MC progress - or not...

[Honorable_Venerable]

We went for our first Relate appointement a few weeks ago, but with issues over childcare (i.e. we don't have any other sort of cover during the long summer holiday, it went on hiatus for a short time. Now the kids are back at school we can get away during the day for appointments.

 

Well, we arrived for the first one and met our counsellor. She seems a lovely woman, roughly our age, similar family position (hopefully without the issues!) and similar background (university, no family nearby etc). She made no secret of the fact that her "discipline" is transactional analysis, and asked if we were OK with her using this approach. Since neither my wife nor I would know transactional analysis from transport management, we agreed and tried to look understanding and impressed.

 

We went through what we wanted to achieve - we'd discussed the form of words before and come up with "sex that is mutually satisfying, reasonably frequent and sufficiently varied to keep it fresh without forcing either partner to do anything they find unacceptable". Seems fair enough on first reading, but I now wonder if it allows too much room for escape.

 

There followed a bit of family background, a bit of personal history (non-sexual), what our wider family life is like, and how we met. This was all pretty good, and went well with both W and I contributing reasonably and fairly equally. Then we moved onto our sex life, and it went very quiet. I was left doing nearly all the talking, explaining my decision regarding reducing my sex drive, my visit to the doctor, the discussions afterwards, and what I saw as the issues that had lead to it. I kept stopping and leaving space for W, asking her to confirm, asking "open questions", as did the counsellor, but she was monosyllabic from that point on. She was unwilling to make any sort of point regarding why I was in the wrong, but neither would she defend her position except to say "we DO have sex".

The atmosphere on the return journey was frosty to say the least, and she was pretty standoffish, but agreed to go again.

 

Before we left the counsellor gave us a couple of questionnaire / survey type forms to fill in, where we had to detail how we regarded different things, how we rated different parts of our relationship, what importance we placed on different things and how we felt the other partner rated their importance. We were also given similar ones about our sexual experiences, before we met, when we were together before we were married and now. We were told to fill these in separately, i.e. not to crib off each other, and to be as honest as we could. Fair enough, so far, so good.

We got to the meeting and I had a couple of surprises. We marked the importance of things within our relationship in very nearly the same way, which was a bit of a surprise to all present, I think. The major difference came with how we perceived the other rated them, where she felt she rated as sex life as critically important (5/5), whereas I gave her a couldn't care less mark. I had given myself a medium to high mark (4 out of 5) on my perceived importance about what other people thought of us, and she gave me a zero.

Then came the sexual history. What we did together now was a short list. What we used to do was considerably longer, and W was clearly unhappy the list was gone through with a third party. The before we we together, both resembled what we had done together before marriage. Then came the list of things we'd done (yes / no). No extras on hers we hadn't done together. Mine included anal sex. W knew about this - I'd had A once, with a girlfriend when I was a student. We'd used protection, and both been really embarrassed afterwards, never did it again together and never at all for me.

W flipped: "Why do you have to bring up that sort of thing? Why do you have to tell her that? Why do you have to drag me into this sort of thing? If you'd just do what I want, the way I want it, we wouldn't have to air this in public!" Counsellor managed to calm her a bit, but we wrapped up the session then, and she hasn't spoken to me except for "necessary communication" since. We have another appointment on Friday, and she has said we are going, but I am WAY beyond apprehensive about how this is going to play.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

this is why I wonder about counseling. Always someone wnat it and the other is leary and may go to it only to shut up or close off when it does not go his or her way.

 

Then at the end of the day, the counselors recommendations can too fall on deaf ears.... And worse, IC and they suggest swinging, Open marriages or affairs as betweenarockandhardplace's counselor did.....

[xxoo]

I actually think it is going as well as can be expected. I'd be encouraged that she is going and opening up, even if it is in outrage. Communicating outrage is still communicating. Could be worse

 

You can't get through tough spots without conflict. You've confronted her on your own and gotten nowhere, so now you are confronting with a third party mediator. One appt at a time, try to stay positive and see how it goes. I'm routing for you guys!

[Honorable_Venerable]

I actually think it is going as well as can be expected. I'd be encouraged that she is going and opening up, even if it is in outrage. Communicating outrage is still communicating. Could be worse

 

You can't get through tough spots without conflict. You've confronted her on your own and gotten nowhere, so now you are confronting with a third party mediator. One appt at a time, try to stay positive and see how it goes.

 

Thanks! I need all the encouragement I can get, to overcome those "This could go very badly - no wait it IS going very badly" moments.

I'm routing for you guys!

What, like Norm on the New Yankee Workshop? "There is no more importaant safety rule than to wear these, safety glasses!":lmao:

Thanks XXOO, I appreciate all your kind thoughts.

[giotto]

Good luck, HV. We went to Relate as well and we lasted about 6 sessions. We spoke very little about sex - although it was the real bone of contention for me - since the counsellor didn't seem to put much important on it. And my wife was very embarrassed to talk about anything, anyway (although she suggested it!). When I foolishly admitted I wasn't going to leave her just for sex, it was over. She had "won". Suddenly the counsellor was crap and we stopped going. Sex life went from twice a month to once a month. I got very angry and impossible to live with. We separated...

Don't make the mistake of being too accommodating, or you won't get anything from it.

[LittleTiger]

It seems your wife is going to be a tough nut to crack HV, and she clearly has a lot of issues about something, but the mere fact that she has agreed to go to counselling is a very positive thing in my book.

 

To me it says she hasn't given up and wants to sort things out. She's obviously unhappy herself with the way things are and, if you take it one session at a time, I think you may make progress. She didn't refuse to talk about the sex did she? She got annoyed that she had to - very important difference I think. She's also prepared to go back for another session, which suggests she is willing at some level to work on this.

 

There's no guarantee that she'll ever change but she's at least prepared to attend the sessions and, at some level, she's willing to talk (albeit in her own time) and that's a very positive start.

[mitchell]

I found this to be an interesting read. It's great that you are going and at least communicating. Your wife seems a bit defensive. Did she expect that only you would have to answer the tough questions?

 

I'm considering MC myself, so I'm following your experience closely. Please keep us updated.

[xxoo]

What, like Norm on the New Yankee Workshop? "There is no more importaant safety rule than to wear these, safety glasses!":lmao:.

 

Yep! I'm making a candle holder for you in woodshop class. You can use it for your soon-to-come romantic evenings

 

(I always spell that wrong....)

[Honorable_Venerable]

Yep! I'm making a candle holder for you in woodshop class. You can use it for your soon-to-come romantic evenings

 

(I always spell that wrong....)

Sorry, I just couldn't resist it. I need all the levity I can get...

 

To Mitchell et al, I'll try to answer everything in one go:

I don't think she wanted me to do all the talking, rather she didn't want anyone to do any talking. Sex is not something you discuss, not in detail (here I don't mean in a sense of using profanity, but you simply do not discuss the mechanics in any sense). She has never been comfortable discussing sex except when she's angry. The usual way is not to say "Do xxx", but rather to say "No don't do that!".

 

Giotto - we went with a (sort of) referral regarding sex, rather than general relationship issues, so the focus on sex is probably stronger that it might be in "general" MC.

 

What concerns me is that we are going to hit a wall simply because she either has no mechanism to communicate about sex or refuses to. It was like those conversations you have with a child where you're trying to tease out why something happened that shouldn't have, they know that they aren't going to come out smelling of roses no matter what, so the information has to be dragged out of them one word at a time.

[giotto]

Giotto - we went with a (sort of) referral regarding sex, rather than general relationship issues, so the focus on sex is probably stronger that it might be in "general" MC.

 

Ah, yes, forgot about that! We weren't referred, my wife booked it...

 

What concerns me is that we are going to hit a wall simply because she either has no mechanism to communicate about sex or refuses to. It was like those conversations you have with a child where you're trying to tease out why something happened that shouldn't have, they know that they aren't going to come out smelling of roses no matter what, so the information has to be dragged out of them one word at a time.

 

mmm... sounds familiar...hopefully her issues are not too irreversible... but prepare yourself for a big battle and possibly defeat. Changing people at this later stage is, as far as I'm concerned, almost impossible...

[LittleTiger]

Sex is not something you discuss, not in detail (here I don't mean in a sense of using profanity, but you simply do not discuss the mechanics in any sense). She has never been comfortable discussing sex except when she's angry. The usual way is not to say "Do xxx", but rather to say "No don't do that!"

 

If I remember correctly, you said sex between you was good before you married? That she was happy to have a varied and 'normal' sex life? Did that not include talking about sex, or was she uncomfortable about it then too?

[Honorable_Venerable]

Bit of a delay replying. Things were pretty stressed, then I’ve had to fire a staff member at work.

Last Friday we started going into the underlying belief structures. The “why” of sex, if you like. This is the distillation of short of an hour of discussion. It went sort of like this:

 

Therapist: You used to have a more variable sex life, before you were married. Did a variety of different things? Why did you stop?

Wife: Because that isn’t what married sex is about.

T: Why? In what way?

W: All that other stuff is what you do when you can’t have real sex. Once you’re married, you have real sex. Intercourse. You don’t do that other stuff – you don’t need to, you should concentrate on real sex.

 

This went back and forth a bit, then we got to:

T: So this is why you don’t let your H use his hands or perform oral sex?

W: Yes. He shouldn’t need to. He should be able to meet all our needs just by intercourse.

T: And if he can’t?

W: Then he needs to work harder! He barely tries! The last time he didn’t even manage a quarter of an hour!

T: So if he lasts longer, does it work?

W: No. Half an hour’s not enough. He needs to put some more effort in.

T: If he can’t make you come in that time, doesn’t it suggest that you need to try something different?

W: No. That’s what married sex is about. He should be able to satisfy us. That’s all it should need. He needs to pick up his game a bit.

T: But he can’t. Why won’t you let him try something different?

W: Because that would be a cop-out. Where’s the satisfaction in that? Where’s the effort? We wouldn’t be having proper married sex. He’s my husband, it’s his job to ensure that sex is good.

T: But how can he make it good if you won’t let him work on improving it?

W: He’s the husband. He should be able to. If he can’t, it isn’t my fault.

T: But if he can’t, and you won’t help him, how is he supposed to make your sex life right?

W: He’s the husband, he should just be able to.

T: But how?

W: He just should! It’s his duty.

T: So him trying to make your sex life better is something that he should be able to do just by magic?

W: He’s the husband. He should be able to satisfy the wife. He shouldn’t need to try anything else. I’m not interested in that.

Through almost all of this she referred to “THE husband” and “THE wife” – describing us in the third person.

 

T: So him trying to make things better in your sex life isn’t important to you?

W: Yes, it is, but only the right way. I want married sex. As far as the other stuff he wants goes, it isn’t a buyer’s market.

T: Why do you say that intercourse alone is “proper married sex”?

W: Well, it is, isn’t it? I read that years ago. All that other stuff isn’t proper sex, is it? That’s messing about.

T: Where did you read it?

W: Can’t remember. It wasn’t some cheap magazine – it was a proper, authoritative book (her exact words). That’s what married sex is. If he can’t make it right, the right way, it isn’t my job to give him a free pass to stop trying.

T: So if I suggest some exercises to improve closeness, or some foreplay, you don't think that would help?

W: I don't want foreplay! Foreplay is for people who can't have proper married sex properly!

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Bit of a delay replying. Things were pretty stressed, then I’ve had to fire a staff member at work.

Last Friday we started going into the underlying belief structures. The “why” of sex, if you like. This is the distillation of short of an hour of discussion. It went sort of like this:

 

Therapist: You used to have a more variable sex life, before you were married. Did a variety of different things? Why did you stop?

Wife: Because that isn’t what married sex is about.

T: Why? In what way?

W: All that other stuff is what you do when you can’t have real sex. Once you’re married, you have real sex. Intercourse. You don’t do that other stuff – you don’t need to, you should concentrate on real sex.

 

This went back and forth a bit, then we got to:

T: So this is why you don’t let your H use his hands or perform oral sex?

W: Yes. He shouldn’t need to. He should be able to meet all our needs just by intercourse.

T: And if he can’t?

W: Then he needs to work harder! He barely tries! The last time he didn’t even manage a quarter of an hour!

T: So if he lasts longer, does it work?

W: No. Half an hour’s not enough. He needs to put some more effort in.

T: If he can’t make you come in that time, doesn’t it suggest that you need to try something different?

W: No. That’s what married sex is about. He should be able to satisfy us. That’s all it should need. He needs to pick up his game a bit.

T: But he can’t. Why won’t you let him try something different?

W: Because that would be a cop-out. Where’s the satisfaction in that? Where’s the effort? We wouldn’t be having proper married sex. He’s my husband, it’s his job to ensure that sex is good.

T: But how can he make it good if you won’t let him work on improving it?

W: He’s the husband. He should be able to. If he can’t, it isn’t my fault.

T: But if he can’t, and you won’t help him, how is he supposed to make your sex life right?

W: He’s the husband, he should just be able to.

T: But how?

W: He just should! It’s his duty.

T: So him trying to make your sex life better is something that he should be able to do just by magic?

W: He’s the husband. He should be able to satisfy the wife. He shouldn’t need to try anything else. I’m not interested in that.

Through almost all of this she referred to “THE husband” and “THE wife” – describing us in the third person.

 

T: So him trying to make things better in your sex life isn’t important to you?

W: Yes, it is, but only the right way. I want married sex. As far as the other stuff he wants goes, it isn’t a buyer’s market.

T: Why do you say that intercourse alone is “proper married sex”?

W: Well, it is, isn’t it? I read that years ago. All that other stuff isn’t proper sex, is it? That’s messing about.

T: Where did you read it?

W: Can’t remember. It wasn’t some cheap magazine – it was a proper, authoritative book (her exact words). That’s what married sex is. If he can’t make it right, the right way, it isn’t my job to give him a free pass to stop trying.

T: So if I suggest some exercises to improve closeness, or some foreplay, you don't think that would help?

W: I don't want foreplay! Foreplay is for people who can't have proper married sex properly!

 

I am flabbergasted.... This is unfathomable.... I take it there was no need for you to say anything? It would take yeoman effort for 99.99% of men to thrust for 30 minutes minimum.... How is that even possible? All the literature in the world says different and she won't have any part of it?

 

I am so sorry and wonder where this can lead. This is beyond the scope of MC and is, if even salvageable, requires the intervention of a sex therapist.....

Edited September 22, 2010 by Toodamnpragmatic

[mitchell]

This is truly disturbing. I cannot even imagine the thoughts running through your therapist's head during this interchange.

 

I'm sorry to hear this.

[LittleTiger]

I am flabbergasted.... This is unfathomable.... I take it there was no need for you to say anything? It would take yeoman effort for 99.99% of men to thrust for 30 minutes minimum.... How is that even possible? All the literature in the world says different and she won't have any part of it?

 

I am so sorry and wonder where this can lead. This is beyond the scope of MC and is, if even salvageable, requires the intervention of a sex therapist.....

 

I'll second that - I think you need a sex specialist not an ordinary marriage counsellor!

 

Where on earth did she get such rigid and strange ideas about sex? Who the h*ll wrote a book spouting such rubbish?

 

So what exactly is the point of 'married sex' to her? Her orgasm? What about intimacy and physical affection?

 

I'm guessing she wouldn't consider IC?

 

I'm just stunned...........

[xxoo]

At least the therapist is getting an honest picture of the problem. And she's talking! Yeah, what she says is mind boggling, but at least she's SAYING it--not denying the issues, or saying that you are making it all up.

 

At some point, I'd expect this therapist to introduce some stats and facts about the normal range of human sexual response, and how her idea of "married sex" is warped, at best.

[giotto]

requires the intervention of a sex therapist.....

 

he (or she) is a sex therapist... HV and his wife were referred to a specialist because their problems were specifically of a sex nature... he says it earlier on in one of his posts...

 

Edit: no, it's a normal therapist, specialising in sex issues... sorry about that! Still, quite extraordinary!

Edited September 22, 2010 by giotto

[luvstarved]

OH! MY! GOD!

 

How old is your wife? I wonder if there is any hope of knocking this crap out of her head. I don't think I've ever heard anything like it!!

 

Wow, just WOW.

 

I think just about any other book on the planet about sex, married or not, would completely contradict these notions. Maybe you could get a few "proper authoritative" books and let her read them. Could maybe her parents have put this in her head? I'm really stunned too...

 

I can't see how you can be very enthusiastic about sex either with that kind of performance pressure on you...

 

This is a really, really tough one...

[You Go Girl]

There is a God, and it is Honorable_vunerable. He can last half an hour, and must on a regular basis.

hehe!

All kidding aside, your story is something else. What church does this woman go to?

Is there any chance that there is a protestant (I'm assuming she is that) book out there on sex that advocates ANYTHING other than missionary pounding away?

I mean, if we must go down this religious route, and I'm assuming that is what her hangup is, then can't you find a book that tells her that she is to obey her H and satisfy him sexually in diverse ways?

It might be manipulation, but what other choice is left?!

[Honorable_Venerable]

There is a God, and it is Honorable_vunerable. He can last half an hour, and must on a regular basis.

A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do:sick:

hehe!

All kidding aside, your story is something else. What church does this woman go to?

I wonder about the religious angle. She's common or garden Church of England, just attends the local parish church about every other week. I was baptised a catholic but came from a family where otherwise you ignored God and assumed He returned the favour. I know she went through a religious phase (her family are about as devout as mine, BTW, so there's no long history of that) in her late teens, but says she "went back to normal". She doesn't bring religion into the M to any great extent otherwise.

 

Having essentially no connection to this lifestyle myself, is it possible that she picked this up from some religious tract or guidebook and it stuck in her mind to the absence of the other content?

Is there any chance that there is a protestant (I'm assuming she is that) book out there on sex that advocates ANYTHING other than missionary pounding away?

I mean, if we must go down this religious route, and I'm assuming that is what her hangup is, then can't you find a book that tells her that she is to obey her H and satisfy him sexually in diverse ways?

It might be manipulation, but what other choice is left?!

 

I wondered if it was just me that wondered about the religious side, but evidently it's crossed other peoples' minds too.

 

One other thing - a few times she kept saying "I bet my dad wouldn't ask my mum to do that" and "I know my dad wouldn't feel he has to do that". She reveres him like a living saint, which often merely adds to my woes:mad:. Other than using his superiority as a stick to beat me with is there more to this?

[You Go Girl]

One other thing - a few times she kept saying "I bet my dad wouldn't ask my mum to do that" and "I know my dad wouldn't feel he has to do that". She reveres him like a living saint, which often merely adds to my woes:mad:. Other than using his superiority as a stick to beat me with is there more to this?

 

There sure is, but don't look at her dad, or you'll be looking at the wrong person.

Look at her mother.

Betting heavily that she gets her sexual views from her mother.

Her dad was probably in your shoes.

Even if her mother isn't a strong religious practicing person, her grandmother might have been, and these rigid views on sexuality could have been passed down several generations.

It would be interesting to know what all the sexual discussions she has had through the years with her mother have been.

My mother bought me nightgowns buttoned to the chin, and turtlenecks. We (my sisters and I) used to tease my mother about how "covered up" her choices were for her daughters Christmas presents, as we'd all be opening up our oh so very modest nightgowns and turtlenecks at the same time.

It was quite an adjustment the first time I wore a dress with low cleavage. Just an example!

[Honorable_Venerable]

There sure is, but don't look at her dad, or you'll be looking at the wrong person.

Look at her mother.

Betting heavily that she gets her sexual views from her mother.

Oh. The opinionated old gobshoite who's never wrong (until the opposite is proved, then she agreed with you all along), who thinks jeans, a fleece and canadian walking sandals constiute a fashion statement? Oh clucking bell:lmao:

Her dad was probably in your shoes.

Even if her mother isn't a strong religious practicing person, her grandmother might have been, and these rigid views on sexuality could have been passed down several generations.

It would be interesting to know what all the sexual discussions she has had through the years with her mother have been.

I know this one! Assuming she's telling the truth, almost none - apart from dealing with the mechanics of periods, it wasn't a subject for discussion. Apparently men have their "you know what" which they put "you know where" - perhaps this is part of the problem. I'll keep this in my mind for tomorrow - perhaps nudge or push the therapist in this direction.

My mother bought me nightgowns buttoned to the chin, and turtlenecks. We (my sisters and I) used to tease my mother about how "covered up" her choices were for her daughters Christmas presents, as we'd all be opening up our oh so very modest nightgowns and turtlenecks at the same time.

It was quite an adjustment the first time I wore a dress with low cleavage. Just an example!

[Honorable_Venerable]

Oh. The opinionated old gobshoite who's never wrong (until the opposite is proved, then she agreed with you all along), who thinks jeans, a fleece and canadian walking sandals constiute a fashion statement? Oh clucking bell:lmao:

Even if her mother isn't a strong religious practicing person, her grandmother might have been, and these rigid views on sexuality could have been passed down several generations.

It would be interesting to know what all the sexual discussions she has had through the years with her mother have been

I know this one! Assuming she's telling the truth, almost none - apart from dealing with the mechanics of periods, it wasn't a subject for discussion. Apparently men have their "you know what" which they put "you know where" - perhaps this is part of the problem. I'll keep this in my mind for tomorrow - perhaps nudge or push the therapist in this direction.

My mother bought me nightgowns buttoned to the chin, and turtlenecks. We (my sisters and I) used to tease my mother about how "covered up" her choices were for her daughters Christmas presents, as we'd all be opening up our oh so very modest nightgowns and turtlenecks at the same time.

It was quite an adjustment the first time I wore a dress with low cleavage. Just an example!

So, you "got better" so to speak? There is hope!

[LittleTiger]

HV - I was having a discussion about your thread with my partner and he also brought up the religious angle. A while back he found an article somewhere (can't remember where) on sex advice for newly married English ladies in the 50s - we thought it was the funniest thing ever, though having read of your situation it no longer seems quite so funny and I have to sympathise with any men who faced a life of sex as described in the article. It basically said 'lie back and think of England', let your husband do as he wishes, make appropriate noises in the right places and grin and bear anything you find distasteful .

 

I decided to do an internet search on 'proper married sex', expecting to find one or two religious ideas about sex that maybe your wife has hooked on to. However, rather suprisingly I came across a site that I thought maybe you could share with your wife (if religion is part of the problem - or even if isn't!). I'm not religious and neither is my partner so we 'braced ourselves' as we read it for some ridiculous ideas. However, apart from some references to God and the bible etc which are easily ignored if you're not that way inclined, and one or two amusing lines including sex being 'paramount' in the husband's mind and coming to terms with questionable sexual practices - such as oral sex , it was actually quite an interesting read and a fairly sensible perspective on how to achieve a good and satisfying sex life. Here's the link if you're interested in having a look:

 

http://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/camp1.html

 

I'm sure you could find more articles like it you have a search yourself, and your therapist should definitely be helping to steer your wife towards reading more modern books on 'love making' or 'satisfying marital sex', with a religious tilt if necessary.

 

Looking on the positive side, your wife IS talking during the sessions and you do know that she's capable of enjoying and sharing great sex with you. If you and your therapist can somehow challenge her belief about sex, even to the point that she begins to question it just a little, maybe you can get back the sex life you used to have.

 

Good luck at your next session and keep us posted.

Edited September 24, 2010 by LittleTiger

[giotto]

Looking on the positive side, your wife IS talking during the sessions and you do know that she's capable of enjoying and sharing great sex with you. If you and your therapist can somehow challenge her belief about sex, even to the point that she begins to question it just a little, maybe you can get back the sex life you used to have.

 

well, it would be good to know where she got these beliefs from in the first place... and then they could be challenged... otherwise, it's a bit like shooting in the dark... (no pun intended... )