Advice for men and women who may be involved with those who are married.

February 23, 2004

Hi everyone. I just wanted to post some advice for those of who are in married relationships. I have been in an affair with a married man for about 4 monthes now. In the beginning of the affair I like many of those involved with married men and married women waswallowing in lonliness and self pitty for the fact that he is not with me and with his wife. I saw him on his time and suffered when he had to leave. Basically I let him have his cake and it too.

In reading about affairs, I cringe at those that last for many monthes or even years. I never wanted to be one of those women waiting for him when he is never going to leave. This is why I changed my whole out look on the situation.

I know what I want, as horrible as it sounds, I want him to leave his wife, not just because I love him, but because he turned his back on her and professed his love to me. He is very honest with me, and obviously not with her. While this is entirely his descion,I won't just sit back and have his cake. I am going to stand up and fight for everything I want.

This is my advice to all of you who were once like me. Stand up and fight, be frank, open and honest with the man or women you are in affair with. Don't sugar coat things. It's NOT okay for you to feel bad and discluded, if you are feeling left out and alone, make sure they know that. Don't be afraid to use ultimatums. For example. We work together, and we were rarely leaving the work environment to go out on "normal" dates. I told him if he can't atleast to this for me, then I had the stregth to leave, even if you don't at the point, they will get the picture.

I find if I don't start to initaite things with him, he will initiate things with me. If the man truly cares about being with you this will happen. If he hears an ultimatum and dosn't want to loose you, he will step up and change his ways.

Some other pieces of advice is, don't have sex. I have refused to have sex with him until he leaves his wife, this was VERY clear from almost the beginning. Sex in an emotional relationship can multiply those feelings of lonliness and heartache by ten, plus there is the risk of pregnancy if you are a woman.

Lastly, don't be afraid to stand up for yourself and communicate what you want. Communication is vital for a healthy relationship. If you do end up in marriage with the man or woman your are in affair with, this can help as well. You will have a well grounded base of open communication to take into the relationship.

Good luck and bestwishes

Chanelbelle

February 23, 2004

All sounds quite reasonable to me. Except this:

Originally posted by Chanelbelle
He is very honest with me, and obviously not with her.

I think that any person, married or not married, in an affair with someone is kidding themselves if they think the other person is being honest with them.

Married partners in an affair give warped pictures of their marriage, impressions that they might believe themselves as they're imparting them to their lovers, but which do not encompass the whole truth -- the truth about the marriage's dynamics, the truth about their feelings for their spouse. They might be lying to themselves -- they probably are. Because someone who is capable of being honest with themselves -- really honest -- would be able to lay out all the issues involved (kids, finances, etc) and figure out a way to solve their marital problems. An affair is not a solution, it's an avoidance technique.

Being honest with yourself is not always natural, and it's rarely easy. So it's hardly surprising that there are many sincere married folk out there who are engaged in affairs and give their lovers the impression that they're being straight with them. The very fact that they're in an affair ought to cue you in to how dishonest they're being, with themselves first and foremost.

Unless you meet a married man/woman who can say to you, "My marriage is unsatisfying in x, y, and z, but I'm unwilling to leave my spouse because of a, b, and c, and am therefore interested in starting an emotional and/or physical affair with you that in all likelihood will never be more than that," I think the only reasonable assumption you can make is that they're not being honest with you. No matter how good they sound, and no matter how much you want to believe it.

Otherwise, Chanelbelle, I think you're giving good advice to those contemplating being involved with a married person. You're basically advocating that people wait until the person extricates themselves from their marriage. In other words, you're not willing to be the Other Woman. Good for you -- I hope it works the way you're hoping it will. And if not, you'll have avoided a big mess.

February 23, 2004

What a magnificent example of self-deceiving, self delusion!

I'll bet your post is really well-received here.

I have some advice for you: Don't get involved with married men! You want to avoid all that heartache? It's pretty simple, really. Does that mean that he won't do it with someone else? No... but your thread deals with the feelings of being the OW. If you were to stay away from another woman's husband, you would not need to say "No sex!" and issue ultimatums, would you?

A lot of what you say has to do with establishing boundaries for yourself, but the premise - in my opinion - is wrong! I think you can't be righteous about boundaries if you don't respect them in the first place!

February 23, 2004

When you marry this so called married man, are you still going to give this wonderful free advise to the other woman/women that he's cheating on you with????

February 23, 2004

Very good point, Carla...

February 23, 2004

ADVICE FOR CHANELBELLE:

Donot chase other womens husbands. Respect yourself enough to get a man of your own. If he is married, don't start waiting for him, don't make up rules about sex, just get a life and a new romantic interest. If you are not pretty or smart enough to land a guy of your own, start improving yourself.

February 23, 2004

my suggestion is:

Dont give any advice unless you've worked out your wonderful plans and this mm has got his final divorce paper and cut his dull wife out for an intelligent woman like you! So you will give sufficient evidences to support your advice.

My prediction is:

The MM will never leave his wife for you. You will cry your eyes out and seek for advice.

Hopefully, that day will never come

Good luck!

February 23, 2004

...one more thing...the way of your talking reflects that you probably are a naive teenager who thinks yourself make a better lover or wife.

I hope your parents know what's going on in your life.

February 23, 2004

Why am I being critisized for being a mistress? Isn't that who is supposed to post on this board, or maybe this is the mistress bashing board? Did I not clearly read that this board was for the other man other woman? I really did not need people to post about what I should and shouldn't be doing, It's my life and my choice about what I want to do, if you only posted disagree with the fact that I am with a married man, then save your breath, your not going to change my mind, I also did not ask anyone's opionion on the future of my relationship with this man or how honest he is. Each relationship is very differant and each has it's own out come, so until you know he and I, you really have no say. I merely posted my advice, take it or leave it, but don't complain.

February 24, 2004

Originally posted by carla
When you marry this so called married man, are you still going to give this wonderful free advise to the other woman/women that he's cheating on you with????

If he ever cheated on me, I would divorce him, something I have already told him.

February 24, 2004

OMG. When asked what she'd do if her MM ever left his wife, and married her, and cheated on her:

"If he ever cheated on me, I would divorce him, something I have already told him."

Lady, you are naive.

1) Why would you divorce him if he cheated on you? WHY, because it's WRONG TO CHEAT ON YOUR SPOUSE and you shouldn't have to put up with such dishonesty/disrespect and unfaithfulness? Well hot damn, I'm guessing his wife would likely feel the same damn way, if only she KNEW her husband was skanking around with you........though the poor woman isn't getting all the facts, or any. How righteous of you, in such an ironic, hypocritical sort of way.

2) I'm sure he promised a long time ago to his wife (you know, the woman he likely has wild, passionate, toe-curling sex with on a very regular basis, in their bed of course) that he'd never cheat on her...but GUESS WHAT? He lied. How arrogant of you to think you're somehow more worthy of his faithfulness and honesty than his wife.

Seek professional help.

February 24, 2004

The war against the "other woman" and "other man" continues.

The purpose of this post is stated in the title:

Some advice for some ladies and gentelmen involved those who are married.

The advice rendered is to "other women" to enable them to leverage their extramarital affairs into marriages. Most of the responses , while great "other woman bashing reads ," are not responsive to the Thread. That's too bad, but certainly unsurprising.

And you're right, Chanelbelle , LoveShack only has a Mistress Bashing board with the significant, and not surprising , exception of midori. If you want intelligent discussion --one actually responsive to your Thread--I'd try another Message Board--one frequented by fewer self-righteous posters.

The only thing people hate more than people who have affairs are people who have affairs but who don't apologise for having them. That drives up almost everyone's moral outrage quotient.

But we all know that...

February 24, 2004

Originally posted by jester
The only thing people hate more than people who have affairs are people who have affairs but who don't apologise for having them. That drives up almost everyone's moral outrage quotient.

In my opinion, I don't think Relationship Forums such as these should even *have* a forum set aside for the OW/OM/those involved in extramarital affairs. It seems highly hypocritical to me, when so many posts on these forums are from those who have had their lives ripped apart, their families too, because of an affair. It almost seems like an insult to all who've been cheated on.

Extramarital affairs cause nothing but hurt and pain and devastation.....to the spouse who's being cheated on (right away, or in some cases, further down the road, when the truth comes out, and it always does), and very often to the poor innocent kids whose lives are turned upside down when Mom and Dad split up.

I don't have any sympathy whatsoever for OM/OW/married people having affairs, for whatever type/degree of pain or suffering they encounter or endure. Why? Because you'd have to live under a rock to not know that getting involved with someone who's married, or being married and breaking your marriage vows isn't the way to go.....and it's wrong..for if it wasn't, then why all the sneaking around? If they're so proud of their actions, why do they skulk around and hide their affair? For every action, there's a reaction, and when you make the CHOICE to partake in an affair, you're making the choice to put yourself into a situation where you will likely end up getting hurt.

However, the poor spouse who's being cheated on, they endure a great deal of pain and devastation, and they had no choice in that. They didn't ask to be betrayed.

I feel that if cheaters want to support one another and offer advice on how to "bag someone's husband", they should start up their own website for Cheaters...and knock themselves out with forums galore........think of all the possible forums they could create:

1) Tips on Betraying your Spouse

2) Highly recommended No-Tell Motels

3) How to Bag someone's Husband

4) Will my MM or MW ever leave their spouse for me?

bla bla bla bla.

I think it's extremely in poor taste to provide a place for cheaters to enable one another and justify why they break up homes and devastate innocent spouses. And that's just my opinion. I've been on this site long enough to have read hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of heartwrenching posts from Husband and Wives who came to find out their spouse was having an affair.......and it is only their pain that I have empathy for. Out of respect for them, which make up a good majority of posters here, I think it's tacky to have this kind of forum, period. And i won't apologize for my opinion.

February 24, 2004

In my opinion, I don't think Relationship Forums such as these should even *have* a forum set aside for the OW/OM/those involved in extramarital affairs.

I agree. Let's silence all other men and other women. In fact, let's ban these evil demons from LoveShack so the morally infected do not contaminate all the God-fearing, morally correct, tax paying citizen posters.

Let's limit LoveShack to the virtuous.

Such cold perfection.

February 24, 2004

right on befuddled11!

this thread made me angry, as I am too the innocent wife and it makes my blood boil when I hear other women talking about how the MM loves them, honest with them, etc ... WHATEVER!

Next time you talk to him see how honest he is when he tells you he doesn't love his wife BULLCRAP! You don't get married because you don't love them, and if they have kids, the OW will NEVER get the wife out of their lives, and also why would you believe that he wouldn't cheat on you? I would seriously question that.

Don't post Cheating Advise and not expect to have angry actual wives talk smack about it. Why don't you read some of the post by these women talking about how upset, hurt, angry, and basically in an emotional hell, why would you wish that on someone? Once you're a wife and get cheated on maybe then you'll understand.

February 24, 2004

I'm sorry, but I don't think one can expect marriage to last a lifetime. (Many are way too young to make that lifetime decision... but do.)* For some, it may happen but for the rest of us I think it is pretty naive to expect that one will be happy for 20, 30, 40+ yrs. with the same person. Look at the statistics... and those are only the ones who have the COURAGE to get out. Many don't.

People fall in love AND out of love. They don't always mean for it to happen but it happens!

Some marriages go stale...fact. Why is staying in a loveless, boring or abusive marriage any different than a loveless, boring abusive live-in situation? You will think, "because of the kids", right? Kids are smart and I know from experience that they want their parents and themselves to be happy and safe even if its sad at first. We only go around once...why not find happiness where we can?

I think the reason many don't divorce has nothing to do with love for each other. It is financial for a lot of those who stay in marriages...unhappily, I might add.

I really don't think it should be looked down on if one has several marriages over a lifetime or if they fall in love with someone else during their marriage. "Feelings just... are." Everyones situation IS different.

* How many of us have jobs today related to our major in college? Or if we do, will we have it for the rest of our working life? Chances are we were 18 when we made that life decision! A LOT of friends of mine are doing something very different today.

February 24, 2004

Qgal , you are banned from LS for showing a healthy dose of critical realism about marriage.

How dare you state the obvious?

February 24, 2004

Sorry Jester but I must disagree with you on this one:

Originally posted by jester
The war against the "other woman" and "other man" continues.

The advice rendered is to "other women" to enable them to leverage their extramarital affairs into marriages. Most of the responses , while great "other woman bashing reads ," are not responsive to the Thread. That's too bad, but certainly unsurprising.

Chanelbelle figures that she's got some good advice for people who find themselves in her position. Fair enough, although a few of the responses, mine included, have pointed out some of the flaws in her logic.

I don't think Benedict's post, for example, was in any way an attack on those in the position of Other Woman. Benedict acknowledged that Chanelbelle is trying to adress the best interests and feelings of the OW; he happens to think that there is a better way for such people to find happiness and avoid heartache. Nothing wrong with offering a counter opinion, surely.

And you're right, Chanelbelle , LoveShack only has a Mistress Bashing board with the significant, and not surprising , exception of midori. If you want intelligent discussion --one actually responsive to your Thread--I'd try another Message Board--one frequented by fewer self-righteous posters.

While I thank you for leaving me out of those you claim are indulging in mere "Mistress Bashing" I think that you're selectively reading this, seeing any criticism as unwarranted. I think that at least half of the posters here have offered thoroughly constructive criticism. Chanelbelle posted her wisdom, others see fit to question it.

If Chanelbelle posted about how drinking a bottle of whiskey a day really helped her chase the blues away, and she recommends the solution for anyone feeling low, I think she could reasonably expect to get feedback challenging the wisdom of her advice -- and even going so far as to suggest that she stop herself.

I have no intention of getting caught up in what is, in my opinion, a largely imaginary "war" between imaginary factions on LoveShack. It's not my place to judge Chanelbelle or anyone else who posts about their affairs. I think they're likely making a mistake, for any number of reasons, and thus I respond accordingly, in language that I hope is devoid of judgement. But I don't think that OW/OM should be surprised when they do get grief from posters. If you've got no problem with your behavior, others' outrage should slide right off your back.

I'm not married, but I do have sex with my boyfriend. There are lots of people who object to pre-marital sex, and I expect that includes some people on this site. If they want to tell me that they think I'm making a mistake, that I should think the way they do, chances are very good that I'll simply ignore them. And if their remarks become too heated or insulting, chances are they'll be edited or deleted by a moderator. I know where I stand, and why I do what I do. If I didn't want to hear people's negative reactions to my behavior, I wouldn't publicize it.

The only thing people hate more than people who have affairs are people who have affairs but who don't apologise for having them. That drives up almost everyone's moral outrage quotient.

Well, that includes me. I might keep my disapproval to myself, but I don't think that people deserve a pat on the back for failing to straighten things out by being honest with themselves, their spouse, and the person they supposedly love(whether that means divorce or ending the affair). We're all human, we all have our weak spots. As I said, I'm not in a position to judge anyone's overall character based on their confessed flaws. But I think there's a difference between objecting to abusive, unhelpful criticism and actually championing a behavior that is in no one's best interests -- and yes, most people agree, is wrong.

February 24, 2004

Originally posted by jester
I agree. Let's silence all other men and other women. In fact, let's ban these evil demons from LoveShack so the morally infected do not contaminate all the God-fearing, morally correct, tax paying citizen posters.

Oh wait, Jester..let me guess, you are or were involved in an affair yourself? I say that because whenever these kinds of discussions ensue, those who take pity on the poor OW/OM/MM/MW are not those who've never indulged in such a blatant crossing of boundaries...........it's always those who are either involved in such a farce, or they have in the past. Gee, I wonder why?

Having a forum for Cheaters, on a site which contains a large large percentage of posts by those who've had their lives torn apart by infidelity, is about as sensitive as having a set of forums for those who can't have children, yet having one forum on there for people to brag and show baby pictures of their children........or having a group of forums for those who went through the Holocaust or who had families who did, and having one other forum set aside for those who are White Supremacists or Nazi-lovers..........or having a group of forums for minorities to share and support each other re: prejudice and racism they face, yet having one forum set aside for skinheads and the KKK. It's about as crass and tasteless and insensitive as having a group of forums dedicated to those who've lost their newborn babies, yet having a forum set aside for those who are going to have/have had abortions. These are only extreme examples, but surely you get my drift.

And frankly, those who do come here to post in this forum, who are OW or OM.....it would seem to me that perhaps the vast majority are none too bright because how many times a week must we read the same old questions? Did it ever occur to them to scan through this forum and chances are great they'd see the same question (will he leave his wife for me?, etc), posted 4.6 million times already.

This isn't about cold perfection. It's about having respect and compassion for innocent people who suffer a lot of hurt and devastation and depression and the whole gamut of emotions, that come as the result of finding out they've been figuratively and literally f*cked around on.

February 24, 2004

Originally posted by befuddled11
Having a forum for Cheaters, on a site which contains a large large percentage of posts by those who've had their lives torn apart by infidelity, is about as sensitive as having a set of forums for those who can't have children, yet having one forum on there for people to brag and show baby pictures of their children........or having a group of forums for those who went through the Holocaust or who had families who did, and having one other forum set aside for those who are White Supremacists or Nazi-lovers..........or having a group of forums for minorities to share and support each other re: prejudice and racism they face, yet having one forum set aside for skinheads and the KKK. It's about as crass and tasteless and insensitive as having a group of forums dedicated to those who've lost their newborn babies, yet having a forum set aside for those who are going to have/have had abortions. These are only extreme examples, but surely you get my drift.

I disagree here too. I think this site's mandate is pretty clearly stated: it's for people who are having difficulty in a relationship -- whether marital, platonic, romantic, familial, work, or yes, extramarital.

Usually when OM/OW post here, it's because they are hurting or confused and are seeking advice. They might not be ready to take a lot of the advice they get. They might be hypersensitive, knowing that others are condemning them, and get defensive even without provocation. But they're not posting because they're happy and confident that eveything's going to work out just fine for them.

People get in the situations they find themselves in for any number of reasons. I believe that most people have good intentions. It's a particular world-view, and not one that everyone shares. Of course, good intentions only go so far, they don't compensate for the fact that actions undertaken with good intentions might hurt people. Including yourself.

No one is going to respond well to being picked apart and berated. There are certain types of probelms that people post about for which I have little patience. I won't say what they are because it doesn't matter. But you'll almost never see a response from me to such posts, because I'd find it too hard to keep my sarcasm in check.

I think that a husband or wife who has been hurt by their spouse's cheating could certainly broaden the perspective of an agonizing OM/OW who's wondering when their lover will leave their marriage. But if the hurt husband or wife can't couch their feedback in a reasonable, non-aggressive way, the chances that their message will get through to the OW/OM are slim to none. Thus they're just venting their hostility in a totally unconstructive way.

Chanelbelle's posts indicate that she is very confident of her strategy and position. Some of us here think she's kidding herself, and have told her as much, admittedly with varying degrees of effectiveness. The purpose of this forum is to offer useful advice to people who are seeking it regarding relationships. It's open to everyone, including OM/OW who find that the path they've chosen isn't as rewarding or easy as they'd initially thought it might be.

February 24, 2004

"If he ever cheated on me, I would divorce him, something I have already told him."

(a) Hard to divorce a man who is MARRIED TO SOMEONE ELSE

(b) He is currently cheating on you--with his WIFE.

February 24, 2004

So maybe we should take it one step further? Maybe we should start a forum for those poor misguided murderers and rapists and child molesters. Much of what you've written, I guess, could apply to how them, too. Okay, maybe that's extreme, but....

I just think that by having these kinds of forums for OW/OM/cheaters serves nothing more than providing a platform for them. A place to support each other and further encourage each other to keep clinging to the hope that their affair isn't wrong and that it will get them somewhere. Instead of taking responsibility for the part they're playing in the demise of someone's marriage, they get encouragement and pats on the head and responses like, "oh I understand, I'm going through the same thing"...which in my opinion just causes them to feel that so many others are in the "same boat" and that what they're doing can't be all that wrong because it's so common.

People don't "fall" in love with someone who's married. It's a conscious choice to love. I will never ever be able to understand how someone can cross over such obvious boundaries. Even as children, they're taught not to take something that isn't theirs. To respect one another's property.

The problem with society today is that people aren't held accountable for the pain they cause. Affairs are a perfect example. Hell, we provide cyberspaces for them to get warm fuzzies and support, fercrissakes.

February 24, 2004

Originally posted by befuddled11
So maybe we should take it one step further? Maybe we should start a forum for those poor misguided murderers and rapists and child molesters. Much of what you've written, I guess, could apply to how them, too. Okay, maybe that's extreme, but....

I'm not sure where you live, befuddled, but in the United States engaging in an extramarital affair is not illegal. Murder, rape, and child molestation are. Much as many people think affairs are ill-advised, hurtful, and worse, people are free to do as they wish on that front. I wish people wouldn't engage in extramarital affairs. I hope to god that if I ever get married I won't ever have to go through the pain of cheating or being cheated upon. But to pretend that they don't happen is ridiculous. They do happen, and often all parties involved end up hurt and in need of help to get themselves back on track.

I happen to think that the best way to get people to re-think mistakes they've made is to engage with them, when they're willing to listen, and have a reasoned discussion that doesn't seek to condemn them and make them feel bad about themselves. That kind of reaction to someone will just make them stick their head deeper into the sand. Or set their back up so that they process even constructive criticism through a hostile lens.

I know that infidelity is a sore subject for many people who have been hurt by it, and such people often find it very hard to contain their outrage. I think that OM/OW should expect that to a certain degree. But I don't think it's accurate to portray the feedback OM/OW receive on this site as either simply condoning infidelity or unreasonably attacking it. Some people do condone it -- and I suspect you are right in your earlier speculation that those who condone it are likely those who engage in it themselves, seeking validation for their choices. And some people are utterly unable to relinquish their own hurt perspective to see that a stranger posting about his/her situation as an OM/OW is not necessarily an exact replica of the situation they were in with their cheating spouse.

I think it's foolish to expect that people will change their behavior just because a bunch of strangers take it upon themselves to start berating them. Before a person is going to change, they first need to understand how/why the behavior they're engaged in is not only bad for the betrayed spouse, but it's bad for them. They need to understand that they are living a lie, no matter how delightful the lie is. Why would anyone listen to hostile strangers?

February 24, 2004

"Because I love (person)" is the reason many westerners get married, and it's not a great one.

February 24, 2004

Befuddled

I have, on occasion, shared your view about the validity of an OM/OW board here. However, I'd say the majority of those who do post are doing so because they are rethinking the whole idea of having the affair. We have some regulars who have had affairs, come to grief, and who can advise those still in them from a 'been there, done that' perspective. Their advice is, generally, to flee and find better lives for themselves.

You have to also remember that some people are actually deceived into affairs by men who claimed to be single.

Most LSers advise that affairs are counterproductive and soul-destroying.

Of course, some people who are already feeling guilty hate to be reminded of the errors of their ways, but that's the consequence one accepts in choosing a course of action. There are an awful lot of folks who get up on their hind legs and insist people take responsibility for things - until that means accepting negative consequences for themselves. However, it takes all kinds.

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