke to death on their own vomit."

[somedude81]

Obviously my words here are being lost and their meanings twisted.

 

When I cautioned that men lie and that there is no point in complaining about it, I was not saying that I condone the act of lying. Neither am I saying that men who do bad things should be absolved of their actions.

 

I am simply trying to make the female readers aware that some men will lie to get sex and that they may forcibly have sex with a woman if the opportunity presents it self.

 

As one poster has realized, even a male friend can become a potential assailant if he has been drinking. I am in no way condoning that act.

[Taramere]

I'm shocked, however, that some people have argued that that is fine with them. That a man should never stop to seek consent, should ignore a woman's attempts to provide for her own safety by stipulating she won't have sex before allowing a man in her space, and that a man should keep pushing for sex until the woman is forced, as a last recourse, to risk an escalation of the violence by threatening a rape charge.

 

I agree. What you described from Guy 1 would fit the definition of assault where I live. With guy 2, it's more ambiguous in that it began with consensual kissing but then he escalated it very quickly beyond a mutual thing. Guy 2 sounds like someone who would follow advice on a PUA board where men were being encouraged to "take control - women like that."

 

Well, you didn't like it - even though from what you've said, initially you had really liked the guy. You didn't like that approach, and a lot of women wouldn't.

 

I think that over and over again we tell men on this board not to make assumptions about what "all" or even "most" women want. That it's important to treat a woman as an individual and not assume, for instance, that she's going to like it "rough" just because his last girlfriend did or because some random women have been swapping views on "liking it rough" on a message board. Those women are entitled to their own sexual preferences - but men are not entitled to assume that those preferences are universal amongst women, and act accordingly.

 

If MandyRandy loves it rough, getting her hair pulled, choked and slapped around - and also loves to rave on about it on a public message board, then that's up to her. Neither you nor I nor any other woman should be taking flack and finding ourselves on the receiving end of unwanted, rough sexual advances just because MandyRandy and her associates happen to like it rough, and happen to like talking noisily about liking it rough.

 

MandyRandy herself is entitled to determine when she likes it rough, and who with. Her expressed preference doesn't mean it's open season for all guys on her. However, on that note, and thinking particularly of some of the amateur porn-writer stuff I've sometimes seen in the sex section...people often swap real life details on a board like this. It's inevitable really...but a bit of caution in how much people reveal about their fantasies, preferences etc is probably wise.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/8455161.stm

 

I thought, by this stage in our society's development, that the courts were sophisticated enough to realise that what a woman fantasises about isn't necessarily what she would want to do in reality. I suppose in the above case, the difference is that she shared those fantasies with a stranger on the Internet about it....a guy she subsequently met.

Edited October 11, 2010 by Taramere

[Floridaman]

Well...although you were getting signals, as you say, you have to ask yourself whether it would have been worth the hassle that might ensue, especially if there are various circumstances that would make her feel very guilty about having sex. There are certain red flags women should look out for in men, and equally things that should alert men to the fact that a woman might well involve way more trouble than sex with her is worth. Major guilt and uncertainty about having sex being one of them. That is the woman who, even if she consents at the time, might regret it later - at great cost to you. It seems to me that a sensible guy would steer clear of that.

 

Re the drunken state...someone who's a bit tipsy might have their be less inhibited than usual but well aware of what they're doing and consenting to. Bear in mind, though, that if they regret it afterwards that could be a problem for you. If they're so drunk that they're staggering around, slurring and seems maybe one more drink away from falling flat on their face and conking out, they're not in a position to consent to anything. The dilemma there shouldn't be "should I have sex with this person?" It should be "what do I need to do to ensure they don't flake out and choke to death on their own vomit."

She wasn't tipsy and couldn't walk, etc. I never saw her drunk.

I thought having too much alcohol may have clouded her judgement.

 

I knew her and knew how firm she was about not letting me consummate with her, though given how intimate we were in other sexual areas, I don't think it would have been a problem.

 

After dumping me (we had been dating for over a year and I was living in her home and taking care of her cat she was on vacation and while I was looking for a job), she later told me she was glad she "didn't make a mistake with me..."

 

I was kind of hurt that she didn't show some appreciation for me looking out for her better interest.

 

In the middle of sexual passion (manual sex only- I was never welcomed inside), she also once told me "I love you..." only to ask if she could "withdraw" that statement a few minutes later.

 

Not much of a moral stance taken there to keep me out of her vagina as she didn't stop me from doing and asking me to do other things well beyond kissing and heavy petting...

Edited October 11, 2010 by Floridaman

[Taramere]

She wasn't tipsy and couldn't walk, etc. I never saw her drunk.

I thought having too much alcohol may have clouded her judgement.

 

I knew her and knew how firm she was about not letting me consummate with her, though given how intimate we were in other sexual areas, I don't think it would have been a problem.

 

After dumping me (we had been dating for over a year and I was living in her home and taking care of her cat she was on vacation and while I was looking for a job), she later told me she was glad she "didn't make a mistake with me..."

 

I was kind of hurt that she didn't show some appreciation for me looking out for her better interest.

 

In the middle of sexual passion (manual sex only- I was never welcomed inside), she also once told me "I love you..." only to ask if she could "withdraw" that statement a few minutes later.

 

Not much of a moral stance taken there to keep me out of her vagina as she didn't stop me from doing and asking me to do other things well beyond kissing and heavy petting...

 

Always interesting hearing "I'm trying to keep my morals" after a half hour or hour's worth of bringing her to climax...

 

Not quite sure how to answer that Florida, other than to say that I'm advocating on here that women have some confidence in their right to expect respectful treatment...and I would advocate the same to you.

 

I suppose that in keeping with the general advice on this thread, you have to be clear about what your personal boundaries are with regard to the kind of behaviour you'll put up with from someone you're seeing. To be prepared to end the relationship if those boundaries are being overstepped all the time, and the person shows no signs of changing.

[Crusoe]

I think you should be more careful about what you call rape.

 

Use of the same word for these kinds of things dilutes the power of the word. As women, I'm sure you want a true forceful violent rape to be harshly condemned by men. You want every man around, when he hears that it has happened, to go grab the perpetrator and throw him in prison for a long time so he doesn't do it to someone else. This is understandable and right. But, when you take these ambiguous situations and call it by the same word as that, you run the risk of crying wolf. In this situation created by today's apparently inflated rape statistics, a man may hear that a woman has been “raped” and think to himself, “yes but was it really rape?” He may not be so eager to throw another guy into prison.

 

In this particular case, you're ready to call a guy a “rapist”-- the same word you would use for a guy that threatened a woman at gunpoint, beat her, and held her down while she screamed. You are completely unwilling apparently to consider what it might have looked like from his point of view but instead choose to demonize him. If that's what you want to do go ahead, but understand that when a man like me reads this, he is going to think twice and maybe three times if he is ever on a jury listening to a woman's testimony. He is going to remember feeling that certain women at least will push the facts farther than seems appropriate.

 

So, I would suggest you be careful with your use of this word. It is supposed to be a heinous crime. It is supposed to be a word that drives men to action in defense of women. Do not weaken its power by using it for every situation it can possibly be stretched to fit.

 

Scott

 

You're right, rape is not a word to bandy around lightly. I've had it thrown at me by my spiteful ex, purely so she could get all the pity and look justified in cheating and leaving me. It's not a nice experience and fella's do come rushing round, not to drag you to prison but to take the law into their own hands.

 

You're also correct that rape is a heinous crime, but there are many forms of rape.

 

You know, some men steal with violence, some use fear, some use charm, lies and deception, some sneak in a window when nobody is looking and others are opportunists who don't actually go out to steal, but can't resist that open till and turned back. Which ever way it's done it's all theft, taking without consent.

[threebyfate]

The power of the word "rape" has been mitigated by rapists, would-be rapists and enablers of crimes against women. These individuals can be men or women. It's disturbing, really disturbing.

[tami-chan]

I felt you adopted a blame the victim mentality. And yes, I am self-reflective and have taken a hard look at my actions. I am willing to admit I make mistakes and take responsibility for my share of the blame here. This does not excuse, however, these men's actions. They were as much in the wrong as I was, and I would argue, easily even more. I am also willing to risk public humiliation to discuss this topic and be honest about my experiences.

 

That's the problem about "feelings", sometimes, it is just not based on facts. NOWHERE did I EVER say those men who were drunk are not accountable for these actions. They are. In my opinion ANYBODY who cannot handle their alcohol, must NOT drink, obviously they couldn't-and they need to answer to that and the results of that-in this particular situation, imposing themselves on you.

 

3 claimed he had to go to the washroom and since he was someone I considered a friend, I let him in.

 

He was drunk, right? after your experiences with drunk guys, why did you take the risk?

 

I should have known he was lying about that and accept that men lie and are allowed to lie and there is nothing wrong about it

 

No, you should have known that drunk people have diminished capacity to to make good judgment calls and depressed inhibition. I think that is common knowledge.

 

Yes, I must be the one to blame. These men shouldn't be held accountable for their actions. Nor should we expect them to respect their word or listen to what a woman is saying and doing.

 

Not one... but part of the blame. All parties are accountable for their actions.

 

While I absolutely agree that women are responsible for protecting themselves, I also think we should educate men about rape and about how to recognize when they are putting themselves at risk for rape accusations. Rape is a societal problem, not a "women's" problem.

 

I have said practically the same things from past posts. So we agree.

Edited October 11, 2010 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Tony]

Some of the responses in this thread have been shocking, insulting and unkind. I think we need to move on as I'm sure the OP has had sufficient responses. Thank you for participating.