2themoon&back Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 You sound as though you are in a lot of pain, and Im sorry for that. My wife would very much agree with alot of your veiws. i am in a lot of pain.... that is mostly my own doing!! i have to say if i have said anything here that would bridge the gap between a BS and an OW... i feel i have done something right ... i am glad that your wife would agree with a lot of my views... it means that i have not lost all decency in myself because of my actions and thank you for being interested in anything i would have to say... i am humbled and grateful!
2themoon&back Posted September 30, 2010 Posted September 30, 2010 tothemoon - Our experiences , actions, and consequences sound VERY similar - you were OW and I was BS. After my H's final infidelity, I knew I had to leave. I love him and know he loves me and it broke my heart - but for obvious reasons I had to extricate myself, to protect myself from him. I did not expose the scope of his infidelity simply because I felt it better for me not to. But the divorce got ugly and I did not back down and did threaten exposure to get what I wanted. He hates me now. Which breaks my heart more but I needed him too because I needed that door to be locked and I was not strong enough to turn the key myself. Since then, our social circle which is also my professional circle has labeled me a ball buster, a gold digger, heartless, etc. I have been publicly blamed for his career slipping, for fighting dirty. Among those previously closer it has been said that I cannot keep a man, that it is I who cheated , that I have emotional problems and anger management issues. I have changed jobs and cities. I was married to him 5 years. I loved him with every breath I took. He was a serial cheater, he risked me, my daughter, my health and my emotional well being every time he thought he needed a little outside validation. But I'm the outcast because I left. WOW --- we are like the two sides of the same coin--- even though we did some of the same actions for some of the same reasons, yet from the other side of the same issue... and we both got the same treatment!!! i am sorry you were treated badly for taking care of yourself, no one has the right to judge how you do that... no one can decide what is the best for you except you and i am sure you already know this. it is just sad that people will not always see the whole picture as you or as i did ... we were standing in the middle of it all!!! i too am sorry your xH could not do any better by you (take responsibility for his actions and stop, or leave, either way would have been kinder… and it sounds like he still does not take any responsibility…what should he hate you for … not staying and having your heart broke at his will, but deciding for yourself when would be the last time it would be broke by him), but i am glad to see you have plenty of courage and have an open mind, even in relating to me, an OW, so thank you for sharing with me and showing me that-- as people without the labels, that we are still just people no matter what side of the fence we are on!!! i wish you the very best and i want to say i think you are to be applauded for your abilities to see the big picture and for taking care of yourself!! I am honored by your post !!!! and if you are an outcast and so am i ... then i would have to say i am ok with that and am in good company !!!
Spark1111 Posted October 1, 2010 Posted October 1, 2010 i am in a lot of pain.... that is mostly my own doing!! i have to say if i have said anything here that would bridge the gap between a BS and an OW... i feel i have done something right ... i am glad that your wife would agree with a lot of my views... it means that i have not lost all decency in myself because of my actions and thank you for being interested in anything i would have to say... i am humbled and grateful! 2themoon.... I would have applauded an OW like you who wanted to force the truth of the situation, who wanted to break free from the secrecy and actually resolve the secrecy and deception. I never blamed her for falling for the same man I fell in love with. I thought that made us both human. But she protected him and his lies at all costs: Never returning a phone call and then claiming to him I had been "vicious." As if that would win him away from me. All it did was show her level of desperation in trying and doing anything to keep him. Even lying to him about me. Because he had been standing right next to me when I placed the call offering an olive branch and seeking closure if there was anything she wanted to talk to me about, and it was kind and concerned and nothing near vicious. So I personally applaud your reasons for why you did what you did. I would have welcomed that above the scenario I had to deal with.
wheelwright Posted October 1, 2010 Posted October 1, 2010 So, I've been thinking a lot based on a few recent threads. There seem to be 2 different "camps" of thinking regarding post affair treatment of both BS & OW. Camp one (call it the OW camp) says both women should be treated the same by the fWS. Both should be given equally good treatment. The fWS (assuming he went back to the BS) should never make any negative or derogatory comments about her - should not "throw her under the bus". He should give her "closure". This camp takes the stand that the MM apparently thought enough of the OW to have a relationship with her, he should treat her well. Camp two (call it the BS camp) says the BS should be the complete focus of attention for the fWS. He should not necessarily say derogatory comments about the fOW, but if he does that is understandable (at least in some situations). This camps says the OW was fully aware that he was married and therefore knew of the possible consequences of having the relationship. She is responsible for having made the choice of being in the relationship and therefore should pick herself up and move along if it doesn't work out. To be completely honest, I'm somewhat torn between the two camps. On the one hand, I feel that all people should be treated respectfully. On the other hand she is responsible for her own choice of participating in a relationship with a married man. So I "get" both camps, and a portion of me agrees with both. What I guess I don't get - and is the real reason for this post is that back in my single days of dating, I didn't expect (nor did I give) hearts and flowers at the end of a relationship. If things didn't work out, they didn't work out. Yeah, the guy could have been all full of "I love you and want to spend my life with you", but sh*t happens, and I love you and want to spend my life with you can and does turn into "what was I thinking! You aren't the person I thought you were!" on a number of issues. I didn't expect him to go out of his way to break up nicely - and I guess I wasn't all that gentle with some of my breakups either. Hey, it was nice, it's over, move along... So.... what's the difference or is there a difference if the romance is illicit? It appears to me (and I could easily be dead wrong and just out of the dating game for waaayyyy to long to relate) that more is expected by women at the end of an EMA then at the end of an affair. BTW, this is not intended to be rude or start a flame war. I simply would like a discussion. !! How many Rs end with NC started after a DDay? When the partner has told you they love you hours before? Yes, that is different to a normal R death. I had a brief skirmish with being a 'bunny boiler' when my xAP texted that he thought about me every minute of every day after 1 year NC, and two days later I found he had had another EM ONS. After I texted him numerous times with questions about this (the love he still felt and the OOW) which he blanked, I called out to him and his BS across the street that 'he said he loved me and you told me you never loved him' (which was true). I was insane at the time, and would hope I could normally hold it all in. If he had treated me with a closure conversation at the end of the A, this would not have happened. I don't like that I 'lost it' but I do perceive that my actions were not malicious. They were about my confusion. The bunnies I boiled were not about hurting others - just about trying to find a way through the pain. I wanted an answer that I was not given. About closure, love, the reasons for DDay. And I felt, and still do, that I had a right to that. Even if you tell someone you love them and inside it turns out not to be true, if you know they love you, you owe them decency, which does not equate to blanking them in the street. I also suspect that my series of texts at that time - about the love and the OOW would have been reported to his BS as me being a 'bunny boiler'. Because it doesn't matter what he says about me now. Especially if it saves the M. Suspicions are horrible to deal with - my karma I guess. Sometimes BBoiler might be over-reported perhaps? In all honesty, I feel if his W hadn't told me she had never loved her H, then I would deserve what was coming to me. But as it stands, I feel I deserve better treatment and more honesty. But that won't happen. He loved me and can't tell the BS that. And he chose to stay with her. (Oh and by the way, I maintained 1 year NC with no BBoiler tendencies until the 'love' text and the OOW news) It all depends on how the s**t goes down. 'You could have done better, but I don't mind. Don't think twice, it's alright.' Which is quite how the BS feels. So yes, they both deserve to be treated as well as possible at the end. Oh yes, and there is possibly no worse emotional injury to inflict on another than to make them feel like they are your heaven sent soulmate, and to drop them before you take another breath.
pureinheart Posted October 1, 2010 Posted October 1, 2010 Thomas, I agree that the truth should be revealed fully, if those are the wishes of the BS. The truth to the rest of the world? I guess that is debatable, we all have our own opinions on that. edited to add: congratulations on your recovery. I wish many years of happiness for you and your wife. It is not an easy road. IMO it is way uncool on any level. I don't believe I have the right, NO MATTER WHAT, to talk about anybody elses business, even if I am involved. The things that do involve me, I will talk to that person about them. I can take a SWAG at why TB's BS 'exposed' the affair to the world. I'd guess that she did so to prevent a relapse by TB back into the affair...which we all know is entirely common for affairs. She had no reason to care what the potential consequences would be to OW...nothing to lose if it upset or offended OW...but everything to gain if it created an environment that would/did prevent the affair from resuming at a later date. I 'exposed' my wife's affair to our friends and family in a (successful) effort to end the affair. I had no way to expose it to any of OM's friends or family, and didn't make an effort to do so...but would have felt absolutely no remorse or regret if word did get back to his friends/family. And if you stop and look at TB's situation...what his wife did was EFFECTIVE when you get right down to it. If this was the case, then I would say leave, if you don't trust the person, or put them on a leash, that IMO is control. If a person is going to cheat they will. (2nd bold) Owl, I'm totally shocked, you know I respect the hell outta you, and like after you posted in the OM/OW forum that wonderful post of trust directly after D-Day, I don't understand... Owl, my ex's all cheated on me...I left all of them but one, he left me (for OW) I never told anyone because that was between me and them. I was unable to reconcile because my heart was way too hard and I walked in unforgiveness....still it was up to them to tell if they wanted. The two posts today don't make sense to me...no disrespect BTW, can you give clarity...I hope you know I think a lot of you Owl:)
Silly_Girl Posted October 1, 2010 Posted October 1, 2010 I don't believe in the fog. I believe in being in love but being in love does not mean you lose your mind. I agree. It's a state of mind, like stress or exhaustion. We're still responsible for our actions and still make choices. We're still fundamentally the same person underneath.
xxoo Posted October 1, 2010 Posted October 1, 2010 I agree. It's a state of mind, like stress or exhaustion. We're still responsible for our actions and still make choices. We're still fundamentally the same person underneath. It is interesting to me that you chose stress and exhaustion as examples. Those are two states of mind when I have such horrible judgment, and become unrealistically pessimistic. I have learned over the years to table things until I get rested and can better see the realities. After a good night's sleep--or a break--I can easily see solutions that seemed "impossible" when I was stressed and exhausted. Maybe it depends on the person somewhat? Given the comparison of stress or exhaustion, the effects of the "fog" become even more understandable to me--but in the opposite direction (unrealistically optimistic, rather than pessimistic).
Silly_Girl Posted October 1, 2010 Posted October 1, 2010 It is interesting to me that you chose stress and exhaustion as examples. Those are two states of mind when I have such horrible judgment, and become unrealistically pessimistic. I have learned over the years to table things until I get rested and can better see the realities. After a good night's sleep--or a break--I can easily see solutions that seemed "impossible" when I was stressed and exhausted. Maybe it depends on the person somewhat? Given the comparison of stress or exhaustion, the effects of the "fog" become even more understandable to me--but in the opposite direction (unrealistically optimistic, rather than pessimistic). I've experienced both those, and they do horrible things to you. But my point is they don't make you become someone else. Couldn't use 'temporary insanity due to affair fog' in a murder case for example. It's us, but it's us when our views are possibly skewed. It's the word 'unrealistic' I don't think I agree with, I think. I've been bullied at work, until I was very ill, but I didn't just quit. I sought help and I made notes and some other stuff, then I quit. I don't think a spouse leaving a marriage can be attributed to 'affair fog' I think I'm trying to say. We're still accountable and we're still making choices.
xxoo Posted October 1, 2010 Posted October 1, 2010 I don't think a spouse leaving a marriage can be attributed to 'affair fog' I think I'm trying to say. We're still accountable and we're still making choices. Yes to the bolded! But some fWS report regretting leaving the marriage (or considering it), and attribute it to affair fog. They are still accountable, but made choices they wouldn't have made in a "clearer" state of mind.
xxoo Posted October 1, 2010 Posted October 1, 2010 (2nd bold) Owl, I'm totally shocked, you know I respect the hell outta you, and like after you posted in the OM/OW forum that wonderful post of trust directly after D-Day, I don't understand... Owl, my ex's all cheated on me...I left all of them but one, he left me (for OW) I never told anyone because that was between me and them. I was unable to reconcile because my heart was way too hard and I walked in unforgiveness....still it was up to them to tell if they wanted. The two posts today don't make sense to me...no disrespect BTW, can you give clarity...I hope you know I think a lot of you Owl:) Are you referring to the post about spirituality, and how Owl prayed for God's pure will in the course of his wife's affair? If so, I don't see the contradiction. Can you explain? Maybe Owl's decision to expose was guided by God's will.
Silly_Girl Posted October 1, 2010 Posted October 1, 2010 Yes to the bolded! But some fWS report regretting leaving the marriage (or considering it), and attribute it to affair fog. They are still accountable, but made choices they wouldn't have made in a "clearer" state of mind. I think it's a little bit of poetic licence, to be honest. And very easy to say after the event.
HappyAtLast Posted October 1, 2010 Posted October 1, 2010 Are you referring to the post about spirituality, and how Owl prayed for God's pure will in the course of his wife's affair? If so, I don't see the contradiction. Can you explain? Maybe Owl's decision to expose was guided by God's will. I may be wrong, but I thought that in Owl's situation he discovered the affair rather than his wife confessing it. I personally believe that "being caught" vs "confessing" are two very different situations and require different actions.
HappyAtLast Posted October 1, 2010 Posted October 1, 2010 IMO it is way uncool on any level. I don't believe I have the right, NO MATTER WHAT, to talk about anybody elses business, even if I am involved. The things that do involve me, I will talk to that person about them. If this was the case, then I would say leave, if you don't trust the person, or put them on a leash, that IMO is control. If a person is going to cheat they will. (2nd bold) Owl, I'm totally shocked, you know I respect the hell outta you, and like after you posted in the OM/OW forum that wonderful post of trust directly after D-Day, I don't understand... Owl, my ex's all cheated on me...I left all of them but one, he left me (for OW) I never told anyone because that was between me and them. I was unable to reconcile because my heart was way too hard and I walked in unforgiveness....still it was up to them to tell if they wanted. The two posts today don't make sense to me...no disrespect BTW, can you give clarity...I hope you know I think a lot of you Owl:) To be clear (in case I was not) I personally do not condone the "tell all" approach. While I do understand and acknowledge that it has worked for many, when I was a BS I chose to not go that route.
Spark1111 Posted October 1, 2010 Posted October 1, 2010 To be clear (in case I was not) I personally do not condone the "tell all" approach. While I do understand and acknowledge that it has worked for many, when I was a BS I chose to not go that route. Okay, I want to be very clear here. IF YOU want to save your marriage, exposure is reccommended because once the exciting and illicit nature of an affair is exposed to the light of day, it forces the WS to make a choice, period, and it allows the BS to also make an informed choice. This is not about control. This is about finally having honesty and making informed choices for the future, whether together or apart. And IF you do NOT WANT to save your marriage, and are reeling from the betrayal, you really could care less whether you disclose the affair relationship or not. Why in the world would I care to protect the reputations of two people who betrayed me in the very worst sense of the word by keeping their secret affair still secret? Why, in that devastating trauma, would I be expected to take some sort or moral highroad of public protection? When I and our children had been left so unprotected? I mean, that just laughable to me. As Bent says, no one got killed and we all stayed out of jail. That's about as much as I could muster after DDay. No revenge, but no secret keeping either. It was an affair with a work colleague. And that is the truth! So why not speak it?
bentnotbroken Posted October 1, 2010 Posted October 1, 2010 Okay, I want to be very clear here. IF YOU want to save your marriage, exposure is reccommended because once the exciting and illicit nature of an affair is exposed to the light of day, it forces the WS to make a choice, period, and it allows the BS to also make an informed choice. This is not about control. This is about finally having honesty and making informed choices for the future, whether together or apart. And IF you do NOT WANT to save your marriage, and are reeling from the betrayal, you really could care less whether you disclose the affair relationship or not. Why in the world would I care to protect the reputations of two people who betrayed me in the very worst sense of the word by keeping their secret affair still secret? Why, in that devastating trauma, would I be expected to take some sort or moral highroad of public protection? When I and our children had been left so unprotected? I mean, that just laughable to me. As Bent says, no one got killed and we all stayed out of jail. That's about as much as I could muster after DDay. No revenge, but no secret keeping either. It was an affair with a work colleague. And that is the truth! So why not speak it? Exactly! Why is the BS job to protect 2 people who by virtue of the affair did not protect the BS. If a person chooses to engage in an affair, then they should be willing to deal with ALL that accompanies that affair with the diginity and grace they expect the BS to demonstrate. Why hide it? If it's what you want shout it from the roof tops.
HappyAtLast Posted October 1, 2010 Posted October 1, 2010 Ladies - I am not saying it is about control, nor am I suggesting that you should care about protect anyone's reputation. I am just a very private person and did not handle my wife's affair in that way. I am in no way saying that you should not do what is the right thing for you and for your marriage. I will say this though, I did not want to be the guy in town that everyone know his wife was running around on him. And this was not to protect her, it was to protect me. (a pride thing?)/
bentnotbroken Posted October 1, 2010 Posted October 1, 2010 Ladies - I am not saying it is about control, nor am I suggesting that you should care about protect anyone's reputation. I am just a very private person and did not handle my wife's affair in that way. I am in no way saying that you should not do what is the right thing for you and for your marriage. I will say this though, I did not want to be the guy in town that everyone know his wife was running around on him. And this was not to protect her, it was to protect me. (a pride thing?)/ I do understand what you are saying. I really do. In my case they were running around town when he thought I was too out of it to know he wasn't in bed. So they let their secrets out themselves. Others knew well before I did. So when the questions came I didn't deny anything. It was a pride thing;):laugh:for me too.
Owl Posted October 1, 2010 Posted October 1, 2010 IMO it is way uncool on any level. I don't believe I have the right, NO MATTER WHAT, to talk about anybody elses business, even if I am involved. The things that do involve me, I will talk to that person about them. If this was the case, then I would say leave, if you don't trust the person, or put them on a leash, that IMO is control. If a person is going to cheat they will. (2nd bold) Owl, I'm totally shocked, you know I respect the hell outta you, and like after you posted in the OM/OW forum that wonderful post of trust directly after D-Day, I don't understand... Owl, my ex's all cheated on me...I left all of them but one, he left me (for OW) I never told anyone because that was between me and them. I was unable to reconcile because my heart was way too hard and I walked in unforgiveness....still it was up to them to tell if they wanted. The two posts today don't make sense to me...no disrespect BTW, can you give clarity...I hope you know I think a lot of you Owl:) No problem, Pure. You've in no way offended me. I have to admit tho, I don't understand the reason you're shocked by my posts? I'm not sure what it was about this that surprised/shocked you...that I exposed the affair? Look at it from another viewpoint real quick. We had (at that time) 16+ years of wonderful marriage...with that last year being very uncharacteristically bad. My wife had been avoiding dealing with undiagnosed depression, an addiction to online gaming, and then on top of that she got involved in an online EA with OM. At d-day, my wife was making life plans with a man she couldn't have possibly known well enough to even consider doing so if she'd been thinking in any rational way. She was gambling everything, even (IMHO) risking her life to go live with someone she'd never even met in person. In order to get her to stop and think rather than just react, I reached out to our friends and family that I KNEW she'd listen to, because she wasn't willing to listen to me (I had an obvious vested interest in her staying). I didn't ask them to berate/belittle/pick on her. I asked them to get her to stop and think...I asked them to invite her to go live with them as a neutral third party rather than run to live with a guy she met online and couldn't really know. This wasn't done with any anger/hatred/revenge motives...it was done to help her, and to attempt to save our marriage. Exposure (when done right) isn't a vindictive, revenge thing. It should be done as an active measure to end the affair and save the marriage. As far as exposing to OM's friends and family...I didn't do so, but would have absolutely have considered it if it became nessacary. Why wouldn't I? The fallout would have been his to deal with...as a direct result of his choices and actions concerning my wife. As we've seen here time and again, there's nothing "owed" between OM/OW and BS...he showed me no consideration during this. On top of that...what would have been any real fallout for him? His friends/family might have been upset with him, but that probably would have been the extent of it. The bottom line is that this all worked to a degree too. She didn't go to see OM that day. She stayed, indecisively at first. But then she started talking with her sister, and with my sisters, and with her friends. Who all discussed this with her, and were able to do so because of my exposure. End result...recovery. And no action was taken in anger or with any intent to hurt anyone...exactly the opposite, everything was done out of love and concern for my wife.
donnamaybe Posted October 1, 2010 Posted October 1, 2010 Face it, folks. Some people can't handle having their bad behaviors brought into the light of day. Whether it happens by design or by chance, the possibilty remains that it COULD happen. If someone doesn't want people to know about their behaviors lest their behaviors make them look bad, then perhaps they should alter their behaviors.
Owl Posted October 1, 2010 Posted October 1, 2010 Pure- After giving it some more thought, I think I see where you percieve to be the conflict. Given that my answer is more around the religious aspects, I'm going to respond on the other thread in the OW forum, as I think it fits that thread's topic more appropriately.
Spark1111 Posted October 1, 2010 Posted October 1, 2010 Face it, folks. Some people can't handle having their bad behaviors brought into the light of day. Whether it happens by design or by chance, the possibilty remains that it COULD happen. If someone doesn't want people to know about their behaviors lest their behaviors make them look bad, then perhaps they should alter their behaviors. Well, yes, that is it exactly! And you know, I DO UNDERSTAND the humiliation involved with being exposed as a WS, and being then known as the spouse of the cheater too. But I wracked my brain and my being for ownership of any problems in the marriage and there were problems, and I did own my share of them. But I concluded that nothing I did or did not do in the relationship made me in any way, shape or form, responsible for my H's affair. And all the friends and families who had shared our hard times with us, who were cheering us on as we were climbing out of the dark hole years, were stunned, absolutely stunned when they heard or found out. And I was shocked at who knew or suspected in our small region of the universe we inhabited WAY BEFORE I DID. So, my WS and his OW were absolutely fixated on keeping their affair secret from me, but so many people already suspected. I should now keep quiet after DDAY? That's just laughable to me.
Snowflower Posted October 1, 2010 Posted October 1, 2010 (edited) I may be wrong, but I thought that in Owl's situation he discovered the affair rather than his wife confessing it. I personally believe that "being caught" vs "confessing" are two very different situations and require different actions. This is an interesting discussion about whether the BS should expose or not expose. Related to what HAL said above, I think the decision to tell all by the BS depends a lot on how the affair was made known to the BS. This is all so individual--it depends on the BS, the actual D-day situation and I think to some extent, the WS. As a BS, I did not choose to expose the affair to anyone and everyone we knew. My husband confessed, which according to HAL's post above, that might have made some difference in my decision. My closest friend was with me at the time he told me so obviously she knew. In the coming days I told my sister and a few close friends of mine...for support only. My WH, on the other hand, told his immediate family what he had done...after he told me. So, he exposed his affair on his own. So, I think it depends a lot on the situation immediately following D-day and the couple involved. I never wanted to tell everyone in our lives for a lot of reasons. It was so personal...ultimately it would have to be worked about between my H and me. But that was me. I can understand the rationale behind total exposure and agree with it if it works for the BS in the post-d-day trauma. It is interesting to me though that many WS/AP feel/assume that total exposure by the BS is done for vengeful reasons..to embarrass the WS/AP or for control. I would love to know why this is. Edited October 1, 2010 by Snowflower Spelling!
Silly_Girl Posted October 1, 2010 Posted October 1, 2010 My personal feelings on exposure is that if it benefits the healing of the BS, that's reason enough.
HappyAtLast Posted October 1, 2010 Posted October 1, 2010 My WH, on the other hand, told his immediate family what he had done...after he told me. So, he exposed his affair on his own. That is an excellent point.
HappyAtLast Posted October 1, 2010 Posted October 1, 2010 Well, yes, that is it exactly! And you know, I DO UNDERSTAND the humiliation involved with being exposed as a WS, and being then known as the spouse of the cheater too. But I wracked my brain and my being for ownership of any problems in the marriage and there were problems, and I did own my share of them. But I concluded that nothing I did or did not do in the relationship made me in any way, shape or form, responsible for my H's affair. And all the friends and families who had shared our hard times with us, who were cheering us on as we were climbing out of the dark hole years, were stunned, absolutely stunned when they heard or found out. And I was shocked at who knew or suspected in our small region of the universe we inhabited WAY BEFORE I DID. So, my WS and his OW were absolutely fixated on keeping their affair secret from me, but so many people already suspected. I should now keep quiet after DDAY? That's just laughable to me. You keep repeating this. I hope it is not directed towards me as I in no way shape or form said or think that the BS should keep quiet.
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