Update: Not Dating American Women Anymore

[Untouchable_Fire]

Well, see, the differences in their life paths weren't just because of their nationalities, but more because of their cultural differences and who they were. Asians are often known for being very ambitious, which is clearly demonstrated by the Korean xGF. She went through college, lived respectably and with self-respect, got a good education and career, and has been successful! That is wonderful to hear! I am glad that she is happy! The American xGF, on the other hand, chose the path of a stripper, which is well-paying, yes, but is less respectable of a career choice and has less bright of a future, and she chose to forego a college education, unless you left that out. She also chose to be irresponsible and have three kids with three men, as you said. This is totally on her and is not purely a result of being American, and more a result of her particular upbringing, beliefs, values, and standards of morality. I am so sorry to hear about the mistreatment of one of her daughters, and I'm glad that the man responsible has been convicted. She still leaves her kids with him to go on drug binges, though??? This really speaks to her character. All I can say is... YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW. The moral of the story, definitely! She deserves what she gets-- and the man does too!-- but I feel really bad for her kids. I hope they will be okay, and wish the best for them.

 

The American girl is named Tara... and I actually met her in college. After we broke up we remained friends. She started stripping at 19 ostensibly to pay for college... actually it was to pay for an expensive drug habit she had picked up with her new BF.

 

My cousin knows her too since she is from my hometown. Child Protective Services has been called on multiple occasions to take the children from her, but so far has failed to do so.

 

I feel very, very bad for her kids because they don't have any chance in life. None. I think both of the girls have been repeatedly abused by the oldests father... maybe the boy too. They have no stability, no real family... their only hope is the foster system... which is terrible!

 

I can tell you from experience of dating both of those girls... that they had similar childhood issues, but because of cultural expectations and values took their lives in wildly different directions.

[Untouchable_Fire]

No, women do have responsibility put on them, just like men. Only foolish people would accept letting them get away with anything.

 

Ok... I challenged someone to name those expectations, and she couldn't think of anything.

 

So... besides looking pretty and being a good mother. What expectations does society put on you?

[TheBigQuestion]

The American girl is named Tara... and I actually met her in college. After we broke up we remained friends. She started stripping at 19 ostensibly to pay for college... actually it was to pay for an expensive drug habit she had picked up with her new BF.

 

My cousin knows her too since she is from my hometown. Child Protective Services has been called on multiple occasions to take the children from her, but so far has failed to do so.

 

I feel very, very bad for her kids because they don't have any chance in life. None. I think both of the girls have been repeatedly abused by the oldests father... maybe the boy too. They have no stability, no real family... their only hope is the foster system... which is terrible!

 

I can tell you from experience of dating both of those girls... that they had similar childhood issues, but because of cultural expectations and values took their lives in wildly different directions.

 

Be wary of trying to discuss generalizations with extreme examples. By and large, most women, American or not, don't end up stripping and having 3 kids with 3 different dads.

[brainygirl]

Ok... I challenged someone to name those expectations, and she couldn't think of anything.

 

So... besides looking pretty and being a good mother. What expectations does society put on you?

 

First of all, being a good mother is a HUGE responsibility, to take in one's hands the life and raising of another human being is a huge thing.

 

Second, women have the same responsibilities as men do. To be good to the people in their lives, to be good citizens, to pay their bills and to attempt to enact a positive influence on the world through which they travel.

 

What gives these guys the nerve to imply that women have no morals, no values, no loyalty and no sense of responsibility? Because you've dated some women with nasty attitudes? Well guess what, that same atittude you hated once you were dating her is probably what drew you to her in the first place. Guys always go for the women who's put the most effort into her appearance (vane) and who makes them work to get her attention (Princess).

 

Easy going women who'd rather sip a beer and have a conversation get ignored for women who get phony loud and phony drunk to call attention to themselves and then complain about the fact that she turned out to be a lousy girlfriend.

 

Grow up all of you.

[TheBigQuestion]

First of all, being a good mother is a HUGE responsibility, to take in one's hands the life and raising of another human being is a huge thing.

 

Second, women have the same responsibilities as men do. To be good to the people in their lives, to be good citizens, to pay their bills and to attempt to enact a positive influence on the world through which they travel.

 

What gives these guys the nerve to imply that women have no morals, no values, no loyalty and no sense of responsibility? Because you've dated some women with nasty attitudes? Well guess what, that same atittude you hated once you were dating her is probably what drew you to her in the first place. Guys always go for the women who's put the most effort into her appearance (vane) and who makes them work to get her attention (Princess).

 

Easy going women who'd rather sip a beer and have a conversation get ignored for women who get phony loud and phony drunk to call attention to themselves and then complain about the fact that she turned out to be a lousy girlfriend.

 

Grow up all of you.

 

You just made plenty of unfounded generalizations about men. You don't know anything about the appearances of the girls they dated, or how these were related to their personalities.

[Chubbi]

Many of the actions the OP listed I have tried in interactions with American men: such as asking to pay for both meals. They do not work.

 

The American men I've dealt with thought that me asking to pay for them was akin to treating them like a charity case and taking away from their masculinity. I even have to come up with good ways just to ask to pay for myself as it hurts their provider image. So, it really is a double-edged sword- at one point, you do want to pay sometimes and be on equal standing, at the other point, you don't want to do it so often that it hurts their masculinity. Maybe it depends on the guy too, but the guys I've met feel good when they can provide for the woman they are attracted to, and I wouldn't be surprised if they thought it was a type of investment.

 

For the men, it wasn't about what I did persay as much about what I said to them. Complimenting them on their actions always work. For example, I once told this guy he was the only reason we didn't get lost in the city, and it was true, and he really sopped it up and took on the role even stronger. It made it easy for me because I simply waited as he rummaged through maps and reading signs and directions.

 

Also, the American men I know actually like to be called on their **** and challenged. This one guy said something rude just to get a reaction out of me which he laughed about afterwards. He said all women do is stitch and bitch, and then laughed about my expression when I cut him a look. If I were a traditional, head-low woman, he wouldn't have gotten that response.

Edited October 2, 2010 by Chubbi

[Untouchable_Fire]

First of all, being a good mother is a HUGE responsibility, to take in one's hands the life and raising of another human being is a huge thing.

Second, women have the same responsibilities as men do. To be good to the people in their lives, to be good citizens, to pay their bills and to attempt to enact a positive influence on the world through which they travel.

What gives these guys the nerve to imply that women have no morals, no values, no loyalty and no sense of responsibility? Because you've dated some women with nasty attitudes? Well guess what, that same atittude you hated once you were dating her is probably what drew you to her in the first place. Guys always go for the women who's put the most effort into her appearance (vane) and who makes them work to get her attention (Princess).

Easy going women who'd rather sip a beer and have a conversation get ignored for women who get phony loud and phony drunk to call attention to themselves and then complain about the fact that she turned out to be a lousy girlfriend.

Grow up all of you.

 

I take it you can't think of a single thing...?

 

As a guy I'm responsible for keeping my wife happy and satisfied both in the bedroom and outside. I'm responsible for providing income and housing. I'm responsible for the state of that house. I'm responsible for being educated and intelligent. I'm responsible for major and minor decision makeing... and to understand the wants and needs of my SO when making said choices. I'm responsible for generally understanding/guessing the overall constantly shifting wants and needs of my SO and providing for them. I'm responsible for protecting my SO from bodily harm. I'm responsible for not showing weakness. I'm responsible for maintaining a high level of physical fitness. I'm responsible for the overall success or failure of my family. I'm responsible for dressing nicely. I'm responsible for making any and all romantic gestures in the relationship.... ect.

 

Any guys want to add to this list... There is a ton more but I'm tired of typing?

 

The bottom line is that our culture is designed on the premise of "Male Disposablilty" with very low emotional input. This make it so strong males move forward and the weak are left by the wayside.

[Taramere]

Also, the American men I know actually like to be called on their **** and challenged.

 

Presumably, though, those are fairly confident guys you've met in a normal social environment. When I think of men I know, they like to be teased and to have banter. On the other hand, some men have real confidence problems around women - and will take any form of playful banter or challenge as a slight/bitchiness/aggression on your part. Everything's deadly serious with them. If you try to joke with them, they'll get hostile and angry about it.

 

I realise that the discussion here isn't about that whole mail order bride thing, but the negativity expressed towards American women in the "I won't date them again" outlook is one of the main things introduction agencies use as part of their customer bait. Here is an article by a guy who went undercover for the "get a bride from the Ukraine" experience.

 

You can see how over and over, the rep from the introduction agency is using negativity about American women to sell the introduction agency experience. It's classic advertising. Tap into the root of a person's dissatisfaction and unhappiness, fuel that dissatisfaction and unhappiness - then tell them that you have the magical cure at a price.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Presumably, though, those are fairly confident guys you've met in a normal social environment. When I think of men I know, they like to be teased and to have banter. On the other hand, some men have real confidence problems around women - and will take any form of playful banter or challenge as a slight/bitchiness/aggression on your part. Everything's deadly serious with them. If you try to joke with them, they'll get hostile and angry about it.

I realise that the discussion here isn't about that whole mail order bride thing, but the negativity expressed towards American women in the "I won't date them again" outlook is one of the main things introduction agencies use as part of their customer bait. Here is an article by a guy who went undercover for the "get a bride from the Ukraine" experience.

You can see how over and over, the rep from the introduction agency is using negativity about American women to sell the introduction agency experience. It's classic advertising. Tap into the root of a person's dissatisfaction and unhappiness, fuel that dissatisfaction and unhappiness - then tell them that you have the magical cure at a price.

 

My current GF teases all the time, but typically over tangential stuff... nothing serious. Do you like it when a guy teases that your boobs are too small or that your ugly? If the guys are getting sensitive... your most likely a tactless tart.

 

Of course they use the overall poor reputation and character of the average american woman to sell something. It is a perfect usage. The problem is universally known and accepted, so when you offer an easy sounding solution many guys will pay money for it. Although I'm not going to read the article... mostly because I see who wrote it... I think when someone actively tries to SELL you a solution like that... it's like the cure for the common cold. Too good to be true. The only way to make it work is to actively learn a foreign language and go meet someone.

 

Just like selling women a cute high heel that promises no discomfort.

 

Also.... Harper's Bazaar.... pretty much an American fashion magazine.... I wonder who that article is tailored to...?

[Taramere]

My current GF teases all the time, but typically over tangential stuff... nothing serious. Do you like it when a guy teases that your boobs are too small or that your ugly? If the guys are getting sensitive... your most likely a tactless tart.

 

Perhaps to assist me, you could point to the part where I've been a "tactless tart". Then once you've done that, you might want to look at the way you're expressing yourself on this thread.

 

No of course I would be turned off from a man who made boorish insults such as the ones you're describing. That's not banter, it's just being abusive. There are things that I steer clear of when I'm bantering with male friends. Lots in fact...and no, I don't tend to find I get a hurt reaction from men I know. This board - that's a different matter. There are a lot of hurt people who read unkindness and base motives into everything.

 

I'll admit that when I hurt the feelings of someone like that, I feel badly about it....but at the same time, it would get exhausting to tread on eggshells. Or lie about what you're perceiving in order to boost the other person's ego.

 

 

Also.... Harper's Bazaar.... pretty much an American fashion magazine.... I wonder who that article is tailored to...?

 

No, that's a kneejerk reaction on your part based on the assumptions you've made about me rather than on obective and considered thought. The article I linked to is from this magazine which is an award winning, political publication.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Perhaps to assist me, you could point to the part where I've been a "tactless tart". Then once you've done that, you might want to look at the way you're expressing yourself on this thread.

 

So you believe that if a man takes offense to your "teasing" it is 100% his fault for lacking confidence. It can't in any way shape or form relate to your inappropriate choice of words or topics. - That would qualify you as a tactless tart. I used that word because your vocabulary choices give me the impression your from the U.K. I apologize if I'm incorrect.

 

 

No of course I would be turned off from a man who made boorish insults such as the ones you're describing. That's not banter, it's just being abusive. There are things that I steer clear of when I'm bantering with male friends. Lots in fact...and no, I don't tend to find I get a hurt reaction from men I know. This board - that's a different matter. There are a lot of hurt people who read unkindness and base motives into everything.

 

Maybe that's because you can't display tone of body language very well in text. It's really easy to misunderstand people. I consistently battle that issue myself.

 

I'll admit that when I hurt the feelings of someone like that, I feel badly about it....but at the same time, it would get exhausting to tread on eggshells. Or lie about what you're perceiving in order to boost the other person's ego.

 

Here is a hint. If you start by using self depreciating humor and show someone that you don't take yourself too seriously... it's much easier for them to not take themselves too seriously either.

 

Also... I've never found it a requirement to lie about something I perceive to be true. If it's really important enough that it must be mentioned then it's worth putting some thought into tact.

 

No, that's a kneejerk reaction on your part based on the assumptions you've made about me rather than on obective and considered thought. The article I linked to is from this magazine which is an award winning, political publication.

 

Meh... I've seen Harpers Bazaar before. It's a reasonable assumption that the article was written specifically for consumption by American female readers.

 

My primary assumptions regarding you are as follows: 1. Your not American, 2. You feel some guys just can't handle your teasing, 3. That your "teasing" may not come across in the gentle manner you intend, and that 4. You are a good person at heart.

 

I am aware I could be wrong on any combination of these assumptions.

[harkkam]

Nature if you observe it well in some species the women are dominant and even end up killing the male after courtship. But in most species its the male that uses his physical strength to gain physical superiority over them, ie. Lion and Lionesses.

 

Mankind evolved from living in caves, women were subjected to bad treatment, and slowly over many years women were given more and more status and the power of masculine physical superiority stated to give way.

 

In some parts of the world the only reason a woman cant have her way is because she is afraid of being beaten so in order to keep herself safe she must let herself suffer under the decisions of the man.

 

In the Western world especially over the last centuries the physical superiority of men has shifted from something positive to being negative. Before men used to laugh about beating their wives think back to the 1800's and 1700's.

 

Now as society progresses forward those attitudes and beliefs are changing and the opposite shift has taken place where the thought of using your physical superiority to get somebody to do something is VERY wrong and forbidden and has many negative social and legal connotations.

 

Women gained rights, voting and then the sexual revolution gave women a sense of more social and economic power that they did not have before. Soon they started entering the workforce and started breaking barriers there.

 

Men have been on top for a very long time in the history of mankind.

 

Everything is Yin and Yang I believe. However with the cultural revolutions set in the 60's and the new media and philosophy of jersey Shore and MTV, our culture is changing.

 

Before men used to dominate society and today women seem to dictate everything in regrades to dating and relationships. 80% of all divorces are filled by women in the country.

 

Women can bury their head in the sand all they like because it makes them feel better or because it hurts their sense of pride too much to stand to face the truth that society is turning women into people who no longer know how to have healthy sustainable relationships.

 

I really believe that men and women are not equal and nature never intended it to be that way. Fair pay and voting rights and no tolerance of physical abuse is not my idea of man-woman gender roles. That is just basic human equality regardless of gender.

 

But Men are men and women are women. Men lead and women follow. However in this society women are taught to believe that they have to prove that they are better than men, stronger and smarter.

 

Men and Women BOTH unfortunately are becoming more selfish as well and more independent and self centered. The "me" first generation.

 

Two things need to happen for our divorce rates to go down.

 

1. Men and women need to be less self centered and stop thinking only about their pleasure or reward or benefit.

 

2. Men need to learn there place again, as women do. There is a reason chivalry is dead because there is no need for it in a society were women wanted to be treated as equals. Chivalry is a gesture of kindness toward a weaker specimen needing help and aid. You can say America acts chivalrously toward Hatti, but never toward Europe. A mans place is a metaphorical and emotional and psychological leader. A womans place is a nurturer, a bank of positive energy, and enthusiasm.

 

It doesnt make sense at first but it does. Men and women should share tasks, there is nothing about being a Man that says that you should not do the dishes. In fact as the Man, you are physically more capable and your woman has just come from work supposing, she is softer so you let her sleep or rest and you do the dishes. However as a woman when the Man comes home and he is tired, he stops himself from taking it out on her the stress of the day and uses his emotional strength and climbs into his bed where the woman is warm and loving and not frigid and distant and she cuddles next to him and he wraps his arm around her.

 

Its a weekend and you are free and your woman says "I want to go out" and as a Man you say "I know just the place, pack your stuff and meet me in 20"

and off they go.

 

There is no jockeying for positions of power. All serious matters the womans opinion and mans opinion are equal like buying a house and car. You do the BBQ and she makes the salad. You play in the garden with your kids and she rests on the deck.

 

Society has put men and women against one another, when together they are supposed to be even stronger.

 

Everybody wants to be independent and strong. What happens when you put two alpha males in a small space, they eventually fight. Trying to win and become the higher alpha male.

 

Women think they are alpha and challenge men and men are alpha and challenge women. So a fight ensues. The solution is not for women to become subservient to men, and do all the chores and put up with cheating, but to emotionally become less alpha.

 

Strong kind male, gentle yet poised female.

 

Gender roles are a wonderful thing, without them everybody is confused and they are there for a reason. Society didnt just sit down around a table and say okay and make a checklist of all things that Men are supposed to be and women are supposed to be.

 

I dated an American woman as well and her attitude made me staying with her intolerable.

 

I dated a woman from another culture and my attitude I admit made it intolerable for her to stay with me and she did the right thing for herself and regardless of what I think, it was her decision that she has the right to make.

 

Point being that I as a American male also have the entitlement issues, I also lack emotional control, not that like of a Man, she had all the qualities that I described a woman should have. She was not from this country, but regardless it would not have worked because of me.

 

Nobody is picking on a SPECIFIC american woman, because that is unfair and we have no right to do that nor knowledge of whom she is.

 

But if you have ever taken statistics its never about the individual its about the whole the average. Sure there may be many American women that fall through the cracks and are nice kind and loving since there are many women in this country. But on an average males are starting to notice patterns of behavior that are turning them away.

 

More and more men dont want to get married and I dont blame them. Its not you its everybody.

 

And the issue about paying, its no big deal. I think as the Man you offer to pay for the meal the first time. The woman should go along with it the first time to show the man that she had a good time and enjoyed the meal and would not feel bad being "indebted" to a man of his caliber.

 

The second time you date and a woman can offer to pay and me personally would have no problem, just make a joke woman says "hey you paid last time, now its my treat" and Id say "(laugh) go for it, Im getting the most expensive plate" followed with a nice warm smile.

 

Men dont be so insecure, money is money and everybody makes it. She makes it and you make it. Its sharing and thats it. I pay the first time and after that its whatever it is. I dont always pay and neither does the woman we both feel like its fair and thats all that matters.

Edited October 2, 2010 by harkkam

[Taramere]

So you believe that if a man takes offense to your "teasing" it is 100% his fault for lacking confidence. It can't in any way shape or form relate to your inappropriate choice of words or topics. - That would qualify you as a tactless tart. I used that word because your vocabulary choices give me the impression your from the U.K. I apologize if I'm incorrect.

 

Yes, I'm from the UK. I'm not seeing how you've answered me there though. I was asking you to point to the part where I was being a "tactless tart". I suppose I could offer up a recent profanity-filled post I made to The Collector - but I've met him, we both have a taste for that kind of childish humour, so that isn't tactless because I can be 100% sure he'll get that I'm not being serious.

 

Here is a hint. If you start by using self depreciating humor and show someone that you don't take yourself too seriously... it's much easier for them to not take themselves too seriously either.

 

I think anybody who knows the origins of my username will know that I don't take myself all that seriously.

 

With the exception of the occasional conflict with people in my life, this seems to be the only environment in which I offend people. I'm sure the same is true of a lot of people. As far as whether it's my fault for being tactless, or the other person's problem for being overly sensitive...there's no way of determining that for sure. There are times I've been outright rude to someone else, and there's no doubt about it...but generally I think I'm fairly polite. There are some people on the board who are invariably nice on a level that for me would get boring. At the other extreme, people who are constantly involved in acrimonious conflicts to the point where they must be exhausting to be around in real life. Most people are in the middle - ie generally plays nicely with others, but sometimes get into clashes where the fault lies fairly equally with both. I'd put myself in that category most of the time.

 

My primary assumptions regarding you are as follows: 1. Your not American, 2. You feel some guys just can't handle your teasing, 3. That your "teasing" may not come across in the gentle manner you intend, and that 4. You are a good person at heart.

 

I am aware I could be wrong on any combination of these assumptions.

 

 

One is correct - the rest are perceptions, which might be good insight but they're subjective so I can't really say they're right or wrong.

 

As far as feeling some guys can't handle my teasing goes....yes, that's the tempting way for me to think, because it lets me adopt the "I'm okay, they're not" position. I do think there are some people who hurt to the extent that they can't laugh about anything and believe that the world is out to get them - and that that is their issue to address rather than other people's. In rare cases a person might have an autistic condition whereby other people's humour is a mystery to them, and the best way of dealing with them is to be very clear and literal. That's one I find difficult, because I often assume people are kidding around when in fact they're being 100% serious. So I'll joke back, and then discover that I've caused offence.

 

In most cases though, if you dislike someone else's form of humour or they dislike yours, it's not a case of anyone being at fault. It's simply two people being on different wavelengths. I wouldn't change myself for the sake of trying to please people I don't really gel with - but of course if I'm teasing somebody and I sense them getting angry and upset, then I'd deal with it by either avoiding further communications with them or switching to being 100% serious.

 

The issue of blaming is quite central to the topic you've raised here, I think. A lot of threads that quickly descend into gender bashing emanate from a poster indicating "I feel bad, depressed and frustrated - and men/women/society/my family are to blame for that." To add to the many generalisations already made on this thread, I'd say that the US is a very litigious culture (in part, I think, because there's this system of making punitive awards that can be of astronomical proportions). One of the most destructive things about a litigious environment is that it encourages people to avoid taking blame and responsibility, and at the same time seek to inflict those things (blame and responsibility) on others.

 

When you're in an environment where everybody seems to be participating in that, it's incredibly easy to get sucked into doing the same thing...but every time any of us do it, all we're really achieving is to hinder our own personal development and quest for truth.

Edited October 2, 2010 by Taramere

[brainygirl]

I take it you can't think of a single thing...?

 

As a guy I'm responsible for keeping my wife happy and satisfied both in the bedroom and outside.

 

And women don't have this same "responsibility?"

I'm responsible for providing income and housing.

 

I earn my own income and pay for my own house.

I'm responsible for the state of that house.

 

I call the landlord if I can't fix it myself. Usually I can fix it myself.

I'm responsible for being educated and intelligent.

 

I enjoy being educated and intelligent.

I'm responsible for major and minor decision makeing... and to understand the wants and needs of my SO when making said choices.

 

If she wont make a choice on her own, she's a door mat.

 

 

I'm responsible for generally understanding/guessing the overall constantly shifting wants and needs of my SO and providing for them.

 

 

You allowed this situation to develop, me, I refuse to be put in that position, because you end up doing all the "work" and getting all the "blame" if things turn out poorly. Pick a better woman next time.

 

I'm responsible for protecting my SO from bodily harm.

 

I don't think middle class american women really have all that much to fear. At least I don't.

 

I'm responsible for not showing weakness.

 

And women who are too strong can't get a date.

 

I'm responsible for maintaining a high level of physical fitness.

 

Oh please, have you seen the things that get said about women who aren't fit? All men have to be is "not super morbidly obese" to be successful in the dating world.

I'm responsible for the overall success or failure of my family.

 

If you look at it that way, its alraedy failed.

I'm responsible for dressing nicely.

 

Again, so are women

I'm responsible for making any and all romantic gestures in the relationship.... ect.

 

Uhm, no, that's something unique to your relationships, most are an equal balance.

 

Any guys want to add to this list... There is a ton more but I'm tired of typing?

 

The bottom line is that our culture is designed on the premise of "Male Disposablilty" with very low emotional input. This make it so strong males move forward and the weak are left by the wayside.

 

That's complete woman-hating BS. This culture looks at people as disposable. Don't like your wife? divorce her and get a new one. Don't like your girlfriend" cheat, treat her like dirt and get her to break up with you.

[brainygirl]

You just made plenty of unfounded generalizations about men. You don't know anything about the appearances of the girls they dated, or how these were related to their personalities.

 

I put an observation in my post from personal experience and extrapolated to a wider group.

 

I have been in social settings, I think the one I was specifically thinking about was a patio bar with a live band, where there were one or two guys I thought were nice looking and interesting that I would have liked to ask out or to ask me out.

 

But there were too buys falling all over themselves to get the attention of the one girl in the group who got stupid-loud-obnoxious drunk early in the evening and then starts talking loudly about sex and over the top flirting. Later on she "was sick" and they actually argued over who was going to drive her home.

 

This was over ayear ago, I just heard through a friend that she ended up dating one of those guys for a while, but he broke up with her becuase she was a flake and always nagging him about taking her out.

 

And yet, her over the top "look at me look at me" behavior that evening is what got his attention.

[Untouchable_Fire]

That's complete woman-hating BS. This culture looks at people as disposable. Don't like your wife?Men rarely file for divorce because the financial punishment for doing so is immense. Women file for divorce 75% of the time. It's either income neutral or positive... rarely negative for them divorce her and get a new one. Don't like your girlfriend" cheat When a guy cheats everyone bashes him. When he is cheated on... everyone bashes him., treat her like dirt and get her to break up with you.Both sexes take this spineless route, I cannot say in what percentages..

 

The point is not that you cannot do many of these things. I've been in many relationships where the woman also did about half that list or more.

 

The point is that its not culturally EXPECTED that women do anything on that list. With the exception of staying fit.

 

You should go back and read a few pages of the thread. Maybe you can come up with some expectations we place on women that I could not think of.

 

In regards to your point about people being disposable... No. We pay 600 billion a year for social sec and welfare. Granted most of those on Soc Sec earned it, or are disabled... but the welfare recipients are almost exclusively women and children fallen on hard times. We don't view them as disposable... we invest heavily in them. We tend to view men as disposable... when they don't perform as expected.

[Woggle]

Fire is 100% right. 75% of divorces are initiated by women and when women cheat they tend to still be treated like the victim.

[brainygirl]

The point is not that you cannot do many of these things. I've been in many relationships where the woman also did about half that list or more.

 

The point is that its not culturally EXPECTED that women do anything on that list. With the exception of staying fit.

 

You should go back and read a few pages of the thread. Maybe you can come up with some expectations we place on women that I could not think of.

 

In regards to your point about people being disposable... No. We pay 600 billion a year for social sec and welfare. Granted most of those on Soc Sec earned it, or are disabled... but the welfare recipients are almost exclusively women and children fallen on hard times. We don't view them as disposable... we invest heavily in them. We tend to view men as disposable... when they don't perform as expected.

 

Welfare is given the FAMILIES WITH CHILDREN, unfortunately, single parents are over whelmingly female.

 

And for all your woman hating, women tend to live in poverty, especially if tehy have children, much more so than men after divorce.

 

Welfare is paid to make sure LITTLE KIDS aren't STARVING. Not to make women feel better.

 

I have never seen a marriage implode where the woman cheated and she was still seen as a victim.

 

I have seen men lie about their incomes so their ex-wives can't get the child support they are die, I have seen men move to other states to avoid supporting their children. I have seen men lie to women about even being in a relationship and then set the woman he lied to up to look like she seduced him knowing he was married when that wasn't even the case.

 

Both genders have members who act badly, and life isn't fair. Quit your whining.

[kdark]

I put an observation in my post from personal experience and extrapolated to a wider group.

 

I have been in social settings, I think the one I was specifically thinking about was a patio bar with a live band, where there were one or two guys I thought were nice looking and interesting that I would have liked to ask out or to ask me out.

 

But there were too buys falling all over themselves to get the attention of the one girl in the group who got stupid-loud-obnoxious drunk early in the evening and then starts talking loudly about sex and over the top flirting. Later on she "was sick" and they actually argued over who was going to drive her home.

 

This was over ayear ago, I just heard through a friend that she ended up dating one of those guys for a while, but he broke up with her becuase she was a flake and always nagging him about taking her out.

 

And yet, her over the top "look at me look at me" behavior that evening is what got his attention.

 

I hope you aren't upset because you weren't the focus of the two guy's attention. Why would you want their attention anyway? If they are attracted to a needy attention whore, why would you want them to come and ask you out?

 

But I see what you are getting at. It is the men who can be at fault as well for creating the "princesses", because they put up and encourage their needy, attention whorish behavior.

 

The easiest way to get women to stop acting like princesses is for men to stop putting up with it and encouraging it.

[brainygirl]

I hope you aren't upset because you weren't the focus of the two guy's attention. Why would you want their attention anyway? If they are attracted to a needy attention whore, why would you want them to come and ask you out?

 

But I see what you are getting at. It is the men who can be at fault as well for creating the "princesses", because they put up and encourage their needy, attention whorish behavior.

 

The easiest way to get women to stop acting like princesses is for men to stop putting up with it and encouraging it.

 

Oh, I had a moment of WTF, but yeah, bullet dodged.

 

But if you don't like that behavior in a relationship, why go for that in a room full of available women?

[Untouchable_Fire]

Yes, I'm from the UK. I'm not seeing how you've answered me there though. I was asking you to point to the part where I was being a "tactless tart". I suppose I could offer up a recent profanity-filled post I made to The Collector - but I've met him, we both have a taste for that kind of childish humour, so that isn't tactless because I can be 100% sure he'll get that I'm not being serious.

 

Your question doesn't seem answered because my statement was made based on a hypothetical.

 

I've never seen said post to The Collector... although I'm sure it's funny and in good taste. That guy can crack me up at times.

 

I think anybody who knows the origins of my username will know that I don't take myself all that seriously.

 

It's not readily apparent to me. Which makes me think I lack the requisite knowledge to understand it.

 

The issue of blaming is quite central to the topic you've raised here, I think. A lot of threads that quickly descend into gender bashing emanate from a poster indicating "I feel bad, depressed and frustrated - and men/women/society/my family are to blame for that." To add to the many generalisations already made on this thread, I'd say that the US is a very litigious culture (in part, I think, because there's this system of making punitive awards that can be of astronomical proportions). One of the most destructive things about a litigious environment is that it encourages people to avoid taking blame and responsibility, and at the same time seek to inflict those things (blame and responsibility) on others.

When you're in an environment where everybody seems to be participating in that, it's incredibly easy to get sucked into doing the same thing...but every time any of us do it, all we're really achieving is to hinder our own personal development and quest for truth.

 

Yes, blame and responsibility are key to the issues held within this thread.

 

We do have a very litigious culture. We often use this part of the legal system to solve injustices. This is what Wrongful Death lawsuits are all about. It's the modern version of the ancient Camel Debt System.

 

Bottom line. I worked hard at having a great relationship, and my GF cheated on me... many people blamed me. I was told that it was my fault I didn't give her enough attention, and that I picked the wrong girl.

 

I heard the same things 3 years ago when my other GF cheated on me.

 

I look around and see all my friends are having the same issue. All their GF's cheat.... all their wives cheat... I look up the statistics, and while no exact number is known... they all agree that the number of women cheating in the U.S. is staggeringly hight and increasing rapidly.

 

So I think... Is it really my fault? Maybe social pressures and norms are more at work here. Life does not ONLY play out on an individual level.

 

Is it my fault... do I need to stick to some unknown formula to keep U.S. women faithful? Is it my fault for picking poorly... when every guy around me has the same issue... and when picking how can you tell the cheaters from the tiny minority who are not? Can it really be expected of me to master the crystal ball?

[kdark]

In regards to your point about people being disposable... No. We pay 600 billion a year for social sec and welfare. Granted most of those on Soc Sec earned it, or are disabled... but the welfare recipients are almost exclusively women and children fallen on hard times. We don't view them as disposable... we invest heavily in them. We tend to view men as disposable... when they don't perform as expected.

 

And what does that say about a society that lets women and children become the poorest section of society? Sounds fine to me to help prop them up when they are having hard times.

[bac]

 

She doesn't expect me to pay for everything. This also seems to be a huge change. Previous dates have often had a very expectant attitude. I've been on lots of dates where I felt like I hired an escort instead of made a date. I still pay for everything... I've just never had a woman offer to pay for both of us before... only herself.

 

From what I know, only American women would consider to pay for dates.

In other cultures, a man feels ashamed if he can not pay for a date. He feels that his manhood is defective and he is not a real man. He experiences the same bad feeling in the situation as he experiences when he has severe ED during intercourse.

[kdark]

Oh, I had a moment of WTF, but yeah, bullet dodged.

 

But if you don't like that behavior in a relationship, why go for that in a room full of available women?

 

I venture to guess that in your situation, the girl in question was pretty hot, and the guys wanted her attention for that reason. And so they put up with her needy attention whoring behavior for that reason. Those two don't sound like very high quality guys.

[brainygirl]

I venture to guess that in your situation, the girl in question was pretty hot, and the guys wanted her attention for that reason. And so they put up with her needy attention whoring behavior for that reason. Those two don't sound like very high quality guys.

 

I later found out more about both that lead me to the same conclusion, but that's kinda my point. Is these guys who say all women cheat or are shallow attention whores are also the guys who are very derogatory about women who aren't fit or don't look a certain way.

 

There ARE lots of quality women in the world, but we tend to get ignored.