MC progress - or not...

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Oh, wow, that is so terribly sad. I can imagine how painful that was for her to hear that sex with her isn't fun for you.

 

Don't get me wrong....it was an important question to ask, and it seems to have driven home a point that she needs to understand.....but, wow, that would be brutal to hear I hope it shakes her up enough to understand that something needs to change.

 

I feel entirely different.... She knows it is not fun for him and is too thick to understand that while she does orgasm and it is obviously important to her, how much better it could be. He asked a simple question and she just flat out refuses to acknowledge what he or anyone has to say..... Add to that her daddy issues.

 

I am again to use the word flabbergasted that H_V can do what he does, as long as he has, see no progress and be subjected to such nonsense.

[LittleTiger]

Oh, wow, that is so terribly sad. I can imagine how painful that was for her to hear that sex with her isn't fun for you.

 

Don't get me wrong....it was an important question to ask, and it seems to have driven home a point that she needs to understand.....but, wow, that would be brutal to hear I hope it shakes her up enough to understand that something needs to change.

 

I don't think HV's wife is under any illusions that their sex life is fun!

 

She's constantly making it pretty clear to him that she doesn't find it fun herself and has no qualms about hurting his feelings.

 

I think there's more to her tears than the 'shock' of such a brutal question.

[Honorable_Venerable]

I don't think HV's wife is under any illusions that their sex life is fun!

 

She's constantly making it pretty clear to him that she doesn't find it fun herself and has no qualms about hurting his feelings.

 

I think there's more to her tears than the 'shock' of such a brutal question.

Could you elaborate? I doubt I've "shamed" her into seeing / accepting the truth (fr.ankly)

[LittleTiger]

Could you elaborate? I doubt I've "shamed" her into seeing / accepting the truth (fr.ankly)

 

Happy to elaborate on my thoughts HV.

 

I don't think you have 'shamed' your wife into anything - unfortunately. As I said earlier, I think her behaviour and attitude is very child-like. Almost as though she knows she's been caught out. Especially when you talked about her refusing to admit she's wrong and how she sticks with her mother's beliefs until she has irrefutable evidence to the contrary.

 

Her tears at your question reminds me of a five year old playing a board game which is all based on luck. She's happy to go along with things while she's apparently 'winning' but when the dice starts rolling against her she tries to cheat and throws a tantrum when she's caught.

 

In my mind, the tears could be one of two things. Either it's 'tantrum tears' (shame), or it's fear - fear that you're getting too close to the truth or fear of the truth itself. Maybe it's a combination.

 

It's all conjecture obviously because I don't know you, your wife or her parents but if the thought of sex not being fun upset her so much, maybe deep down she wants the same as you - the sex you had before you married - but something (guilt, embarrassment, fear?) is stopping her from letting that happen.

 

I would definitely question her further about her tearful reaction. The tears mean you have hit a nerve and following that nerve, if you can, will find the root. The difficulty you have is that, even if your wife wants to overcome this, she seems too scared to face up to whatever it is that's causing it. Unless she's prepared to drop the 'wronged little girl' act and admit to what she's afraid of, you can't help her to overcome the fear and she's not going to change.

[florence of suburbia]

I think you've said before HV, in another thread, but how pleasurable was the sex before you married? I know you've said she was ok with foreplay then. But was it fun? And did she seem to enjoy it? Was there lust between the two of you?

[Honorable_Venerable]

I think you've said before HV, in another thread, but how pleasurable was the sex before you married?

 

Very. Regular, varied, spontaneous.

I know you've said she was ok with foreplay then. But was it fun? And did she seem to enjoy it? Was there lust between the two of you?

Very much so. Others have said she was pretending all along, but if so, she missed her calling and ought to either be in films or play poker professionally. It was great fun. She'd initiate, suggest, be open to my ideas etc.

 

When we got back from honeymoon, it started to change - first no oral on me, then no oral on her, then her not touching me, to where we are now. In hindsight I ought to have seen this coming a lot sooner and acted accordingly, but I'm too brought up in the "don't try to make anyone do anything they don't want to" sexually so I just let it go.

[LittleTiger]

Very. Regular, varied, spontaneous.

 

Very much so. Others have said she was pretending all along, but if so, she missed her calling and ought to either be in films or play poker professionally. It was great fun. She'd initiate, suggest, be open to my ideas etc.

 

When we got back from honeymoon, it started to change - first no oral on me, then no oral on her, then her not touching me, to where we are now. In hindsight I ought to have seen this coming a lot sooner and acted accordingly, but I'm too brought up in the "don't try to make anyone do anything they don't want to" sexually so I just let it go.

 

I'm sure somebody has already said this HV but this definitely sounds like a 'bait and switch' to me. Women can be very good at pretending to enjoy sex - very good indeed if they're going to get something for it - a ring on her finger or a particular lifestyle for instance!

 

If the change was so sudden, either something happened on your honeymoon that she's never talked to you about, or she's always felt this way about sex and dropped the act as soon as she had what she wanted.

 

She HATES talking about it, as you say, because she doesn't want you to find out something. 'A deer/rabbit caught in headlights' springs to mind.

 

Unless you're prepared to ask her some very direct questions and ignore all the tears you're never going to find out what's happened. If she still continues to put the barriers up then I think you'll have to just live with things as they are or cut your losses and run.

 

Maybe if you threaten to leave, that will give her the motivation to start talking.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Went again Friday before last. I brought up the religion angle, and got shot down. Apparently it isn't religion, it's married sex. It isn't about religion, it's about maturity. A "mature" sex life is about intercourse, not other things. Apparently.

T: If up to half an hour isn't enough, don't you think it isn't reasonable to try more of that?

W: What's reasonable got to do with it? It's up to him. In marriage, a woman's sexuality is for the man to control and develop through intercourse.

T: But he (and nearly every other man) isn't capable of doing any more!

W: Other people get it to work, don't they?

T: Yes, but to those who don't, they try other things. You know that roughly a third of women never climax through intercourse alone?

W: Well I'm not one of them.

T: So you have climaxed during sex?

W: Yes, lots, before we were married.

T: When you indulged in foreplay?

W: Yes, but that isn't the point. I climaxed during sex - so I can, if he puts in the effort.

T: The foreplay was irrelevant?

W: Yes.

T: I'm sorry, I don't agree.

Afterwards, she told me that we were not going to "make love" until we stopped "this silliness". I asked her what she meant and she said the counselling. I pointed out that a) we didn't make love, we had "proper married sex" and b) we weren't doing it anyway! She threw the book she was translating at me...

 

This whole thing is an obvious smoke screen! She is a rational person, but is being very irrational regarding this. The reason being that it's a cover to keep from tackling the real issue. She is petrified of talking about this in front of the therapist.

 

I've been through a marriage just like this... and the smokescreening attitudes and parental relationships are eerily similar. After 2 years of constant pushing... and I mean almost every single day... I learned that sexual abuse was the driving issue. Dad was the abuser and the fear of exposing this secret was so intense for her I'm amazed to this day she told me.

 

Anyway, IMO, here's what's going on. This idea she keeps holding up that intercourse is the only real marital sex and that it is the man's job, this is like a patch covering up the real issue. I don't know what the real issue is, but it scares her to death. She's terrified, absolutely terrified to discuss it. And I'm not saying it's something earthshaking like sexual abuse, I'm just saying it's terrifying to her. So long as she puts up this decoy, and repeats the same thing over and over, she won't accidentally end up discussing the real issue, and so she's safe.

 

If I were a betting man... Based on how she idolizes her father...

[giotto]

there's definitely some very deep issue going on... if this is the case, prepare yourself for the long haul...

[florence of suburbia]

HV, have you read Ian McEwan's On Chesil Beach? You mentioned that you're a reader. This is a novella that reminds me of your situation, about newlyweds on their honeymoon in the early 60s. You might check it out.

[florence of suburbia]

some sort of sexual abuse was my first thought when i read this thread. I am going to mull over this for a little while and get back with some thoughts for you.

 

but i agree, she is terrified to tell you whats really going on, and until she feels safe enough, she won't change.

I'd go a step further and say that she's terrified of foreplay as well. Would foreplay force her to get emotionally involved while the mechanical intercourse allows her to stay impersonal?

[You Go Girl]

I'd go a step further and say that she's terrified of foreplay as well. Would foreplay force her to get emotionally involved while the mechanical intercourse allows her to stay impersonal?

 

I think you're onto something there, Florence!

I don't know what, but definitely fear of intimacy is involved. Emotional intimacy.

I don't think it necessarily points to sexual abuse though, although it might be just that. However, how come she changed right after the honeymoon? That's a fact that we can't ignore...something definitely going on there. She did 'shameful' things with you but then thought better of it?

She thinks all forms of sexual contact aside from penetration are shameful. Why does she think this? Emotional intimacy was discouraged growing up? Being 'hard' was the norm in the family? She fled the room with the tears...did she also flee because having you see her cry is unacceptable? How DEEP does the shame go with real feelings and intimacy?

I think what you are dealing with here is a family that thought certain feelings were a sign of weakness, and intimacy didn't exist.

This isn't just about sex. This is a woman who is very afraid to know and acknowledge her own feelings, and be vulnerable. She was taught not to growing up.

[Honorable_Venerable]

HV, have you read Ian McEwan's On Chesil Beach? You mentioned that you're a reader. This is a novella that reminds me of your situation, about newlyweds on their honeymoon in the early 60s. You might check it out.

I haven't read it, but I went off and looked up some resumes of it - I can see what you mean, but W has never shown fear or disgust - just control and a total unwillingness to talk about sex.

 

The latest came last night when I tried a slightly different tack

Me: I want a word with you

W I'm not discussing sex.

Me: This isn't sex - not directly. It's about good faith and honesty. (Her eyes narrowed, and if she had hackles, I think they would have been raised.)

When we got married, did you plan that our sex life would go like this?

W: Yes, pretty much.

Me: And you didn't bother to tell me beforehand?

W: Would you have married me if I had?

(Fair question I suppose:rolleyes:)

Me: Probably not, no.

W: Well then. Are you surprised I didn't?

Me: If that's the truth, then no. But doesn't it strike you as dishonest to have done so?

W: I never said I'd do the same things once we got married.

Me: But you never said you wouldn't! If you knew and didn't tell me, you trapped me.

W: I did not!

Me: Remember when you sign a contract, and it says if you fail to disclose "material facts", the contract may be void? That's what you did. You did NOT disclose that you planned to shut down our sex life! I've taken my marriage vows totally seriously. For what?

W: Because they matter!

Me: Or because you saw me coming? What about if I'd known I couldn't have children and hadn't told you? Would that have been OK?

W: That's not the same.

Me: You deliberately mislead me. You had this planned. I've put up with this for years now. It isn't about the sex - it's about basic integrity. If you think what you did is OK, why should you expect better of me?

 

I walk away, she cries.

 

We're off to her parents tomorrow for her dad's birthday, so I won't be posting tomorrow / sunday.

[Honorable_Venerable]

I'd go a step further and say that she's terrified of foreplay as well. Would foreplay force her to get emotionally involved while the mechanical intercourse allows her to stay impersonal?

That fits - it's about control and detachment from sex, not the actions themselves, I think.

[xxoo]

Me: You deliberately mislead me. You had this planned. I've put up with this for years now. It isn't about the sex - it's about basic integrity. If you think what you did is OK, why should you expect better of me?

 

Wow, HV, that is some truth and clarity! She might not "see it", but I'm glad to read that you are seeing the truth.

[LittleTiger]

Well that's quite an eye opener isn't it HV?

 

Whatever the reason for her being as she is, the 'great sex' you had before marriage was just an act. Total fraud. She got you to marry her under false pretences and she's freely admitted it. I'm not sure I could forgive somebody for doing that. How can you trust her now?

[mitchell]

I'm still floored by this entire thread.

 

Your wife needs therapy, but I'm sure she would not agree.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

the more I am amazed at you evenheadedness and restraint. But then again I'd say, be a man, tell her this is completely unacceptabl;e and start looking for a mistress.....

 

I have no idea what to do and thought I would never point to mem11363 as the voice of reason, but basically what he told his wife, which paraphrasing was along the lines of here's the choices:

 

1. You fix yourself

2. We separate

3. I find a mistress

[giotto]

the more I am amazed at you evenheadedness and restraint. But then again I'd say, be a man, tell her this is completely unacceptabl;e and start looking for a mistress.....

 

I have no idea what to do and thought I would never point to mem11363 as the voice of reason, but basically what he told his wife, which paraphrasing was along the lines of here's the choices:

 

1. You fix yourself

2. We separate

3. I find a mistress

 

yes, but he likes her in general, as a mother and a woman... she is just a bit screwed up sex-wise... tell me about that...

[florence of suburbia]

Re my reading recommendation -- no, it is not exactly like your situation but still has some useful parallels. You can't really get much out of it just from reading a review.

[mem11363]

HV,

I have performed an informal research project and would like to report my findings the first and most definitive of which is that you sir are a sexual athlete of olympic stature. I could not identify any other men who reported consistently being able to perform intercourse in an uninterrupted manner for 30 minutes.

 

Initially I thought to rename you from HV to Marathon Man. But after some contemplation have elected to use a similar, but even more grueling sport as the basis for your new name. And that is the "Iron Man" competition. That said, henceforth I dub you "Iron Man of the Realm, or just Iron Man for short" for your endurance, stamina and general sexual abilities.

 

On a separate but related note, I believe the conversation you recounted above was entirely fair and I truly hope your W is able to digest it and accept how unfair and hurtful her "bait and switch" behavior is.

 

 

 

I haven't read it, but I went off and looked up some resumes of it - I can see what you mean, but W has never shown fear or disgust - just control and a total unwillingness to talk about sex.

 

The latest came last night when I tried a slightly different tack

Me: I want a word with you

W I'm not discussing sex.

Me: This isn't sex - not directly. It's about good faith and honesty. (Her eyes narrowed, and if she had hackles, I think they would have been raised.)

When we got married, did you plan that our sex life would go like this?

W: Yes, pretty much.

Me: And you didn't bother to tell me beforehand?

W: Would you have married me if I had?

(Fair question I suppose:rolleyes:)

Me: Probably not, no.

W: Well then. Are you surprised I didn't?

Me: If that's the truth, then no. But doesn't it strike you as dishonest to have done so?

W: I never said I'd do the same things once we got married.

Me: But you never said you wouldn't! If you knew and didn't tell me, you trapped me.

W: I did not!

Me: Remember when you sign a contract, and it says if you fail to disclose "material facts", the contract may be void? That's what you did. You did NOT disclose that you planned to shut down our sex life! I've taken my marriage vows totally seriously. For what?

W: Because they matter!

Me: Or because you saw me coming? What about if I'd known I couldn't have children and hadn't told you? Would that have been OK?

W: That's not the same.

Me: You deliberately mislead me. You had this planned. I've put up with this for years now. It isn't about the sex - it's about basic integrity. If you think what you did is OK, why should you expect better of me?

 

I walk away, she cries.

 

We're off to her parents tomorrow for her dad's birthday, so I won't be posting tomorrow / sunday.

[florence of suburbia]

But even if we all agree that you trounced her in that last argument and exposed her as dead wrong for the bait and switch, this is unlikely to bring about better sex.

 

Wondering what your goal is at this point?

[mem11363]

Flo,

There are three ways to castrate a man:

- Mechanically

- Chemically

- Emotionally

 

There are LOTS of ways to approach the emotional castration. NONE better than fuvking with a guys head sexually. Iron Man's W sets an impossibly high sexual bar and then hammers him for not getting over it consistently/objecting to her expectations.

 

I am going to reverse polarity here - you tell me what you would do if your H said: I can only Orgasm via blojobs. And it takes at least 30 minutes of deep throating me to get me off. And any time you tried and didn't succeed he said "well THAT certainly didn't do much for me".

 

Iron Man is taking his balls back. IME you CANNOT have a happy marriage if you allow someone to castrate you. This is step 1. As to what happens in step 2 - who knows.

 

 

 

 

But even if we all agree that you trounced her in that last argument and exposed her as dead wrong for the bait and switch, this is unlikely to bring about better sex.

 

Wondering what your goal is at this point?

[giotto]

Flo,

There are three ways to castrate a man:

- Mechanically

- Chemically

- Emotionally

 

There are LOTS of ways to approach the emotional castration. NONE better than fuvking with a guys head sexually. Iron Man's W sets an impossibly high sexual bar and then hammers him for not getting over it consistently/objecting to her expectations.

 

I am going to reverse polarity here - you tell me what you would do if your H said: I can only Orgasm via blojobs. And it takes at least 30 minutes of deep throating me to get me off. And any time you tried and didn't succeed he said "well THAT certainly didn't do much for me".

 

Iron Man is taking his balls back. IME you CANNOT have a happy marriage if you allow someone to castrate you. This is step 1. As to what happens in step 2 - who knows.

 

that won't solve the problem, though... because whoever is behaving like that should have a brain transplant... and they are not cheap...

[mem11363]

G,

The idea that "well she still won't fuvk me if I take my balls back so why bother" is just totally foreign to me. How can you actually live with someone who you allow to keep your balls in a trophy jar?

 

In fact, while emotional castration doesn't leave external marks, I am fairly confident it shortens your life. FYI: This is loosely a gender neutral comment as their are plenty of males who "virtually" castrate their female partners.

 

At risk of being irritating I will give a classic example of castrating behavior:

 

"I have zero interest in having sex with you, and generally won't have sex with you, BUT if you EVER have sex with anyone else I am immediately divorcing you"

 

THAT is a statement of ownership. I "own" you and will do as I like with you. And you will accept my treatment however unfair or abusive without doing anything to assert your independence. Most sexless marriages have that subtext.

 

 

that won't solve the problem, though... because whoever is behaving like that should have a brain transplant... and they are not cheap...