Els Posted September 28, 2010 Posted September 28, 2010 I usually post in the LDR forums, so I understand that many of you here may not be familiar with my history. Brief summary: Been together for 2.5+ years, a large portion of it LD. We were both from the same third-world country, but he left to further his studies in NZ. 4 months ago, I came to NZ on a working holiday to end the distance. I planned to start a 1-year postgrad in Auckland, NZ next year, mainly funded by my parents (this is for my good as well as for us to be together, everyone from my country wants to get out of it), he will start working as a first-year house officer next year. Currently, even though I have a working holiday visa, it has been practically impossible to get any jobs other than cleaner/factory worker/farm assistant/etc due to the nature of my visa (only temp work allowed). So I am not working, and he is supporting me for these 6 months. Now, we have been living in separate accommodation since I arrived, as he lives in university accommodation, and I'm not supposed to stay with him. We have agreed that we should live together next year. Due to the medical council sending him to Chch instead of Auckland (where he had applied to be sent for his work next year), we had to revise our plans. Instead of the 1-year program in AUckland, I would take a 1.5 year program in Chch (where he was sent) instead so we could be together (Auckland is a 1.5 hour flight away), and he would help cover the extra cost of that by paying a larger part of our living expenses, so my parents would not be so burdened. Before you guys wonder why I/we are being so nitpicky about money, bear in mind NZ's currency is 2.3x the worth of our homeland's, where our parents are earning. He is currently living with his two housemates who are in the same course as he, and are probably his closest friends here. When I first came here, I was initially a little miffed that he did not even try to move out from living with them so we could stay together during these 6 months - he claimed that one of them had signed a one-year lease for the house this Jan and it would be mean of him to just leave in the middle of the year, as it would be difficult for the other guy to get someone else from the university to fill the place. So, fine. I live apart from him - he's paying, so if he wants to inflate our cost of living, that's his decision. We had agreed that if I were to take the 1.5 year program in Chch, he would move out and we would live together starting next Jan. Then, he drops the bombshell on me - his housemates wanted to find another house together too (since they have to move out of uni accommodation), and they asked if we would all 4 want to live together! He thought it would be a great idea as it would save on living cost, and he felt more people in the house would be more 'practical' for dealing with any potential problems that we might have (I don't get this part). I tried to reason with him: I am completely fine with him having friends, meeting up with them, etc... but I don't want to LIVE with them for the next 1.5 years! What sort of privacy would we have? Yes, we would save some money, but it wouldn't be that much, maybe just $50/week between both of us. He may feel comfortable with them because they're his friends after all, but even though I sort of know them, I'm not really close to them, and I would feel really uncomfortable. And since when did 'living together' come to mean 'living together... with 2 of his friends' to him?! He refused to budge. After thinking on it, I finally told him that I really do not want to live with him + his friends, and if practicalities such as saving a bit of money are more important to him than living with me, I see no reason why I should take a longer program to be with him. Point being, if he was insistent on having his friends in the house, he could have them and only them, because I would be going to Auckland instead. He finally relented and said we didn't have to live with his friends if I didn't want to. He also said that he had never even considered the possibility that I would not be living with him - he said that he had just wanted the best of both worlds, having a cheaper place to live, his friends, and me. So, that's settled. But I am still reeling with the thought - it mattered so much to me, for us to finally be able to share a home together like a normal couple, to have a place to call our own, where we could do whatever we liked without bother of housemates or intrusions of privacy. Did it not matter to him? However, to be fair to him, I won't be the one paying the bulk of our rental/expenses. He will be getting a decent salary, but a large part of it will have to go to paying for his brother's education and to his parents (don't question this - it's just how us Asians work). Finances may be a little tight, but not nearly as tight as they are now, and certainly not so tight that an extra $50/week would bankrupt us. I wonder if I'm being selfish, or if it really IS as weird as I think for a guy to want to have his friends in our house. Bear in mind, again, we're both Asians, not Americans, so there's a culture difference, and we're 23, so while we're committed there are no marriage plans yet, etc.
Citizen Erased Posted September 28, 2010 Posted September 28, 2010 Living with his friends is a horrible idea, truly. You moving there indicates a certain level of committment and that is just...the opposite. It's not him in particular though, my ex tried the same thing. No way in hell was I living in a house full of guys. Damn. I'm pissed FOR you. I'm so glad you didn't budge. I don't feel I know enough about you guys to really give you advice. From this post it looks like he's not at the same stage as you are. We girls like to nest with our SO, we don't like to invite permanent guy time into our lives for almost 2 years.
Author Els Posted September 28, 2010 Author Posted September 28, 2010 (edited) Yes, precisely! But the thing is, I really don't think men who aren't committed will stinge so badly on their own expenses just so their girlfriend can be with them. Example, he really wanted the new Starcraft, but forwent it because we couldn't afford it. Yet he spends $1000+ a month for me to be able to be here with him. He says: We can just spend most of our time in our rooms, so it doesn't matter if there are others around! But to me, it's just not... the same, y'know? By the way, it doesn't matter to me, but just for clarification, his friends aren't all guys. It's a guy and a girl - and yes, I am positive there is nothing funny going on between him and the girl. Edited September 28, 2010 by Elswyth
carhill Posted September 28, 2010 Posted September 28, 2010 So, as things are now, you'll be living together with him and no other roommates in Christchurch while you both are going to school there? TBH, he sounds like a typical 23 y/o guy to me. If he were all into nesting, you likely wouldn't be attracted to him. His psychology and demeanor would be completely different. So, it sounds like you both negotiated something which will work for you. Good. I presume you will experience parity in the program you study in Christchurch versus Auckland, yes? No significant impacts there, hopefully. By the time your 1.5 years of studies are up, you'll have a much better idea of his true feelings regarding the progression of your relationship/cohabitation/marriage, etc. You're both still very young. Plenty of time
denise_xo Posted September 28, 2010 Posted September 28, 2010 I think you need to get to the root of whether this is primarily a financial issue or a case of having different priorities for what kind of life styles you want, and then take the discussion from there. Not knowing you or really understanding the implications of the figures you're quoting, it's hard to know as an outsider which one it is. I've never flat shared as a couple or wanted it as a living arrangement, but there was a time when I would have preferred to do it temporarily for financial reasons as I was working my a## off and still struggling really hard to cover our bills. Doing shared housing for a year would have taken a lot of pressure off me and by implication, us. My partner was totally against it so it never happened.
Author Els Posted September 28, 2010 Author Posted September 28, 2010 (edited) So, as things are now, you'll be living together with him and no other roommates in Christchurch while you both are going to school there? Yes, we will be living together next year as things stand. I will be going to school, he will be working as a first-year MO. TBH, he sounds like a typical 23 y/o guy to me. If he were all into nesting, you likely wouldn't be attracted to him. His psychology and demeanor would be completely different. So, it sounds like you both negotiated something which will work for you. Good. I presume you will experience parity in the program you study in Christchurch versus Auckland, yes? No significant impacts there, hopefully. Really, could you explain that a little bit more? No significant impact re: the program asides from taking extra time to complete, and thus extra expenditure (which he will help me cover). By the time your 1.5 years of studies are up, you'll have a much better idea of his true feelings regarding the progression of your relationship/cohabitation/marriage, etc. You're both still very young. Plenty of time Yes, I agree with that. We certainly won't be marrying anytime in the near future, though. Even if he had wanted it (which he doesn't), I do not want to marry so young. I think you need to get to the root of whether this is primarily a financial issue or a case of having different priorities for what kind of life styles you want, and then take the discussion from there. Not knowing you or really understanding the implications of the figures you're quoting, it's hard to know as an outsider which one it is. I've never flat shared as a couple or wanted it as a living arrangement, but there was a time when I would have preferred to do it temporarily for financial reasons as I was working my a## off and still struggling really hard to cover our bills. Doing shared housing for a year would have taken a lot of pressure off me and by implication, us. My partner was totally against it so it never happened. I think it's both. Finance-wise we would save some money if we lived with his housemates, but not all that much. If having our own private place was as important to him as me, I do not think the slight financial benefit would have outweighed that. Also, he quoted the fact that having more people would be more practicable and safer in dealing with problems such as burglaries (in Chch?!), earthquakes (okay, we had 1, but it was 1 in many years...), etc. That part I do not understand, and by the time we got down to that I was so aghast at his suggestion and things were getting so heated that he insisted he would NOT budge, and we left it at that. The next time we spoke about it was when I told him my decision, and he relented. I'm not sure it would be wise to open this can of worms all over again, now that he is saying he's okay with us living together sans housemates. I guess what I'm wondering is, should I just leave it at that now that we have arrived at a decision that we both agree on? Or should I still be really worried about the fact that even though it's settled now, he could have even wanted to have his housemates with us and refused to budge til I gave an ultimatum? Also, am I selfish for incurring extra expenses when he will be paying the larger part of them? Edited September 28, 2010 by Elswyth
carhill Posted September 28, 2010 Posted September 28, 2010 eally, could you explain that a little bit more? No significant impact re: the program asides from taking extra time to complete, and thus extra expenditure (which he will help me cover).My concern would be that your compromise could affect the value of your educational program to your future job and career aspects. I know nothing of New Zealand's educational system nor what career aspirations you have. As an example, if I chose to move to where my girlfriend was (I have no girlfriend, just an example) and go to school at a nearby university, although credentials from another institution I had already been accepted to would assist me more in my career, would I be making a healthy decision for myself in making such a compromise? I would have to evaluate the value of that choice, relevant to my career as well as relationship. If there was parity, where neither institution offered an advantage over the other, then that aspect would be rendered moot.
Author Els Posted September 28, 2010 Author Posted September 28, 2010 No, I meant, could you explain more regarding this statement: 'If he were all into nesting, you likely wouldn't be attracted to him. His psychology and demeanor would be completely different'.
carhill Posted September 28, 2010 Posted September 28, 2010 Oh, sorry.... Nesting men, of which I am one, have a different psychology and demeanor. We're generally softer, more empathetic, more into hearth and home, even though we still compete with other men in business and do 'manly' things. Now, you may 'like' a guy like this, and perhaps want your future husband to relish nesting with you, but, in general, it's the challenge of taming the man-beast-bachelor which drives aspects of your attraction to him. Without conflict, want is lessened, simply because want becomes has without real discourse. See 'opposites attract' and 'we want what we can't have' and numerous other cliches for more perspective. In your situation, IMO, you made a big compromise to move countries to be with your LD BF and now he has apparently made a compromise to forego his male roommates to live alone with you. If he had been proactive in that perspective from the beginning (a 'nesting' man would have been), his perspective on other relationship aspects would have been/be similarly imbued, and your relationship would have been remarkably different, on many levels. It's unknown whether these differences would have affected your attraction for him, but my experiences have shown me that it does affect a woman's attraction. I've experimented with 'changing up' styles during my separation and see the effects. Interesting stuff. Hope the move goes well
Author Els Posted September 28, 2010 Author Posted September 28, 2010 Unfortunately, it wasn't 'taming' that attracted me at the beginning - it was his undying devotion, care, and the willingness to do pretty much anything for us. He's still good in many, many ways, but sometimes I sit and wonder where the 'I would do anything for you' part went.
Author Els Posted September 28, 2010 Author Posted September 28, 2010 By the way, if he really is the typical 23-year-old male who wasn't quite interested in commitment... why do so much to have us together? He applied for his work based on where I was planning to go. He gave up a lot of things he would have otherwise gotten for himself, to support me in his country. He paid a large sum of money to fly back to our old country to see me for 2 weeks while we were LD. I'm not sure if any normal 23-year-old might do that.
carhill Posted September 28, 2010 Posted September 28, 2010 IMO, this is who we are, as men. Some of us put on airs to romance a woman, becoming someone we're not. Then, mission accomplished, we settle back into our comfort zone. Men who are successful with women balance these aspects, giving her enough of what she wants to build attraction, but not too much so as to let her get too comfortable, and some men can do this for a lifetime, throughout a successful marriage. Some of us are just better at it than others. IME, the reverse (reversing the genders) can happen as well, but this topic is about the changing dynamic with your BF. The interesting part for me, psychologically, is the interplay between want and attraction; how those aspects of one's personality ebb and flow, changing with the relationship dynamics. I'm hearing you recognize the want, perhaps a want going unmet, but you still engage based on the attraction, an attraction which might very well in part stem from the unmet want. Had that want gone unmet at the beginning, attraction might have still been there but perhaps would have been overruled by want (or the decision made intellectually from the want going unmet). It's really interesting stuff, but has nothing, IMO, to do with the specifics of your issues. To me, it sounds like you've resolved the habitation issue, so leave it at that, resisting further analysis, and enjoy your time together. Time reveals all truths. You say 'he's still good in many, many ways'. Stop right there, for now. Go with that. It says he has some imperfections. Good for him. He's human, just like you and me
Author Els Posted September 28, 2010 Author Posted September 28, 2010 It's really interesting stuff, but has nothing, IMO, to do with the specifics of your issues. To me, it sounds like you've resolved the habitation issue, so leave it at that, resisting further analysis, and enjoy your time together. Time reveals all truths. You say 'he's still good in many, many ways'. Stop right there, for now. Go with that. It says he has some imperfections. Good for him. He's human, just like you and me Thing is, what he had initially really wanted was to live with the housemates, and he gave in to living with just the two of us just because he didn't want to lose me. Do you believe I should just let it rest, instead of questioning the implications of that?
SecretSquirrel Posted September 28, 2010 Posted September 28, 2010 I only skimmed the OP and replies, and it seems I have a different opinion. Personally, I can understand wanting to save money, given the situation you're in, and at that age I also understand wanting to live with friends. If you had 2 additional roommates how would you only be saving $25 apiece? Are they only paying $25 each for rent? Sorry if that sounds snotty, just curious how that works, but probably isn't especially relevant to your issue. Again, I only skimmed, but it sounds like you got your way, so I'd let it go and be happy.
Author Els Posted September 28, 2010 Author Posted September 28, 2010 (edited) We are only saving about $50 combined because we would have a 2-bedroom apartment with the 2 of us, and a 4-bedroom apartment with the friends. 4-bedroom apartment means cheaper rooms, but not by that much. In fact, if we had a studio apartment instead of a 2-bedroom we would even SAVE money, but we both agreed we'd need our space. Also, the thing is, they are HIS friends...not really mine. If we had to choose between staying with MY friends (assuming we were still in our home country) and just having the 2 of us there, I have a feeling he wouldn't be so thrilled about the friends anymore. Edited September 28, 2010 by Elswyth
carhill Posted September 28, 2010 Posted September 28, 2010 Yes, I'd let it rest and go with the flow of the compromise, presuming it plays out as I'm reading here. Enjoy your time together
sweetjasmine Posted September 28, 2010 Posted September 28, 2010 Thing is, what he had initially really wanted was to live with the housemates, and he gave in to living with just the two of us just because he didn't want to lose me. Do you believe I should just let it rest, instead of questioning the implications of that? Do you think he might have been feeling a little anxious about/scared of living together alone with you? I don't mean in a "I'm not sure if I want to be with Elswyth" way but a "this is a pretty significant step" kind of way, since he'd be living with you, by himself, for the first time, while starting his new job/residency. Is he the type of person who deals well with change? What about his parents and your parents? Do they know about it? Would his parents' opinions affect how he approaches the issue? I'd have been upset about it, too, if I were in your shoes, given all you guys have been through. But since you've come to an agreement, I'd let it go and see how things unfold.
allina Posted September 28, 2010 Posted September 28, 2010 I'm sorry you're upset Elswyth, however I sort of agree with your bf. I lived with 3 roomates in college and it saved a TON of money, and the support system was great. I honestly think you will save much more than $50 a month. You can still have privacy while sharing a home with him and his friends. Also, it is my understanding that he is studying to be a doctor, correct? I think it might be very beneficial to your bf to live with his friends who are in the same field. He will be able to study with them, relate to them, and have them as his support system when times get rough. This will be a new city and having that group of friends together would be good for all of you. I know that in the past you and the bf have been in a bit of a rut with how you spend time together, this may very well get you out of that rut. Last, with your bf working/studying such long days and paying for the majority of expenses he might feel resentment if he gives in and moves in with just you. You have so many years to build a home with him later on in life. I would urge you to reconsider your decision in this case.
Author Els Posted September 28, 2010 Author Posted September 28, 2010 (edited) Sorry, just dashing off a quick reply before I've to head out. Allina: He will be starting work next year, he is done studying this year. I would never have pressured him to get us a place of our own if he was still studying. He will earn more than most first year grads will... let's just say it's more than 70k/year before tax deduction. His friends are currently at his place whenever I go over. They do not help us get out of any ruts, and are very bad at giving us privacy. Or rather, he is very bad about insisting that we get privacy - and it being his house and his friends, I don't feel it's my prerogative to insist so. I also feel a little left out when I'm with them. The bf tries to help a little but there's really nothing much he can do when I'm so far out of their loop. I don't know their people, their job, their studies, whatever they talk about... And one of them is a little cold (shy?) towards me. If it were mutual friends my decision might be different. Yes, I am worried about the resentment. But to be honest, I have compromised a lot for him during our relationship. There have been several large issues that we disagreed on, and I gave in to him. This time, however - it's been one of my biggest dreams for life (aka top 5 things you want to do before you die), to be able to live with a partner. Stems from long LDRs I guess. I thought about giving in to him in the end to make him happy, but decided that I really needed this for myself. Jasmine: That's what I was worried about. I did ask him, because it really was starting to seem that way (he wasn't comfortable with living with me etc... but if so why give me false hope initially that he wanted to?), and he said, "No!! I just think it's more practical to live with them!" He doesn't take very well to being asked the same question repeatedly, so... Carhill: Thanks, I think that would be the most prudent decision. Edited September 28, 2010 by Elswyth
pandagirl Posted September 28, 2010 Posted September 28, 2010 Yes, I am worried about the resentment. But to be honest, I have compromised a lot for him during our relationship. There have been several large issues that we disagreed on, and I gave in to him. This time, however - it's been one of my biggest dreams for life (aka top 5 things you want to do before you die), to be able to live with a partner. Stems from long LDRs I guess. I thought about giving in to him in the end to make him happy, but decided that I really needed this for myself. Knowing the back story to your relationship, I can see why you're upset. You have put up with a lot and compromised a great deal on your end to make this relationship work. Perhaps you feel like you've been putting in all the work in trying to make HIM happy, and this one time, you just wanted him to put you and your wants/needs first. That is understandable! But, also keep in mind both of you are young, and just now transitioning into a every day relationship. Maybe you are full-on ready to live together, but maybe he's seeing it more as baby steps.
Author Els Posted October 7, 2010 Author Posted October 7, 2010 (edited) Oh good effing grief, I typed a very long response to this and the ****ty internet just ate it up. I'll summarize again in a much shorter post, but bear in mind I'll be leaving a lot out, so feel free to ask for explanation/examples. PG, thanks for your input. Thing is, I don't think there's any place for 'baby steps' once a R has progressed to the point where both people have made significant life alterations to be together. It'd be like wondering if you should let him pay for dinner, when both of you are already paying for a house together. Y'know what I mean? As for my housing situation, I think I realized a more complicated reason why I am against living with the housemates, as well. See, even though I'm in his country now we aren't living together. We were supposed to, but certain administrative/etc reasons have precluded it. I live a short distance away, and we each commute to the other person's place, or stay over, most days of the week. Now, as long as I've been here, I notice that the only place he's perfectly happy is in his own place. He does come over to mine unasked, but he cites a long list of reasons for not liking my place (including housemates, location relative to his work, and the house itself), and he gets really unhappy if he stays there for a prolonged period of time (>2 days). Fine, I get it, he's working full-time, my place IS rather inconvenient for him, etc. However, in HIS place, his room is too small for both of us, his TV and computer are in the living room, so when I go to his place we spend most of our time in the living room with his housemates (who are always, ALWAYS there). The only privacy we get is when we go to his room near bedtime, have sex/cuddling and sleep. Yet he prefers that we spend time in his place (even though in mine, we get all the privacy we like). I personally think he's too attached to his place and his housemates and is idolizing them, and is mentally blocking himself from being happy anywhere else because he's comparing any other place to an idolized version of his place, and of course nothing ever compares to a 'perfect vision'. And that being in this idolized version of his place is more vital to his happiness than spending time with me. He denies all of this when I bring it up and says that it isn't true, he likes spending time with me, he just really dislikes my place for (long list of reasons). He also gets quite defensive of his housemates when I have any complaints about them - it's as if in his eyes, they can't do anything too wrong. This month, we're staying together at a backpackers in a rural town because he was posted there for a month. I'm happy because we get to live together and even though some things are inconvenient and lacking (such as internet, bathroom, amenities, etc), I can look past the negatives and find the positives. He is unhappy, and says that he misses his place with (long list of things that this budget accommodation in a rural town doesn't have). Again, I bring up the 'attachment' hypothesis, and he denies it, says that if I were working 10 hours a day like he is (and thus missing most of the positives about this place such as gorgeous views, walks/hikes and free internet during library hours), I wouldnt like the place so much either. Fine. Fair enough, perhaps. But I'm not fully convinced, and I want proof. I want to see him be able to be happy in a different place, without his housemates around. If everything is as he says it is, he should be able to, after all. It may sound twisted, but being able to be happy living with only me in a home of our own is a trait that I want to see a man have, before I even consider a life together with him. Note: I don't mean happy with only me, I like my guy to have friends, but he should be able to live away from them. Edited October 7, 2010 by Elswyth
Author Els Posted October 7, 2010 Author Posted October 7, 2010 Grr, sorry about the messed up posts, the library internet seemed to be going on hiatus. Hopefully it displays alright now.
Author Els Posted October 28, 2010 Author Posted October 28, 2010 Gosh, talk about conflict-avoidant. We, all of us, have to move in 3 weeks' time. He hasn't told his housemates he won't be living with them. They have been asking him to join them in house viewings and he has been just blowing them off with random last-minute excuses. I'm not sure what he hopes to accomplish by postponing; he's probably afraid of disappointing them, but I'm pretty sure they'll be even more pissed when they find out later, with so little time for them to find another housemate. Why lead them on? I told him this and he said 'I'll tell them next week'. Fine, I know this was a really busy week for him and previously we were away for a month so he didn't have the chance, but it takes, what, 2 minutes? He has lots of great qualities and I love him and all, but sometimes the way he handles things annoys the heck outta me.
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