Do the OW & BS "deserve" the same....

[xxoo]

I may have misread Thomas post, or maybe it was just the way he worded it, but it seemed like when he said "she revealed all to everyone and forced OW... etc" sounded more like she was doing more than simply trying to get support. Seeking support for yourself is one thing, broadcasting a situation to the world is sort of another, don't you think? Two different motivations, I think.

 

Two different motivations, yes. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a little bit of each in motivation in play.

 

Full agreement on not being the brightest choice for the MP!

 

On the topic of what each party "deserves", I do not believe anyone "deserves" that their behaviors stay secret. The OP/MP do not deserve secrecy, and should not be surprised or outraged if the BS tells people what they did. It says something if the "retaliation" is simply telling truths. If people can retaliate against you by speaking the truth of your actions, you should look at your actions.

[freestyle]

Two different motivations, yes. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a little bit of each in motivation in play.

 

Full agreement on not being the brightest choice for the MP!

 

On the topic of what each party "deserves", I do not believe anyone "deserves" that their behaviors stay secret. The OP/MP do not deserve secrecy, and should not be surprised or outraged if the BS tells people what they did. It says something if the "retaliation" is simply telling truths. If people can retaliate against you by speaking the truth of your actions, you should look at your actions.

 

very well said!!! As long is the unembellished truth is told, I see nothing wrong with speaking it.

[kuma]

They must always be prepared to deal with those consequences.

 

If we lived in a perfect world, I would agree with you. Do you remember NASA love triangle case? MM, OW and OOW were all astronauts. The OW wanted to kill the OOW. I don't think her MM was prepared to deal with that.

[donnamaybe]

If people can retaliate against you by speaking the truth of your actions, you should look at your actions.

Wow. Never quite thought of it that way, but you're right on the money.

[HappyAtLast]

I don't disagree regarding the truth, in theory. But, it is my personal opinion that the truth should be used sparingly, in couples who are reconciling. (Meaning choosing carefully in whom you confide).

 

People are people. Your loved ones may never feel the same way about the cheater again, even if you decide to. This could lead to many years of bad blood, which may not necessarily be the healthiest thing when trying to reconcile, or even when fully reconciled.

 

On a personal note, I am a very private person, so I have never chosen to air any sort of dirty laundry in public, even when I was a BS. But, that's just me and I certainly can acknowledge that some folks choose to do it differently.

[thomasb]

I have to call you on that one, Happy. To have a true reconcilliation, there has to be total truth disclosed. There can be no more lies and half truths. But you are now with OW, didn't you say. I am now 12 years into full recovery. And truly open and honest with my wife and family. I made my peace with her and with my God.

[HappyAtLast]

Thomas, I agree that the truth should be revealed fully, if those are the wishes of the BS. The truth to the rest of the world? I guess that is debatable, we all have our own opinions on that.

 

edited to add: congratulations on your recovery. I wish many years of happiness for you and your wife. It is not an easy road.

[Owl]

I can take a SWAG at why TB's BS 'exposed' the affair to the world.

 

I'd guess that she did so to prevent a relapse by TB back into the affair...which we all know is entirely common for affairs.

 

She had no reason to care what the potential consequences would be to OW...nothing to lose if it upset or offended OW...but everything to gain if it created an environment that would/did prevent the affair from resuming at a later date.

 

I 'exposed' my wife's affair to our friends and family in a (successful) effort to end the affair. I had no way to expose it to any of OM's friends or family, and didn't make an effort to do so...but would have felt absolutely no remorse or regret if word did get back to his friends/family.

 

And if you stop and look at TB's situation...what his wife did was EFFECTIVE when you get right down to it.

[HappyAtLast]

And if you stop and look at TB's situation...what his wife did was EFFECTIVE when you get right down to it.

 

Cannot argue with you there.

[thomasb]

Right on the money, as usual Owl. And thank you, Happy.

[silktricks]

An interesting point, silk. It makes me wonder whether that should be applied to the end of a marriage as well? (Also not intending to start a flame war, just taking this to the next step.)

 

I'm coming at this from the perspective of a former BS (now divorced); after DDay, I was of course devastated, and even moreso because the exH seemed so surprised that I wasn't prepared to just shake hands and move on. His own perspective at the time was "shXt happens, get over it" and he actually said at one point, "I just don't love you anymore, why is that so hard to understand?" (Charming.)

 

Of course, you're talking about situations in which the WS breaks up with the OP. But if the reverse is the case, I wonder what treatment it's fair for the BS to expect? Guess that's a question for OW. I'm thinking of Brokenlady's thread - not trying to flame her, I think she's doing the best she can under the circumstances - but that is a situation where people want the BS to move on with her life and she (the BS) clearly doesn't have closure and feels entitled to more.

 

Eh, I don't know the answer but it is an interesting question.

 

I'm not sure what's right morally/philosophically, but from a pragmatic point of view, I suspect the WS is usually going to treat well the person whose good graces s/he values more highly - that is, the one s/he wants to reconcile with. The other person is more likely to get thrown under the bus for expediency's sake, I suppose.

Sorry I didn't reply to this earlier, I meant to but got caught up. Anyway, IMHO I believe (personally) that a breakup should be graceful (as graceful as possible) for all parties. I don't think that a marriage gives either partner a right to have a deathgrip on the other. Sometimes (too often ) marriages do break up. Assuming that one party wants to leave, then let that person go. Holding tight does neither person any good in the long run. Marriage does not confer on anyone IMO the right to manage the other persons life.

 

I actually believe that longevity of relationship confers more "rights" than do the marriage vows. If an exclusive relationship lasts in excess of 5 or 6 years, then usually there is a fair amount of trauma involved in the break-up. If the relationship is 20 or more years, then the trauma could be horrible. Doesn't mean it can't and/or shouldn't happen, but I do believe the person being left "deserves" some fairly gentle treatment at the hands of the person doing the leaving.

 

You'll note though that I did use the word exclusive. There is a part of me (and I'll admit that it's not going to go over well here) that is of the opinion that if a person is fully aware of the fact that they are in a non-exclusive relationship that is fairly long then in my opinion (and it is my opinion ONLY) that person is not taking good enough care of themselves. (I am not including open marriages here. I am talking about people who actually WANT an exclusive relationship, but are for one reason or another accepting less).

 

Do they DESERVE gentle treatment if they are left? Absolutely. Can they expect it? There's the rub... I (personally) don't think they can. IMO if a person doesn't respect their lover enough to provide an exclusive relationship within a lengthy period of time, when (if) they decide to break it off, they will continue in the same self-absorbed manner. I don't think they actually see their lover(s) as anything more than an extension of their own desires, to be picked up or dropped on their whim.

 

I agree completely with your ending thought. I believe that the MM in an EMA triangle will treat best the person with whom he wants to continue the relationship.

[silktricks]

I don't disagree regarding the truth, in theory. But, it is my personal opinion that the truth should be used sparingly, in couples who are reconciling. (Meaning choosing carefully in whom you confide).

 

People are people. Your loved ones may never feel the same way about the cheater again, even if you decide to. This could lead to many years of bad blood, which may not necessarily be the healthiest thing when trying to reconcile, or even when fully reconciled.

 

On a personal note, I am a very private person, so I have never chosen to air any sort of dirty laundry in public, even when I was a BS. But, that's just me and I certainly can acknowledge that some folks choose to do it differently.

 

I am in complete agreement with you here. Including especially the last paragraph. I chose to tell no one about it. Would I have been as circumspect if she was in the same "circle" as us? Probably not, as I would have wanted people to understand why I would never again be willing to be in the same room with her . But like you, HAL, I wouldn't have wanted to expose my husband to bad feelings from the family and/or friends, since we were working at reconciling. Had the reconciliation failed I would have been more willing to let some people know what happened, but even then would not have broadcast it to the winds. That's just not me. And, even if we couldn't have managed to fix our marriage, I still care about him as a person and would not want him to be shamed.

 

That worked for us, but I am fully aware of the fact that I am not everyone, and what worked for us may not for other couples.

[Spark1111]

I am in complete agreement with you here. Including especially the last paragraph. I chose to tell no one about it. Would I have been as circumspect if she was in the same "circle" as us? Probably not, as I would have wanted people to understand why I would never again be willing to be in the same room with her . But like you, HAL, I wouldn't have wanted to expose my husband to bad feelings from the family and/or friends, since we were working at reconciling. Had the reconciliation failed I would have been more willing to let some people know what happened, but even then would not have broadcast it to the winds. That's just not me. And, even if we couldn't have managed to fix our marriage, I still care about him as a person and would not want him to be shamed.

 

That worked for us, but I am fully aware of the fact that I am not everyone, and what worked for us may not for other couples.

 

Well, I discovered a 1.5 year passionate, romantic affair, so I was leaving him.

 

What hurt more than the affair, was how cold, angry, and distant he was towards me during the affair. Maybe hoping I'd leave and make it easy for him?

 

When I finally discovered the reason, I was both relieved and outraged. I figured we were done. I threw him out and told him to go get her. I told family and friends found out...so did my adult children.

 

I had all her personal information within 48 hours of discovering her existence, but I never used it vengefully. My anger was with him, not her. Plus, she had a child, and I would never do anything to hurt a child. I wish they had given mine the same consideration.

 

Nevertheless, I did not have to say or do or expose anything. They worked together, and several months later I discovered every woman in that building knew of the inappropriateness of their relationship.

 

So I took the high road. Wish I could have said the same about her.

[2themoon&back]

So, I've been thinking a lot based on a few recent threads. There seem to be 2 different "camps" of thinking regarding post affair treatment of both BS & OW.

 

Camp one (call it the OW camp) says both women should be treated the same by the fWS. Both should be given equally good treatment. The fWS (assuming he went back to the BS) should never make any negative or derogatory comments about her - should not "throw her under the bus". He should give her "closure". This camp takes the stand that the MM apparently thought enough of the OW to have a relationship with her, he should treat her well.

 

Camp two (call it the BS camp) says the BS should be the complete focus of attention for the fWS. He should not necessarily say derogatory comments about the fOW, but if he does that is understandable (at least in some situations). This camps says the OW was fully aware that he was married and therefore knew of the possible consequences of having the relationship. She is responsible for having made the choice of being in the relationship and therefore should pick herself up and move along if it doesn't work out.

 

To be completely honest, I'm somewhat torn between the two camps. On the one hand, I feel that all people should be treated respectfully. On the other hand she is responsible for her own choice of participating in a relationship with a married man. So I "get" both camps, and a portion of me agrees with both.

 

What I guess I don't get - and is the real reason for this post is that back in my single days of dating, I didn't expect (nor did I give) hearts and flowers at the end of a relationship. If things didn't work out, they didn't work out. Yeah, the guy could have been all full of "I love you and want to spend my life with you", but sh*t happens, and I love you and want to spend my life with you can and does turn into "what was I thinking! You aren't the person I thought you were!" on a number of issues. I didn't expect him to go out of his way to break up nicely - and I guess I wasn't all that gentle with some of my breakups either. Hey, it was nice, it's over, move along...

 

So.... what's the difference or is there a difference if the romance is illicit? It appears to me (and I could easily be dead wrong and just out of the dating game for waaayyyy to long to relate) that more is expected by women at the end of an EMA then at the end of an affair.

 

BTW, this is not intended to be rude or start a flame war. I simply would like a discussion. !!

 

as for me i know my own place in the situation, i am and was the OW, and do not feel i should be treated any better than the BS by MM, and no one owes me anything. i knew what i was doing...so if there are no "good" ---good bye’s, than that is just that.

 

with that said i do not believe in the need for MM to bash xOW either, he made a choice there and should not use this as a means to reconcile with W and any BS that excepts this as reassurance may not be seeing the true picture.

[thomasb]

To the Moon, I'm curious about your thoughts on exposure after the affair. You seem to be very level headed.

[donnamaybe]

It was effective, that is true. For me the question is... do I want to be married like that? Is it about making my H toe the line, to keep him on a leash, to control him? Is it about ME doing everything possible to make sure he does not stray? Sorry too stressful for me. I would like to be married to a mature man, who can make his own choices. Who can decide that he wants to be faithful to me because he wants not because I make our whole environment of friends and neighbours control him.

But, according to SO many on LS, OW/OM included, it is so EASY to get lost in "the fog." The fact of so many close people knowledgable of the A doesn't allow that "fog" to hang around without that group of people knowing about its existence. Therefore, if the MM/MW were to begin down that slippery slope again, it would quickly be apparent to everyone, and the MP knows it. If someone knows everyone ELSE knows, they will most likely either leave the M (remember - there IS that option ) or behave themselves as a married person should.

[thomasb]

WITP, obviously my wife does not control me. And I don't control her either. Would never try. And YES, I want a marriage like that. A marriage based on openness, honesty, integrity and honor. No lies and hidden agendas. A mutual respect with no half truths or sharing any part of our intimacy with another man or woman. Only the two of us. Together. And now I have it.

[Dexter Morgan]

Camp one (call it the OW camp) says both women should be treated the same by the fWS. Both should be given equally good treatment. The fWS (assuming he went back to the BS) should never make any negative or derogatory comments about her

 

oh but that doesn't happen:rolleyes:

 

 

- should not "throw her under the bus". He should give her "closure".

 

why?

 

 

This camp takes the stand that the MM apparently thought enough of the OW to have a relationship with her, he should treat her well.

 

OW, that is aware of MM's marital status, is already not being treated well if MM isn't going to leave wife for her.

 

and I can't think of any reason why an OW, or OM for that matter, would demand to be treated well based on the lack of decency shown to the wife.

 

 

 

Camp two (call it the BS camp) says the BS should be the complete focus of attention for the fWS. He should not necessarily say derogatory comments about the fOW, but if he does that is understandable (at least in some situations).

 

derogatory comments about the OW is just smoke and mirrors for the BS. if someone I was with tried this, I'd say, "oh, but he wasn't a piece of s##t enough for you to eff him".

 

 

 

This camps says the OW was fully aware that he was married and therefore knew of the possible consequences of having the relationship. She is responsible for having made the choice of being in the relationship and therefore should pick herself up and move along if it doesn't work out.

 

if in fact the OW did know he was married.....well ya

 

 

To be completely honest, I'm somewhat torn between the two camps. On the one hand, I feel that all people should be treated respectfully.

 

people that don't have respect for someone (i.e. OW has no respect for wife to bed down her husband), doesn't deserve it in return.

 

funny how people will disrespect, yet expect it.

 

 

So.... what's the difference or is there a difference if the romance is illicit? It appears to me (and I could easily be dead wrong and just out of the dating game for waaayyyy to long to relate) that more is expected by women at the end of an EMA then at the end of an affair.

 

dunno. but IMO, someone that is effing someone elses spouse doesn't have the right to expect jack.

 

and disclaimer: yes we all know the MM, MW is the most to blame here. that is probably not even debatable.

[Owl]

It was effective, that is true. For me the question is... do I want to be married like that? Is it about making my H toe the line, to keep him on a leash, to control him? Is it about ME doing everything possible to make sure he does not stray? Sorry too stressful for me. I would like to be married to a mature man, who can make his own choices. Who can decide that he wants to be faithful to me because he wants not because I make our whole environment of friends and neighbours control him.

 

What you're not taking into account is the sheer 'fantasy' of it all. WS's aren't connected to reality when they're in the affair...as TB has indicated.

 

During that time...they're not going to be the kind of person you want/expect them to be.

 

Exposure is that "snap back" to reality for most of them.

 

Don't think that living after an affair means that you spend the rest of your life "checking up on" the fWS, or having to constantly "make them" do anything.

 

Clearly that's not a marriage that anyone would want.

 

It's only needed until that "fog" begins to clear. Once they get their feet back under them, and their heads outta the clouds...there's no need for that kind of action any longer.

[donnamaybe]

What you're not taking into account is the sheer 'fantasy' of it all. WS's aren't connected to reality when they're in the affair...as TB has indicated.

 

During that time...they're not going to be the kind of person you want/expect them to be.

 

Exposure is that "snap back" to reality for most of them.

 

Don't think that living after an affair means that you spend the rest of your life "checking up on" the fWS, or having to constantly "make them" do anything.

 

Clearly that's not a marriage that anyone would want.

 

It's only needed until that "fog" begins to clear. Once they get their feet back under them, and their heads outta the clouds...there's no need for that kind of action any longer.

That's kind of what I was trying to get across as well. You just did it more succinctly and cohesively.

[silktricks]

 

Don't think that living after an affair means that you spend the rest of your life "checking up on" the fWS, or having to constantly "make them" do anything.

 

Clearly that's not a marriage that anyone would want.

 

It's only needed until that "fog" begins to clear. Once they get their feet back under them, and their heads outta the clouds...there's no need for that kind of action any longer.

 

For myself, this wasn't at all the reason I did checking. I did it for me, so I could reassure myself that he wasn't in contact. Once he told me about the affair, he never again made any contact (or accepted any contact) without telling me about it.

 

I slowly lost the need to check-up. It took about 6 months before I felt confidence that all was OK. In all honesty, though, joining LS set me back and about 2 years after everything was over I started checking up again. That lasted a couple months and then I was back on track...

[Owl]

For myself, this wasn't at all the reason I did checking. I did it for me, so I could reassure myself that he wasn't in contact. Once he told me about the affair, he never again made any contact (or accepted any contact) without telling me about it.

 

I slowly lost the need to check-up. It took about 6 months before I felt confidence that all was OK. In all honesty, though, joining LS set me back and about 2 years after everything was over I started checking up again. That lasted a couple months and then I was back on track...

 

Good point, Silk. And I'll agree that this is a good part of the reason I did the "checking up on" for several months afterwards as well.

 

This was how I CONFIRMED that my wife was now trustworthy where she hadn't been during the affair.

 

But on the exposure part of this...its typically a one time thing, as long as it has its desired effect of ending the affair.

[2themoon&back]

To the Moon, I'm curious about your thoughts on exposure after the affair. You seem to be very level headed.

 

well thanks for thinking that all the crazy stuff in my head is level... ha

 

as for exposure of the affair my situation is different... i the OW---exposed the affair to everyone... now let me explain why i did this!

 

the BS knew about the A on 4 different occasions and 3 were while BS was in MC with MM, and did nothing different in the situation but contact me and try to make me make MM be faithful to her, and i told her that was not my job, nor my place-- that i had respected her each time the A was discovered and told her that her H was doing the pursuing.. She did not believe me.

 

i did try unsuccessfully to end the A each time, but MM was relentless in his efforts to keep A going. (sorry to say i was not nor am i strong enough to deny him, and did not want to because i love him)

 

So the last time the A was discovered, i had to be honest with myself and know this would not end if i did not end it.

 

she would keep taking him back and he would still pursue me and i would just cry a lot!! (all the while the A was kept hush hush or swept under the carpet as they say) So i exposed the A after the 4th time, so there would be no way MM would be able to contact me, or get to me, and that BS would have to deal with the real situation of her M, and not me the OW, i was tired of being the BS’s only problem in her M... because i am betting there were problems long before i was on the scene as i am sure there still are problems now that i am gone... i feel i did not help with their problems, I may have just been a distraction for both of them.

 

I would say ... i fell on my sword, not because I was scorned but to stop the cycle and i have been called everything you can imagine and lost my position at work and may have to leave my job, and a lot of people i would have called my friends, oh yeah and MM, but i felt it was the only way-- i had tried everything else, and nothing was working... i am now hated by BS and MM because i embarrassed them by putting their business in the street, well i hope they are comforted because mine is right out there too and I am taking all the hits that come with it.

 

 

so if you were wondering if i would feel the need to expose an A, the answer is yes, if i were the BS, don't be embarrassed that your H/W cheated on you... you did not do anything wrong to be lied to or cheated on and if BS decides to stay in that situation then BS need to see it with other eyes to help BS see the "real deal" and not just what BS wants to see, and make a sound decision if staying in the M is the right choice or not.

 

I also feel if no one learns anything by keeping things like this a secret… in my experience, the xMM was fueled by the fact his W, would keep him no matter what he did and I would not challenge him either, and for the BS this is not good for self image, it will eat you alive, everyone needs support in these situations.

 

I hope I answered your question...........

Edited September 30, 2010 by 2themoon&back
to add : the A would not have kept on going if exposed in the 1st place.

[thomasb]

You sound as though you are in a lot of pain, and Im sorry for that. My wife would very much agree with alot of your veiws.

[2sure]

tothemoon -

 

Our experiences , actions, and consequences sound VERY similar - you were OW and I was BS.

 

After my H's final infidelity, I knew I had to leave. I love him and know he loves me and it broke my heart - but for obvious reasons I had to extricate myself, to protect myself from him.

 

I did not expose the scope of his infidelity simply because I felt it better for me not to. But the divorce got ugly and I did not back down and did threaten exposure to get what I wanted. He hates me now. Which breaks my heart more but I needed him too because I needed that door to be locked and I was not strong enough to turn the key myself.

 

Since then, our social circle which is also my professional circle has labeled me a ball buster, a gold digger, heartless, etc. I have been publicly blamed for his career slipping, for fighting dirty. Among those previously closer it has been said that I cannot keep a man, that it is I who cheated , that I have emotional problems and anger management issues. I have changed jobs and cities.

 

I was married to him 5 years. I loved him with every breath I took. He was a serial cheater, he risked me, my daughter, my health and my emotional well being every time he thought he needed a little outside validation.

 

But I'm the outcast because I left.