Revenge is sweet.......or is it?

[JustJoe]

Again, two wrongs don't make it right.

 

Just because the other person showed poor judgement/etc... first, it's still never an excuse for you to engage in that same behavior.

 

It's not about "owing". It's about what YOU choose, rather than what you owe the other person.

 

I don't think I can add much more to this conversation. Pretty much said all I can say.

Again, OWL, Biblically speaking, two wrongs can make a right, when the second "wrong", is done as retribution for the original "wrong".

[JustJoe]

Morals aside then, I still think a revenge affair is a horrible idea for BS.

Having been in those shoes I completely understand what the motivation might be. Revenge, sure but more than that its probably an attempt to get some validation, to feel attractive, recoup some self esteem or even to try to get some understanding of what your WS got out of it.

 

But it doesnt work that way. What happens is that afterward you feel cheap and desperate. Like you stooped too low. Having almost done it myself...I felt as though it was just another blow to myself. It made me feel even worse about myself, personally. Who needs that at such a time?

 

And...since the affair is had for revenge or out of insecurity - the results will be unsatisfying and will only hightlight to a BS that their WS tossed them aside for not much more than a cheap thrill or an ego feed.

 

Plus, having an affair yourself kind of takes away the righteous indignity that sometimes carries you through parts of the crisis.

 

Nope, a bad idea.

This post is more about what I'm trying to get at. Since I started this thread, I continue to get Cliches and moral platitudes. "Two wrongs don't make a right", " you will be descending to their (WS) level", and others, but few can say WHY this is true. I think a lot of it is moral smugness. A sense of superiority. Morals are subjective, and I'm looking for a more objective reason WHY revenge sex would be "wrong", or is it something like "it's wrong because it's wrong", or "it's wrong because I say it's wrong"? Edited September 14, 2010 by JustJoe

[redtail]

Morals aside then, I still think a revenge affair is a horrible idea for BS.

Having been in those shoes I completely understand what the motivation might be. Revenge, sure but more than that its probably an attempt to get some validation, to feel attractive, recoup some self esteem or even to try to get some understanding of what your WS got out of it.

 

But it doesnt work that way. What happens is that afterward you feel cheap and desperate. Like you stooped too low. Having almost done it myself...I felt as though it was just another blow to myself. It made me feel even worse about myself, personally. Who needs that at such a time?

 

And...since the affair is had for revenge or out of insecurity - the results will be unsatisfying and will only hightlight to a BS that their WS tossed them aside for not much more than a cheap thrill or an ego feed.

 

Plus, having an affair yourself kind of takes away the righteous indignity that sometimes carries you through parts of the crisis.

 

Nope, a bad idea.

 

Wow, this is an excellent summary! The bad feelings of having been cheated on compounded by a revenge affair is a good point. But I never thought about the "righteous indignity" you mention, but that could be why a BS is not necessarily just taking the moral high ground.

[redtail]

Again, OWL, Biblically speaking, two wrongs can make a right...

 

Someone smarter than me once said: "Two wrongs don't make a right, it usually takes three or more."

 

Talking about turning "wrongs" into "rights" and how many it would take is a silly argument at best.

 

IMHO...

[Owl]

Again, OWL, Biblically speaking, two wrongs can make a right, when the second "wrong", is done as retribution for the original "wrong".

 

OK, I've really been fighting to avoid doing the religous/biblical thing here.

 

But you're wrong.

 

Where does the Bible approve violating the 10 commandments to get revenge?

 

Doesn't the Bible also say NOT to seek revenge? ("Revenge is mine, sayeth the Lord")?

 

Respectfully, I think you're intentionally looking at the scriptures in a slanted way to validate your viewpoint.

 

You have to take the WHOLE context of the versus you're applying...not just the parts that suit your view.

 

You've got a choice here. You can either focus on this from a moral/Biblical viewpoint, or from the practical.

 

If you want to say it's wrong or right because of morals or religious views, thats one thing.

 

I believe that it's morally wrong to engage in adultery. The Bible clearly spells it out as the only valid reason for divorce, clearly spells it out as a sin, and makes no bones about it being wrong in any circumstances.

 

Practically there are a ton of reasons why a revenge affair is a bad choice too. It hurts chances of reconciliation if you have that as a possible goal. It does nothing to help your self-esteem/self-worth once you've done it (See Spark's post)...on the contrary, you've now done the very thing you've condemned.

[JustJoe]

Someone smarter than me once said: "Two wrongs don't make a right, it usually takes three or more."

 

Talking about turning "wrongs" into "rights" and how many it would take is a silly argument at best.

 

IMHO...

I think this may be one of the problems. "Sombody smarter than me says," "the Bible says", "my mom (dad) says ". I think we need to think for ourselves. For good , bad, or indifferent, the WS "thought outside the box", the box being the wedding vows. Perhaps the BS should be willing to do the same? Maybe WS'S would be less likely to have repeat affairs, if they realized that they would be paid in the same coin? ? The deterrent factor.

[Owl]

JJ...I once said "You can't make someone see something if they refuse to open their eyes.".

 

That's where this thread is at. This is one of those things that just can't be agreed upon by everyone.

 

I'm out.

[JustJoe]

Owl, I use Biblical references to examine this issue, and I think I've shown the subjective nature of these "moral imperatives". The Moral high ground is built on faith and customary practices, not on factual evidence. The practical/factual reasons for having or not having a revenge affair is more like what I am interested in. Too bad there aren't enough statistics about this issue, to form any judgement.

[JustJoe]

Owl, I really don't seek agreement. I was interested in what posters would do , when faced by this issue. I want to know what YOU ( plural)think, not what the Bible says , not conventional wisdom, not customary practices, but WHY, in practical terms, you (plural) would or would not have revenge sex.

[redtail]

...

Too bad there aren't enough statistics about this issue, to form any judgement.

 

Joe I can see this is something you feel strongly about. The responses you are getting don't seem to be getting at what you want or need to hear it seems. In relationships, there is no "one size fits all" answer, so for you, a reverenge affair just may be the best course of action. The people here just provided their experience and what worked for them, me included. Their decisions may not satisfy you in the way it did for them. However, as always, you may choose your actions, you can not choose the consequenses, that's a known.

[Snowflower]

Owl, I really don't seek agreement. I was interested in what posters would do , when faced by this issue. I want to know what YOU ( plural)think, not what the Bible says , not conventional wisdom, not customary practices, but WHY, in practical terms, you (plural) would or would not have revenge sex.

 

I think most posters here attempted to answer your questions. Some posters did fall back to conventional wisdom as explanation for why they would or would not have revenge sex. But if conventional wisdom or platitudes are the reasons why they did not seek revenge then that is their answer. Using biblical reasons or platitudes might be just the reason why some chose their path.

 

Some offered other reasons why they would not participate...such as realizing an RA would hurt themselves most or they wanted to reconcile their marriages or they wanted to remain true to their own principles. These are also valid reasons, IMO.

 

I guess I no longer understand what you are looking for in this thread.

[eeyore1981]

I think this may be one of the problems. "Sombody smarter than me says," "the Bible says", "my mom (dad) says ". I think we need to think for ourselves. For good , bad, or indifferent, the WS "thought outside the box", the box being the wedding vows. Perhaps the BS should be willing to do the same? Maybe WS'S would be less likely to have repeat affairs, if they realized that they would be paid in the same coin? ? The deterrent factor.

 

IMO, this is an individual choice, and there is really no right or wrong answer.

 

I think when someone has been cheated on, their main, number one focus should be on themselves, and what needs to take place for them to get in the best place they can be in. For some, this means leaving the relationship, for others, it means trying to work it out. To RA or not to RA. But for this to work, the BS needs to be completely honest with themselves, and understand the potential consequences.

 

If you cheat back, even if you stayed with your cheater, doesn't mean your cheater will stay with you. Are you truly okay with that?

 

Your cheater is not guaranteed to see the RA as 'tit for tat'. Remember, they cheated on you in the first place, so they may choose to cheat on you again, because you cheated on them.

 

What are you, personally, going to gain by an RA vs. what you may potentially lose? Is it worth it?

 

Are you prepared for the fallout of an RA? ONS vs. full out affair, both can still result in STDs, pregnancies, emotional attachments, etc.

 

What is worst possible scenario if you get caught?

 

I can hear you now, saying, "The person who cheated on me didn't consider all this, why should I?" Well, look at where the cheater is now. A revenge affair is not about them, it is about you, and what is best for you, and the more informed your decisions are, the more likely you are to have a better outcome. If the most important thing for you is to get payback in order for you to heal and have the best possible life you can have, then an RA is probably for you. It's been 4 years since Dday for me, and while I haven't cheated back, I came pretty close, and I can't honestly say it is completely off the table for me, or if it ever will be. I know I'm not going to cheat today, though. ;-)

[JustJoe]

Actually, Redtail , the only thing I feel strongly about, is that posters tell me their OWN feelings and experiences. But most of what I'm getting is reasoning based on moral grounds or conventional "wisdom". I mean, why think for yourself, when somebody else will do your thinking for you, right?

[JustJoe]

IMO, this is an individual choice, and there is really no right or wrong answer.

 

I think when someone has been cheated on, their main, number one focus should be on themselves, and what needs to take place for them to get in the best place they can be in. For some, this means leaving the relationship, for others, it means trying to work it out. To RA or not to RA. But for this to work, the BS needs to be completely honest with themselves, and understand the potential consequences.

 

If you cheat back, even if you stayed with your cheater, doesn't mean your cheater will stay with you. Are you truly okay with that?

 

Your cheater is not guaranteed to see the RA as 'tit for tat'. Remember, they cheated on you in the first place, so they may choose to cheat on you again, because you cheated on them.

 

What are you, personally, going to gain by an RA vs. what you may potentially lose? Is it worth it?

 

Are you prepared for the fallout of an RA? ONS vs. full out affair, both can still result in STDs, pregnancies, emotional attachments, etc.

 

What is worst possible scenario if you get caught?

 

I can hear you now, saying, "The person who cheated on me didn't consider all this, why should I?" Well, look at where the cheater is now. A revenge affair is not about them, it is about you, and what is best for you, and the more informed your decisions are, the more likely you are to have a better outcome. If the most important thing for you is to get payback in order for you to heal and have the best possible life you can have, then an RA is probably for you. It's been 4 years since Dday for me, and while I haven't cheated back, I came pretty close, and I can't honestly say it is completely off the table for me, or if it ever will be. I know I'm not going to cheat today, though. ;-)

I like this a lot. The choice of revenge sex is as individual as the original affair was. There is no hard and fast rule, moral or otherwise. It's the personal experiences of the posters that I'm interested in.

[redtail]

Actually, Redtail , the only thing I feel strongly about, is that posters tell me their OWN feelings and experiences. But most of what I'm getting is reasoning based on moral grounds or conventional "wisdom". I mean, why think for yourself, when somebody else will do your thinking for you, right?

 

Fair enough, but because I may have agreed with others of like opinions, doesn't mean that my decision wasn't my own nor thought out.

[JustJoe]

I'm sure that you and some others did, Redtail. On the other hand, some just spout cliches, as if some kind of Mantra.

[Owl]

JJ, in every response you've had to my posts, you've come back with "the Bible says", or "Biblically speaking"...

 

In each of those instances, you've attempted to use the Bible to support the notion of a revenge affair. You've not been pushing people for their own reasoning. You've attempted to use scripture to support your viewpoint, even rather than providing your own thought out process.

 

Your stance has not been about getting other people's "thought out perspectives" in this thread.

 

Seriously, go back and re-read your posts, and relook specifically at the ones you and I have exchanged. I'm not picking a fight with you, my friend. But what you say your goal was doesn't match what you've posted as responses, at least the ones directed at me.

[Minnie09]

The practical/factual reasons for having or not having a revenge affair is more like what I am interested in. Too bad there aren't enough statistics about this issue, to form any judgement.

 

No moral concerns after I found out that I was BS. I would've had an RA in a heartbeat, but my self esteem was at its lowest point and I think it showed. Nobody finds a depressed-looking BS attractive, and I really was not too outgoing either at that time in my life. I was always hiding at home. That's my practical explanation on why I didn't do it. Had nothing to do with taking the high road or wanting to be the better person.

The M was over anyway, so there was no option for a reconciliation. I didn't even want to discuss it. So nothing was standing in my way that kept me from shagging the next guy. Except for my depressed self. I think it would have made me feel a little bit better. I just had no energy in me.

And also, being an SAHM with no human interaction other than teachers (female), kids and other moms really doesn't provide you with an opportunity to cheat.

 

I love 2.5's story. His RA really served its purpose.

[spriggig]

I like this a lot. The choice of revenge sex is as individual as the original affair was. There is no hard and fast rule, moral or otherwise. It's the personal experiences of the posters that I'm interested in.

 

Is there something wrong with an appeal to morals for guidance here?

 

There is evidence that morals are not strictly a higher level human construct, but actually based in evolutionary adaptation:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/09/magazine/09babies-t.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

 

I guess it could be argued that ultimately, society defines right and wrong, but please then show me a stable society that condones murder outside of war.

 

By rejecting moral arguments, Just Joe seems to be implying that there is no right or wrong aside from what society has imposed. Some here point to religion or God as the ultimate arbitrator of morals. I think it can effectively argued that there is an evolutionary advantage to us "all just getting along". Also, we've actively selected against antisocial behavior for many centuries by imprisoning those among us who are more violent--effectively reducing their ability to reproduce.

 

In the case of revenge cheating, there is probably an advantage to abstaining from revenge in general (dig two graves) and therefore revenge cheating "feels wrong" by extension.

 

So, morals can be the "real" reason that people choose not to engage in revenge affairs.

[DitkasMoustache]

I'm not prepared to judge anyone who chooses to have a RA. For me, though, I know it's the wrong answer.

 

The advice from friends often falls along the lines of "the easiest way to get over someone is to get under someone", and as a dude it seems like the only appropriate masculine response from some circles is to conquer as much strange as I can. But I can't. It's a moral, spiritual and emotional choice. I've busted my ass to get over the hurt and anger of my W's EA, leaving me now mostly with just the sadness of seeing our marriage deteriorate. I can't imagine that my having an RA would do anything other than stoke to hurt and anger... and that's a road I refuse to travel again.

[Fight4Me]

Removing the sexual aspect for the sake of argument, I can't help but think of some people's propensity for revenge to be reminiscent of my kids when one shouts, "...but she started it!"

 

Maybe that means the need to get back at someone when you've been wronged is an innate inclination rooted in humanity in general. The choice to act on those natural impulses change and evolve based on many variables, I'm sure. One might be parental influences, and another might be outside influences encouraging our internal desire to even the score.

 

One thing I can say with certainty is that once you commit Revenge Sex, you've lost your right to be angry and hurt over the initial betrayal. It would be juvenile to think otherwise.

[bentnotbroken]

Removing the sexual aspect for the sake of argument, I can't help but think of some people's propensity for revenge to be reminiscent of my kids when one shouts, "...but she started it!"

 

Maybe that means the need to get back at someone when you've been wronged is an innate inclination rooted in humanity in general. The choice to act on those natural impulses change and evolve based on many variables, I'm sure. One might be parental influences, and another might be outside influences encouraging our internal desire to even the score.

 

One thing I can say with certainty is that once you commit Revenge Sex, you've lost your right to be angry and hurt over the initial betrayal. It would be juvenile to think otherwise.

 

 

This is so true. Why should I behave in a way that is juvenile at best and completely asinine at worst. I don't gain my validation by some outside act or source. My self esteem is my responsibility to build in a way that is strong and responsible. I don't want to ever look myself in the mirror again and not like what I see. If Mr. Messy disgusted me by cheating, why wouldn't I disgust myself.

 

If I am going to use the rationale of "they did it first" then I can apply that to all situations(and people) that take a swing at my self esteem. Why not show my children how to be a world class racist because the man down the street called me a N****R b**ch? How about I show my children how to whip their teachers arse because she said they couldn't achieve the goals they had set for themselves(she got fired by the way:p)? How about I catch the kid of that cop and rough him up because the cop roughed up my kid?

 

No one else's behavior should dictate how I live my life, conduct my actions or follow the laws of God. I am going to fail at doing the right thing at all times. I will chose to do the wrong thing sometimes. I will also remember the devastation of watching my children cry. I will remember the feeling of despair and feeling lost. I will also remember the blind rage. And I never want anyone to have to feel those things after a d-day that never should have existed...especially not at my hands.

[ladydesigner]

Removing the sexual aspect for the sake of argument, I can't help but think of some people's propensity for revenge to be reminiscent of my kids when one shouts, "...but she started it!"

 

Maybe that means the need to get back at someone when you've been wronged is an innate inclination rooted in humanity in general. The choice to act on those natural impulses change and evolve based on many variables, I'm sure. One might be parental influences, and another might be outside influences encouraging our internal desire to even the score.

 

One thing I can say with certainty is that once you commit Revenge Sex, you've lost your right to be angry and hurt over the initial betrayal. It would be juvenile to think otherwise.

 

This is so true and I am no longer hurt by my H's betrayal. It's almost a wash in my eyes and now it is either time to pick up the pieces and move forward or call it quits. I chose to move forward and we actually seem to be getting along better and communicating more than we ever have. If there were to be another A committed by H in the future well I am going to call it quits. I know that I will never have an A again. Definitely a very poor choice I made to have a RA.

[JustJoe]

JJ, in every response you've had to my posts, you've come back with "the Bible says", or "Biblically speaking"...

 

In each of those instances, you've attempted to use the Bible to support the notion of a revenge affair. You've not been pushing people for their own reasoning. You've attempted to use scripture to support your viewpoint, even rather than providing your own thought out process.

 

Your stance has not been about getting other people's "thought out perspectives" in this thread.

 

Seriously, go back and re-read your posts, and relook specifically at the ones you and I have exchanged. I'm not picking a fight with you, my friend. But what you say your goal was doesn't match what you've posted as responses, at least the ones directed at me.

Owl, my use of the Bible was to illustrate the moral vs the practical reasons both for and against revenge sex. I believe that the Old Testament preaches retribution, while the New Testament preaches Absolution, so use the O.T. references to point out that revenge is not only acceptible but encouraged. I have also stated that I, myself am not sure if I would or would not have a revenge affair, not for silly religious reasons, but for the very practical reason that if I were cheated on, I would not consider myself bound by any vows made to the WS. I'm of two minds about it. On one hand, the idea of having sex with multiple partners and hurting her in the same way she hurt me is appealing , but if she is no longer a part of my life, why bother.

[JustJoe]

This has been a very interesting thread, and I'm grateful for all of the responses. THANKS EVERYBODY!!! Now for my reasons for starting it. The persons in my little story are or were very close friends of mine from my Army days, and Both have contacted me as a "sounding board", to explain their respective positions. As many of you know, I am a former OM, and so could give them little honest advice about their issues. One of the great things about LS is that if you don't know about a subject, you can start a thread and get lots of different opinions, and some you can use. It's also really cool that we could discus this question and not get pissed off at each other. You people are aces!!!!!:bunny::D