MC progress - or not...

[LittleTiger]

well, it would be good to know where she got these beliefs from in the first place... and then they could be challenged... otherwise, it's a bit like shooting in the dark... (no pun intended... )

 

It would be interesting to know, but not actually necessary. She got them from a 'proper authoritative book' so we know that 'written evidence' is important to her and is therefore required to challenge that. Written evidence from a 'proper authoritative' source.

 

What would be useful to know is her definition of 'proper authoritative'. If it's religious, we now know that's challengeable because, provided the webside I found is not a one off (and I very much doubt that it is), modern Christian views on sex in marriage have moved on a bit in the last 50 years. However, we don't know if religious belief is the cause, so it may not be that simple.

 

What HV could do with knowing is what his wife needs (what evidence) to prove to her that what she read in the past was incorrect. He needs to know what will change her beliefs, not what caused then in the first place.

 

Maybe that's a question worth asking.

[giotto]

It would be interesting to know, but not actually necessary. She got them from a 'proper authoritative book' so we know that 'written evidence' is important to her and is therefore required to challenge that. Written evidence from a 'proper authoritative' source.

 

What would be useful to know is her definition of 'proper authoritative'. If it's religious, we now know that's challengeable because, provided the webside I found is not a one off (and I very much doubt that it is), modern Christian views on sex in marriage have moved on a bit in the last 50 years. However, we don't know if religious belief is the cause, so it may not be that simple.

 

What HV could do with knowing is what his wife needs (what evidence) to prove to her that what she read in the past was incorrect. He needs to know what will change her beliefs, not what caused then in the first place.

 

Maybe that's a question worth asking.

 

Ah, I forgot about the "authoritative" book... well, still, it would help to know what it is... what surprises me is that HV's wife is a scholar and a well educated woman... so, I'm quite baffled by the fact that she refuses to take any other theory into consideration... or maybe it's just because of that...

[You Go Girl]

I know this one! Assuming she's telling the truth, almost none - apart from dealing with the mechanics of periods, it wasn't a subject for discussion. Apparently men have their "you know what" which they put "you know where" - perhaps this is part of the problem. I'll keep this in my mind for tomorrow - perhaps nudge or push the therapist in this direction.

 

So, you "got better" so to speak? There is hope!

 

HV - I was having a discussion about your thread with my partner and he also brought up the religious angle. A while back he found an article somewhere (can't remember where) on sex advice for newly married English ladies in the 50s - we thought it was the funniest thing ever, though having read of your situation it no longer seems quite so funny and I have to sympathise with any men who faced a life of sex as described in the article. It basically said 'lie back and think of England', let your husband do as he wishes, make appropriate noises in the right places and grin and bear anything you find distasteful .

 

.

 

Well, between the "authoritative book" and her mother "men put you know what where" there are two authorities that need to be questioned. Mothers who don't speak to their daughters about sex, and don't show any goofing around with their husbands, but instead sternness and no show of affection, are going to raise frigid daughters. So the home life was probably more influential than the book, and the book just reinforced whatever she already wanted to believe.

What's her age? Her libido will increase in her late 30's onward until menapause, if not beyond.

And yes, I suppose I got "better" haha. I'm a strange combination of mom and then dad's rebellious nature, so I never fit the bill for religious constraint. Mom's now a minister and I'm still a happy heathen.

 

Tiger, that's too funny.

Although, thinking of England may do it for me sometimes! I was only there for a few days in London. It was lovely except for the horrible coffee and food. (Makes mental note to find out if thinking of England will put me over the top).

[LittleTiger]

Well, between the "authoritative book" and her mother "men put you know what where" there are two authorities that need to be questioned. Mothers who don't speak to their daughters about sex, and don't show any goofing around with their husbands, but instead sternness and no show of affection, are going to raise frigid daughters. So the home life was probably more influential than the book, and the book just reinforced whatever she already wanted to believe.

What's her age? Her libido will increase in her late 30's onward until menapause, if not beyond.

And yes, I suppose I got "better" haha. I'm a strange combination of mom and then dad's rebellious nature, so I never fit the bill for religious constraint. Mom's now a minister and I'm still a happy heathen.

 

Not sure if it helps HV but my upbringing was similar to YGGs and I 'got better' too.

 

My parents are both agnostic or even atheist (I'm not sure), but they NEVER talked about sex and my introduction to menstruation was a little booklet that was handed to me without a word from my mother. I learned that sex was dirty and 'hidden' and certainly never took place before marriage.

 

My Mum was one of those 50s newly weds (my poor Dad!)

 

Fortunately, I'm a rebel too, so I managed to overcome my non-sexual upbringing (I think my naturally high sex drive helped). I have a feeling my sister is still a little repressed though so it's probably something you have to want to make happen.

 

 

Tiger, that's too funny.

Although, thinking of England may do it for me sometimes! I was only there for a few days in London. It was lovely except for the horrible coffee and food. (Makes mental note to find out if thinking of England will put me over the top).

 

Have you not heard that expression before? Wow, it really is an English one then. Not sure where it comes from (Victorian times I think) but you can use it in relation to any ordeal you have to face (not just sex ).

[carhill]

OP, wrt the rest of your M, are your wife's ideas and ideals of 'what's right' as unyielding and as rigid as her ideas and ideals of marital sex? Also, does she want your marriage to survive? Does she feel that working as a team is important to that dynamic? If so, what's her role on the team? The discourse you quoted reflects upon a portion of your role. How does she outline her role?

 

Beware of focusing too much time, energy and care on her. Those aspects should be focused on the *marriage*. She's not some queen to service. Don't fall into that trap. Also, balance the workload. Accept that asserting your wants and feelings will make her angry, and she will express that anger to you in ways you've never experienced before. Accept it. Learn to push back rather than internalize, if interalizing has been your method in the past. Learn how to enjoin conflict and assert yourself.

 

Does the dynamic shared in this thread cause you to feel resentment? Have you talked about that?

[Honorable_Venerable]

OP, wrt the rest of your M, are your wife's ideas and ideals of 'what's right' as unyielding and as rigid as her ideas and ideals of marital sex?

Short answer, no. Otherwise we are very, very much driven by concensus based on information and facts. In no other area do either of us dig our heels in and stick to anything as unyieldingly as this.

 

Also, does she want your marriage to survive? Does she feel that working as a team is important to that dynamic? If so, what's her role on the team? The discourse you quoted reflects upon a portion of your role. How does she outline her role?

Outwith this, neither of us has a "role". We share tasks, share responsibility, make joint decisions. I do some things because I'm better at them than her, and vice versa, but there's otherwise no "that's the man's job / woman's job" dynamic.

 

Beware of focusing too much time, energy and care on her. Those aspects should be focused on the *marriage*.

At the risk of stating the obvious, with her and me, there is no marriage. I can't "fix" the marriage without without her. I'm not getting some "we had to destroy the village to save the village" message here, am I?

 

She's not some queen to service. Don't fall into that trap. Also, balance the workload.

Outside of sex, the workload is balanced - noone gets all the crap jobs, both of us do our bit, and we help each other - offer to help each other with stuff. It just unravels over sex!

 

Accept that asserting your wants and feelings will make her angry, and she will express that anger to you in ways you've never experienced before. Accept it. Learn to push back rather than internalize, if interalizing has been your method in the past. Learn how to enjoin conflict and assert yourself.

 

Does the dynamic shared in this thread cause you to feel resentment? Have you talked about that?

I have asserted my wants - she told me it's not a buyer's market!

"Enjoin conflict" - so I should impose conflict by authoritative order? Force a fight, in plain english? To what end? What will that achieve other than to raise the level of antagonism? If she believes she's right, no amount of arguing with me is going to change her mind. Her position is NOT logical, therefore trying to get her to change it by arguement, reason, assertion etc isn't (as far as I can see) going to work, especially if she firmly believes I'm NOT right. That'w why I'm hoping someone else can open a crack in her assurance.

 

As for the question does her total control over and intransigence regarding our sex life cause resentment in me? If I felt no resentment, would I try to fix it? No, I'd simply walk away to a.n.other woman, or accept sex on her terms as an occupational hazard, and do none of this.

[carhill]

Having a best friend, I can offer that the main difference in a marriage is intimacy of a sexual and physical sense. Essentially, what I'm hearing from you is that your marriage, if marriage were defined as an essentially asexual (at worst; at least unsatisfying for you) relationship between best friends, is a resounding success. It's up to you to define the importance of sex and physical intimacy wrt the *complete* picture of your marriage.

 

For myself, lack of emotional intimacy in my M, and clear and concise statements of 'I can never give you that' from my ex were my positive pathway to divorce. I could've 'sucked it up' and gone on in a non-intimate (by my standards) marriage but I chose my personal health over continuing upon that path. Best wishes for wisdom in your choice. I know it won't be an easy one, no matter which path you take. I hope your wife appreciates the gift of introspection you possess. She should

[Honorable_Venerable]

Having a best friend, I can offer that the main difference in a marriage is intimacy of a sexual and physical sense. Essentially, what I'm hearing from you is that your marriage, if marriage were defined as an essentially asexual (at worst; at least unsatisfying for you) relationship between best friends, is a resounding success. It's up to you to define the importance of sex and physical intimacy wrt the *complete* picture of your marriage.

 

For myself, lack of emotional intimacy in my M, and clear and concise statements of 'I can never give you that' from my ex were my positive pathway to divorce. I could've 'sucked it up' and gone on in a non-intimate (by my standards) marriage but I chose my personal health over continuing upon that path. Best wishes for wisdom in your choice. I know it won't be an easy one, no matter which path you take. I hope your wife appreciates the gift of introspection you possess. She should

 

If this problem could be solved by the good wishes of other people, LS alone would have it beaten by now. Thanks for your kind words. I genuinely appreciate them.

[Honorable_Venerable]

Went again Friday before last. I brought up the religion angle, and got shot down. Apparently it isn't religion, it's married sex. It isn't about religion, it's about maturity. A "mature" sex life is about intercourse, not other things. Apparently.

 

The T tried to apply the "real world" to our issues, something like this.

T: So your husband should be able to provide satisfying sex for both of you, provided he can carry on long enough?

W: Yes. He should make himself able to carry on long until we're both satisfied.

T: How long can you last?

Me: On a good day, half an hour. Never less than fifteen minutes - say twenty to twenty-five as an average?

T: Wow. Really?

Me: By the clock.

T: (to W) You realise that's many times what most men ever manage? His shortest would be a record performance with most men!

(This was the first balm on my bruised ego for some time!)

W: But ist isn't enough! He needs to do more.

T: If up to half an hour isn't enough, don't you think it isn't reasonable to try more of that?

W: What's reasonable got to do with it? It's up to him. In marriage, a woman's sexuality is for the man to control and develop through intercourse.

T: But he (and nearly every other man) isn't capable of doing any more!

W: Other people get it to work, don't they?

T: Yes, but to those who don't, they try other things. You know that roughly a third of women never climax through intercourse alone?

W: Well I'm not one of them.

T: So you have climaxed during sex?

W: Yes, lots, before we were married.

T: When you indulged in foreplay?

W: Yes, but that isn't the point. I climaxed during sex - so I can, if he puts in the effort.

T: The foreplay was irrelevant?

W: Yes.

T: I'm sorry, I don't agree.

 

Afterwards, she told me that we were not going to "make love" until we stopped "this silliness". I asked her what she meant and she said the counselling. I pointed out that a) we didn't make love, we had "proper married sex" and b) we weren't doing it anyway! She threw the book she was translating at me...

 

I went last Friday and explained what had happened to the T. She was sympathetic, but not hopeful. I'm going again, but I see little mileage in spending the money.

[giotto]

well, HV, at least you tried... unfortunately, it takes two to tango and she is not prepared to compromise on sex, like my wife, so it's a bit pointless to carry on, unless you do it for yourself. I find that the sex angle of a relationship is the most difficult to tackle and resolve, if there are any problems. I don't know how you can change your wife's attitude towards sex, because it seems to be so ingrained. You last resort is probably some books on women and sexuality. I'm afraid I can't recommend any!

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I am amazed you (and the therapist) can keep an even keel through all this. I really don't see any hope and am just stunned you have continued so long with absolutely no progress.....

 

15-30 minutes.....Wow..... Know I can seldom do that and am pretty sure my wife wants no part of that long of just penetration.....

 

How do you do it (last and stay in the marriage)????

[xxoo]

W: What's reasonable got to do with it?

 

If she rejects reason, that pretty much destroys any chance of a productive discussion. If she openly rejects reason (admits she is being unreasonable, doesn't care), I'd interpret that as act of disregard at best, hostility at worst.

 

I know you are stuck on the vows, HV. What did those vows say again? Was there anything about how loving and caring? If so, she is breaking them.

[InternationalPlayboy]

One other thing - a few times she kept saying "I bet my dad wouldn't ask my mum to do that" and "I know my dad wouldn't feel he has to do that". She reveres him like a living saint, which often merely adds to my woes:mad:. Other than using his superiority as a stick to beat me with is there more to this?

 

I think Freud would have a field day with this passage. It sounds like she has some severe issues to deal with, HN. You have been the true saint in this. Few men would put up with what you have. I wish you the sincerest luck.

[Honorable_Venerable]

I am amazed you (and the therapist) can keep an even keel through all this. I really don't see any hope and am just stunned you have continued so long with absolutely no progress.....

 

15-30 minutes.....Wow..... Know I can seldom do that and am pretty sure my wife wants no part of that long of just penetration.....

 

How do you do it (last and stay in the marriage)????

To answer the first part, I am committed, optimistic, and possibly far too stubborn for my own good;).

 

As to how I do it - years of practice and self-denial:sick:

[GorillaTheater]

Afterwards, she told me that we were not going to "make love" until we stopped "this silliness". I asked her what she meant and she said the counselling. I pointed out that a) we didn't make love, we had "proper married sex" and b) we weren't doing it anyway! She threw the book she was translating at me...

 

I went last Friday and explained what had happened to the T. She was sympathetic, but not hopeful. I'm going again, but I see little mileage in spending the money.

 

You know your wife has some very odd misconceptions about sex; I'm not sure you need any more reinforcement on that score. Now you have to figure out a plan. The plan may be to exit the marriage, accept the status quo, or continue to try to work on things (albeit unilaterally, apparently). I'm not sure anyone here can help you with a decision to stay or go, but I have one idea you may want to run by your counsellor.

 

Your wife broached the idea, though badly and in my opinion a disfunctional way: a sex moratorium. I suspect alot of men try this sort of thing for short periods, but not for the right reasons. Generally it's a tit-for-tat thing out of anger that generally backfires. Here are some good reasons why this may be part of the puzzle in reaching some kind of resolution:

 

1) You get your personal power back in your hands.

 

Think about how men will all too frequently give up all power, and contort themselves to fit whatever they think their wives desire in order to have more sex or good sex. They walk on eggshells and surrender dignity and appropriate boundaries just to avoid pissing off a woman or make sure they're seen in a positive light just to get laid. Not only does it not generally work, but you wind up with a heavy load of resentment. Now think about what would happen if you didn't give that power away?

 

2) You'll realize how much energy, effort and time is wasted trying to get sex/good sex from an unavailable (emotionally, mentally or physically) woman.

 

Spend your time and energy to take care of yourself, make yourself a better person, and to work on any issues you may have. Discover some new hobbies. Take the time to find out the "real you". Chances are that you've been suppressing that person for a long time.

 

Maybe do this for a set amount of time, discussing it with your W and C ahead of time. It might give both of you time to think about what sex, love and intimacy mean to both of you, and takes alot of pressure off the relationship.

 

Good luck whatever you decide to do.

[Honorable_Venerable]

If she rejects reason, that pretty much destroys any chance of a productive discussion. If she openly rejects reason (admits she is being unreasonable, doesn't care), I'd interpret that as act of disregard at best, hostility at worst.

 

Two other options have suggested themselves - one for a while, the other quite recently. The first is she has one or more serious mental issues over sex. Other people have mentioned this. She never used to have, (or she concealed them very effectively), but I don't discount the possibility. From discussions there don't seem to be any "skeletons", but 'absence of evidence isn't evidence of ansence', as they say.

 

The second has come to me more recently, as people have pointed out her normally rational nature, that she accepts evidence elsewhere etc. I wonder if has stuck to this line for so long, with so many people, that she now cannot break away from it. That she KNOWS she's wrong, and she knows I KNOW she's wrong, but after all these years, and nailing her flag to the mast with counsellors and our doctor, she simply cannot face the potential shame of admitting she's wrong! What started as an excuse to not discuss sex (something she isn't comfortable with) has grown out of control. Whilst she will admit she's wrong, she isn't good at it (who is?), and with such a deal as this has become, could she have caught herself?

 

 

I know you are stuck on the vows, HV. What did those vows say again? Was there anything about how loving and caring? If so, she is breaking them.

I've gone back and checked the wording. It mentions love and caring, not having sex. The nearest it gets is "for the increase of mankind" and since we have kids, you can argue that box got ticked...

[LittleTiger]

I've gone back and checked the wording. It mentions love and caring, not having sex. The nearest it gets is "for the increase of mankind" and since we have kids, you can argue that box got ticked...

 

I think xxoo is saying that if your vows included a promise to be 'loving and caring', then your wife has broken that part of the promise. Her behaviour is not that of a loving and caring wife.

 

I agree. If you decide you want out of this marriage, then this is your 'get out' clause.

 

I also agree with the second option you mention. She is sticking to her 'beliefs' about 'married sex' so obstinately she sounds like a child who can't or won't admit to a lie. If she doesn't have some mental issues with sex then this is certainly a good alternative explanation.

 

Unfortunately, it doesn't change anything. Even if she knows that her behaviour and arguments are unreasonable, she's obviously so determined to 'save face' that she will stick to this line no matter what.

 

The whole thing seems very odd to me. Not only is she hurting you HV, but she's also hurting herself. She obviously knows what she's missing out on and she clearly wants and expects an orgasm from your sexual encounters. It's really very sad that, for some reason, she can't allow either of you to get what you want.

[You Go Girl]

HonVen,

 

I think an appropriate question to ask your wife is whether the notion ever occurred to her that sex between two spouses is supposed to be "fun."

 

It sure does sound like a chore, and a daunting one at that. I mean, 15 minutes is not unreasonable if you're wanting to make it all last or practicing some tantric thing, but half an hour? Yoweeeeeee! I would think everybody's naughty bits would be numb by then!

HV, you really make me laugh. Sorry it is at your expense! But, you are a funny guy!

So, knowing that, why isn't your wife a little more playful as WhineNot as suggested? Why is sex a CHORE instead of a connection, a playful time, laughter even involved?

She sounds umm....intimidating to say the least! Gestapo sex. New kind, originated by HV's wife.

[mem11363]

HV,

General relationship question for you - totally separate from sex.

 

Lets say you and your W have a disagreement over something factual. And later one of you looks up the answer and it turns out that you were right and she was wrong. How does she respond in that situation.

 

And how about the more difficult situation where she has taken two positions that are contradictory, and you point out the direct contradiction. How does she react to that?

 

Lets add her mother into the mix. Her mother has told her the sky is purple. You prove to her that it is blue. How does she respond to that?

 

 

Two other options have suggested themselves - one for a while, the other quite recently. The first is she has one or more serious mental issues over sex. Other people have mentioned this. She never used to have, (or she concealed them very effectively), but I don't discount the possibility. From discussions there don't seem to be any "skeletons", but 'absence of evidence isn't evidence of ansence', as they say.

 

The second has come to me more recently, as people have pointed out her normally rational nature, that she accepts evidence elsewhere etc. I wonder if has stuck to this line for so long, with so many people, that she now cannot break away from it. That she KNOWS she's wrong, and she knows I KNOW she's wrong, but after all these years, and nailing her flag to the mast with counsellors and our doctor, she simply cannot face the potential shame of admitting she's wrong! What started as an excuse to not discuss sex (something she isn't comfortable with) has grown out of control. Whilst she will admit she's wrong, she isn't good at it (who is?), and with such a deal as this has become, could she have caught herself?

 

 

 

I've gone back and checked the wording. It mentions love and caring, not having sex. The nearest it gets is "for the increase of mankind" and since we have kids, you can argue that box got ticked...

[florence of suburbia]

Hi HV -- catch that roadrunner yet?

 

Mem is onto something with his line of questioning. And you're definitely onto something with your theory that your wife knows she's wrong.

 

(As an aside, my husband and I are in a sexless marriage and I am the reluctant partner, making it all the more interesting that your situation has so many differences from ours. Not the least of which being -- Twenty-five minutes!!! Two minutes is a typical length of time for us.)

 

Anyway, IMO, here's what's going on. This idea she keeps holding up that intercourse is the only real marital sex and that it is the man's job, this is like a patch covering up the real issue. I don't know what the real issue is, but it scares her to death. She's terrified, absolutely terrified to discuss it. And I'm not saying it's something earthshaking like sexual abuse, I'm just saying it's terrifying to her. So long as she puts up this decoy, and repeats the same thing over and over, she won't accidentally end up discussing the real issue, and so she's safe.

[Honorable_Venerable]

It sure does sound like a chore, and a daunting one at that. I mean, 15 minutes is not unreasonable if you're wanting to make it all last or practicing some tantric thing, but half an hour? Yoweeeeeee! I would think everybody's naughty bits would be numb by then!

HV, you really make me laugh. Sorry it is at your expense! But, you are a funny guy!

So, knowing that, why isn't your wife a little more playful as WhineNot as suggested? Why is sex a CHORE instead of a connection, a playful time, laughter even involved?

She sounds umm....intimidating to say the least! Gestapo sex. New kind, originated by HV's wife.

In reply to you, and to WhineNot, here goes...

 

I try to maintain a sense of humour in this - it helps. There's a quote from one of my favourite novels where an officer asks a sergeant why the men laugh, and the sergeant replies that if they didn't they wouldn't be able to go on.

 

I have muttered about the effort involved before now, but never openly questioned "why isn't this fun". So I tried it.

Me: Question for you.

W: Oh g.d, not sex again! (much sighing and rolling of eyes)

Me: How come it's all hard work and no fun? I mean, it's meant to be fun, isn't it?

No reply. Fled in tears. Other than simple messages about what the kids need for school, hasn't spoken to me.

 

There is an old proverb which says "When man stuck in hole, best he stop bloody digging!"

[Honorable_Venerable]

HV,

General relationship question for you - totally separate from sex.

 

Lets say you and your W have a disagreement over something factual. And later one of you looks up the answer and it turns out that you were right and she was wrong. How does she respond in that situation.

Depending on how attached she was to her position, the burden of proof varies somewhat, but usually with a bit of grunting she will accept the truth.

 

And how about the more difficult situation where she has taken two positions that are contradictory, and you point out the direct contradiction. How does she react to that?

Badly. She takes it, but with extremely poor grace. She's told me that her least favourite phrase of mine is "You can't have it both ways".

 

Lets add her mother into the mix. Her mother has told her the sky is purple. You prove to her that it is blue. How does she respond to that?

She will argue incessantly that you're wrong, at endless length, then when presented with irrefutable proof, she'll tell you she agreed with you all along anyway (i.e. she will not admit she was wrong!). The old bag has more sh** in her than a municipal sewage works!

[Honorable_Venerable]

Hi HV -- catch that roadrunner yet?

No, but those bloody flying anvils are starting to get on my wick! ;-)

 

Mem is onto something with his line of questioning. And you're definitely onto something with your theory that your wife knows she's wrong.

 

(As an aside, my husband and I are in a sexless marriage and I am the reluctant partner, making it all the more interesting that your situation has so many differences from ours. Not the least of which being -- Twenty-five minutes!!! Two minutes is a typical length of time for us.)

 

Anyway, IMO, here's what's going on. This idea she keeps holding up that intercourse is the only real marital sex and that it is the man's job, this is like a patch covering up the real issue. I don't know what the real issue is, but it scares her to death. She's terrified, absolutely terrified to discuss it. And I'm not saying it's something earthshaking like sexual abuse, I'm just saying it's terrifying to her. So long as she puts up this decoy, and repeats the same thing over and over, she won't accidentally end up discussing the real issue, and so she's safe.

She HATES discussing sex. Within her limits she is content with the act, but she hates discussion - "I'd rather have root canal work without anaesthetic" was her position when we started at counselling.

Edited October 6, 2010 by Honorable_Venerable

[LittleTiger]

There is an old proverb which says "When man stuck in hole, best he stop bloody digging!"

 

Yes, this may be true, but unless you're prepared to jump out now, you might as well keep digging because there could be a ladder buried just underneath you.

 

Continuing with mem's line of questioning, I would ask your wife:

 

"What made you so upset when I asked about sex being fun?"

 

There's something she's not telling you here and I really don't think you've got anything to lose by pursuing the answer a little more 'aggressively'.

[xxoo]

Me: How come it's all hard work and no fun? I mean, it's meant to be fun, isn't it?

No reply. Fled in tears. Other than simple messages about what the kids need for school, hasn't spoken to me.

 

Oh, wow, that is so terribly sad. I can imagine how painful that was for her to hear that sex with her isn't fun for you.

 

Don't get me wrong....it was an important question to ask, and it seems to have driven home a point that she needs to understand.....but, wow, that would be brutal to hear I hope it shakes her up enough to understand that something needs to change.