Spark1111 Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 I wasn't sure where to post this initially. An ethics debate, though. I have read the viewpoint that the AP does not owe anything to the BS; that it is MP breaking the vows and the BS should take up their issues with their spouse. Some say true; some say true but have compassion if contacted; some say not true. Okay, how about this scenario: Separated MM, claims to his OW to be heading for divorce. His W, however, is still hoping to reconcile with him, unbeknownst to his OW. His W, on DDAY for her, apparently discovers not only his OW, but daily contact with several other single or divorced women, and thinks hiw OW should know she is not the only woman he has been seeing and speaking to. Does the BS owe this information to the OW? Regardless of the motivation of telling this information, would you want to be informed if your MP had other men or women they were seeing or speaking to on such a regular basis as to be......suspect? Would you want to know?
Summer Breeze Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 I wasn't sure where to post this initially. An ethics debate, though. I have read the viewpoint that the AP does not owe anything to the BS; that it is MP breaking the vows and the BS should take up their issues with their spouse. Some say true; some say true but have compassion if contacted; some say not true. Okay, how about this scenario: Separated MM, claims to his OW to be heading for divorce. His W, however, is still hoping to reconcile with him, unbeknownst to his OW. His W, on DDAY for her, apparently discovers not only his OW, but daily contact with several other single or divorced women, and thinks hiw OW should know she is not the only woman he has been seeing and speaking to. Does the BS owe this information to the OW? Regardless of the motivation of telling this information, would you want to be informed if your MP had other men or women they were seeing or speaking to on such a regular basis as to be......suspect? Would you want to know? Good question. I don't think the BS 'owes' it to the OW but yes if I'd been that OW I'd have wanted to know.
jj33 Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 Of course I would want to know but depending on the circumstances and how expert of a gaslighter the MM was, I am not sure I would believe the information. As for obligation? No. I dont think the BS owes the OW anything.
Author Spark1111 Posted October 2, 2010 Author Posted October 2, 2010 Good question. I don't think the BS 'owes' it to the OW but yes if I'd been that OW I'd have wanted to know. Not owed. But you would still want to know. I would too. Here is where the ethics debate comes in to play: Most BSs would want to know about the OW.
Author Spark1111 Posted October 2, 2010 Author Posted October 2, 2010 Of course I would want to know but depending on the circumstances and how expert of a gaslighter the MM was, I am not sure I would believe the information. As for obligation? No. I dont think the BS owes the OW anything. Yes, that is initially how it went down. He had convinced his OW that his W was depressed, crazy and drank too much. When she tried to inform the OW, the OW believed she "heard her slurring her speech," and did not believe her at first. He was a pretty convincing gaslighter, I imagine.
TigerCub Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 BS doesn't owe the OW anything. The OW is taking a risk getting involved with a liar/cheater and so if sh*t hits the fan for her - that's a risk she took when she got invovled.
TigerCub Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 He was a pretty convincing gaslighter, I imagine. I would imagine that's one of their main "job" requirements and I say this as someone that got involved with a MM - I'm not saying this in a judgemental way on the OW or BS.
Summer Breeze Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 Not owed. But you would still want to know. I would too. Here is where the ethics debate comes in to play: Most BSs would want to know about the OW. Tough one this Spark. I 'knew' about the OW. Nothing concrete and not a thing other than my gut feelings. I had nothing on him when I confronted him and his reaction gave him away. I even 'knew' who it was. If I'd found out after he'd tricked me and managed to gaslight me after years would I have wanted her to tell me. Probably not in hindsight. If he'd gaslighted me to that degree and I wasn't in the mindset that I 'knew' and accepted he'd cheated I don't think I'd have believed her. I'd have let him tell me more of what I wanted to hear. Of course it would have raised my suspicions and made him a little more careful but I'm not sure if I'd have accepted it and done anything about it. That's just me though. As an OW I told my exMM that I would like to tell his W about us. My reason was singular-he wasn't leaving and the M wasn't what it should have been. My logic was that if he was making the choice to stay he should have done it the right way. He kept saying nothing was wrong with the M and when I'd talk to him there were all of the 'issues' long term marriages suffer from. There wasn't anything that was a dealbreaker for either of them. Until he had the A. It turned out that wasn't a dealbreaker for them either but I wonder now exactly what they're up against. I told him at the beginning and in the early months I wanted to tell her and give her proof so he'd be forced to either leave or make things right and find some happiness. I didn't because I was falling for him and I knew it would end it either way. I also knew he wouldn't fix it because he didn't think it was broken and she would probably bury her head and hope for the best. I know there are a lot of assumptions there but that's what we humans do best! So as an OW I'd have liked to tell her about me but had some specific reasons not to and part of it was my selfishness. As a BS I don't think I'd have believed her. Hope all that's what you were getting at! Sorry if it wasn't!
Author Spark1111 Posted October 2, 2010 Author Posted October 2, 2010 I would imagine that's one of their main "job" requirements and I say this as someone that got involved with a MM - I'm not saying this in a judgemental way on the OW or BS. TC, would you have wanted to know? Would you have believed her if she did try to tell you? Or would you have "assumed" her motivation was to get you to back off? Because this is a true story and the info was offered in a spirit of "look how messed up he is. Please be careful with your heart." It was not initially believed by the OW because the MM had painted such a dire picture of his W. AND he had mentioned women "friends," (I love that blanket euphemism.) But the wife was trying to tell the OW that the relationships were... ahem, much more than friends judging by the intercepted cell phone bill and bank statements.
jthorne Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 BS doesn't owe the OW anything. The OW is taking a risk getting involved with a liar/cheater and so if sh*t hits the fan for her - that's a risk she took when she got invovled.My thoughts exactly.
Summer Breeze Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 TC, would you have wanted to know? Would you have believed her if she did try to tell you? Or would you have "assumed" her motivation was to get you to back off? Because this is a true story and the info was offered in a spirit of "look how messed up he is. Please be careful with your heart." It was not initially believed by the OW because the MM had painted such a dire picture of his W. AND he had mentioned women "friends," (I love that blanket euphemism.) But the wife was trying to tell the OW that the relationships were... ahem, much more than friends judging by the intercepted cell phone bill and bank statements. Sorry hun. Thought this was more of an ambiguous topic rather than an actual. In the circumstances you've described I'd probably listen and hear what she had to say and then watch very carefully. I wouldn't automatically believe her and I wouldn't automatically not believe her. Much the same as I'd be if my exH BS had contacted me. My question in response is this. How many BS would actually make that call and let an OW know there were other OOW? I'd venture a guess at a small minority and out of them I'd imagine 99% would have done it through spite.
TigerCub Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 TC, would you have wanted to know? I certainly would have wanted to know, but when it came to MM, I was dating other people (I wasn't really waiting alone for him), and sometimes I wondered if he would fool around with someone else - I don't think he had the time for that but to me the end result was the same - he was still with baby momma. I think I was the only one, and I would have wanted to know if I wasn't it - but @ the same time, as I said, end result was the same Would you have believed her if she did try to tell you? Or would you have "assumed" her motivation was to get you to back off? Because this is a true story and the info was offered in a spirit of "look how messed up he is. Please be careful with your heart." I think anything that comes from the BS in the form of "I'm looking out for you" would make me suspicious because why would the BS care about what happens to the woman that was screwing her husband behing her back? I probably wouldn't believe her right away, I'd give it some consideration, but wouldn't buy it from the get go. I'd be suspicious.
Author Spark1111 Posted October 2, 2010 Author Posted October 2, 2010 Tough one this Spark. I 'knew' about the OW. Nothing concrete and not a thing other than my gut feelings. I had nothing on him when I confronted him and his reaction gave him away. I even 'knew' who it was. If I'd found out after he'd tricked me and managed to gaslight me after years would I have wanted her to tell me. Probably not in hindsight. If he'd gaslighted me to that degree and I wasn't in the mindset that I 'knew' and accepted he'd cheated I don't think I'd have believed her. I'd have let him tell me more of what I wanted to hear. Of course it would have raised my suspicions and made him a little more careful but I'm not sure if I'd have accepted it and done anything about it. That's just me though. As an OW I told my exMM that I would like to tell his W about us. My reason was singular-he wasn't leaving and the M wasn't what it should have been. My logic was that if he was making the choice to stay he should have done it the right way. He kept saying nothing was wrong with the M and when I'd talk to him there were all of the 'issues' long term marriages suffer from. There wasn't anything that was a dealbreaker for either of them. Until he had the A. It turned out that wasn't a dealbreaker for them either but I wonder now exactly what they're up against. I told him at the beginning and in the early months I wanted to tell her and give her proof so he'd be forced to either leave or make things right and find some happiness. I didn't because I was falling for him and I knew it would end it either way. I also knew he wouldn't fix it because he didn't think it was broken and she would probably bury her head and hope for the best. I know there are a lot of assumptions there but that's what we humans do best! So as an OW I'd have liked to tell her about me but had some specific reasons not to and part of it was my selfishness. As a BS I don't think I'd have believed her. Hope all that's what you were getting at! Sorry if it wasn't! What an extremely honest perception SB! Thank you for that. In hindsight, I believe certain people alluded to the possibility of my FWS's affair, in the sense of, "You better watch out for those two (woman.) And she was one of the two. But I NEVER thought he could be cheating. I assumed these divorcees he worked with with flirts, and so what? I trusted him implicitly. So maybe I too, in my denial, did not heed warnings, or in my naivete, did listen. Maybe I needed the proverbial frying pan to the head with, "Spark! This one likes him too much!" ...oh well.... But in this scenario, I actually spoke to the W as it involved a work colleague of mine. She sounded sweet, articulate and completely lucid when I picked up the phone. I told my colleague (OW) incredulously, "Slurred speech????? You have got to be kidding me???????? Call the woman back now!"
Summer Breeze Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 What an extremely honest perception SB! Thank you for that. In hindsight, I believe certain people alluded to the possibility of my FWS's affair, in the sense of, "You better watch out for those two (woman.) And she was one of the two. But I NEVER thought he could be cheating. I assumed these divorcees he worked with with flirts, and so what? I trusted him implicitly. So maybe I too, in my denial, did not heed warnings, or in my naivete, did listen. Maybe I needed the proverbial frying pan to the head with, "Spark! This one likes him too much!" ...oh well.... But in this scenario, I actually spoke to the W as it involved a work colleague of mine. She sounded sweet, articulate and completely lucid when I picked up the phone. I told my colleague (OW) incredulously, "Slurred speech????? You have got to be kidding me???????? Call the woman back now!" Ok. So that's the other thing we humans do really well too. Remain in denial till we just can't do it anymore! All revolved around trust and man a few times knocked against them ropes is all it takes!
porter218 Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 I wasn't sure where to post this initially. An ethics debate, though. I have read the viewpoint that the AP does not owe anything to the BS; that it is MP breaking the vows and the BS should take up their issues with their spouse. Some say true; some say true but have compassion if contacted; some say not true. Okay, how about this scenario: Separated MM, claims to his OW to be heading for divorce. His W, however, is still hoping to reconcile with him, unbeknownst to his OW. His W, on DDAY for her, apparently discovers not only his OW, but daily contact with several other single or divorced women, and thinks hiw OW should know she is not the only woman he has been seeing and speaking to. Does the BS owe this information to the OW? Regardless of the motivation of telling this information, would you want to be informed if your MP had other men or women they were seeing or speaking to on such a regular basis as to be......suspect? Would you want to know? I have done this but only when I was still intimate with my H(separated and considering reconciliation). I found out that he was again sleeping with many women other then me, but we were in a divorce process but I had a month of doubt about the divorce. He was begging to get me back the whole time and professing his undying love, and claimed to have nobody else in his life. This time when I discovered the OW I wasn't as upset because it just solidified my decision but I felt bad for the OW. I know how thorough his lies are and was sure she was going through what I had been through with him before. The thing that boggled my mind was they were living together and I didn't even know. I had been to the house they lived in together with my kids and didn't even know. She was told I was his crazy X and never to contact me because I would take his visitation with the kids away. But when I found through a friend about her I went through phone records and went to calling the numbers on there. I discovered about 3 other OW other then this one I am talking about. I called her to talk with her about all of this and did tell her about the other women along with myself. I don't know if I owed this to her, but I knew that If roles were reversed I would want to know. She told me there were lots of things that made her think he had been cheating but didn't know how to catch him. She was thankful and I never slept with him again. She unfortunately, for her, continued to put up with his behavior for a year or even a little longer. I butted out and let them both self destruct alone.
lilbunny Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 If I have read the situation right I am taking it that the separated man has claimed his m is over, divorce in the pipeline etc and all of this is a complete lie. I don't think the BS or OW owe each other anything. At the same time I think the best thing for both of them in that situation would be to realise that the man in the middle of this was the villain of the piece and stick together on it. I'd want to know. If I was the one who discovered it, I'd tell in a heartbeat, no question.
LucreziaBorgia Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 I think informing someone is the ethical thing to do, if for no other reason it allows the person more choices - however... It is hard to accept and believe information from someone who has a vested interest in seeing you fail.
Author Spark1111 Posted October 2, 2010 Author Posted October 2, 2010 I have done this but only when I was still intimate with my H(separated and considering reconciliation). I found out that he was again sleeping with many women other then me, but we were in a divorce process but I had a month of doubt about the divorce. He was begging to get me back the whole time and professing his undying love, and claimed to have nobody else in his life. This time when I discovered the OW I wasn't as upset because it just solidified my decision but I felt bad for the OW. I know how thorough his lies are and was sure she was going through what I had been through with him before. The thing that boggled my mind was they were living together and I didn't even know. I had been to the house they lived in together with my kids and didn't even know. She was told I was his crazy X and never to contact me because I would take his visitation with the kids away. But when I found through a friend about her I went through phone records and went to calling the numbers on there. I discovered about 3 other OW other then this one I am talking about. I called her to talk with her about all of this and did tell her about the other women along with myself. I don't know if I owed this to her, but I knew that If roles were reversed I would want to know. She told me there were lots of things that made her think he had been cheating but didn't know how to catch him. She was thankful and I never slept with him again. She unfortunately, for her, continued to put up with his behavior for a year or even a little longer. I butted out and let them both self destruct alone. This seems very similiar Porter. She claimed they were still intimate on occasion and had no idea he had so many others at that time until she intercepted the phone bill. Whenever I hear a true story of the OW and BS actually deciding to trust each other, I am amazed the info discovered by both parties as to the lies having been told them. And I must say the OW confronted him, and while he totally dismissed his wife's version of events, (remember, he had explained his close female "friends" to his OW) he was way too interested, IMHO, in WHAT his W said and her tone of voice, blah, blah, blah..... As a neutral observer in the workplace, I sensed this MM LOVED the drama, and in some way, still wanted to punish or rile his wife. He also was very upset that his OW took the call and that upset her. In the workplace, however, their was no way for her to NOT take the call of the W.
Author Spark1111 Posted October 2, 2010 Author Posted October 2, 2010 If I have read the situation right I am taking it that the separated man has claimed his m is over, divorce in the pipeline etc and all of this is a complete lie. I don't think the BS or OW owe each other anything. At the same time I think the best thing for both of them in that situation would be to realise that the man in the middle of this was the villain of the piece and stick together on it. I'd want to know. If I was the one who discovered it, I'd tell in a heartbeat, no question. Lilbunny, this is how I feel.....yet so many believe you never take the BS's call. Okay, true, she could be calling to lambast the OW and she very well might. But what if it is this type of phone call? I think the affair dynamic is intentional to keep the two parties from ever trusting each other enough to compare notes. And that is a shame, because you just might learn something.
porter218 Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 Lilbunny, this is how I feel.....yet so many believe you never take the BS's call. Okay, true, she could be calling to lambast the OW and she very well might. But what if it is this type of phone call? I think the affair dynamic is intentional to keep the two parties from ever trusting each other enough to compare notes. And that is a shame, because you just might learn something. This is so true. My xH had many many OW through the years our M lasted so I've run in to all types. The most frustrating is the one who covers for him because he has convinced her that I'll take the kids away:rolleyes: and insists they are only friends or even that they don't know each other at all. A couple of them have gone so far as to say " Oh, he is just friends with my bf I don't really even talk to him" . The couple that did actually take my call and speak openly with me were very refreshing. It allowed me to finally move on and for them to as well(till the last one). I spent maybe 4hrs on the phone with the last one comparing notes and realized this guy is a pro. His lies are incredible. Funny enough when she found out I had GPS on his phone that I never deactivated she started to call me to see where he was. This is how she started to catch him in lies as well. She told me one day that "it's amazing how he turned me against you for so long so I wouldn't talk to you, he really painted one hell of a different story then who you really are". She expected me to be vindictive and unstable. She was completely floored when I was so nice and calm. After all was said and done with that I've remained civil and friendly with her. She even came crying to me one night(after the divorce was final) to ask for relationship advice on how to deal with him...and boy that was an interesting conversation. A MMs best tactic is to make the OW and the BS not trust each other so that they will not compare notes. When he looses that power he is f*cked.
lilbunny Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 Lilbunny, this is how I feel.....yet so many believe you never take the BS's call. Okay, true, she could be calling to lambast the OW and she very well might. My take on that is that I did what I did, I knew she exisited, if she wants to scream blue murder at me then I pretty much deserve it and I'll suck it up and take it and I'd tell her anything she wanted to know. But what if it is this type of phone call? I think the affair dynamic is intentional to keep the two parties from ever trusting each other enough to compare notes. And that is a shame, because you just might learn something. I accidently discovered the xmm used the same pet name to refer to both of us, comparing notes would be an enlightening experience for both of us I think.
pureinheart Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 I wasn't sure where to post this initially. An ethics debate, though. I have read the viewpoint that the AP does not owe anything to the BS; that it is MP breaking the vows and the BS should take up their issues with their spouse. Some say true; some say true but have compassion if contacted; some say not true. Okay, how about this scenario: Separated MM, claims to his OW to be heading for divorce. His W, however, is still hoping to reconcile with him, unbeknownst to his OW. His W, on DDAY for her, apparently discovers not only his OW, but daily contact with several other single or divorced women, and thinks hiw OW should know she is not the only woman he has been seeing and speaking to. Does the BS owe this information to the OW? Regardless of the motivation of telling this information, would you want to be informed if your MP had other men or women they were seeing or speaking to on such a regular basis as to be......suspect? Would you want to know? In answer to the question: No I think motivation (the motive behind the motive) is everything, this is the ethics IMO. I think it is an individual decision, and if the heart is right, so shall the outcome...
pureinheart Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 I think informing someone is the ethical thing to do, if for no other reason it allows the person more choices - however... It is hard to accept and believe information from someone who has a vested interest in seeing you fail. This is very true...
20Seconds Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 When I get particularly annoyed with MM about something I always feel I would love to compare notes. My first question would be, how the hell do you put up with his snoring? To repsond to the OP I would like to know, yes. But I can;t imagine many scenarios where it would be likely to happen.
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