A woman's Orgasm - Who's responsibility is it....

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Little Tiger as she explains below, wanted to discuss this off line as we were starting to threadjack a topic. This also had others involved.

 

I know I have discussed this before but was not ready to to start up again, but others may be interested.

 

LittleTiger did post on the Sex Practices Forum, and I commented that it is probably best served back here, with more people viewing and more experience in longer relationships.

 

She has articulated the topic much better then I have in the past, so i have stolen it back (with her permission) to our little group here.....

 

 

 

I was about to get involved in a 'private' off-topic discussion on another thread about this and decided to get other people's viewpoints.

 

Here's what I think. Apologies for the length of the post.

 

As we all know, a woman's sexual response is very different from a man's and there's a reason for that. It goes back to biology and the survival of the species.

 

Men have a point of no return. Their arousal builds, in the vast majority of men fairly quickly, and once they reach that point, it doesn't matter what happens - even someone threatening to shoot them in the foot, they'll have an orgasm anyway. Under any kind of distraction or stress the feeling won't be as good but the ejaculation will still take place. For the sake of our species it has to happen like this or primitive man wouldn't have survived.

 

Arousal usually happens much faster than for women, for the same reason, and with much less signifcant triggers.

 

For women, this fast arousal/climax process isn't necessary. It isn't even clear why women actually need to orgasm. Scientists are still researching it. Obviously a woman needs to become aroused to allow comfortable penetration but theoretically, she doesn't need to enjoy the experience more than enough to make her want to do it again - for the survival of the species.

 

She also doesn't have a point of no return. She can be milliseconds from climax and then it's gone. She heard something, felt something, saw something, thought of something, something very minor changed in the stimulation even (not necessarily perceptible to the man - he thinks he's doing exactly the same thing as he was for the last ten minutes - or however long - because all women are dfferent).

 

There is a reason for this. The woman doesn't need to orgasm. She needs to be constantly thinking about the needs and welfare of her offspring. She needs to be constantly aware of her environment for her safety and theirs. So a lot of women find that their mind wanders - even if it's only for a second and that second can make all the difference to whether she orgasms or not. Obviously, the more stressed she is the more likely this is to happen. Along with all this are the changes in women's physiology and hormones, depending on whereabouts they are in their cycle. They're much more likely to get aroused at certain times and therefore reach orgasm faster - so there's less time for other stuff to enter their head.

 

What I think tends to happen in relationships is that a lot of men (often younger, less experienced men) turn their women on only as much as is required for sex to take place and then expect them to orgasm as easily as they do. Obviously this doesn't happen. The more mature man, who wants to please his partner, will learn what she enjoys and pleasure her until she reaches orgasm (however long that takes!).

 

The best lovers take pleasure in giving pleasure and, as unfair as it may seem, it is more important that the man takes pleasure in pleasing the woman than the other way around (we're talking solely about reaching orgasm here). He will probably get turned on just looking at her but for her it's far more complicated. It isn't even always possible for a woman to orgasm. Some women might say otherwise and, lucky them, but most women I know don't orgasm every single time - no matter their man does.

 

So a woman's orgasm is therefore her responsibility. Sure, she needs the man's help and cooperation (unless she's on a solo flight) but for a woman it's generally about keeping her mind on the job and sometimes other things are just more important than sex - at least for her.

 

Any opinions?

 

I still ascertain, while it is my spouses orgasms, which she controls it is my obligation to do everything I can to get her there, which as I have stated starts with 168 hours of foreplay and hopefully ends with me not shooting myself in the foot and fulfilling my end of the bargain.

[Feelin Frisky]

The bolded part sounds like someone trying to cope with frigidity. These gross generalities about men and women are just that--generalities. I have been with women who know their bodies and cum at will by working themselves into the zone while I'm in there. I've also been with a few that never came before, didn't know what "clit" meant and obviously hadn't a clue what's what and whose job is whoms. What's the problem? Sexual repression--denial and purposeful ignorance of sexual dynamics. Are many women unwitting products of sexually repressed family values that try to rationalize how or why they should expect no climax or that sexual fulfillment is wrong and for men? Duh, yeah. How does one change that? Duh, I can't.

[LittleTiger]

The bolded part is my entire post and there's nothing frigid or sexually repressed about me - I am very in tune with my body and I have no trouble reaching orgasm.

 

Some of what I posted is my understanding of biology and evolution, the rest is based on conversations with other women.

 

Of course it's a generalisation, every woman and man is different, every couple and every interaction between that couple is different.

 

Some men clearly do believe that the woman's pleasure, and ultimately orgasm is their responsibility, others, such as yourself Feelin Frisky, take no responsibility whatsoever.

 

Since I wrote this post, I've actually shifted my opinion a little. I think both partners are responsible for ensuring each other's sexual satisfaction as well as their own, whether that needs to include an orgasm or not.

[Feelin Frisky]

The bolded part is my entire post and there's nothing frigid or sexually repressed about me - I am very in tune with my body and I have no trouble reaching orgasm.

 

Some of what I posted is my understanding of biology and evolution, the rest is based on conversations with other women.

 

Of course it's a generalisation, every woman and man is different, every couple and every interaction between that couple is different.

 

Some men clearly do believe that the woman's pleasure, and ultimately orgasm is their responsibility, others, such as yourself Feelin Frisky, take no responsibility whatsoever.

 

Since I wrote this post, I've actually shifted my opinion a little. I think both partners are responsible for ensuring each other's sexual satisfaction as well as their own, whether that needs to include an orgasm or not.

 

That's quite a conclusion to say I take no responsibility. I don't know what qualifies you to assume that. I didn't say the bolded commentary made YOU sound frigid--I didn't even know your gender and from other posts I thought you were a guy.

 

The above sounds like typical musings of someone trying to rationalize why women don't achieve orgasm. I don't think the case was sound, I have had experience that tells me otherwise which I expressed, I have extended myself to find out what's at issue beside the cat made a noise and my response centered on the pre-eminence of sexual repression, denial, neglect in social systems like family life which tend to give women unfortunate sexual grounding at times.

 

If you had the slightest clue who I am, you wouldn't think I take no responsibility. I've taken the responsibility apparently you haven't to get real with the actual facts and be sensitive to the real dynamics rather than espousing some colored rationale that what "I" think is the way it all goes and no one should say otherwise. I care. And that's why I spoke up. You got defensive and made it confrontational rather than asking me what I meant or why. Happy with your choice?

[mem11363]

In the theoretical world where each of us is fully responsible for our own pleasure we are simply masturbating using each others bodies as a "prop". Yuck.

 

My best experiences have always been when it is obvious I am mostly/entirely focused on pleasing my partner and they are mostly/entirely focused on pleasing me. THAT is a great feeling. I love giving. And I love being "given too". I don't so much like "taking" if that makes any sense.

 

 

The bolded part is my entire post and there's nothing frigid or sexually repressed about me - I am very in tune with my body and I have no trouble reaching orgasm.

 

Some of what I posted is my understanding of biology and evolution, the rest is based on conversations with other women.

 

Of course it's a generalisation, every woman and man is different, every couple and every interaction between that couple is different.

 

Some men clearly do believe that the woman's pleasure, and ultimately orgasm is their responsibility, others, such as yourself Feelin Frisky, take no responsibility whatsoever.

 

Since I wrote this post, I've actually shifted my opinion a little. I think both partners are responsible for ensuring each other's sexual satisfaction as well as their own, whether that needs to include an orgasm or not.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

But Feeling Frisky you are completely out of it.... You responded on the other thread, are seldom in this forum (not trying to build fiefdoms), and you do come across in the posts I have read and your picture as somewhat an arrogant cocksman, pretty sure of yourself and with a laissez-faire attitude centered mainly around yourself and ticking another notch on your bedpost.... Good for you.....

 

It was at my insistence that the thread come here as I wanted to see more discussion and do apologize that I am somewhat daft in being pretty easy to please and concerned almost entirely about my spouses enjoyment.

 

Now you are welcome to discuss that, hurl insults or gaffaws, but your post and comments to littletiger was uncalled for.....

[InceptorsRule]

In my house, I am responsible for paying for the mortgage, health insurance, car repairs, groceries, and everything else.

 

She is responsible for both our orgasms.

[LittleTiger]

That's quite a conclusion to say I take no responsibility. I don't know what qualifies you to assume that. I didn't say the bolded commentary made YOU sound frigid--I didn't even know your gender and from other posts I thought you were a guy.

 

The above sounds like typical musings of someone trying to rationalize why women don't achieve orgasm. I don't think the case was sound, I have had experience that tells me otherwise which I expressed, I have extended myself to find out what's at issue beside the cat made a noise and my response centered on the pre-eminence of sexual repression, denial, neglect in social systems like family life which tend to give women unfortunate sexual grounding at times.

 

If you had the slightest clue who I am, you wouldn't think I take no responsibility. I've taken the responsibility apparently you haven't to get real with the actual facts and be sensitive to the real dynamics rather than espousing some colored rationale that what "I" think is the way it all goes and no one should say otherwise. I care. And that's why I spoke up. You got defensive and made it confrontational rather than asking me what I meant or why. Happy with your choice?

 

Thanks for your support TDP - I can take it though (don't call myself LittleTiger for nothing )

 

Wasn't my intention to be confrontational Feelin Frisky.

 

I thought on the sex forum that you said it was entirely the woman's responsibility, and that was the impression you gave me here also - my apologies if I was wrong. I certainly had no intention of offending you. I don't even know if you're married or in a LTR or what?

 

Until I started this thread I actually thought the man had no responsibility at all but the discussion has changed my mind, especially what TDP has said. I'm very open to other people's opinions and happy to be persuaded I'm wrong and I don't think I'm espousing anything, the post was just to start a discussion.

 

I'm not sure why but I almost find it a compliment that you thought I was male. However, TDP's introduction did make it clear I was female.

[carhill]

If I'm in a voluntary and loving relationship with a woman, I want to share my love with her in a way which causes her to feel attractive, loved, cared for and secure. Sex is one expression of that love. Within that dynamic, she's responsible for the switch in her brain which flushes the blood out of her genital region and, thusly, communicating her needs, desires, and preferences in that regard to me, as I am not a mind-reader and certainly not a woman. This dynamic is called 'intimacy'.

[denise_xo]

But Feeling Frisky you are completely out of it.... You responded on the other thread, are seldom in this forum (not trying to build fiefdoms), and you do come across in the posts I have read and your picture as somewhat an arrogant cocksman, pretty sure of yourself and with a laissez-faire attitude centered mainly around yourself and ticking another notch on your bedpost.... Good for you.....

 

It was at my insistence that the thread come here as I wanted to see more discussion and do apologize that I am somewhat daft in being pretty easy to please and concerned almost entirely about my spouses enjoyment.

 

Now you are welcome to discuss that, hurl insults or gaffaws, but your post and comments to littletiger was uncalled for.....

 

Well, at the risk of being chivalrous, then my interpretation having read mosts of Frisky's posts is that he has a healthy confidence, approaches life with hard earned wisdom, is warm and inclusive, and looks bloody hot in that avatar and anyone who's really read all his posts couldn't conclude that he 'takes no responsibility'.

 

May I add that such negative personality characterisations are uncalled for??

[denise_xo]

...and by the way I'm responsible for my own orgasm

[LittleTiger]

If I'm in a voluntary and loving relationship with a woman, I want to share my love with her in a way which causes her to feel attractive, loved, cared for and secure. Sex is one expression of that love. Within that dynamic, she's responsible for the switch in her brain which flushes the blood out of her genital region and, thusly, communicating her needs, desires, and preferences in that regard to me, as I am not a mind-reader and certainly not a woman. This dynamic is called 'intimacy'.

 

You sound like my kind of man carhill

[You Go Girl]

I watched a rather interesting tv program on a woman's orgasm, I don't remember if it was TLC or THC or what channel it was...nevetheless it was a factual study.

What was most interesting was this--when a woman orgasms, her cervix dips down. This program believed that if a woman was on her back, and had sperm pooling there in her vagina, the cervix would essentially be 'dipping itself' into the sperm, thereby making the chances greater that the sperm would pass through the cervix into the womb.

Now what is most interesting about that theory is that the man would have to orgasm first, and the woman second, for that to transpire.

Or..she would have to be with several partners, or several acts of sex within the same day, for this method to be successful. Or...there's one more possibility, which is that after sex with her mate, she orgasms by masturbation or some other method.

The methodology doesn't work unless the woman is flat on her back.

 

Anyway! Original question-both partners should be present in the moment and working toward the best sex possible between them, and that naturally means pleasing their partner and at the right moment, being just selfish enough to reach their own climax. So going for their pleasure--meaning both of them, would be the only type of man I would be interested in. A mutual pleasure as much as possible.

Now I have known men that when I grabbed their hips when I was ready and moved their speed to my pleasure, have looked at me funny. They don't like a woman to take control. I suppose I could have just started yelling faster, no not that fast, wait, that was almost perfect but not quite, a tad bit slower, wait, hold it there, you almost got it...yada yada.

So I'm not too fond of men that take it as a personal hit to their machismo if the woman controls speed and other factors for a few minutes in order to get what she's after. Working through this was difficult, as I remember the same man didn't ever like a woman on top.

[You Go Girl]

Well, at the risk of being chivalrous, then my interpretation having read mosts of Frisky's posts is that he has a healthy confidence, approaches life with hard earned wisdom, is warm and inclusive, and looks bloody hot in that avatar and anyone who's really read all his posts couldn't conclude that he 'takes no responsibility'.

 

May I add that such negative personality characterisations are uncalled for??

 

I think I've read a few posts of the mentioned person that seemed a little off the cuff...this is not a personal attack, but an observation.

[denise_xo]

I think I've read a few posts of the mentioned person that seemed a little off the cuff...this is not a personal attack, but an observation.

 

Whatever - the basic point really is that "Personal dislike of another member has no place in any post, on any thread" - forum guidelines. tdp was way out of line.

[carhill]

What was most interesting was this--when a woman orgasms, her cervix dips down. This program believed that if a woman was on her back, and had sperm pooling there in her vagina, the cervix would essentially be 'dipping itself' into the sperm, thereby making the chances greater that the sperm would pass through the cervix into the womb.

Now what is most interesting about that theory is that the man would have to orgasm first, and the woman second, for that to transpire.

 

We tried this when having fertility issues, and I would often perform cunnilingus after orgasming when stbx needed 'help' reaching orgasm herself. No fertility success resulted, but I doubt it was the technique which was responsible for that result. Perhaps my help for the little swimmers will work with someone else

[mem11363]

I have been trying to work up the nerve to ask Carhill if he is willing to be cryogenically frozen long enough for my 19 year old daughter to be old enough for him. Then they can make a bunch of little Carhill-lets and greatly improve the gene pool in their neighborhood.

 

I realize he may have an aversion to being frozen given that the defrosting technology has not yet been developed. Being that this cryogenic path is rather risky - he should embark on a "plan B" which is to make frequent donations to the local sperm banks. Either way he really does need to step up and contribute to the gene pool.

 

 

You sound like my kind of man carhill

[LittleTiger]

Well, at the risk of being chivalrous, then my interpretation having read mosts of Frisky's posts is that he has a healthy confidence, approaches life with hard earned wisdom, is warm and inclusive, and looks bloody hot in that avatar and anyone who's really read all his posts couldn't conclude that he 'takes no responsibility'.

 

May I add that such negative personality characterisations are uncalled for??

 

I haven't read all Feelin Frisky's posts, my opinion was based on just two of them written in reply to this thread.....and it wasn't meant as an insult, just an observation.

 

The fact that some people are upset by the suggestion the woman's orgasm is 'entirely her responsibility' suggests that the consensus is it's the responsiblity of both the man and the woman.

 

Which is, of course, an entirely valid viewpoint.

 

I myself started off believing my orgasm was solely my responsibility. Now I've been persuaded otherwise.

 

I stand by my belief that women have a lot of stuff going through their heads that can interfere with the orgasm process and that this generally doesn't get in the way of a man's orgasm. However, if a man understands his partners needs, enjoys pleasing her and is prepared to spend whatever time it takes, whether that's twenty minutes, 3 hrs or 168 hrs, and, provided the level of emotional intimacy is deep enough, he should, in theory, be able to 'switch off' her cognitive brain long enough for her to focus on the sexual sensations and achieve orgasm.

 

Going back to FF's theory that some women are just too repressed to reach this level of 'letting go' (if I've understood that correctly?), then whatever the man does he's not going to help her achieve this. In that instance, sorting out her issues (assuming it has nothing to do with that particular man or their relationship) is up to the woman.

 

I also still believe that most men find it easier to orgasm than most women do, and any man who thinks all the women he's been with have orgasmed every time is the victim of the dreaded 'fake'. Sad to say that most women have faked at least once in their lifetime, especially when they're younger. Shoot me down on this if you want to, I could be wrong, but just about every one of my women friends has faked it at some time. Of course, the more intimate the relationship (intimate in carhill's terms), the less likely this is to happen. Blanket statement again maybe? Just my opinion.

[LittleTiger]

I have been trying to work up the nerve to ask Carhill if he is willing to be cryogenically frozen long enough for my 19 year old daughter to be old enough for him. Then they can make a bunch of little Carhill-lets and greatly improve the gene pool in their neighborhood.

 

I realize he may have an aversion to being frozen given that the defrosting technology has not yet been developed. Being that this cryogenic path is rather risky - he should embark on a "plan B" which is to make frequent donations to the local sperm banks. Either way he really does need to step up and contribute to the gene pool.

 

I'll second that!

[LittleTiger]

...and by the way I'm responsible for my own orgasm

 

Are you accepting sole responsibility for your own orgasm denise_xo?

 

Genuine question (no sarcasm intended)

[LittleTiger]

In my house, I am responsible for paying for the mortgage, health insurance, car repairs, groceries, and everything else.

 

She is responsible for both our orgasms.

 

Care to elaborate on this InceptorsRule?

 

I have some visuals here that I'm sure are way off the mark!

[You Go Girl]

We tried this when having fertility issues, and I would often perform cunnilingus after orgasming when stbx needed 'help' reaching orgasm herself. No fertility success resulted, but I doubt it was the technique which was responsible for that result. Perhaps my help for the little swimmers will work with someone else

 

haha...had to laugh at you doubt it was the technique...hahaha!

 

Really? Kids in your future at your ripe old age?

[xxoo]

When I say that I take responsibility for my own orgasm, I mean--just like men.

 

Think about it. If a man and woman are together, and the woman is giving oral to the man (he doesn't reach climax), and then she gets on top and rides him until she climaxes...but he isn't reaching climax from these efforts, what would he do? He'd change up the positions until he was in a position to achieve orgasm. He'd actively achieve his own orgasm through controlling the position, pace, angle, etc.

 

It still means the woman is fully present, willing, and enthusiastic to provide any pleasure she can. But ultimately, the man will naturally take an active role seeking his own orgasm if her active efforts are not doing the job that session. He won't passively expect her to manage it on her own through her technique, or go without.

 

I believe it is a woman's responsibility to do the same. Expecting to be passively pleasured is unfair to both partners, imo. Too much pressure on the partner, and too much limitation on the woman. A woman who knows how to actively achieve orgasm has more options, more power, and, ultimately, more pleasure in the long run.

[You Go Girl]

Something to consider how much easier it is for the man to orgasm--direct stimulation with his pleasure nerves is never-ending during penetration. Women have indirect stimulation through pulling on the tissue surrounding the pleasure button, and then direct stimulation everytime the man hits it with his skin. It just makes sense that it takes us a little longer to get over the top, doesn't it?

Then there's that elusive g-spot....

[denise_xo]

I haven't read all Feelin Frisky's posts, my opinion was based on just two of them written in reply to this thread.....and it wasn't meant as an insult, just an observation.

 

.

 

Hi TP, just to clarify - the bit you quoted me on was a response to TDP, not you.

 

Are you accepting sole responsibility for your own orgasm denise_xo?

 

Genuine question (no sarcasm intended)

 

Well, if you see my thread in the sexual health section, you will see that I am trying :

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t238196/

 

I think part of the potential confusion here is what lies in 'responsibility'. The way in which I do accept responsibility for it is very similar to what Frisky has talked about elsewhere - about having to know your own body, how you get 'there', what turns you on, and communicating that clearly to your partner. My partner can have a general idea about what turns me on, but he might be wrong and he can't 'sense' what's happening in my body so ultimately that's on me. To me, that doesn't translate as in 'I'll just use the man as a replacement for a dildo'. It's his responsibility to take my cues, and vice versa.