wheelwright Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 This subject came up other (many other) threads. As a MOW who was dumped by her MOM, I had stuff to deal with. But then I had me and my M. And my continued love for xMOM despite NC. I had madness thinking that it wasn't right to feel like that. Formed from guilt and hurt and probably cowardice too. I have not been able to get my life back on track while rededicating to my M. This is because I do not love my H like I should (though I care for him), and because I cannot forget my xMOM. (Depending on your A philosophy, I am not yet out of the fog 1 1/2 yrs NC (well apart from ****ty love text 6 months ago), I am using the memory as exit A, or I loved him too much.) I am starting to feel that having integrity here lies in recognising my feelings, acting on them, and not giving so much credence to the kids, family duty thing. Or rather recognising where my kids might fit into a picture where I felt that I was acting with courage and integrity. Rather than my my integrity fitting into a picture where I act from duty/fear that I might have it wrong. My H knows how I feel. Where would integrity lie for you here?
jennie-jennie Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 The kids are always there. They follow you where you go. So I'd say: "having integrity here lies in recognising my feelings, acting on them, and not giving so much credence to the family duty thing".
Author wheelwright Posted October 3, 2010 Author Posted October 3, 2010 The kids are always there. They follow you where you go. So I'd say: "having integrity here lies in recognising my feelings, acting on them, and not giving so much credence to the family duty thing". Thanks for replying Jennie. I feel more peaceful than I have felt for a long time, and I think that is because I am realising that society's view of duty does not necessarily coincide with my own integrity.
Spark1111 Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 This subject came up other (many other) threads. As a MOW who was dumped by her MOM, I had stuff to deal with. But then I had me and my M. And my continued love for xMOM despite NC. I had madness thinking that it wasn't right to feel like that. Formed from guilt and hurt and probably cowardice too. I have not been able to get my life back on track while rededicating to my M. This is because I do not love my H like I should (though I care for him), and because I cannot forget my xMOM. (Depending on your A philosophy, I am not yet out of the fog 1 1/2 yrs NC (well apart from ****ty love text 6 months ago), I am using the memory as exit A, or I loved him too much.) I am starting to feel that having integrity here lies in recognising my feelings, acting on them, and not giving so much credence to the kids, family duty thing. Or rather recognising where my kids might fit into a picture where I felt that I was acting with courage and integrity. Rather than my my integrity fitting into a picture where I act from duty/fear that I might have it wrong. My H knows how I feel. Where would integrity lie for you here? You honor those feelings my friend, and trust them, and let them cry, scream, rage. giggle, dance, laugh, and whirl about you so you can lead the most authentic life you can. Because if you cannot do that, you cannot do/have be that person for anyone else.....kids included. You need to examine how that former AP made you feel? Why? You need to identify what needs of your's he met. You then need to express those needs to your husband and tell him specifically what he can do to meet them. Then you need to listen to what he needs from you, and how you can fill those needs. And if the two of you follow this, and STILL your feelings do not grow..... You need to think about the life you need to live, one where you have integrity to not only be who you are, but one where you have the integrity to express what you need from another, and to either feel as if you deserve to receive it..... or create a life where you give it to yourself. That's integrity to me.
Author wheelwright Posted October 3, 2010 Author Posted October 3, 2010 You honor those feelings my friend, and trust them, and let them cry, scream, rage. giggle, dance, laugh, and whirl about you so you can lead the most authentic life you can. Because if you cannot do that, you cannot do/have be that person for anyone else.....kids included. You need to examine how that former AP made you feel? Why? You need to identify what needs of your's he met. You then need to express those needs to your husband and tell him specifically what he can do to meet them. Then you need to listen to what he needs from you, and how you can fill those needs. And if the two of you follow this, and STILL your feelings do not grow..... You need to think about the life you need to live, one where you have integrity to not only be who you are, but one where you have the integrity to express what you need from another, and to either feel as if you deserve to receive it..... or create a life where you give it to yourself. That's integrity to me. Thank you for another beautiful post. I feel the bolded is what we have been doing since DDay. All the things you say we have explored, and it has been a good path, because we both learnt a lot, though it was painful. I feel I know what I need to do. That is because I am considering this issue of integrity. I am no longer in the hurracaine of an A, so I guess it is good these decisions are made like this in the long run. (Rather than the A being an exit A). I have found that there are many factors which sway in these decisions, and it has been a huge psychological struggle for me. Indecision has weighed, and I hated not being sure as I always was before, I think this experience has made me face so many of my inner demons, which is no small feat.
Spark1111 Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 Well facing the inner demons is the hardest part of the whole process! Identify the inner demons and everything else falls into place. Unfortunately, it is the hardest part to examine, introspect upon and fix. It may NOT be fixable! But I LOVE that I now have the courage to say: That made me sad. I need a few days to process it and I promise I will tell you in a few days WHY. That made me feel scared or unsafe. As soon as I figure it out, I will let you know WHY. That made me feel unimportant, blah, blah, blah.... And the best part? When I can eventually articulate my feelings, and give him CONCRETE directions, he tries to change that behavior! I have been doing the same for him! He likes constant companionship whether he goes to the grocery, farm stand, household chores, so on. Who knew? Not me! So when I accompany him rather than accomplish some needed household chore, he feels important. Who knew? I am NOT saying what worked for me will work for everyone. I am saying when I could identify my feelings, express my needs, and give him the opportunity to fulfill them, as I tried to do with him, did we stand a chance. It was having integrity to myself that initiated chose changes, and dragging him kicking and screaming to have that sort of honesty with me, that led me to a better place. Just saying...... It all starts with integrity to one's emotions, needs and having the courage to communicate that and the expectation that my SO would try to fill them that led to positive changes in my life..... And the courage that if we could not do that, that I would still have integrity to myself that led to courage
pureinheart Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 This subject came up other (many other) threads. As a MOW who was dumped by her MOM, I had stuff to deal with. But then I had me and my M. And my continued love for xMOM despite NC. I had madness thinking that it wasn't right to feel like that. Formed from guilt and hurt and probably cowardice too. I have not been able to get my life back on track while rededicating to my M. This is because I do not love my H like I should (though I care for him), and because I cannot forget my xMOM. (Depending on your A philosophy, I am not yet out of the fog 1 1/2 yrs NC (well apart from ****ty love text 6 months ago), I am using the memory as exit A, or I loved him too much.) I am starting to feel that having integrity here lies in recognising my feelings, acting on them, and not giving so much credence to the kids, family duty thing. Or rather recognising where my kids might fit into a picture where I felt that I was acting with courage and integrity. Rather than my my integrity fitting into a picture where I act from duty/fear that I might have it wrong. My H knows how I feel. Where would integrity lie for you here? Knowing that I did the best I could with what I had at the time. I was by far not the perfect parent...hahaha and am not the perfect grandparent, BUT they all have love. My Kids are "cool", they could be on the streets and speak that language and be in a high powered corporate meeting and speak their language. They are extremely intelligent and versatile. They carry themselves well and do not get up in other peoples business unless asked. Integrity. WW, integrity means a lot of things to me.... BTW, your doing fine:)
Owl Posted October 4, 2010 Posted October 4, 2010 Well...my thought is that if you've spent 1 1/2 years in NC, and still feel so strongly about MOM, and still don't "love" your husband...it's time to recognize that your marriage will probably never be what you are looking for. Personally, I'd suggest that what you need might be some time on your own. Seperation or divorce seems like your best option at this point. I don't know how your H feels on this subject, but I'd suspect that he's got to be getting tired too. It sounds to me like the two of you need to start discussing doing something different, if nothing has changed in the last 1 1/2 years.
U2RockZz Posted October 4, 2010 Posted October 4, 2010 you are acting like our client...who doesn't want what we built for months ,yet he doesn't know what he want.......it's always some where in the middle.....act fast before you loose everything
Silly_Girl Posted October 4, 2010 Posted October 4, 2010 I find this interesting. My guy and I talked around integrity a fair deal when he was still deceiving his wife by being in a relationship with me. His idea of integrity (originally) seemed firmly attached to duty, and obligation, and promises made in the past. That's all fine, but you have to LIVE that way for it to be integrity. So claiming your marriage vows matter means not cheating. To me anyway. For me it's more about living in a positive manner... being honest - with others AND oneself - about what you want, what you need, what you can offer... what you can't. It's about acting in a manner that means being true to your inner self, so that you can be the best you can be. That doesn't mean not making sacrifices, or compromising, but those things cannot be the foundation. You have the foundation (yourself) and THEN you have those things. Fundamentally I believe that if you are fighting your inner self, you are swimming upstream and no one will ever get from you what they need or would wish for. I realise some will skew that sentence into something selfish and shameful, but that's not at all how I mean it to be read.
Silly_Girl Posted October 4, 2010 Posted October 4, 2010 Obviously his cheating and your participation as the AP showed a lack of integrity on both your parts. Did you and he ever acknowledge that you both lacked integrity by the very act of participating in the affair? If not, what is the point of discussing "integrity" at all? OK so you knew he was a cheater and therefore lacked integrity--according to your own definition. He did not keep his marriage vows. Since you assisted him in breaking those vows, if you hold yourself to the same standard, then you also lacked integrity during the affair. Again--if this is what you and he discussed then how did you reconcile your concept of integrity with participation in the affair, in the first place? Presumably that would include not cheating on one's spouse and not participating in an affair with a cheating spouse? Some people seem to have a pretty shaky foundation actually. People with integrity don't cheat on their spouses and they don't have affairs with married people. Full stop. Are you a professional thread-jacker? Feel free to PM me if you have a genuine interest in my personal situation. Thanks.
seren Posted October 4, 2010 Posted October 4, 2010 For me, integrity = I have to live with me, I choose who else I live with, am friends with and trust. I have to be comfortable with myself, I have to like and love myself otherwise how else can I expect someone else to do so. To do that, I follow my own moral compass and that has always been based on doing no harm to others, that includes hurting someone at my expense, lying for my own end, and if that is to include my views on A's, I, personally, couldn't do it because it would go against who I am and what I value. Yes my H had an A, I have accepted it or at least learnt to live with it, he hasn't because he compromised his own moral compass and he finds it very difficult to forgive himself. He feels he has lost integrity, I hope in time he forgives himself.
Silly_Girl Posted October 5, 2010 Posted October 5, 2010 No not at all. I simply responded to what you chose to post in this thread. A better suggestion then the snide and unnecessary one you just made (since it's apparent you don't really want me to "PM" you about your situation, instead you seem to resent any commentary on it) would be for you to simply not post your personal details if you don't want to receive comments in response to what you post. Genuine offer. You made snide comments with no understanding of my situation. No bashing to the OP, a married cheater, but to me, a single AP. Your post didn't answer what WW had asked so I didn't respond. No hard feelings
Silly_Girl Posted October 5, 2010 Posted October 5, 2010 Lots of assumptions! Have you considered responding to the OP?
bestplayer Posted October 5, 2010 Posted October 5, 2010 Your offer was not genuine because you have no interest in hearing my opinion. But none of my comments were snide. You got on your soapbox giving advice about "integrity" using your own affair that you were having supposedly as the context, but without any indication whatsoever that you'd even come to the realization that your role as an affair partner was lacking in integrity--yet simultaneously you were critical of your own affair partner for that reason, that in your words he was "deceiving" his spouse. Yet, no responsibility for you? OK if you say so. Nope, I didn't bash anyone. You're again asserting that as the unmarried AP you have no responsibility for the occurrence of the affair, even while acknowledging your married affair partner's lack of integrity. You have no basis to be schooling anyone on the meaning of "integrity" because you don't know what it is. Sure my post did, but since you're morally blindwhen the subject is extramarital affairs, the words were meaningless to you. That's understandable. Listen, it would be one thing if you were saying you felt your married affair partner's actions were justified for such and such reasons; and therefore, that your being his affair partner was also justified. I don't really know what those reasons would be, and I'd probably disagree, but at least you would be showing some consistency, which is a form of "integrity"--putting yourself in the same boat as your affair partner. However, you didn't do that--you blatantly came out saying that what your affair partner was doing lacked integrity because he was married and deceiving his spouse. OK fine that's an easy thing to agree with. But then you imply that your conduct in participating in the affair did NOT lack integrity because you're not married. You can't have it both ways hon. If you KNOW that you're a participant assisting someone in deceitful behavior, then you are ALSO responsible for it. You were the person who HELPED your affair partner cheat on his wife. Since you personally have acknowledged that you are AWARE that what he was doing was WRONG, and you have admitted that you were aware of that AT THE TIME--you say you even had discussions with him about it--that means you lack integrity. my friend , the intensity of your replies suggests that you are too angry . what's up ?
2sure Posted October 5, 2010 Posted October 5, 2010 I have been spending some time trying to define, identify, and live with my ideas of personal integrity. Seems to me that if I look around at people I admire - they live their lives with Integrity & Decency. Most notable when the decisions or circumstances are difficult. But they dont justify or excuse themselves from Integrity simply because doing so would be the seemingly easier thing for anyone. They know it is the long run, life itself, that has to be in mind when making a decision. I said it on the other thread, but for me its worth repeating because I am finding that it is true: Integrity does not exist in any part of your life unless it exists in all of it.
Spark1111 Posted October 5, 2010 Posted October 5, 2010 I have been spending some time trying to define, identify, and live with my ideas of personal integrity. Seems to me that if I look around at people I admire - they live their lives with Integrity & Decency. Most notable when the decisions or circumstances are difficult. But they dont justify or excuse themselves from Integrity simply because doing so would be the seemingly easier thing for anyone. They know it is the long run, life itself, that has to be in mind when making a decision. I said it on the other thread, but for me its worth repeating because I am finding that it is true: Integrity does not exist in any part of your life unless it exists in all of it. Love it! I might have that tattooed on my forehead....No, HIS!
bestplayer Posted October 5, 2010 Posted October 5, 2010 "What's up" is that you are obviously trying to deflect the conversation from the issue at hand, that is, what does and does not constitute "integrity". Please stop LOL this tactic is both common here and so transparent. Are you a cheater/affair partner of a married cheater, too? Show a little integrity by being honest about where you're coming from please. Thanks! OK a little quick check of your past posting history turns up this item by you from March 2010: LOL this kind of makes you sound like an apologist for cheaters, at the very least, even if not one yourself? Not surprising if it's true. see , I was right about you .
Silly_Girl Posted October 5, 2010 Posted October 5, 2010 see , I was right about you . Yes, you were!
Author wheelwright Posted October 5, 2010 Author Posted October 5, 2010 Thanks for some great responses. I think integrity is a key and underlooked part of As. I am not at all sure why any b****ing got underway here. Hey ho. Some of the things people said here made sense to me, particularly Silly Girl, Spark 1111, and 2 Sure. Also Owl. First, I think you have to have your feelings and your morals in sync - probably an A has already removed that, so you are already in a bad place. Second, I have been greatly uplifted by a quote I read. It is by Amelia Earhart (sp?) and goes something like this: 'Courage is the price life exacts for peace of mind'. I read it after I posted, and it was an epiphany for me. Because I have been running away - from myself, and all the fears I have which attend my A and my M. And it is peace of mind I knew I needed. For integrity, I believe we need courage. And I think this fits in very well with why so many here believe As involve cowardice and therefore a lack of integrity. I would add something from my own case - and would say that people who do so are supplementing rather than hi-jacking - that after my particular DDay, which involved being dumped by xMOM (grief) and being in huge conflict with my H (guilt/trying to see what is real), I was dealing with a lot and lost myself and my courage. I could talk about why at the the time I felt the A had integrity, but I certainly struggled to get it back afterwards. I believe that courage and integrity are linked.
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