He didn't pay

[kdark]

Said it before and I'll say it again. I've never ran into trouble going dutch. Paying the bill is for special occasions. And I've seen no connection between going dutch and not getting a second date result for me.

Maybe its just you older gen that pitches a fit over this?

 

I have a similar experience whenever I date. I usually get a negative reaction whenever I've tried to foot the entire bill. But like you, I think it's a combination of a generation gap and the type of women I choose to go on dates with.

 

I'm not a fan of going dutch, and I'm not a fan of one party paying for all expenses. Whenever I go on a date, I just do whatever flows naturally and keeps the date on a positive note. The women I choose to date are usually very modern and don't have a problem paying there way for things, so when a girl offers, I take her offer seriously. I can't stand women who go for their purse to not seem cheap but secretly want the guy to take control and pay for her meal. To me that's dishonest and shows that you can't communicate your needs and wants effectively, which are two things that I value greatly in people.

[sanskrit]

When women ask to be treated "equally," it's a fight for rights that have been denied them.

 

When men ask to be treated equally, they aren't gentlemen, have poor character, are cheap, put on a list of "neanderthals" in the thread yadda yadda. Vile...

 

and all too familiar.

 

Life is not a "cafeteria plan" ladies (and men who haven't woken up yet or still seeking mama's approval), you can't go down the line and say "Ooo I'll have that affirmative action at work, I'll have that maternity job protection, and O yes, do give me a serving of that 'he always pays' also. Yummy!"

 

I LOVE getting free things, and the fact that women cling to outmoded custom is to be expected, that men seeking female approval generally puff up their "I'm such a gentleman! please like me!" chests is to be expected also. But let's do see it for exactly what it is.

 

I have always paid for early dates, and during periods of dating several women from internet sites, have noticed this costs me about $500 per month. So I guess the average woman internet dating gets a $500 windfall every month. So that makes for a $1000 dollar monthly differential between the "golden vagina club," and the "poor penis club." But I'm sure that sounds fair to those who benefit from the "gentleman tax."

 

The level of outright privileged attitude in this thread and other such threads that always come up on these types of forums, together with life experience is giving me pause, though, and am considering getting more stingy in my largesse.

 

If dating a woman that I know to be a traditional woman, a chaste woman who conducts herself as a lady, then the gentleman tax has little sting. But is that what we are getting today? I have watched, MANY times, as women go out with men, allow them to pay, then call me over that same night because wine another man bought got them in the mood. I have seen my friends capitalize on another man's wallet in this way DOZENS of times. I have undoubtedly been the victim of this little scam myself. There's just no way for a man to know. Yet we keep playing this ruse.

 

Woggle was dead on, women don't want equality, they want the benefits of a modern, enlightened society while retaining the advantages of the past. That sums it up, and there's really no other way of looking at it despite all the shaming and finger-pointing.

 

One way I have changed is that on early dates, if I get one whiff of an attitude that my paying is an obligation in her eyes, and her privilege, she isn't getting asked out again. Have been down the "princess road" too often in my life.

 

And finally, this thread would never have been made if OP's date was hot enough, charming enough, etc. to avoid the stigma of not paying the "gentleman tax." So in essence it could be renamed the "not so hot gentleman's tax." Brilliant.

[donnamaybe]

So that makes for a $1000 dollar monthly differential between the "golden vagina club," and the "poor penis club."

Now THIS is some funny shyte!

 

But, please, take note that your post only applies to SOME women. Not all of us.

[TaurusTerp]

Now THIS is some funny shyte!

 

But, please, take note that your post only applies to SOME women. Not all of us.

 

From the sounds of it, I'd say it applies to any woman who wants equal opportunities for women but also wants dates paid for.

[Jannah]

nope. As a member of the "older generation," ( ) i would definitely have offered to split the cost of the meal.

 

That said, it would bother me if the man felt he had to itemize the bill down to the last cent. that is the part of this guy's behavior that would probably make me decline a second date.

 

+1........

[sanskrit]

But, please, take note that your post only applies to SOME women. Not all of us.

 

The problem is that during early dating, there's no way to know what one is dealing with, the "Lady or the Tramp." Back in the day when the custom had social merit, there were better odds one was dealing with the "Lady" and the chance one was actually dealing with the "Tramp" was a reasonable risk to undertake. Today, one's date could go straight from the date to shooting 5 jaeger bombs to a ONS with a cocaine dealer, and she is certainly not going to clue you in, she will keep hoovering up gullible men's cash.

 

No sane man (rather none I know) would pay for a date with a woman who has slept with other men that very week out of some noblesse oblige because there is no "noblessa" involved There are certain preconceived notions in the "man pays" tradition that no longer exist in the modern social world. The gentleman tax is merely a socially institutionalized embodiment of cuckoldry theory in evolutionary psychology writ large.

[donnamaybe]

From the sounds of it, I'd say it applies to any woman who wants equal opportunities for women but also wants dates paid for.

But when someone makes a statement such as "women don't want equality, they want the benefits of a modern, enlightened society while retaining the advantages of the past," that is being ascribed to women as a whole.

 

Only SOME women are like that. I would agree that nearly every woman in America expects equality now, but there are only SOME women who want to have their equality when it's convenient, yet toss the equality notion aside when it suits their wants.

[donnamaybe]

The problem is that during early dating, there's no way to know what one is dealing with, the "Lady or the Tramp."

And there is also no way for a woman to know if she's dealing with a gentleman (whether he pulls out a fat wallet or NOT) or a jackass. A guy with a hidden agenda could easily blur a gullible woman's awareness of his true intentions by tossing $$ around.

 

ANOTHER good reason for there to not be these "men always pay" rules.

[kdark]

The problem is that during early dating, there's no way to know what one is dealing with, the "Lady or the Tramp." Back in the day when the custom had social merit, there were better odds one was dealing with the "Lady" and the chance one was actually dealing with the "Tramp" was a reasonable risk to undertake. Today, one's date could go straight from the date to shooting 5 jaeger bombs to a ONS with a cocaine dealer, and she is certainly not going to clue you in, she will keep hoovering up gullible men's cash.

 

No sane man (rather none I know) would pay for a date with a woman who has slept with other men that very week out of some noblesse oblige because there is no "noblessa" involved There are certain preconceived notions in the "man pays" tradition that no longer exist in the modern social world. The gentleman tax is merely a socially institutionalized embodiment of cuckoldry theory in evolutionary psychology writ large.

 

Sounds like you need to get a better feel for a persons personality before forking over cash to spend time with them. Just like women who sleep with a guy too early before finding out who they are.

[jerbear]

ANOTHER good reason for there to not be these "men always pay" rules.

 

So what are you doing this friday night? I want a free meal.

 

I jest.:lmao:

[sanskrit]

But when someone makes a statement such as "women don't want equality, they want the benefits of a modern, enlightened society while retaining the advantages of the past," that is being ascribed to women as a whole.

 

No, there are implicit qualifiers such as "women who expect equality yet still expect men to pay" that should be readily understood. I know that there are many exceptions. Have dated women who were not "transactionally" stunted in this way, but far more who would run to an internet forum and make a thread or set up a "he's cheap" conference call with all her friends if I ever didn't pay for a first date.

[donnamaybe]

So what are you doing this friday night? I want a free meal.

Having dinner out with my sweety. I'll be buying because he did the last time.

 

I jest.:lmao:

I know.

[sanskrit]

Sounds like you need to get a better feel for a persons personality before forking over cash to spend time with them.

 

Sounds like you need to describe exactly how one "gets a better feel" for someone before the very first date. They sure aren't going to volunteer such things on a phone call or in an Email:

 

"Hey Internet Dater Man,

 

Just wanted to let you know how excited I am for our first date at "Tres Chica!" I will need to leave at 10PM sharp, though, to get over to my FWB Julio's house to give him his nightly BJ, hope this is cool with you.

 

Until the magic evening!

 

Unicornlurvwavessexxxxygirl74"

 

Sorry, no.

[donnamaybe]

Sounds like you need to describe exactly how one "gets a better feel" for someone before the very first date. They sure aren't going to volunteer such things on a phone call or in an Email:

 

"Hey Internet Dater Man,

 

Just wanted to let you know how excited I am for our first date at "Tres Chica!" I will need to leave at 10PM sharp, though, to get over to my FWB Julio's house to give him his nightly BJ, hope this is cool with you.

 

Until the magic evening!

 

Unicornlurvwavessexxxxygirl74"

 

Sorry, no.

You're funny.

[kdark]

Sounds like you need to describe exactly how one "gets a better feel" for someone before the very first date. They sure aren't going to volunteer such things on a phone call or in an Email:

 

"Hey Internet Dater Man,

 

Just wanted to let you know how excited I am for our first date at "Tres Chica!" I will need to leave at 10PM sharp, though, to get over to my FWB Julio's house to give him his nightly BJ, hope this is cool with you.

 

Until the magic evening!

 

Unicornlurvwavessexxxxygirl74"

 

Sorry, no.

 

If you have such a problem paying for women who exhibit that behavior, don't date on the internet. Or go dutch. Or date people that come with reccomendations from friends or family. Or get to know a woman before you go on a date with her.

 

It's not that hard.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Not paying for the date because dutch was in the cards is quite different than a person being stingy.

How he reacted with breaking it down to the cents should be a predictor of future behavior. IMO... as well as the fact that he never offered..

I have like 6.00 in change sitting in my ashtray in the car.. most people do..

Counting cents isn't a normal thing to do on a date..

Launching in this case isn't about the OP expecting him to pay.. but more along the lines on that she just learned how stingy he is with pennies..

If he had just thrown down half plus some extra to cover any cents and not split the bill exactly down the middle he wouldn't have looked as bad...

If he acts cheap on a first date he isn't going to get more generous as the dating process goes on.

 

C'mon... this is OG! The guy might have offered to pay 3 times and she just didn't mention it.

 

Always consider the source!

 

Also... launch? Seriously? It makes little to no contextual sense.... and often looks like you just misspelled lunch.

 

There are cheap people out there.. there are also people out there who are cheap and really don't care how other people perceive them..

I've never been one of those people..

I've always been generous to a fault, I tip extremely well 25%-50% no matter the service, and I do like to avoid the cheap public look..

I would never let myself look cheap in public, I always pick up the tabs on business meals when I'm the customer and should be catered to.

In dating.. the same thing.. I'm supposed to be looking good.. putting my best foot forward and be damned if I would let 25.00 stop that from happening.

 

That's what I primarily take issue with. It's all for appearances. Acting generous is just that an act. It's so others perceive you as giving.

 

I'm very generous to people I care about and those who are in need.

 

What's the point of tipping well on poor service? It defeats the purpose of tipping in the first place.

[donnamaybe]

That's what I primarily take issue with. It's all for appearances. Acting generous is just that an act. It's so others perceive you as giving.

 

I'm very generous to people I care about and those who are in need.

 

What's the point of tipping well on poor service? It defeats the purpose of tipping in the first place.

I agree with all of this. In fact, I was thinking about the whole "opening car doors" thing in this vein. I mean, seriously - men who run around to the other side of a car to hold a door open for a woman on early dates - do they REALLY keep doing that after 20 years of marriage? Doubt it. It's a show - some kind of purposeful attempt at proving how gentlemanly someone is. Now when it comes to going to the store, and it's raining - my guy knows it takes some time for me to do my hair so it looks nice. If it's really crummy out, he'll drop me off at the door and park the car, and then do the reverse when we're leaving. HOWEVER, I do that for my mom due to her age when I take her places so she won't have to make the walk. I would also do that for anyone else merely because of bad weather because there is no reason we should ALL get wet, right? If I'm the one driving, there's no way around it for me. Why make everyone suffer the weather just because I have to?

 

Again, common courtesy for ALL. NOT just women.

 

Oh, and I will tip, even for sub-par service, but not as much. The amount of the tip is dependant on the service level.

[sanskrit]

If you have such a problem paying for women who exhibit that behavior, don't date on the internet. Or go dutch. Or date people that come with reccomendations from friends or family. Or get to know a woman before you go on a date with her.

 

It's not that hard.

 

1. You repeat in your last sentence exactly what you said before, ignoring my question as to -how- one goes about this.

 

2. The point of dating someone is to get to know them. One may know a few things about someone before dating, or think one does, but it takes lots of time and dates to even begin to truly know someone. In a world where mores have changed drastically, and women earn money, why should the man shoulder all the "getting to know you" expense? Why a "gentleman tax?"

 

3. My mother has recommended me dating some of the worst women imaginable because "she seems so nice." Personal introductions no longer carry as much weight as they once did. My girlfriend's friend she sets me up with is just as likely to be giving Julio those nightly BJs. I don't mind that, I may be getting a BJ from someone else that very night myself, but why... should... I... pay?

 

4. Going dutch is the exact controversy in this thread. Do so on early dates, and you will be labelled "cheap," "ungentlemanly," etc. It's plain social blackmail, and archaic to boot.

[Art_Critic]

He never offered to pay

 

C'mon... this is OG! The guy might have offered to pay 3 times and she just didn't mention it.

 

Always consider the source!

 

Also... launch? Seriously? It makes little to no contextual sense.... and often looks like you just misspelled lunch.

 

 

 

That's what I primarily take issue with. It's all for appearances. Acting generous is just that an act. It's so others perceive you as giving.

 

I'm very generous to people I care about and those who are in need.

 

What's the point of tipping well on poor service? It defeats the purpose of tipping in the first place.

 

Actually I am considering the source.. in her OP she mentioned that he didn't offer to pay.

It helps to read the first post in the thread.

 

The rest of what you wrote I really don;t feel like commenting on just becuase it isn't worth it..

I tip good all the time.. you don't.. big deal...

[Untouchable_Fire]

I agree with all of this. In fact, I was thinking about the whole "opening car doors" thing in this vein. I mean, seriously - men who run around to the other side of a car to hold a door open for a woman on early dates - do they REALLY keep doing that after 20 years of marriage? Doubt it. It's a show - some kind of purposeful attempt at proving how gentlemanly someone is. Now when it comes to going to the store, and it's raining - my guy knows it takes some time for me to do my hair so it looks nice. If it's really crummy out, he'll drop me off at the door and park the car, and then do the reverse when we're leaving. HOWEVER, I do that for my mom due to her age when I take her places so she won't have to make the walk. I would also do that for anyone else merely because of bad weather because there is no reason we should ALL get wet, right? If I'm the one driving, there's no way around it for me. Why make everyone suffer the weather just because I have to?

Again, common courtesy for ALL. NOT just women.

Oh, and I will tip, even for sub-par service, but not as much. The amount of the tip is dependant on the service level.

 

Yeah... bad service get's 10%, adequate 15%, good 20%, amazing 25%, mind blowing 30%... and so on.

 

I also tip really high when the waiter or waitress fixes issues with the meal, or saves me money.

 

I find it completely pointless that there is so much emphasis on fakeness in dating.

 

Actually I am considering the source.. in her OP she mentioned that he didn't offer to pay.

It helps to read the first post in the thread.

The rest of what you wrote I really don;t feel like commenting on just becuase it isn't worth it..

I tip good all the time.. you don't.. big deal...

 

I suppose the next time I get terrible service because the staff thinks it won't affect the tip... I will have you to thank.

 

I'm saying there is a gap between perception and reality with OP.

[Stung]

I only managed to wade through the first six or so pages of this debacle--as usual, this thread has spun out of control with a lot of extremism being thrown around.

 

I guess I occupy something of a middle ground. While there are many things I don't always agree with Mad Max about, I too was raised with the simple precept that whoever asks for the other person's company, should pay the tab when it comes. I operate on that principle in my friendships, too, as a general rule. Now, I have asked people out in the past a few times, and when I did I always offered to pay, as I agree that is common courtesy--although I admit I took special note of the fellows who refused my gesture, and said they would let me pay next time. This had nothing to do with the money, and everything to do with intent. I was never a big multi-dater, and while I experimented with doing the approaching and asking out I found that I preferred to be approached, I liked it when a man I knew at least to some degree had zeroed in on me specifically and I was being wooed. If we'd been flirtatious for some time until finally I asked HIM out, if he rejected my money and paid himself it let me know that he was still going to make some effort to woo me, that he wasn't just along for the ride.

 

As for all the other stuff--I have gone dutch on first dates before, usually when it was someone I was set up with or was just meeting from online and had no special feelings about yet. It was never a dealbreaker as a general rule, although if the other person sat and tabulated it down to the exact penny, that would definitely have been a turn off as it would have come off as cheap and petty. Not attractive qualities from a man or a woman.

 

It's not that common in my area/circle to pull out chairs, open car doors, etc., and I certainly don't miss it. I agree that whoever gets to the door first, should hold it open for the person behind them. Sometimes my husband holds a door open for me, sometimes I hold one open for him. I hold the door open for anybody behind me, usually. Honestly I think I would feel awkward if someone was hovering around me trying to pull my chairs out or open my doors just ahead of me all the time, it seems like they'd be in the way more than anything. I had a boyfriend who would pull my chair out and I was always afraid I would have a spazz moment and miss it with my butt . My husband does open car doors for me sometimes, i.e. if my arms are full of bags or it is raining and I am trying to protect my clothing.

 

This is not to say I don't appreciate a gentleman, I just don't define him by what he does with my chair. My husband calls me when he says he's going to, rubs my back when I have sore muscles or a headache, sometimes he cooks me dinner (honestly he is a better cook than I am), he brings me flowers when I am stressed out. I have an old ankle injury and he always positions himself so I can put my hand on his shoulder or elbow if we're hiking and there's a rocky downslope I'm a little worried about. The guy I dated who always pulled my chair out wasn't half so sweet to me.

[Mad Max]

I only managed to wade through the first six or so pages of this debacle--as usual, this thread has spun out of control with a lot of extremism being thrown around.

 

I guess I occupy something of a middle ground. While there are many things I don't always agree with Mad Max about, I too was raised with the simple precept that whoever asks for the other person's company, should pay the tab when it comes. I operate on that principle in my friendships, too, as a general rule. Now, I have asked people out in the past a few times, and when I did I always offered to pay, as I agree that is common courtesy--although I admit I took special note of the fellows who refused my gesture, and said they would let me pay next time. This had nothing to do with the money, and everything to do with intent. I was never a big multi-dater, and while I experimented with doing the approaching and asking out I found that I preferred to be approached, I liked it when a man I knew at least to some degree had zeroed in on me specifically and I was being wooed. If we'd been flirtatious for some time until finally I asked HIM out, if he rejected my money and paid himself it let me know that he was still going to make some effort to woo me, that he wasn't just along for the ride.

 

As for all the other stuff--I have gone dutch on first dates before, usually when it was someone I was set up with or was just meeting from online and had no special feelings about yet. It was never a dealbreaker as a general rule, although if the other person sat and tabulated it down to the exact penny, that would definitely have been a turn off as it would have come off as cheap and petty. Not attractive qualities from a man or a woman.

 

It's not that common in my area/circle to pull out chairs, open car doors, etc., and I certainly don't miss it. I agree that whoever gets to the door first, should hold it open for the person behind them. Sometimes my husband holds a door open for me, sometimes I hold one open for him. I hold the door open for anybody behind me, usually. Honestly I think I would feel awkward if someone was hovering around me trying to pull my chairs out or open my doors just ahead of me all the time, it seems like they'd be in the way more than anything. I had a boyfriend who would pull my chair out and I was always afraid I would have a spazz moment and miss it with my butt . My husband does open car doors for me sometimes, i.e. if my arms are full of bags or it is raining and I am trying to protect my clothing.

 

This is not to say I don't appreciate a gentleman, I just don't define him by what he does with my chair. My husband calls me when he says he's going to, rubs my back when I have sore muscles or a headache, sometimes he cooks me dinner (honestly he is a better cook than I am), he brings me flowers when I am stressed out. I have an old ankle injury and he always positions himself so I can put my hand on his shoulder or elbow if we're hiking and there's a rocky downslope I'm a little worried about. The guy I dated who always pulled my chair out wasn't half so sweet to me.

 

 

Yep, same goes with friendships too. But, I find it amusing that since some posters are siding with the guys(some of which actually women), the posters from the first few pages that implied we are classless, sexist, and other insults are no where to be found.

[donnamaybe]

Yep, same goes with friendships too. But, I find it amusing that since some posters are siding with the guys(some of which actually women), the posters from the first few pages that implied we are classless, sexist, and other insults are no where to be found.

Thanks a lot MM! Now I'll be descended upon by the masses.

[Mad Max]

Thanks a lot MM! Now I'll be descended upon by the masses.

 

 

They can say whatever they want. I'm tired of defending myself in this thread. These people shouldn't take themselves seriously because lord knows I don't.

[donnamaybe]

They can say whatever they want. I'm tired of defending myself in this thread. These people shouldn't take themselves seriously because lord knows I don't.

Lighten up, man, I was just kidding!