Silly_Girl Posted October 4, 2010 Posted October 4, 2010 I've seen many posters on this board state their MM 'has been advised to' do X, or Y, or Z... i.e. to stay with their wife, to leave with their wife, to stay x amount of years, not to see this person or that. Now, my counselling is pretty low-level, in that I don't have any major issues currently, just some heavy stuff in my past and life is a bit of a challenge at times and I wanted to do better. So essentially, I'm safe, and I'm functioning and I'm being a good parent and holding down my job. So perhaps I'm not in a position to comment. It just surprises me that counsellors can (appear to) be so very descriptive. Can anyone shed some light on this for me? Ta muchly.
Ellin Posted October 4, 2010 Posted October 4, 2010 Counsellors are supposed to help you figure out what you feel and want and help you work through your problems, not tell you what to do.
MorningCoffee Posted October 4, 2010 Posted October 4, 2010 I've seen many posters on this board state their MM 'has been advised to' do X, or Y, or Z... i.e. to stay with their wife, to leave with their wife, to stay x amount of years, not to see this person or that. Now, my counselling is pretty low-level, in that I don't have any major issues currently, just some heavy stuff in my past and life is a bit of a challenge at times and I wanted to do better. So essentially, I'm safe, and I'm functioning and I'm being a good parent and holding down my job. So perhaps I'm not in a position to comment. It just surprises me that counsellors can (appear to) be so very descriptive. Can anyone shed some light on this for me? Ta muchly. In my experience, it is not so much that they prescribe what course of action to take, but instead help explore what your issues are, and then provide a safe person with whom to talk over "what if" scenarios and occasionally offer some guidance on HOW to do this or HOW to avoid that. This has been helpful to me when coming from a person who (a) has a professional b.s. detector as far as what I am saying or thinking and (b) has gotten to know me well and can help keep me from doing things that may harm me or be more than I can handle at the time. But I have never had a counselor direct me. Example: years ago my marriage was in trouble. We had separated, and it was so volatile that, if we were in each other's presence, I never knew if WWIII was about to erupt or instead we'd end up laughing and even once in a while have sex. My counselor did not say "you should stay with your wife, and reconcile." What the counselor said was "you and your wife appear to still have a fair amount of goodwill towards each other." That was certainly not how it felt. But over time, we did work it out and reconcile and stayed together happily for another couple decades (till she passed away). I think counselors are more objective observers and commentators who can help us find our own way. And the good ones do not let you get away with too much b.s.
Author Silly_Girl Posted October 4, 2010 Author Posted October 4, 2010 My counsellor asks 'why?' quite a lot and she's helped me cope with a couple of workplace issues, suggested techniques, but when it was very bad, for example, she didn't suggest I leave. She did ask me if I wanted to, which I didn't. It just rings an alarm bell when I read it. When I in a violent R and we had couples counselling, she only suggested that if things didn't work out, maybe we should talk about living apart/splitting up. Never told us what to do. I think I'm overthinking....
Author Silly_Girl Posted October 4, 2010 Author Posted October 4, 2010 In my experience, it is not so much that they prescribe what course of action to take, but instead help explore what your issues are, and then provide a safe person with whom to talk over "what if" scenarios and occasionally offer some guidance on HOW to do this or HOW to avoid that. MC - you've hit on my absolute favourite part of counselling. By talking over what happens next time my boss does X, or my mother does Y, I know exactly what to do and how to behave to give myself least grief. It's so clever. Took me a couple of times to notice how powerful that was. It's as though I almost had a script ready, without realising it. Not one the counsellor had given me, but one I had written when I was not on the spot, and was feeling calm and in a safe, non-judgemental environment. I'm considering stopping my counselling soon, but I shall miss it!!! But yes, getting back to my original post, you do state it's not a prescription as to action, they simply assist us to navigate our way through.
lilbunny Posted October 4, 2010 Posted October 4, 2010 My counsellor asks 'why?' quite a lot and she's helped me cope with a couple of workplace issues, suggested techniques, but when it was very bad, for example, she didn't suggest I leave. She did ask me if I wanted to, which I didn't. It just rings an alarm bell when I read it. When I in a violent R and we had couples counselling, she only suggested that if things didn't work out, maybe we should talk about living apart/splitting up. Never told us what to do. I think I'm overthinking.... Not at all SG I think that it would go against the whole ethos of conselling to direct people as to what they should or should not do. I raised a similar thing in a thread where someone stated their partner's psychiatrist or psychologist had told them to leave etc. Asking why is encouraging you to explore your feelings and thoughts and reach your own conclusions.
Snowflower Posted October 4, 2010 Posted October 4, 2010 I've seen many posters on this board state their MM 'has been advised to' do X, or Y, or Z... i.e. to stay with their wife, to leave with their wife, to stay x amount of years, not to see this person or that. I've wondered about this same thing when it is posted that the MM is advised by the counselor to do some specific action. Just like you mention above. I always figured the original message was either misconstrued very badly by the patient (MM) or it is what they are telling their AP--and not necessarily the truth of what is being discussed in the counseling sessions. I think it is against the ethics of the profession to recommend a specific course of action to the patient. What if the specific course of action suggested by the counselor actually proved detrimental to the patient? It could open up all sorts of potential for liability. Counseling is supposed to be a sounding board or an objective ear when you (general you) need to figure out a situation. Friends and family members might be well meaning but they might also be subjective or biased. Good for you, SG, that you feel that you are moving past the need for much more counseling.
seren Posted October 5, 2010 Posted October 5, 2010 If a counsellor suggests or tells you what to do, it would be very unprofessional and not what I recognise as counselling. A counsellor who does this is guilty of using his or her personal viewpoint and is directing rather than guiding. Counselling is/ should be about creating an environment that enables people to explore issues, to talk aloud and to help them to move onto the next stage, when the person is comfortable or has worked through each stage. It is quite a prescriotive process and not ad hoc, in that way, progress can be monitored as people reach closure or acceptance of a particular stage. I note that counselling in the UK isn't all that commonplace, why? I don't really know, but I suspect we (UK we) aren't as comfortable with talking about our problems and can view counselling with suspicion. I counsel rape and sexual abuse survivors, yet never, well rarely mention the actual assault, others, who have taken a short counselling course often just go straight for it, open cans of worms and create a whole world of pain and chaos they aren't eqiupped to deal with. So, counsellors should never direct but provide opportunities and help guide back to the path where issues can be freely raised, discussed and an agreed plan to deal with them produced.
SidLyon Posted October 5, 2010 Posted October 5, 2010 I always figured the original message was either misconstrued very badly by the patient (MM) or it is what they are telling their AP--and not necessarily the truth of what is being discussed in the counseling sessions. This is what I often think too. Sometimes an AP will say the MM's counselor said that the MM/his mother/his BW (or whoever) has "whatever" psychological disorder. I always thought it was a no-no to even make diagnoses of the client (unless they are a properly qualified psychiatrist) let alone a person they haven't even seen. Maybe it's different here in Aus.
fooled once Posted October 5, 2010 Posted October 5, 2010 I've seen many posters on this board state their MM 'has been advised to' do X, or Y, or Z... i.e. to stay with their wife, to leave with their wife, to stay x amount of years, not to see this person or that. Now, my counselling is pretty low-level, in that I don't have any major issues currently, just some heavy stuff in my past and life is a bit of a challenge at times and I wanted to do better. So essentially, I'm safe, and I'm functioning and I'm being a good parent and holding down my job. So perhaps I'm not in a position to comment. It just surprises me that counsellors can (appear to) be so very descriptive. Can anyone shed some light on this for me? Ta muchly. My H and I went to counseling right after we married - in order to deal with step life. I prefer not to discuss it on the boards since the last time I discussed going to counseling and also seeking advice on-line, I was ridiculed by a certain poster (OWoman) for seeking the online advice. Funny how she came to this site to get advice though Anyway, PM me if interested. We learned a lot by going (and by my going online to a community for step parents) and we are 12+ years married and all the kids are finally grown and we are doing great
Fieldsofgold Posted October 5, 2010 Posted October 5, 2010 This is what I often think too. Sometimes an AP will say the MM's counselor said that the MM/his mother/his BW (or whoever) has "whatever" psychological disorder. I always thought it was a no-no to even make diagnoses of the client (unless they are a properly qualified psychiatrist) let alone a person they haven't even seen. Maybe it's different here in Aus. Totally agree with this. I have never heard a professional counselor diagnose anyone other than -possibly- the patient. I have also wondered when people post that the counselor told them to do thus and such. I have NEVER had a counselor tell me what I needed to do, even when I desperately wanted them to! I do like on-line forums in part because people say, "you should do this," or "you could do that." They give creative ways of handling a situation. Then I can sift through and decide for myself which ones, if any, seem right for me.
Hazyhead Posted October 5, 2010 Posted October 5, 2010 My counsellor was very much 'And how does that make you feel?' But, I think I didn't progress too well with mine and never really got very far. Maybe I didn't give it long enough but I'd certainly look to going back, or finding another. Hell, I think sometimes I'd like to be told what to do!
Author Silly_Girl Posted October 5, 2010 Author Posted October 5, 2010 My counsellor was very much 'And how does that make you feel?' But, I think I didn't progress too well with mine and never really got very far. Maybe I didn't give it long enough but I'd certainly look to going back, or finding another. Hell, I think sometimes I'd like to be told what to do! That's really reminded me of my first couple of sessions Hazy. I kept being asked that and it took practice for me to be able to answer it. I was so busy rationalising and reasoning and balancing, I was forgetting how I was FEELING. Used to drive me crazy at first!!!
Hazyhead Posted October 5, 2010 Posted October 5, 2010 That's really reminded me of my first couple of sessions Hazy. I kept being asked that and it took practice for me to be able to answer it. I was so busy rationalising and reasoning and balancing, I was forgetting how I was FEELING. Used to drive me crazy at first!!! Same! I wanted to say 'Makes me feel frickin' p###ed at the same question over and over. I'M FINE!' Clearly that wasn't true though. I should haul my ass back there
lilbunny Posted October 5, 2010 Posted October 5, 2010 This is what I often think too. Sometimes an AP will say the MM's counselor said that the MM/his mother/his BW (or whoever) has "whatever" psychological disorder. I always thought it was a no-no to even make diagnoses of the client (unless they are a properly qualified psychiatrist) let alone a person they haven't even seen. Maybe it's different here in Aus. In the UK it would be inappropriate for a counsellor to make a diagnosis of the person they are working with, much less someone they have never spoken to. Not even a psychiatrist would be able bo assign a condition to someone they hadn't assessed and would never, ever do so. I take these things with a pinch of salt.
Owl Posted October 5, 2010 Posted October 5, 2010 Our marriage counselor, back when we were dealing with the aftermath of my wife's EA, gave us a decent bit of "homework". -Provided us with a book, told us to come up with a plan on how to read it together. We ended up reading it out loud to each other a chapter at night before bed. -Instructed us to set specific times to discuss the relationship/affair...and specific ways to end the conversation, track them, and start them back up at the next appointed time. -Gave some pretty specific instructions on how to rebuild the connection between us (take a date night every week, with some do/do nots during those nights). So I'd say that sometimes they can get into giving some specific directions or actions that you should take...but...when he did that he also provided some very good understanding on WHY all of this should be done, what the benefits should be, etc... I would agree that often on LS we see cases where it really looks like someone uses their counselor's "instructions" as nothing more than a scapegoat to allow them to continue their actions.
Star_Bright Posted October 5, 2010 Posted October 5, 2010 I've wondered about this same thing when it is posted that the MM is advised by the counselor to do some specific action. Just like you mention above. I always figured the original message was either misconstrued very badly by the patient (MM) or it is what they are telling their AP--and not necessarily the truth of what is being discussed in the counseling sessions. I think it is against the ethics of the profession to recommend a specific course of action to the patient. What if the specific course of action suggested by the counselor actually proved detrimental to the patient? It could open up all sorts of potential for liability. Counseling is supposed to be a sounding board or an objective ear when you (general you) need to figure out a situation. Friends and family members might be well meaning but they might also be subjective or biased. Good for you, SG, that you feel that you are moving past the need for much more counseling. Apparently (I'm not there of course), MM's counselor won't come out and say "I think you should stay married" but she'll say "You and your wife have a long history together." "Have you considered how expensive a divorce will be?" And other things that clearly point him in that direction. And when he tells the counselor things he's considering, she'll either say "I think that's a good idea" or, if she doesn't think it's a good idea, she won't say that, but instead she'll say "Have you considered this...?" about that idea. I think most counselors have a bias towards the marriage staying together-- and that makes sense to me, history, stable bond, not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, etc. So most all of MM's counselor's "suggestions", i.e., pointing him in a certain way with her questions and probing, have been for him to stay married. He told me that after the last session she said "I know you're going to do the right thing." I think that's a strange thing for a counselor to say. He said said "I will" and he knew she was referring to staying married but he was thinking something else, leaving for me, is the "right thing." Who knows, he could be blowing smoke up my butt, like most people here tell me he's doing.
2sure Posted October 5, 2010 Posted October 5, 2010 The MC husband and I went to , both together and individually was also a divorce mediator. He never ever ever told either one of what to do regarding decisions. In fact, I cannot imagine any counselor doing that. I also do not think a professional would attempt to diagnose someone he or she had not counseled. I mean, those two scenarios dont even sound ethical. I think a lot of people say "My counselor says or my counselor told me "...simply to provide backup that cannot be verified.
Snowflower Posted October 5, 2010 Posted October 5, 2010 Apparently (I'm not there of course), MM's counselor won't come out and say "I think you should stay married" but she'll say "You and your wife have a long history together." "Have you considered how expensive a divorce will be?" And other things that clearly point him in that direction. And when he tells the counselor things he's considering, she'll either say "I think that's a good idea" or, if she doesn't think it's a good idea, she won't say that, but instead she'll say "Have you considered this...?" about that idea. I think most counselors have a bias towards the marriage staying together-- and that makes sense to me, history, stable bond, not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, etc. So most all of MM's counselor's "suggestions", i.e., pointing him in a certain way with her questions and probing, have been for him to stay married. He told me that after the last session she said "I know you're going to do the right thing." I think that's a strange thing for a counselor to say. He said said "I will" and he knew she was referring to staying married but he was thinking something else, leaving for me, is the "right thing." Who knows, he could be blowing smoke up my butt, like most people here tell me he's doing. One question: is your MM counselor also a marriage counselor OR is this counselor counseling both your MM and his W? If so, that could explain any "bias" but I really don't think the counselor is trying to coerce your MM to do anything but just offer a reality check. Okay, reading what you write here as an objective bystander...it sounds like the counselor is trying to get the MM to consider all the options. Really, I think the role of a counselor is to be a good sounding board for their patient. So, when the counselor (as you are describing above and remember you are hearing it filtered through your MM-unless you are attending the counseling session with him) says to him to consider the expense of divorce or the years he has spent in the marriage, to me it sounds like he is just being asked to consider these things. And your MM should consider them as factors in his decision. NOT to stay in the marriage necessarily but he should face facts that divorce IS expensive and he DID spend a lot of years with his wife. Likely, that is what the counselor is trying to get him to see. The counselor might also be asking him to consider what it will be like when he leaves his marriage--to offer the balanced viewpoint. Not directing him to do one thing or the other but to consider all the options and different possibilities. See the difference? Again, that is just my take based on your post. A brief snippet from my own counseling after my husband's affair: I/we got on the topic of me divorcing my husband. My counselor asked me all the objective questions, what would you do? Divorce is a complicated process, you know. Would you be lonely? Would you move away? What about your children, how would they feel? Posed like this, it could almost be construed that the counselor was trying to talk me into remaining married, kind of like you mention about your MM. Instead, she was making me look at the reality of the situation so I could consider everything. Not sure if that makes sense but it is my take. Good luck!
Star_Bright Posted October 5, 2010 Posted October 5, 2010 One question: is your MM counselor also a marriage counselor OR is this counselor counseling both your MM and his W? If so, that could explain any "bias" but I really don't think the counselor is trying to coerce your MM to do anything but just offer a reality check. Okay, reading what you write here as an objective bystander...it sounds like the counselor is trying to get the MM to consider all the options. Really, I think the role of a counselor is to be a good sounding board for their patient. So, when the counselor (as you are describing above and remember you are hearing it filtered through your MM-unless you are attending the counseling session with him) says to him to consider the expense of divorce or the years he has spent in the marriage, to me it sounds like he is just being asked to consider these things. And your MM should consider them as factors in his decision. NOT to stay in the marriage necessarily but he should face facts that divorce IS expensive and he DID spend a lot of years with his wife. Likely, that is what the counselor is trying to get him to see. The counselor might also be asking him to consider what it will be like when he leaves his marriage--to offer the balanced viewpoint. Not directing him to do one thing or the other but to consider all the options and different possibilities. See the difference? Again, that is just my take based on your post. A brief snippet from my own counseling after my husband's affair: I/we got on the topic of me divorcing my husband. My counselor asked me all the objective questions, what would you do? Divorce is a complicated process, you know. Would you be lonely? Would you move away? What about your children, how would they feel? Posed like this, it could almost be construed that the counselor was trying to talk me into remaining married, kind of like you mention about your MM. Instead, she was making me look at the reality of the situation so I could consider everything. Not sure if that makes sense but it is my take. Good luck! Thanks, I see what you mean. MM's counselor started off as his wife's individual counselor, a long time ago. Then she brought MM and for awhile the counselor was their couple's counselor, again a long time ago and then I think a bit more recently. Now he is seeing her on his own. I always thought this would create a conflict because now his wife, who was the counselor's first patient, couldn't really go back to counseling on her own, because now the counselor has MM's point of view in mind, right? And if they wanted to do marriage counseling again, well, the counselor would already know way more of MM's side of the story, right? So I didn't know it could work this way and I don't really agree with it... I feel like if I were a counselor I would only see the couple or an individual and never one individual, and then the couple, and then the other individual... basically whoever is willing to pay me at the time.
2sure Posted October 5, 2010 Posted October 5, 2010 A counselor asking a client "Have you considered how expensive a divorce will be?" ....I mean, if the expense of a divorce has to be brought up by a counselor for it to be considered...isnt that one of the FIRST considerations, even by someone vaguely thinking about divorce. I cannot imagine someone getting legal or financial advice from a MC.
pureinheart Posted October 5, 2010 Posted October 5, 2010 (edited) I agree with most of what others have posted based on the suggesting, the exploration of ones own issues and feelings. I too had been hearing/seeing a lot of what you described in your OP. I have been in and out of councelling since 1987, on an as needed basis...life was just too crazy for too long and now I have the time to devote to "me" so am going regularly. SG, what we have to remember is some of the stuff we hear on LS, especially about councelling, is coming from those seeking help, and some are extremely traumatised...and in the beginning of their councelling possibly they hear what they want to and are misrepresenting their councellors, meaning their perception is way off. I am in no way cutting anyone down as I understand what it's like to be severely traumatised. I'm really glad you brought this up BTW:) Edited October 5, 2010 by pureinheart
Spark1111 Posted October 5, 2010 Posted October 5, 2010 Thanks, I see what you mean. MM's counselor started off as his wife's individual counselor, a long time ago. Then she brought MM and for awhile the counselor was their couple's counselor, again a long time ago and then I think a bit more recently. Now he is seeing her on his own. I always thought this would create a conflict because now his wife, who was the counselor's first patient, couldn't really go back to counseling on her own, because now the counselor has MM's point of view in mind, right? And if they wanted to do marriage counseling again, well, the counselor would already know way more of MM's side of the story, right? So I didn't know it could work this way and I don't really agree with it... I feel like if I were a counselor I would only see the couple or an individual and never one individual, and then the couple, and then the other individual... basically whoever is willing to pay me at the time. We had a scenario similiar to this and it worked for us. Here is why: I had been seeing this counselor for a while, when DDAY struck. Then my H started to see him. At that point, I suppose, he had both sides of the marriage and both sides of all stories. And at that point, what we each said in individual counseling could never be repeated to the other or used against the other. That would be a violation of ethics. No one is ever told what to do, although all options are explored and considered. The goal is to get the client to decide what choice they believe is in their best interests....and then to own it.
Star_Bright Posted October 5, 2010 Posted October 5, 2010 A counselor asking a client "Have you considered how expensive a divorce will be?" ....I mean, if the expense of a divorce has to be brought up by a counselor for it to be considered...isnt that one of the FIRST considerations, even by someone vaguely thinking about divorce. I cannot imagine someone getting legal or financial advice from a MC. Yes, he had considered it at length of course, and was unsure why she was bringing it up. He said she also asked him "have you considered what it will be like to be without the possessions you've worked for for the last 20 years?" I don't know if this is financial advice or just his counselor getting him to consider all the angles, which he had already considered, or what.
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