Is Ignorance Really Bliss?

[ladydesigner]

Frankly, I don't give a fiddling fart about the outcome for them. I definitely did not tell her because I hoped she would kick him out and that he would come running to me. No, I told her at the moment I realized I did NOT want to be with this man (don't know if that makes sense). Before that, I was actually very loyal to him, as a friend. But he kept lying, small lies and big lies, and I simply cannot be around people who lie. It really made me depressed and almost ill in the end. At some point, there was one lie which was one too much. I am like that; I can give a lot of credit and try very hard to make a contact work but when I reach my limit, it is simply over. I had no love or friendship left for this man and I realized that although he is a friendly and nice guy, he is psychologically abusive.

 

His W knew from the beginning that there was a chance he would stray as he cheated on her before they were married... Somehow I think that he is with her because he knows she will never leave him. He yearns for an interesting, dynamic, educated, elegant woman (that is at least what he says) but at the same time he wants to stay married with this simple rural SAHM (that appeared true; once saw her and it was clear when I spoke on the phone).

 

You know, we sometimes have the tendency to complicate things and to look for explanations and reasons whereas it is actually very simple. I have looked for so many excuses for him but when all is said and done, the reality is that he is a liar and that I don't want liars in my life.

 

Well this I can completely understand. Especially the lying part. You did expose the liar and now the wife can make her choice as you have. If she wants to remain ignorantly in bliss well then I guess that will be her decision. You made yours.

[Mimolicious]

But last I checked "Ignorant" meant lack of knowledge and unaware. How is someone who has been given the full deets of what her H is doing going to live "ignorantly in bliss'? Kinda contradicting to the term.

[Taramere]

But...after getting involved in an A, it really got me wondering if Ignorance is Indeed Bliss?

 

If W doesn't know or doesn't feel anything is missing - then, she's either:

A. Clueless and so self involved to not notice anything else around her

B. In Bliss

 

Thoughts?....

 

I think that on balance, a fairly hefty dash of ignorance probably is an ingredient in personal happiness. Not just with regard to relationships (ignorance of the partner cheating) but in many other respects. Hell, a lot of people succeed at things they haven't all that much natural talent in because they don't know that they're mediocre...and so they don't give up at a point when more self aware individuals might.

 

However, I suppose the downside for your MM's wife/babymother is that if and when she does find out she'll be totally unprepared for the shock of it all. That said, if ignorance is coupled with confidence then she'll might be resilient in a way that a less confident person might be. Being someone who's alert to signs of cheating and other problems might be connected to intelligence and insight, but it's also associated with less positive things such as anxiety and pessimism.

[HappyAtLast]

May I ask how long was that? How long did you stay in a marraige you knew was going to end for sure?

 

Twelve years, four months, three days.....

 

OK, not really. Somewhere around 12 years.

[TigerCub]

I think that on balance, a fairly hefty dash of ignorance probably is an ingredient in personal happiness. Not just with regard to relationships (ignorance of the partner cheating) but in many other respects. Hell, a lot of people succeed at things they haven't all that much natural talent in because they don't know that they're mediocre...and so they don't give up at a point when more self aware individuals might.

 

However, I suppose the downside for your MM's wife/babymother is that if and when she does find out she'll be totally unprepared for the shock of it all. That said, if ignorance is coupled with confidence then she'll might be resilient in a way that a less confident person might be. Being someone who's alert to signs of cheating and other problems might be connected to intelligence and insight, but it's also associated with less positive things such as anxiety and pessimism.

 

Thanks for your insight.

I especially think that the bolded part rings true - for me at least

[TigerCub]

Twelve years, four months, three days.....

 

OK, not really. Somewhere around 12 years.

 

Wow, around 12 years!!

I really find that amazing. I understand that you mainly did it for your kids, but what was the quality of home life @ that time?

I would imagine that it would be very difficult to carry on and pretend that all is well for so long, when there must have been a lot of resentment, and especially since you KNEW it would be over.

 

Also, when your kids found out when it was over, wasn't their reaction still the kind of reaction that would have happened before the 12 years?

 

Do you ever have regrets about staying that long?

 

Thank you so much for answering my questions, I really am amazed at the path you chose - mainly because if people stay, they end up staying and just maintaining, you stayed knowing there was a definite (give or take a few months) exit date.

 

btw - I'm glad you found happiness with someone else

[Star_Bright]

WalkinthePark and TigerCub, your posts have made me think more about exMM's wife. One of the reasons I walked away from exMM is that I started to feel bad about how he lied to his wife. Yes, he was "lying" to me too, as in, stringing me along, even if accidentally... telling me he was sure he was leaving but the not leaving. I actually never obtained any direct evidence that he directly lied to me, so maybe he never did. But he would tell me about lies he told his wife, and I would hear him tell her lies, and it just started to make me sick that he could lie ABOUT me, at least, to her.

 

I don't know if I'm expressing my feelings right out here in cyberspace, ha ha. I just mean that it made me see that if he can lie like that to his wife of 20 years (more or less) and if he can keep me a secret and lie about me to his wife and kids, then he is not the type of guy I want to be with. And it also forced me to put myself in her shoes and think about how I would feel if my husband was lying to me like that.

 

I think I lost some of my ability to empathize while I was in the A. I had to focus on myself or else I couldn't continue to be with him. But as it got more and more frustrating I started to put myself in her shoes. At first I thought she was pathetic for staying with him after she found out about our A. But then I thought, well, she has a life and family with him, he made vows to her, she has hope that it can work out... how can I judge her? I did something to cause myself pain whereas all she did was be his wife. Sure, her putting up with him being with me causes her pain, but she is not the one actively doing anything.

 

And it just made me think how sad it is that I lost my empathy for awhile. In general I think that as human beings we need to be able to feel compassion and empathy for other people. To me the viewpoint of "I don't feel sorry for her" (WalkinthePark's viewpoint) sounds very very selfish and narrow-minded. How cam one not care about another human being like that? I know I can't throw stones because I have done a bunch of stuff wrong. But when I stop and think about it I know inside that if I can't feel empathy for someone else then I am not living the way I want to live. I feel really bad for causing pain to exMM's wife but there is nothing I can do about it except realize it's in the past. That's a big thing that stops me from answering his calls. I don't want to comfort/distract myself with him at her expense. If it were up to him I guess he would just keep causing both of us pain so that he could keep getting what he wants, which is both of us I guess, or not having to actively make a decision, or having one of us make the decision for him. I started to see that it wasn't my place to stay with him if he wasn't actively separating from her. He made promises to her that I need to respect or else how could I expect other people to respect what's important to me? I hope I am making some sense, as usual I have a lot of thoughts spinning around in my head.

 

I guess it all relates to the main post in the thread to me because I don't know if ignorance is bliss but in my sitch exMM's wife is not ignorant and she is not blissful, and neither was I. Both of us knew he was not treating us right, and I knew he wasn't treating her right, and that is just not a good place to be.

[greengoddess]

Frankly, I don't give a fiddling fart about the outcome for them. I definitely did not tell her because I hoped she would kick him out and that he would come running to me. No, I told her at the moment I realized I did NOT want to be with this man (don't know if that makes sense). Before that, I was actually very loyal to him, as a friend. But he kept lying, small lies and big lies, and I simply cannot be around people who lie. It really made me depressed and almost ill in the end. At some point, there was one lie which was one too much. I am like that; I can give a lot of credit and try very hard to make a contact work but when I reach my limit, it is simply over. I had no love or friendship left for this man and I realized that although he is a friendly and nice guy, he is psychologically abusive.

 

His W knew from the beginning that there was a chance he would stray as he cheated on her before they were married... Somehow I think that he is with her because he knows she will never leave him. He yearns for an interesting, dynamic, educated, elegant woman (that is at least what he says) but at the same time he wants to stay married with this simple rural SAHM (that appeared true; once saw her and it was clear when I spoke on the phone).

 

You know, we sometimes have the tendency to complicate things and to look for explanations and reasons whereas it is actually very simple. I have looked for so many excuses for him but when all is said and done, the reality is that he is a liar and that I don't want liars in my life.

 

:laugh::laugh: and there you go putting it on her again. That's really funny to me. His wife knew because he cheated before marriage. LOL their is a big difference with fooling arund while dating and cheating when married. i am sure she thought he ould be true when he was married. I love how you throw in those little insults about her too. Basically that she is not interesting , dynamic, educated or elegant. Why do you hate this woman so much? What has this woman done to you? Actually I think she must have some real class that she didn't kick your butt for sleeping with her husband. You found out pretty early in he was married but you believed him that he would be leaving any day now... You keep trying to minimize the affair like you are all innocent in it. It's a very interesting thought process you have going on there.

[greengoddess]

Star Bright that was really a beautiful post. Thank you for sharing so much of your feelings here. It really showed so much empathy.

[HappyAtLast]

Wow, around 12 years!!

I really find that amazing. I understand that you mainly did it for your kids, but what was the quality of home life @ that time?

I would imagine that it would be very difficult to carry on and pretend that all is well for so long, when there must have been a lot of resentment, and especially since you KNEW it would be over.

 

Also, when your kids found out when it was over, wasn't their reaction still the kind of reaction that would have happened before the 12 years?

 

Do you ever have regrets about staying that long?

 

Thank you so much for answering my questions, I really am amazed at the path you chose - mainly because if people stay, they end up staying and just maintaining, you stayed knowing there was a definite (give or take a few months) exit date.

 

btw - I'm glad you found happiness with someone else

 

Quality of life at home during those years was peaceful and pleasant. Just because you no longer love someone does not mean there needs to be turmoil. I also took a job that took me away from home often, so that did not hurt.

 

I was quite resigned to the situation, so there was really no resentment, just a burning desire to raise my boys up to be the best they could be and then exit my marriage.

 

I have no regrets. My boys appreciated the fact that they were raised in a home with two parents who loved them. They are both successful and are both in long term marriages of their own. They understood, when I left, that it was time for me to do what made me happy. They have a close relationship with their step mother, my younger son has followed in her footsteps career wise and they are especially close.

 

I would not do things differently if I had the opportunity. I took care of my children first, then pursued my own happiness.

 

P.S. I also am happy that I found someone else. Thanks for the good wishes!

Edited September 24, 2010 by HappyAtLast
added P.S.

[TigerCub]

Quality of life at home during those years was peaceful and pleasant. Just because you no longer love someone does not mean there needs to be turmoil. I also took a job that took me away from home often, so that did not hurt.

 

I was quite resigned to the situation, so there was really no resentment, just a burning desire to raise my boys up to be the best they could be and then exit my marriage.

 

I have no regrets. My boys appreciated the fact that they were raised in a home with two parents who loved them. They are both successful and are both in long term marriages of their own. They understood, when I left, that it was time for me to do what made me happy. They have a close relationship with their step mother, my younger son has followed in her footsteps career wise and they are especially close.

 

I would not do things differently if I had the opportunity. I took care of my children first, then pursued my own happiness.

 

P.S. I also am happy that I found someone else. Thanks for the good wishes!

 

Thank you for answering my questions.

I'm very happy for you that everything turned out well and that your boys grew up happy and well adjusted and that they were able to not only accept their new step-mom, but to grow close to her.

 

[TigerCub]

WOW SB,

 

Thanks for that last post. It was so open and sincere and I totally get where you're coming from.

 

I have to be honest and say, that yes, although I felt guilt about what I did with exMM, that guilt subsided in my case (as the A went on - partly because my feelings were so strong, and partly because I've gotten used to it), but I was always ashamed of what I did - that's why only those closest to me knew about it.

I'm not saying this as a judgement on anyone else that's in an A. I'm just saying what it was like for me.

 

I'm glad though that I never had hostile thoughts/feelings about baby momma. I just wondered if she was aware at all of MM's past sexual flings, or his EA/PA with me.

 

Thanks again for being so open

[pureinheart]

Frankly, I don't give a fiddling fart about the outcome for them. I definitely did not tell her because I hoped she would kick him out and that he would come running to me. No, I told her at the moment I realized I did NOT want to be with this man (don't know if that makes sense). Before that, I was actually very loyal to him, as a friend. But he kept lying, small lies and big lies, and I simply cannot be around people who lie. It really made me depressed and almost ill in the end. At some point, there was one lie which was one too much. I am like that; I can give a lot of credit and try very hard to make a contact work but when I reach my limit, it is simply over. I had no love or friendship left for this man and I realized that although he is a friendly and nice guy, he is psychologically abusive.

 

His W knew from the beginning that there was a chance he would stray as he cheated on her before they were married... Somehow I think that he is with her because he knows she will never leave him. He yearns for an interesting, dynamic, educated, elegant woman (that is at least what he says) but at the same time he wants to stay married with this simple rural SAHM (that appeared true; once saw her and it was clear when I spoke on the phone).

 

You know, we sometimes have the tendency to complicate things and to look for explanations and reasons whereas it is actually very simple. I have looked for so many excuses for him but when all is said and done, the reality is that he is a liar and that I don't want liars in my life.

 

You sound like me...I didn't care either.

 

I still believe that most people know when they are marrying a possible cheater, they just "think" it won't happen to them, although the red flags were there.

 

My ex-fiance was quite abusive mentally...I split up with him and went back to my home. I pulled out a diary that I had kept when we first started seeing each other...I was shocked to read that I had seen the abuse and chose to ignore it...nope I don't buy the "ignorance" part:)....second bold..it is so simple that it will confound the very wise:)

Edited September 24, 2010 by pureinheart

[fooled once]

In a thread called The BS and AP are more different than you think

the initial post was describing how the W is happy and goes about things differently than the AP who's constantly stressing about her status with MM and how she doesn't get as much time as she likes, constantly worries about how she's going to look for MM, etc....

 

It got me thinking - is the W that's ignorant to her MM's affairs really that much better off?

 

Before that post I often wondered if my MM's baby momma was better off.

Sure, she didn't know that he cheated on her repeatedly, she didn't know that he loved someone else now, but so what?...

She gets to sleep next to him every night, she gets to have him provide for her, and if she really did not have any clue that something was off/missing (which I really, btw, can't understand how that is), then isn't she better off?

 

I always thought that if I was ever cheated on, I'd like to know, because I don't want to be played for a fool, I'd want to know if the person I'm giving my heart to is not being honest or loyal, and I still stand by that.

 

But...after getting involved in an A, it really got me wondering if Ignorance is Indeed Bliss?

 

If W doesn't know or doesn't feel anything is missing - then, she's either:

A. Clueless and so self involved to not notice anything else around her

B. In Bliss

 

Thoughts?....

 

p.s. For arguments sake, lets assume that MM is always safe and doesn't bring any STDs back to wife - just to skip that part of the argument. I'm talking about just being ignorant to the affair and the problems in R aspect.

Thanks

 

I find it kinda sad that you are knocking the wife for either being self involved or 'knowing' that something is up. Do you know for a fact that at home he MM acts like there is an issue? Do you know for a fact that the home is how HE states it is? Maybe when he is at home, he can't take his hands off her? Maybe when he is at home, he is attentive, loving, caring, etc. I don't think it is fair to judge the betrayed spouse the way you have when you are NOT in the marriage. Go over to infidelity and tell the women over there that have been cheated on that they must be self involved or basically stupid to not have realized that the marriage had problems.

 

Or maybe, just maybe, the MM is a liar? Or maybe, just maybe, it is the MM who has issue? Maybe he treats his wife like crap? Maybe she tries to do anything she can to make him happy, yet he repeatedly yells at her, maybe hits her, constantly criticizes her, belittles her, etc. Maybe the 'problems' in the marriage are all of his making? Or maybe they are all in his head?

 

As for the question of "is ignorance really bliss" ... I believe that depends on each person. for me personally, I would rather know. I would rather have ALL the information so I can make a decision about MY life. I would rather have a trusting, loving, faithful, caring man at this point in my life than a lying, cheating scum of a 'man'.

 

Then again, when I am 80, maybe I would turn my head after 50 years of marriage because I don't feel like getting a divorce and starting over. Maybe at that point in my life, companionship (as long as there is no abuse) will outrank loyalty or faithfulness? I don't know...and hope and pray I never find out.

[fooled once]

To me it's the old 'married at all costs' scenario I've heard several times on this board.

 

really? What threads? I have personally not read any thread where it is stated "married at all costs". I haven't been on lately (busy with work and kids) so maybe in the last week or so something was posted. But could you point out the threads where this is stated? What I mainly see is if a person is so unhappy, leave versus cheat. Or seek counseling as a couple. I just find it odd that there are posts stating married couples should stay together, no matter what.

 

I think its hard for people to be suspicious of those that they love the most, those that they want to believe in the most.

 

Exactly. I am confused on why a person who is happily married and feels loved should 'know' or not be ignorant to their spouses cheating.

 

What about if in fact, NOTHING IS WRONG at home? You guys seem to forget that those same "lovely and hot" MM/MW that sell you dreams and make you feel "amazing" are capable of making other people feel the same, even the store clerk. Why does his W gotta be made out to be some delusional b1tch living in fairyland?

 

She probably is clueless and self-involved, raising kids, running a home, etc... oh and being gassed up by some dork, who wouldn't be.

 

But I guess we can say just about everyone...

 

I agree!!!!! At one time, the cheating person courted, wooed and dated their spouse. They whispered sweet nothings in their ear, they laughed together, danced together, made love, held hands, etc. They were 'in love'. The spouse who was cheated on trusted, loved and was devoted to someone who didn't deserve it, but many - MANY - had no idea that the person they have spent years with, planning a life together with, decided to break their marriage contract.

 

After reading more of your posts, I do think the bulk of your reasons for telling the wife was revenge and that isn't a good thing. Look I get your anger, oh do I get it, but she isn't the one that is the cause of your anger and I feel very sad for the poor woman.

 

I took this quote from your other post.

WalkInThePark said

 

As the parent to a disabled child, I take offense at your coldness and cruel attitude about it. In fact, it really makes me angry, because I know so well what that woman went through and is going through. My daughter is now almost 20 years old and I can not begin to tell you of the pain and grief that comes with having a disabled child and oh, just because you have other healthy children and I do have another daughter, it in NO WAY takes away any of the grief or pain away from having another child who is not healthy.

I'm struggling to contain my anger about your arrogance about something that you obviously have no understanding of or compassion for.

 

Good grief woman.........get a heart!

 

I agree.... ignorance of situations and the anger is really sad and pathetic.

 

Greengoddess and BB07, are you telling me that if this woman would not have a disabled child, it would be OK to tell her that her H is a cheater but now that she has a disabled child, it is not?

So having a disabled child makes one disabled themselves because all of a sudden they become a very fragile porcelain statue who is not able to face reality?

 

Of course I told her out of revenge and to get even, did I ever say something else? But I am not the cause of her hurt, her H is.

 

The issue everyone has is why are you so dang angry at the wife who was betrayed by her husband. I get why you are angry at HIM - but why did you feel the way to get back at HIM was to hurt his wife and child? Are you a parent? Would it be okay for someone to get back at you through your child? No! Keep your anger focused where it belongs, on him. And I am sensing you also have a lot of anger at yourself for falling for it. I get that. But I do not believe you are 'over it' because the venom you have for the wife is unreal. SHE didn't do anything to you but YOU did do something to HER in a very vengeful manner.

 

I totally see what you're saying - and I think in some other post somewhere I did say - that one could argue that MMs lie so what he could be telling me is false.

 

But from the vacations that he was taking, since I knew him - only a little over a year. He went on one with his guy friends, and i knew that one to be true.

 

The other, he's taking in Dec. and asked me to go with him (and I know its not a work trip - cuz it way too far for work) and then he sent her to mexico and was telling me how happy he was to just be with his son.

 

But I totally get what you're saying. I just think it was the truth in these cases. Also, forget vacations, I just knew that he'd spend a lot of time with his friends, and he'd always try to invite me along. (so I knew that she obviously wouldn't be there) and then other times he'd be with me.

 

what I bolded -- one could argue? Umm...all MM's lie. Unless they are telling their wife they are cheating, they all lie. They lie about their whereabouts. They lie about their actions. They lie about their feelings.

 

FYI on the vacations - I was married to my ex for 9 years. I went on vacation with him once, besides our honeymoon. Neither one of us was cheating. He chose to not go with me and our son. His loss LOL

 

Having a disabled child certainly makes life more difficult but it does not give xMM the right to cheat on his W or to manipulate me the way he did. Everyone has their own troubles. I don't have a disabled child but I have not had an easy life yet I never cheated on any of my partners.

 

I told her out of revenge and I knew I needed this revenge to be able to continue with my life. This is how I tick. I did not want to be a victim who suffers in silence, no, I want people to know what a con artist this man is, starting with his W.

 

I have no mercy for him nor for his W. Why should I? I don't owe them anything.

 

You can bring up arguments until you are blue in the face but I feel no guilt about telling her nor do I find myself lacking in empathy. And whatever you say won't make me change my mind about that. I did the right thing for me.

 

This is really sad.

[fooled once]

Many many times that gut feeling is acted upon and the husband/wife ask what's up what's going on and it is often insisted over and over again that they are really under a lot of stress at wirk and are exhausted. The stress at work ends up becoming areality because the effort that should be put into the career is replaced by phone callsm texts and secret meetings with the ow.

 

Maybe, like said, the wife is busy raising kids and keeping the house together and when she does ask him, if he seems distracted, if something is wrong and he INSISTS things are fine... what are you expecting her to do Tiger? Are you expecting every single wife/baby momma to automatically starting thinking their husband/baby daddy is cheating because for the time being, they don't SEEM like they are doing enough things together, they aren't communicating as much as they should by the OW?

 

Hmmm. Well I think, if wife is truly ignorant, then yeah, why wouldn't it be bliss? If being with MM. was bliss for her in the first place. I think often there must already be problems in the marriage. But if she doesn't know he's cheating and feels happy with him, then yeah, I can see how it can equate to bliss.

 

I too struggle with wondering how wife could not know. In my sitch even before our affair went physical, we spent so much time together, or even if I was off doing my own thing, MM (before he was MY MM, if that makes sense) was off doing his own thing with his buddies... He was very rarely at home with her. I used to think, how can it be okay with his wife that he stays out so much?!?! I'm sure it wasn't okay but that she just put up with it.

 

Now, she does know. I often wonder how this must feel. She is apparently happier staying with him after knowing, then leaving. It was messing with my head to no end. He would spent ALL his free time, save for going to a game of his kid's for an hour or so now and then, with me. How could that be good for his kids, which is why he was saying it was hard for him to leave?? Then according to him she would ask him if he was still seeing me and still having feelings for me and he would say no. Yet she had to have known if she was asking... and all she would have to do is look at his phone or phone bill because we were texting and talking and emailing constantly and there was no longer any reason to be. How could she be happy that way??? It boggles my mind. But what finally settled it for me was that I wasn't happy that way. So maybe she waited it out, knowing I'd get tired of his crap and she would still have him??? Ha ha. I just don't know. I guess I will never understand it and all I know is I could not be happy in his wife's shoes and I wasn't happy in my own shoes so I am trying to wear new shoes now. Ha ha.

 

Again, you are belittling the wife/baby momma because she isn't reacting how YOU feel she should be. Maybe she is just too damn exhausted from dealing with kids and kids stuff at the moment to be spying on him and checking out his phone? Maybe when she asks him a question, and he answers, she should automatically assume he is lying .... to her.... about everything?

 

I really believe when the OW starts to question why the spouse doesn't SEE it, it is really their own insecurities because dang it, the wife didn't kick him out so the OW could have him. Dang that woman for not seeing what was right under her nose and for not tossing him out so the OW could have him...yet the OW doesn't question or doesn't seem to have a big issue with the fact that the MM who claims time and time again to not have a good relationship/marriage doesn't JUST LEAVE if he is so darn miserable. Why does it have to be the wife/baby momma must kick him out? Why is it on HER to terminate the relationship?

 

Yet so many OW have no problem being with a man who is lying, cheating, disrespecting, gaslighting, and neglecting his kids (those same kids that he just can't seem to be without when asked why he doesn't leave the relationship/marriage) .

 

I am a wife who doesn't check the cell phone bill. We don't even GET a paper bill. My H does all the financial stuff for us. He pays the bills, puts money in savings, makes our financial decisions for our future and even, gives me an allowance weekly but I guess because he seemed down / upset / preoccupied a few weeks ago, I should have naturally assumed he was having an affair versus he wasn't feeling well. I should have checked his cell phone. He should check mine at night when I am texting ... of course, he would see me texting our kids or my friends. I guess the mentality of "the wife/baby momma should check the phone of the husband/baby daddy when he is at home and texting" doesn't fly with me. People text. People talk on the phone. People use email. So what. I text my boss .... even after work hours. Doesn't mean I have a crush on him or secretly want him. He is a nice guy and all, but ... uh, no thanks.

 

I better call my dad and tell him that my mom, who spends a TON of time at the Church (either going to mass, organizing events, being an alter server, 'working' a funeral, going to breakfast with her favorite priest, etc) that mom is having an affair and he is being ignorant about it. My parents don't go everywhere together - in fact, most weeks, mom is the one out and about with friends or doing Church things. So since she is off doing her thing and he is at home doing his thing, she must be doing something other than what she SAID she was doing. And when he was gone for 10 months a year at his job, he must have been cheating because how can they not spend every minute together? Sure, he was off fighting in a war and all, and this was way before cell phones and web cams and being able to email - this was isolation and mom didn't even know where he was stationed, as it was classified.

 

MAYBE - MAYBE - it is the generation of people. Maybe those that grew up in this generation are the ones that have issues since so many have the need to have constant contact and hourly facebook updates. Maybe people just haven't learned how to be by themselves and have their own activities? Maybe the ME-ME-ME generation of constant attention is the difference. I mean, parents are getting 10 year old's cell phones :rolleyes: How utterly ridiculous (in my view).

 

To get back on point, I really don't equate not spending 24/7 together = cheating. And again, no one really knows what goes on in the home of a busted cheater or even an unbusted one. No one knows what is told to the wife/baby momma. Usually, the OW is only told the MM's view - they are not told the wife's view nor do they know if what the MM is telling them is 100% accurate.

[TigerCub]

I find it kinda sad that you are knocking the wife for either being self involved or 'knowing' that something is up. Do you know for a fact that at home he MM acts like there is an issue? Do you know for a fact that the home is how HE states it is? Maybe when he is at home, he can't take his hands off her? Maybe when he is at home, he is attentive, loving, caring, etc.

Very true - except he does what he can to not be home when she's there. I think that alone is a sign that something is wrong with the R. I'm not saying that its all her fault. I was just wondering if she just chose to turn a blind eye.

 

Or maybe, just maybe, the MM is a liar? Or maybe, just maybe, it is the MM who has issue? Maybe he treats his wife like crap? Maybe she tries to do anything she can to make him happy, yet he repeatedly yells at her, maybe hits her, constantly criticizes her, belittles her, etc. Maybe the 'problems' in the marriage are all of his making? Or maybe they are all in his head?

There's no doubt that MMs are liars.

If their R is as bad as you're describing above - then why doesn't she walk away, instead of GETTING PREGNANT ON PURPOSE to "Save the relationship".

I'm not saying that the problems in his R are her fault alone, he's obviously not being honest with her or communicating, but just like in your example you're choosing to paint MM as a monster, don't paint W as a saint.

 

As for the question of "is ignorance really bliss" ... I believe that depends on each person. for me personally, I would rather know. I would rather have ALL the information so I can make a decision about MY life. I would rather have a trusting, loving, faithful, caring man at this point in my life than a lying, cheating scum of a 'man'.

 

I agree with this. I would rather know who I'm giving my heart/life to - and I wouldn't want to invest in something that turns out to be a lie.

 

Thanks for your response

[TigerCub]

 

FYI on the vacations - I was married to my ex for 9 years. I went on vacation with him once, besides our honeymoon. Neither one of us was cheating. He chose to not go with me and our son. His loss LOL

 

Exactly, and he's your ex now - wasn't his choice a sign that he's not commited to the family? That there was something wrong with the R?

Even if cheating isn't what was going on - something fundamentally was wrong with the relationship if H doesn't want to vacation with his W and kids - wouldn't you agree with that?

[TigerCub]

I really believe when the OW starts to question why the spouse doesn't SEE it, it is really their own insecurities because dang it, the wife didn't kick him out so the OW could have him. Dang that woman for not seeing what was right under her nose and for not tossing him out so the OW could have him...yet the OW doesn't question or doesn't seem to have a big issue with the fact that the MM who claims time and time again to not have a good relationship/marriage doesn't JUST LEAVE if he is so darn miserable. Why does it have to be the wife/baby momma must kick him out? Why is it on HER to terminate the relationship?

 

That really wasn't the case for me.

I was honestly questioning if she was better off not knowing. If she didn't see any clues that her R wasn't ideal, maybe she is better off being "ignorant" to the facts - afterall, she would still have the companionship, she would still have "the family", a guy that loves her (maybe isn't In Love with her), but loves her and takes care of her nonethe less - maybe she truly would be happy? - that was what brought that question to my mind, it wasn't about "why can't she drop him so I can have him?"

And you're right, if he's so miserable, he would leave. He's not

Things aren't terrible at home, he gets to have her, have his kids fulltime, and he goes out a lot and gets his time with his boys, and with whatever girl that might spend time with him (not me anymore )

 

I just wanted to clarrify that my asking that question, wasn't about wondering why can't she drop him so I could have him, it was a sincere question about - maybe ignorance is bliss - if she really doesn't see something is missing, then whatever, she could be a happy person.

[Silly_Girl]

really? What threads? I have personally not read any thread where it is stated "married at all costs". I haven't been on lately (busy with work and kids) so maybe in the last week or so something was posted. But could you point out the threads where this is stated? What I mainly see is if a person is so unhappy, leave versus cheat. Or seek counseling as a couple. I just find it odd that there are posts stating married couples should stay together, no matter what.

 

"Married at all costs". I am so shocked, FO, that you haven't seen reference to these scenarios on this board. No, I'm not digging out threads, it's a total PITA on my phone! Most recently I think it was WowReally whose multiple cheating MM was welcomed straight back irrespective, because the fact of the marriage appeared to be more important than the quality of it. jj33 (and boho I think£ have talked about the marriage continuing for appearance's sake not for the reasons you and I would want to stay married. There's a newer poster here, I think, whose MM went back and forth because the routine mattered more than love/companionship/trust etc. In my situation the wife is prepared to ignore the fact there has been cheating on both sides as long as the marriage structure continues to benefit her. I know there are many threads where it has been referred to that it appears one or both spouses would appear to want to continue being married, even if interminably unhappy, than change the status quo.

 

Oh, and I think you've misunderstood the context. I'm not referring to threads saying the spouses SHOULD stay together regardless, it's OW attempting to understand why MM/W says x, y, z (all of which leads one to believe they are truly miserable and would be in a position to gain if they divorced) and yet they stay married because the existence of the marriage, in any state, appears to become the focus and overriding desire, not quality of life/relationship.

[SidLyon]

"Married at all costs". I am so shocked, FO, that you haven't seen reference to these scenarios on this board. No, I'm not digging out threads, it's a total PITA on my phone! Most recently I think it was WowReally whose multiple cheating MM was welcomed straight back irrespective, because the fact of the marriage appeared to be more important than the quality of it. jj33 (and boho I think£ have talked about the marriage continuing for appearance's sake not for the reasons you and I would want to stay married. There's a newer poster here, I think, whose MM went back and forth because the routine mattered more than love/companionship/trust etc. In my situation the wife is prepared to ignore the fact there has been cheating on both sides as long as the marriage structure continues to benefit her. I know there are many threads where it has been referred to that it appears one or both spouses would appear to want to continue being married, even if interminably unhappy, than change the status quo.

 

Oh, and I think you've misunderstood the context. I'm not referring to threads saying the spouses SHOULD stay together regardless, it's OW attempting to understand why MM/W says x, y, z (all of which leads one to believe they are truly miserable and would be in a position to gain if they divorced) and yet they stay married because the existence of the marriage, in any state, appears to become the focus and overriding desire, not quality of life/relationship.

 

I'm sorry SG, much as I respect you I do disagree.

 

I have seen the "married at all costs" line here on LS. Almost invariably it's something postulated by either OW or their MM about the BW.

 

I can't actually recall a BW on LS telling us herself that she wanted to remain married at all costs.

 

All the examples given above by SG are as told by OW, sometimes as conveyed to them by the MM.

 

At d-day through all the trauma, including continued contact with the OW for a short while, it was my fWH who begged for us to stay married (and it appeared to me that it was at all costs). It was a side of him I never ever had seen before or expected to see.

[Silly_Girl]

I'm sorry SG, much as I respect you I do disagree.

 

I have seen the "married at all costs" line here on LS. Almost invariably it's something postulated by either OW or their MM about the BW.

 

I can't actually recall a BW on LS telling us herself that she wanted to remain married at all costs.

 

All the examples given above by SG are as told by OW, sometimes as conveyed to them by the MM.

 

At d-day through all the trauma, including continued contact with the OW for a short while, it was my fWH who begged for us to stay married (and it appeared to me that it was at all costs). It was a side of him I never ever had seen before or expected to see.

 

I think you need to read my comment in context. Ellin said there are women who say that provided the man stays, the wife doesn't want to know if there's an affair. Whether it's an urban myth or perceived wisdom I do not know.

 

I said THAT scenario is one we see referred to ON THIS BOARD, and it does get referred to on the OW board and you've seen it too SL.

 

No woman has ever said that to me in person. But I hear it here and I've heard it IRL. And assuming these women exist?... Well we're not going to see them on LS in any case. "Hi, I'm a BS and as long as I don't have to go through the stigma and emotional turmoil and financial unrest of a divorce... he can do as he pleases. He's had two affairs and rationally I'm pretty sure there'll be more but as long as he sticks with me I'll cope. That's it! Don't need advice or feedback. Bye".

 

My opinion is that people like this exist, but a lot more rarely than it suits us here to believe.

[fooled once]

Exactly, and he's your ex now - wasn't his choice a sign that he's not commited to the family? That there was something wrong with the R?

Even if cheating isn't what was going on - something fundamentally was wrong with the relationship if H doesn't want to vacation with his W and kids - wouldn't you agree with that?

 

Actually, you are incorrect. That wasn't the issue at all. He begged and begged me to not leave him. He didn't like where S and I went on vacation. Simple as that. His idea of vacation was camping; but it wasn't mine. Not spending vacations together had NOTHING to do with the end of our marriage and up until year 8, there wasn't anything "fundamentally" wrong with the marriage.

 

I was in the marriage, I would know

 

It is easy to sit back and blame the wife when you are in love with the MM. It is easy to say she got pregnant "on purpose". Why didn't he wear a condom? Again, easy to sit back and blame the other person -- instead of maybe blaming each of them. I get why you are doing it, maybe you should look at him and the kind of person he was to cheat. Maybe take off the rose colored glasses in regards to him instead of making her out to be the bad one. Did she contribute to issues in the marriage? Probably; but I am not there (in their marriage). But I know no matter what SHE did, the answer he chose ---- to cheat ----- was not the correct way to handle issues.

 

I guess too many people get hung up on how relationships have to be PERFECT or IDEAL at all times. Couples go through rough periods. Couples that have communication, strength and many other qualities work together to get through those tough periods. Cowards run away or cheat, IMHO. No relationship is "perfect"; not even affairs.

[fooled once]

"Married at all costs". I am so shocked, FO, that you haven't seen reference to these scenarios on this board. No, I'm not digging out threads, it's a total PITA on my phone! Most recently I think it was WowReally whose multiple cheating MM was welcomed straight back irrespective, because the fact of the marriage appeared to be more important than the quality of it. jj33 (and boho I think£ have talked about the marriage continuing for appearance's sake not for the reasons you and I would want to stay married. There's a newer poster here, I think, whose MM went back and forth because the routine mattered more than love/companionship/trust etc. In my situation the wife is prepared to ignore the fact there has been cheating on both sides as long as the marriage structure continues to benefit her. I know there are many threads where it has been referred to that it appears one or both spouses would appear to want to continue being married, even if interminably unhappy, than change the status quo.

 

Oh, and I think you've misunderstood the context. I'm not referring to threads saying the spouses SHOULD stay together regardless, it's OW attempting to understand why MM/W says x, y, z (all of which leads one to believe they are truly miserable and would be in a position to gain if they divorced) and yet they stay married because the existence of the marriage, in any state, appears to become the focus and overriding desire, not quality of life/relationship.

 

Yes, I did misunderstand. I thought you were saying that there are threads here where it is stated marriages should stay together at all costs. Those I have not seen.

 

And again, I haven't been around lately, which is why I was confused at there being all these threads about it.

 

So you are saying it is an OW who is trying to make sense of why a MM stays married or why a BS stays married after a Dday? and you are saying it is OW who are stating the married couple decided to stay married at all costs? It isn't actually a BS who is staying she is staying married at all costs, correct?

[Silly_Girl]

Yes, I did misunderstand. I thought you were saying that there are threads here where it is stated marriages should stay together at all costs. Those I have not seen.

 

And again, I haven't been around lately, which is why I was confused at there being all these threads about it.

 

So you are saying it is an OW who is trying to make sense of why a MM stays married or why a BS stays married after a Dday? and you are saying it is OW who are stating the married couple decided to stay married at all costs? It isn't actually a BS who is staying she is staying married at all costs, correct?

 

Ah, yes, the final para is correct.

 

And I think SOMETIMES the OW or spectator, is right. There are people like that. But it's not frequent (and not as frequent as the OW's would like to think ). And what I mean by 'married at all costs' that is that the existence of the marriage, the projected image, the routine... those things can mean THAT much to a person in a bad place, that they would forgive anything (and address nothing) just to stay married. Being happy doesn't figure in their priorities, nor does faithfulness and nor does honesty.

 

And the people that I think would accept that ('crazy' people as I think of them) are unlikely to be the sort to be posting for advice in any case.

 

Edited to add that although I've mentioned it elsewhere, my bf's wife is one of those. If they can pretend I don't exist and just carry on, things will be 'okay', even though things haven't been 'okay' for 3+ years, they've been awful and before that they were never great.

Edited September 25, 2010 by Silly_Girl