Was marriage and fidelity always this hard?

[Mangled]

I came on here a few months ago considering pursuing an affair with a married neighbor. Ultimately, I didn't. Mostly because I avoided getting into a really tempting situation. Because if I'm being honest, I'm not entirely sure I could have turned her down if the opportunity had been decent. She's an attractive lady and is interesting to talk to.

 

I'm quite sure this isn't the most honest way to deal with this particular temptation, but it works. I'd like to say I'm strong enough to resist, but I don't think I can trust myself.

 

So I'm still married, faithfully, to a depressed, anxious woman in whom I have virtually no interest anymore. She's not a bad mom, not a great mom. She's a stay-at-home mom (her choice), and really does very little in the way of housekeeping, cooking, etc. I'm not some primitive chauvinist, but I figure if she's at home, and that's where she wants to be, we shouldn't have pizza 3 times per week. I end up doing a fair bit of cooking only so that my daughter's diet isn't entirely McDonald's and mac and cheese.

 

I just want to know, is this generational? When I was a kid, were there this many moms who seemed to hate their circumstances? I just don't get it. My parents were happily married, they both worked relatively hard at their respective roles, and seemed to approach things from a team perspective. I don't see that happening as often now. Maybe it's just that my parents were out of the norm and I grew up naive.

 

It sucks. I really wanted marriage and family to be joyous things. Instead, it's just a slow drudgery. I'll likely stay faithful, just on principle, but really, is anybody surprised that spouses go out of their marriage to get a little happiness, even if it's temporary and a bit shallow?

Edited October 4, 2010 by Mangled

[Summer Breeze]

I came on here a few months ago considering pursuing an affair with a married neighbor. Ultimately, I didn't. Mostly because I avoided getting into a really tempting situation. Because if I'm being honest, I'm not entirely sure I could have turned her down if the opportunity had been decent. She's an attractive lady and is interesting to talk to.

 

I'm quite sure this isn't the most honest way to deal with this particular temptation, but it works. I'd like to say I'm strong enough to resist, but I don't think I can trust myself.

 

So I'm still married, faithfully, to a depressed, anxious woman in whom I have virtually no interest anymore. She's not a bad mom, not a great mom. She's a stay-at-home mom (her choice), and really does very little in the way of housekeeping, cooking, etc. I'm not some primitive chauvinist, but I figure if she's at home, and that's where she wants to be, we shouldn't have pizza 3 times per week. I end up doing a fair bit of cooking only so that my daughter's diet isn't entirely McDonald's and mac and cheese.

 

I just want to know, is this generational? When I was a kid, were there this many moms who seemed to hate their circumstances? I just don't get it. My parents were happily married, they both worked relatively hard at their respective roles, and seemed to approach things from a team perspective. I don't see that happening as often now. Maybe it's just that my parents were out of the norm and I grew up naive.

 

It sucks. I really wanted marriage and family to be joyous things. Instead, it's just a slow drudgery. I'll likely stay faithful, just on principle, but really, is anybody surprised that spouses go out of their marriage to get a little happiness, even if it's temporary and a bit shallow?

 

Yes it has always been this hard. You need only read history to see how hard it's been forever. Scarlet letters and all that.

 

My father cheated and my great uncle cheated. My mother was a doting mother who adored my father. She was a stay at home mom that would have done anything to make him happy. There was nothing but turmoil in their marriage because of his infidelity and I never knew until was 18. The only reason I found out then was because I stumbled across one of his affairs. My great aunt was a career woman when that was unheard of. She worked side by side with my great uncle and he said he cheated on her because she wasn't the type to be a homemaker.

 

My best friend in high school was told at 26 that her parents were divorcing because her mother had been having an affair for 12 years and her parents had been biding their time to end things till the kids were old enough and secure enough.

 

It's always been hard. I'm not casting any doubt on your parents marriage but I thought my parents was perfect. They held hands and they had dates and they were the thing I wanted to have most. Except they weren't. They were what they wanted me to see.

 

If you're not happy get out now. Talk to her and try to repair things but if it isn't going to work don't waste your life. Don't waste hers. Don't lie to your kids. Find some happiness and let them do the same. Make it real, not an illusion.

[Owl]

OK, I get that you're not happy with your marriage.

 

So...what are you going to do about that?

 

You can accept it as the way things are supposed to be, suck up, and go on living unhappily.

 

You can take active measures to actually change the situation...and improve it.

 

You can take active measures to change the situation...find that it doesn't improve, and then take active measures to leave.

 

You can divorce now.

 

My thought is that if you're not happy with your marriage...then change it. Tell your wife how unhappy you are. Start MC to make changes to improve the quality of the marriage for the BOTH of you. Work to identify what's lacking, what needs to change to make it better, and develop plans to implement those changes.

 

Or...tell your wife you don't think it's gonna get better, and file for divorce.

 

Or...accept that this is where you decided to be, and drive on.

 

If you want something to change...change something.

 

If you change nothing...nothing will change.

[Snowflower]

Mangled, I think I remember you from a few months ago!

 

FWIW, I'm glad you didn't engage in an affair. It would have had so many complications, confusion and pain to your life that nothing would have likely ever been the same again.

 

As for it being a generational thing, no I don't think so. I think unhappy marriages were not spoken about openly in many cases.

 

But don't compare your marriage to your parents'. That's doing a disservice to you and your wife. You are not your parents and your marriage is your own. I think when people compare themselves to others it sets them up for disappointment.

 

Like Owl said, take some time now to think about what you want in your marriage and in your life. What would a happy marriage look like to you? What do you want in a marriage? Think about these things and then articulate them to your wife. Consider marriage counseling.

 

Otherwise, if you don't take the steps to change things, expect more of the same.

[seren]

I think that technology has made it easier to pursue A's, in that before the internet and texting and mobile phones, it took way more effort for people to have A's and to communicate secretly. I think marriage does take work for it to work, life isn't easy and it wasn't so easy way back for people, especially women, to leave. I also think that women expect more and refuse to put up with in the way, my mother would, for example.

 

I only knew of one divorced couple when I was growing up, sadly it now seems to be the majority of people I know are on second marriages. peopl too have changed and expect to live in tra la la land and are, IMO, more self centered.

[Mangled]

Okay, I appreciate the comments. I am likely guilty of idealizing my parents' marriage to some degree, but I think part of that stems from the fact that it really was an excellent marriage. They were great friends, and I wanted that in my marriage.

 

I've been to therapy a couple of times in the last couple of months, by myself. I've described my marriage and my wife to the therapist. I've tried to be honest and not gloss over my own faults, though I recognize that there are limits to that. I've admitted that I've been tempted to stray, that I've become lonely, that I'm disenchanted with the whole relationship, and that it makes me sad.

 

My therapist basically told me that, in her opinion and based on what I've said, my wife is clinically depressed, and that without proper care, the marriage will continue to deteriorate. Okay, fair enough. The decent, caring, loyal side of me recognizes that this is a mental illness, albeit one that I don't understand all that well, and that I have to stand by my wife "in sickness", as I promised all those years ago. But my wife refuses to get help. I've asked her. Nicely. I've asked her firmly. I've asked her in the most vulnerable way possible. But even though she sees her doctor for big doses of anti-depressant medication, even though she is drinking more, even though she sleeps 12+ hours per day, even though she's moody almost all of the time, she will not acknowledge that the treatment she's receiving is not working properly. She flat out refuses to go to talk therapy, alone or with me. She won't even talk to me about it.

 

My therapist recommended against any ultimatums, saying they almost never work and almost always make things worse. So I figure I've got 3 options. First, I leave and fight like hell for custody, with the full knowledge that the best I can hope for up here in Canada is shared custody, meaning my child spends at least half of her time with my wife, as her depression worsens. Not a thrilling outcome. Second, I stick around and grin and bear it. Sacrifice my own happiness and do my best to be good-humoured about it. Likely the most mature option, but not a pleasant one, and not a particularly honest one in my opinion. Or, thirdly, go through the motions at home and seek out a satisfying affair, while remaining in my home and in constant contact with my daughter. None of these options are nearly as attractive as just having a well-adjusted marriage, but this is where I find myself.

[seren]

It sounds like your wife is clinically depressed, it also sounds like her doctor isn't addressing the real problem, but masking it with anti depressants. Crap doctor IMO, there is only so much a person can do, the saying about leading a horse to water is so so true. Depression sucks the life out of any relationship, I don't think an A is the answer, it sounds like you would struggle with yourself if you went down that route as the problem lies with you and your wife and an A would just add to that.

 

You could discuss it with her GP, he/she might not discuss her personally, but it would give you the opportunity to get it out there and shake them up a bit (perhaps). I hope you can get proper help for her, support for you and most importantly, ensure that your children are as unaffected as you can. It must be hell, for all of you. Take very good care, get some support for you xx

[Owl]

Mangled, do you really feel that your third 'option' is one that you truly consider on the table?

 

Sure, you COULD do it. But is it morally/emotionally on the table for you to consider?

 

I get the point about ultimatums...but here's my experience. Ultimatums are indeed worse than useless...IF YOU'RE NOT WILLING TO ENFORCE THEM.

 

If you tell your wife..."Seek treatment for depression, or I'm leaving"...and she doesn't believe you or simply doesn't care enough to do what you've asked...and you then DON'T follow through on the consequences...you've shown her that you're weak and won't follow through.

 

If you tell your wife "I love you, but I can't live like this anymore. You need to get real help to deal with your depression because it's tearing our marriage apart, and I can't live with you like that anymore"....and then actually do take action to enforce the boundary when she crosses it...odds are much higher that she actually WILL make changes...and develop respect for you as well.

 

But you've got to honestly mean what you say, and you have to be willing to truly enforce the boundaries with the consequences you throw out there.

 

From my perspective, you can either adapt and accept the situation as it is, or you can insist that the situation change. An affair shouldn't even be on the table.

[InternationalPlayboy]

Your situation and mine are very similar. I love my wife, but there's this sometimes overwhelming desire for someone - anyone almost - new. It looks fun and easy and would calm those overwhelming desires, or so I think. Those overwhelming desires are very real and impossible for me to ignore. It's a constant thought in the back of my mind - constant. Even when my wife and I are on great terms and getting along there's a voice in the back of my head saying "Go for it. You're not getting any younger."

 

My parents were not good examples and they died at relatively young ages. My grandparents, however, were married 50+ years. They're deceased now but sometimes I wonder how in God's name did they do it? Sure they weren't perfect or always happy with one another, but 50 ****ing years is a long ass time. I would love to have them back in my life now if only to ask them what's their secret.

 

One thing that keeps me honest especially when my wife is depressed like yours is the thought that nothing lasts forever and everything will change eventually. One bad day, week, month or year does not equate to a lifetime of misery. If I hang on things will come around. They always do.

 

I wish you luck.

[Mangled]

I agree with the earlier post that my wife is not getting adequate medical care. I've told her as much. I've also tried to talk to her doctor on 2 occasions, and both times been rebuffed. The doctor cites privacy concerns and will not discuss my wife's situation. I don't know how else to insert myself into this process.

 

As far as whether or not I consider the affair to be a viable option, I don't know, which is likely why I haven't gone down that path at this point.

 

Maybe it's a self-destructive impulse, I'm not sure - certainly, if I have the affair, it's a good acknowledgment that I'm no longer fully committed to the marriage. If kept a secret, possibly it allows me a degree of emotional and sexual companionship without a wholesale disruption of my family life for now... in essence it delays the inevitable. If the secret comes out, it brings everything to a head and forces both my wife and I to take some concrete steps. Yes, I know it's not ideal, and I should be more forthright. Obviously I struggle with this, and that's why I'm here posting and not down the street courting the neighbor.

 

It's just lonely as hell being in this type of marriage. I try the usual things to offset this - I try to eat well, avoid alcohol, get plenty of exercise, enjoy the companionship of friends and extended family. But I don't feel comfortable discussing any of this with any of them. It seems natural to have conversations and a degree of intimacy with an interesting woman who appears genuinely interested in what I have to say. Those of you who read my initial posting on this issue will know that I've had a few discussions with this woman, none of them inappropriate, but that I enjoyed these communications, and recognized that I was attracted to her, and sensed a mutual attraction; I have by and large avoided her since that time, except when we've encountered one another at neighborhood functions. On these occasions I've been brief and cordial. Of course, as these things tend to go, my somewhat aloof behavior has caused the neighbor to be flirtatious, which further feeds my frustration.

[Owl]

The only way that you can address this issue is to have your wife address it.

 

The only reason she'll change her behavior and actually address the problems is if changing gets her something that she wants bad enough to make the change, or if not changing causes her to lose something she values enough to want to make the change.

 

In other words...she'll only change if the benefit of changing outweighs the pain of changing.

 

She's made it clear to you so far that she doesn't want to change.

 

The only reason I can see for her to change is if she knows that if she doesn't, it's going to cost her something dear to her. Like your marriage, possibly.

 

I say that you need to INSIST on marriage counseling. Don't ask her to go...tell her point blank that if she wants to remain married to you, she WILL go.

 

She won't like it, but it gets her there and hopefully starts things down a new path.

 

But its up to you to determine how hard you want to fight in order to get these changes to take place.

[UntoldStory]

Mangled, I'm a MW with a depressed H. He's been depressed as long as I've known him, which is 17 years now, but I didn't recognize it because I was depressed as well for a good chunk of that time. In fact it took getting involved in an EA for me to truly understand the depth of what I had been missing in my own life (all of the things I used to take joy in, that I had given up in my marriage) and what I should be expecting from my relationship with my H. The EA is over, but my marriage hasn't changed. It's what it was from the beginning, but that is no longer enough for me.

 

My H was *really* resistant to MC, but finally agreed. Then, he was *really* resistant to going into IC, but finally agreed. He's still not on meds, which is what he needs to be able to fully open his eyes and see that he deserves so much more happiness in his life than he's experiencing.

 

Unfortunately, even if my H were fully enjoying his own life, I don't think we're going to make each other happy in the long term. There are no common interests between us, nothing to sustain us once our kids are on their own. My own parents divorced when I was my son's age, so I know the pain it brings to everyone. But I agree with previous posters who say it is so much more honest and caring to everyone involved when two people can admit that they have outgrown their M, and show their children that they deserve something more from their interpersonal relationships.

 

A friend repeats this to me whenever I have moments doubting whether I'm doing the right thing: Would you want your children to have the relationship you have now? If not, don't show them that as a model, and don't accept less for yourself.

Edited October 7, 2010 by UntoldStory

[jnj express]

Hey Mangled----actions are always much louder than words------talking has gotten you nowhere----Your Wife at this point is pretty sure you are all talk, and that you will stick by your vows and do nothing---just basically stay status quo

 

Play a little bluff, and see if it works----go to the closest courthouse, and get a blank divorce packet---should only cost a few bucks-----leave it lying around the house where your wife will discover it----see what kind of a response you get from doing that----you don't have to tell her anything, but I would guess this might provide a wake up call for her

[alwaysthinking]

Okay, I appreciate the comments. I am likely guilty of idealizing my parents' marriage to some degree, but I think part of that stems from the fact that it really was an excellent marriage. They were great friends, and I wanted that in my marriage.

 

I've been to therapy a couple of times in the last couple of months, by myself. I've described my marriage and my wife to the therapist. I've tried to be honest and not gloss over my own faults, though I recognize that there are limits to that. I've admitted that I've been tempted to stray, that I've become lonely, that I'm disenchanted with the whole relationship, and that it makes me sad.

 

My therapist basically told me that, in her opinion and based on what I've said, my wife is clinically depressed, and that without proper care, the marriage will continue to deteriorate. Okay, fair enough. The decent, caring, loyal side of me recognizes that this is a mental illness, albeit one that I don't understand all that well, and that I have to stand by my wife "in sickness", as I promised all those years ago. But my wife refuses to get help. I've asked her. Nicely. I've asked her firmly. I've asked her in the most vulnerable way possible. But even though she sees her doctor for big doses of anti-depressant medication, even though she is drinking more, even though she sleeps 12+ hours per day, even though she's moody almost all of the time, she will not acknowledge that the treatment she's receiving is not working properly. She flat out refuses to go to talk therapy, alone or with me. She won't even talk to me about it.

 

My therapist recommended against any ultimatums, saying they almost never work and almost always make things worse. So I figure I've got 3 options. First, I leave and fight like hell for custody, with the full knowledge that the best I can hope for up here in Canada is shared custody, meaning my child spends at least half of her time with my wife, as her depression worsens. Not a thrilling outcome. Second, I stick around and grin and bear it. Sacrifice my own happiness and do my best to be good-humoured about it. Likely the most mature option, but not a pleasant one, and not a particularly honest one in my opinion. Or, thirdly, go through the motions at home and seek out a satisfying affair, while remaining in my home and in constant contact with my daughter. None of these options are nearly as attractive as just having a well-adjusted marriage, but this is where I find myself.

 

 

I can completely relate to your situation. My husband of 16 years is depressed, and struggles with anxiety. As the years have gone by, he has drawn more and more into himself- I feel completely cut off from him emotionally. He is on an anti-depressant, but I don't think it's enough. He comfort eats (has gained 50lbs and is quite overweight) and really sucks at communicating. He has a horribly low self-esteem- no matter what I say or do to try and help. He doesn't "deal" with his problems- just avoids confrontations. I can't help but feel very very alone, and without a partner. If that's how our relationship is going to continue, I would rather literally be on my own (less stress). I love him, but I can't help him or our relationship until he is willing to help himself. (And I have been to therapy as well). Which then brings me to the OM- a friend/coworker, to which there is an obvious attraction. Oddly enough, if I was single and looking for someone, he would not be the type I would seek out. But there is depth to him, which is one thing that is very much lacking in my relationship. I would class our current relationship as an EA (thread posted on other man/other woman), and I too have lots of angst about where things are headed for me. I, like you, feel like I have only the 3 options that you mentioned. Although I do realize the consequences and complications, that third option is definitely the most tempting. My husband and I have 3 kids, which of course, complicates things. If it was just him and I, I believe this situation would have been resolved, one way or another, a long time ago. I don't understand why things have to be so complicated with regards to marriage and fidelity. I think that it probably has always been this hard- but perhaps in this day and age, we are able to be more honest with ourselves with regards to how we feel and what we want out of relationships. Years ago, I think people had a tendency to go through the motions of what was expected, hiding the internal suffering that we are both feeling. Just my thoughts...

[FanFan]

I came on here a few months ago considering pursuing an affair with a married neighbor. Ultimately, I didn't. Mostly because I avoided getting into a really tempting situation. Because if I'm being honest, I'm not entirely sure I could have turned her down if the opportunity had been decent. She's an attractive lady and is interesting to talk to.

 

Even if you're single, you should not go there. She is MARRIED. What do you think of her husband? What happened when he finds out? How are you going to face him? How are you going to face your wife, your kids, your family, her family?

 

If you're not happy, end it, but DON'T CHEAT. And, don't cheat with someone's wife.

[seren]

Mangled, how long have you been married and how long has your wife been depressed? I wonder if things between you both were good until the depression kicked in, or has it escalated recently.

 

My SIL has Bipolar depression, some days she can barely get out of bed, feels she is worthless and life is not worth living. Others, she is better, it took a long time for her to get diagnosed and a long time for her to admit she had a problem. During this time my brother was beside himself wondering what he could do to help and support her. They finally managed to find out what worked for them, but it took a lot of patience and understanding from him and others to reach this point. Having worked in menatl health myself for a time, I can say that depression is such a terrible, terrible thing to live with and to watch someone else living with it. Especially someone you love.

 

I am not sure if it your W's depression that is making you unhappy or your conflict about the MW you have been talking to, or is it a case of chicken and egg situation?

I still don't think ultimatums work, if she is depressed then it is an illness and one in which she has little control - she has to recognise she is depressed to get treatment. as for A's, well that really won't help her one little bit. Nothing justifies an A, IMO.

[Mangled]

Was away for the weekend, so missed these responses until this morning.

 

Owl - I don't know how to "insist" on marriage counseling, short of threatening to leave the house and meaning it. And I have no intention of leaving - I'm not going to abandon my house and my child and go sleep on a couch somewhere. I will try telling my wife to get counseling or leave, but really, how do I compel that? She'll refuse to go, and I'll have made a useless ultimatum. I have told her that our marriage will not succeed without outside help, but there's nothing urgent in that statement, and it hasn't worked. I'm not at a point yet where I can start divorce proceedings, but I am investigating involved.

 

jnj - The days are coming when I'll have concrete divorce plans and I'll let her know when I do.

 

alwaysthinking - it sounds like you understand the loneliness of my predicament. I'm sorry you're going through the same thing. Let me ask you, has your EA helped your situation? Do you think you'll go to the next level? I'm not at the EA stage yet, but it could go there easily and quickly, I think. The ball's in my court there.

 

fanfan - on paper, I completely agree with your position. If I was outside looking in on this, I'd say what you're saying. But I'm finding it's a lot more complicated from where I'm sitting. As far as her marriage, my understanding is that it's been a wreck for years, before I knew her. I haven't heard this from her - we've never had a deep conversation and never discussed our personal circumstances - but it's common knowledge in our social circle. As far as her husband, I've got to say I don't really care. I don't like the guy, and never have - I met him several years before I'd every met her. If I had no attraction to or connection with this woman whatsoever, I'd still think she'd be better off without him. So would her kids. I recognize that now that I have some interest in her, my judgments here are tainted, but I felt this way long before I knew her.

 

seren - my wife became anxious and starting suffering from minor depression likely about 10-12 years ago. Our relationship at the time was excellent. Her condition worsened after our daughter was born, but really spiralled in the last 2-3 years. I'm not sure what effect, if any, my attraction to the MW has had. I can say it has made me less motivated to engage in the marriage. I find it's easier now to just keep my mouth shut, be polite, and avoid having any deep conversations with my Wife. They always end poorly anyway, so at least this way we have peace. I would expect that if my acquaintance with the MW turns toward an EA, it will likely make my marriage worse, and certainly make me look on my Wife in a less favorable light.

[Mangled]

To complicate matters somewhat...

 

I went away with the family this weekend, and it was horrible. We attended a family function, and of course, my wife was all bubbly and happy in public when there was a crowd. As soon as we'd return to our room, she'd be back to normal. My daughter was in the room with us, and I spent most of my time hanging out with her. When the family function was over, and it was just us and my wife's parents, she was less controlled, losing her temper because the brunch restaurant was booked, and being short and moody with her folks. This always makes me sad, though at some level it's nice for me when somebody outside our marriage sees that she's not really as level as she pretends to be.

 

I awoke Monday morning in the hotel (this was a long weekend in Canada) to find 3 messages from the neighbour on the phone from the weekend. Nothing remotely salacious, just some newsy notes. I left a polite reply yesterday, nothing else. This is what I mean by the ball being in my court - I think I can turn this thing on anytime. It's lucky that I found the messages after I'd been for a run and was feeling level-headed, because after the loneliness of this weekend, it would be pretty easy to fall into some deeper conversation.

[alwaysthinking]

I really feel for you and the loneliness that you are feeling. Hard not to be tempted when the potential of feeling loved and wanted is staring you right in the face. You asked if my EA helped my situation at all- yes and no! Yes, in the fact that I am receiving some affirmation from someone (even if it's not my husband), and I feel wanted- 2 things that I haven't felt in years. Yes, in that it serves as a distraction of sorts, and I tend to expect less of my husband b/c some emotional needs are being met elsewhere. When I expect less of my husband, I am able to be more content in our present situation. But no, in the fact that I am doing nothing to help my marriage- I am spending too much emotional energy on my EAP that I know I should be investing in my marriage. And no, in the guilt and anxiety that goes along with all of this. Regarding going to "the next level"- I won't know that until I am able to have a "heart to heart" with my EAP. He has a complicated life, and some of his own communication issues, and we haven't yet reached the point where we have discussed anything that has happened between us. (although I think that is coming...) If I know that my EAP has similar expectations and boundaries, I would be willing to (cautiously!) take the next step. I am just so tired of feeling lost and alone, and I am tired of being the only one working at my marriage. As wrong as I know this is, I almost feel like I have earned the right to a little happiness- and if my EAP can give me what my husband can't, then that's just how it will be for now.