An ironic twist?

[DrIndigo]

It's not often I feel so conflicted and unable to talk to anyone that I find myself posting on a public forum. For years, I've popped into loveshack periodically and perused the Infidelity and OW forums. I'd secretly been hoping to recognize my situation, looking for some little detail in one of the stories that might give me some insight into what the two other people in my relationship are thinking/feeling. Recently I got a glimpse into just that and now I'm more confused than ever.

 

Here's a little background...I am dating a separated man. We were together before he separated, and we've been together, in one capacity or another, for years at this point. When he was still MM, I thought our situation was different, he was different, I was different...we'd be different. I was just like every other OW out there I guess, feeling all smug and superior to the people whose MM were playing them and to the BS who couldn't see through their partner's eyes. Well, karma has come along and kicked me in the head.

 

My boyfriend has been dragging his feet about filing for and securing the divorce. He says it's because he doesn't want to hurt her more than he already has, wants to give her time to adjust, etc. I've been patient and kind. I feel badly for his W. And for him. He's living apart from her, available to me, and things between us have been great. Recently, though, I began to get really upset about the lack of progress and the fact that he continues to do things that upset me, like appearing at an event with her as though they're a couple. I understand that separating/divorcing takes some adjustment, even for him though he has another relationship. But it's become very clear to me lately that either he's really misleading me about his intentions (i.e. to divorce her as nicely as possible) or he's giving her false hope in an effort to make her less upset with him. There's a lot more contact than he led me to believe, and his contributions to it are much more substantial than I thought. I did not get any indication that he's having sex with her. But he's lied to me. As kind and non-judgmental as I've been whenever he's told me something I wouldn't like, he lied to me.

 

In spite of the offense I took on his behalf to his wife checking up on him after she found out about our A (several years ago and before the separation), I find myself wanting to do the same thing. In spite of all the times I said I couldn't understand how a BS could even want to stay with the person who didn't respect them enough to give them the truth, I find myself looking for an excuse to believe his apologies and a way to forgive his lies. I feel devastated and suspicious, and I keep looking for a way to verify that what he tells me now is true. I've tried reasoning my way through it all, but that won't give me the truth. I've had several moments of insanity where I nearly drove to his W's work to suggest we compare his stories. I know that's the one way to know for sure. But whether he's telling the truth or not, won't I be giving her additional pain just so I can satisfy my obsessive need to know? Sure, if he's lying to us both, I can tell myself she deserves to know. But if he's not lying to me, I would do more damage to someone I don't like very much but who definitely does not deserve any more pain.

 

And even if I get the truth as it stands now, how do I forget that he lied to me? How do I erase the knowledge that he says some of the same things to us both? How do I stop wondering if our entire relationship is a lie? And why can't I stop myself from the sickening thought that this must be exactly how his W felt when she found out about us? She's hopeful that he'll change his mind. He says he wouldn't, even if I weren't in the picture. I think he tells her that, but he also tells her things that contradict it. This will probably sound superficial, but in addition to the "what do I do next" concerns that I have, I also wonder/worry about what my duties are to his W in this situation. It's suddenly very real to me what this was all probably like for her, and I'm forced to conclude that perhaps she's not quite as dislikable as I'd always assumed.

 

I don't know how I expect things to turn out, and I'm not even sure how I want them to turn out. I'm thinking I've had enough conflict and misery to last a lifetime. But I'm also thinking that after all I've invested in this, maybe I shouldn't be too quick to throw it away. And I admit there's a part of me that feels like he left for me (I have independently confirmed he left on his own, over her protest), and I owe it to him to see this through. So what happens next?

[greengoddess]

Talk to his wife. He could be leading you both on. He could be working on getting his wife back while stringing you along or stringing his wife along. If they are truly separated she should be fine with talking to you. If he is stringing you both a along then she will like that info too. Found out for your own peace of mind and hers too.

[2sure]

Sigh. People cheat for many different reasons. But the cake eaters truly simply want both. Want to be the bad guy to no one. A man and woman who are divorcing to not attend events together. A man and woman who are separated and considering reconciling do. OR a woman who is still being lied to.

 

My good friend is a recently divorced BS. Even though her ex is now living with the OW...he still claims they were just friends before they bought a house together. Even after multiple D-Days. And now that the D is final and he does not have to hide his relationship with OW...he is secretly pursuing my friend, his ex wife. Cake eater. Nothing but nothing will stop them from wanting both, or from denying any wrong doing.

 

Now, I dont want to be all gloom and doom for you. What do I know? But yes...talking to his wife would stop this nonsense once and for all, one way or the other. Afterall...how can both of you (his wife and you) go on to make life time decisions without knowing , really knowing, what you are basing those decisions on.

 

If you pry or speak to his wife and he resents that...he'll get over it if he was ready to actually make a decision. If he wasnt going to make one ever..he will simply use that as yet another excuse.

[2sure]

Sweetie...I just read your other posts. You have been waiting years for him to decide between the two of you. He leaves and goes back to his wife. Your affair is not out in the open and she does not know about you.

 

You are waiting for his wife to decide your fate, not him.

[DrIndigo]

I did wait years, and this is supposed to be it. He moved out and told his family/friends they will be divorcing. We go out in public, our friends know we're together, and I'm told his W knows he's seeing someone. I am not sure I believe that she knows that, and she definitely does not know it's me. He doesn't want her to realize he continued cheating on her before they separated. I don't want be the one to give her that information, but I feel like I may lose my mind if I don't get a better handle on the truth.

[InceptorsRule]

How do I stop wondering if our entire relationship is a lie?

 

By acknowledging that it is a lie.

[Owl]

Remove his need (and/or his ability) to lie.

 

Take it on your own to go have a sit down conversation with his wife, and get it all out in the open NOW.

 

Tell her what's gone on, what's going on, and see what she says. She what she does. See what he does.

 

If you want to find out if it's all a lie...start by sharing the truth.

[OWoman]

I'm thinking I've had enough conflict and misery to last a lifetime. But I'm also thinking that after all I've invested in this, maybe I shouldn't be too quick to throw it away. And I admit there's a part of me that feels like he left for me (I have independently confirmed he left on his own, over her protest), and I owe it to him to see this through. So what happens next?

 

DI, no one ever *owes* anyone a R. People earn their Rs through their own daily investment (unless they're incapacitated and incapable). He left because he chose to. And, just as he acted in good faith in doing so, he has to accept you acted in good faith in taking him in - however this works out.

 

I'm going to be a dissenting voice here and not suggest you speak to her - she likely has her own agenda, particularly if he's been leading her on and she thinks she's in with a chance of getting him back - and you arrive on her doorstep with your R's vulnerabilities held up to her scrutiny. I think what you get from her might be anything but "the truth" - you will get *her* truth, whatever that happens to be.

 

Instead, I'd suggest you speak to *him*. Tell him the R is at breaking point because you feel you can't trust him, that you've been badly hurt by his lies and that you're struggling to get beyond that. That, if he does see a future for your R, you need concrete evidence - visible, real progress on the D; some kind of R counselling to work out ways of relating that are acceptable to you both; visibility as a couple to his (s2bx)W. It's not too much to ask, from someone who is really invested in the future of a R. If he feels it is too much to ask, you know he doesn't value your R as much as he values the R with his (s2bx?)W, and you know what choice he's really made.

 

Good luck - I hope you are able to achieve some peace.

[2sure]

OK. I am going to put my newly acquired bitter and jaded attitude aside for a moment and tell you about something I have learned about relationships and life. It has been valuable to me and I am going to take the time here...so please read it carefully and consider it. I wish I had applied it to my life long ago. But its never too late. Not for you and maybe , hopefully not for your guy.

 

I'll start with the clichés that are so true they should be written in stone:

 

Transparency does not hurt a relationship. Privacy does.

Privacy and Respect have nothing to do with each other.

Honesty and being Polite have nothing to do with each other.

If you have to demand reality...you are getting fabrication.

 

Now the application:

 

All of those things are uncomfortable to do and use if you have not been living it. You have not. He has not. BUT thats ok because its something you have to learn to do together anyway. He could not do it with his wife maybe he can do it with you. Maybe you can take the lead, but unless it is done: No Chance.

 

And, only because it easy to forget: A normal and healthy relationship encompasses those things. Thats the work in marriage. Thats the effort. It doesn't just happen.

[Owl]

DI, no one ever *owes* anyone a R. People earn their Rs through their own daily investment (unless they're incapacitated and incapable). He left because he chose to. And, just as he acted in good faith in doing so, he has to accept you acted in good faith in taking him in - however this works out.

 

I'm going to be a dissenting voice here and not suggest you speak to her - she likely has her own agenda, particularly if he's been leading her on and she thinks she's in with a chance of getting him back - and you arrive on her doorstep with your R's vulnerabilities held up to her scrutiny. I think what you get from her might be anything but "the truth" - you will get *her* truth, whatever that happens to be.

 

Instead, I'd suggest you speak to *him*. Tell him the R is at breaking point because you feel you can't trust him, that you've been badly hurt by his lies and that you're struggling to get beyond that. That, if he does see a future for your R, you need concrete evidence - visible, real progress on the D; some kind of R counselling to work out ways of relating that are acceptable to you both; visibility as a couple to his (s2bx)W. It's not too much to ask, from someone who is really invested in the future of a R. If he feels it is too much to ask, you know he doesn't value your R as much as he values the R with his (s2bx?)W, and you know what choice he's really made.

 

Good luck - I hope you are able to achieve some peace.

 

I think that the "speaking to him" advice suggested here is good...as long as it's followed by a hardcore boundary, enforced with some serious consequences (such as ending the relationship) if he refused to meet the needs OW outlined above.

 

But if he's got no 'reason' to start meeting these needs...he never will.

 

Point blank.

 

2sure's summary of the "work" in a marriage (relationship) is also dead on...and if he's not willing to put forth that effort...there's another indicator for you.

 

If he does...then it's your solution.

[2sure]

Yeah, you know I thought about that more myself after I said it.

Reality, truth...you know, its not hard to figure out or understand or see.

Its the fabrication that makes you say whats going on?

[WowReally]

Yeah, you know I thought about that more myself after I said it.

Reality, truth...you know, its not hard to figure out or understand or see.

Its the fabrication that makes you say whats going on?

 

Unless you're a good lie detector...Ive become like a cutting horse when it comes to half truths and flat out lies...cut them off at the pass and see where it goes from there

[2sunny]

the mere fact that you are left wondering tells you that he hasn't "earned" your trust... what good is any man if he's not trustworthy?

 

i need to ask - since his wife does think that he's dating, but NOT dating YOU, who must she think he's dating? maybe there are OOW for this man?

 

since he plays married with her still - that's the way you can expect life to be - especially since you are still his secret, to his W anyway... SINCE he hasn't displayed your R out in the open to his W - he has shown what his agenda is... not to allow you to be known. this doesn't seem enough right here. why are you putting up with him continuing to make you his secret IF he's intending to divorce? he's not going to D - it's just a game to keep everyone in their proper place that suits HIM just fine.

 

YOU are allowing this. YOU have choices. YOU can step away and start to live again. make it hurt for him. cut him off and show him that he can't have it all anymore. he thinks he can - your actions - and his W actions - prove to him that everyone stays in his game as long as he doesn't do anything different. i'd bet money he sleeps with her. if you really need to find out - pay a PI to track every move he makes.

 

since you know he lies - believe nothing. his actions should show all his intentions. IF he intended to D - he would have done so by now. he won't.

 

even Donald Trump got divorced, many times, so i don't buy it when men say they "can't". it's more that they won't make it their priority. they will use everyone for their own benefit.

 

IF you stop playing HIS game, and play YOUR OWN GAME - that holds YOU as YOUR biggest priority - you will start to find what happiness looks like on YOUR terms.

 

without a solid boundary - you will continue to ALLOW him to use you for what works for him.

 

start now. make a decision about what that boundary looks like... and follow the plan to make sure you stick to what works for YOU.

 

when actions don't match the words = he's lying! but you already knew that... start pointing it out every time he lies... he can see why he's not ever earned your trust.

[WowReally]

when actions don't match the words = he's lying! but you already knew that... start pointing it out every time he lies... he can see why he's not ever earned your trust.

 

He'll get defensive and maybe try to turn the tables but stay strong...once you get the hang of it it's actualyl kind of amusing. Kind of like reeling a fish in...you're not gonna reel them in quickly...bide your time so he doesnt slip the hook.

[WalkInThePark]

Please be careful. He lies. That is not good. I have been with a MM. He sometimes lied. I was very hurt by this, told him that I always preferred the ugly truth above a beautiful lie. He managed to convince me that the lies had to do with the situation of still being married.

But you know what? With time I came to understand that lying was the way he did things. He just could not be 100% authentic in a contact, had always a hidden agenda.

 

I understand that you love this guy and you have invested a lot in him so now you want things finally to be normal. This can make you blind for what is really going on. Try for once to look at the situation with your brain, be rational not emotional.

The fact that you feel the need to check things is often an indication that there is something to be found.

 

Take all the possibilities into account, even the worst. When I read your post, my first thought is that there might be another woman in his life apart from you and his wife.

 

You know, I am not in favour of snooping but sometimes I think it is justified. Because some guys are unbelievable in how they deceive people. Snooping allows you to protect from that.

 

And OWoman is right, the wife will most probably have her own agenda. And talking to him, well, if he is dishonest, he won't tell you.

[OWoman]

And OWoman is right, the wife will most probably have her own agenda. And talking to him, well, if he is dishonest, he won't tell you.

 

It's not to do with him "telling" or not. It's to do with DrI telling him clearly that things aren't working, and that if the R is to survive, he needs to make some changes. If he makes the changes, the R has a chance. If he doesn't - he loses DrI and his shot at happiness with her.

[Brokenlady]

As usual, Owoman has excellent points. The reality of right now - today - is that he is not meeting your needs. He can choose to try to meet your needs or not. For now, he has apparently chosen "not". So your task now is only to accept that reality and decide whether its worth it to you to stick in there without your needs getting met and no promise of them getting met in the near future. If he is really invested in your relationship and meeting your needs then he will put forth visible action toward that end. Start small -will he agree just to tell her that he is in a relationship with you? will he agree to be honest about the time he is spending with his W? One foot in front of the other.

 

I spent several years with a flip-flopper like this. Her moved out, but never filed. Eventually his xW filed, but she thought it would scare him into coming back. She never stopped trying to get him back and he lacked good boundaries with her that made it nearly impossible to meet my security needs. I get it. Explain to him to gravity of the situation and see what he is willing to do and whether he follows through on those steps.

[DrIndigo]

Thanks to everyone for the responses.

 

I've talked to him, and he's acknowledged having misled me (though not having outright lied) about the extent to which he was still giving her hope they might reconcile. In the way of explanation, he offered simply that he doesn't want to hurt her and is telling her what she wants to hear. I don't know what to believe. He insists he doesn't feel romantically toward her, and I think that's likely true. But I also think he likes having a safety net in case things don't work out between us. Ugh. There's nothing more frustrating than trying to read someone else's mind!

 

I am insisting on some progress this week and then a little more the next week. We'll see how it goes.

 

At least for the time being, I've decided not to speak to the soon-to-be ex. I am not sure any good would come of it but can easily see how it might make a bad situation worse for her. Maybe it's never appropriate for us to talk to one another - what would we learn except perhaps that he tells us each what we want to hear? I am not convinced knowing what he says to her would lead me any closer to the truth. And I've begun to wonder...maybe he's not emotionally mature enough to have an objective truth; maybe the truth itself changes depending on who is in front of him at the moment.

 

I suddenly feel like I am getting the worst of two worlds...like I'm still a little bit OW and not a legitimate presence in his life and like I'm also his primary relationship whom he isn't being honest with.

[Owl]

Insisting on progress is good...but....

 

Did you word this insistence in any MEASUREABLE way?

 

Progress could be defined a number of ways. But any time you set a goal...you have to have a way to measure your progress to the goal in some meaningful, definable way.

 

What did you insist on, specifically?

 

What will you accept as sufficient progress?

 

What would you consider insufficient?

 

And, most importantly...what happens when he doesn't meet your standard of success?

 

If you have no "teeth" in the agreemant, it's meaningless.

[DrIndigo]

I listed a number of things that upset me and told him to pick one and take care of it this week. File the divorce papers, unfriend her on facebook, stop communicating with her, insist that your family respect your decision, etc. I do want to be sensitive to how hard this probably is and to what I'm asking. So I thought if he could achieve just one thing this week, it would give him some success to feel good about and would show me he wants to do what I need. And if he can't/won't do any of those things this week, then it's time I stop believing he ever will.

[2sunny]

DrIndigo;3000742

I listed a number of things that upset me and told him to pick one and take care of it this week.

 

things that upset you? you are dealing with a man that generally doesn't think about YOUR feelings first - his only. he will do what is best for HIM. he has given you evidence of this.

 

File the divorce papers, unfriend her on facebook, stop communicating with her, insist that your family respect your decision, etc.

 

pick one? how about he pick all? as far as insisting (interesting choice of words) that his family respect his decision - you can't make someone DO anything... IF he hasn't earned their respect - they will never respect anything about him - also, he may be exhibiting the total opposite of what you are requesting and may have NEVER told them that there is any decision.

 

I do want to be sensitive to how hard this probably is and to what I'm asking. So I thought if he could achieve just one thing this week, it would give him some success to feel good about and would show me he wants to do what I need. And if he can't/won't do any of those things this week, then it's time I stop believing he ever will.

 

expect HIM to do what HE needs - not you... that way YOU won't be disappointed, again.

 

i think he's been fooling you for a long time - and will continue to do so as long as YOU allow him to.

[jenifer1972]

Kick this guy to the curb. That would be WIN/WIN for you. He'd either step up to the plate and start making some changes and then come calling, or he would disappear and go skulking back to his wife. Either way, you'd finally get some clarity and truth in the situation.

 

And frankly, you'd be better off if he didn't come back, and then you could move on and get someone who treats you better, and has eyes only for you as we all deserve in a relationship.

[DrIndigo]

Note to self - using vague phrases always leads to confusion.

 

Inceptors:

 

The boyfriend and I are together now only because he moved out, legally separated, and began the process of making me a priority. Unfortunately, that process has stalled. I can appreciate your confusion over my partial (and sometimes unclear) list of needs as well as your hostility toward someone in my position. I am supposed to be his primary and only romantic relationship; indeed, I believed I was. I am struggling with whether I still believe that. An ironically, I find myself wanting many of the same things a BS would want after discovering an affair - the end of all contact, etc. Certainly I believe when two people end a relationship they can be civil and even friends. But only after enough time has passed that neither is hanging around hoping to start things up again. From my perspective, the day he's comfortable sitting at the same table with her and me (as his girlfriend) is the day he's ready to be friends with her. I don't think that's unreasonable at all, but I always leave room for the possibility I'm wrong.

 

Everyone:

 

I do appreciate all the responses and that each response seemed compassionate and designed to address the post rather than fulfill an agenda. Thank you! I'm still in a kind of limbo, but at least I feel like I established a set of clear requirements for going forward.

[Owl]

One thing I'd recommended above that I'd like to re-iterate.

 

It's good to have set expectations.

 

Just make sure that you ALREADY have consequences in place to deal with what happens if/when he doesn't meet those expectations.

 

If he doesn't believe you'll truly do anything to enforce your boundary, he's got no real reason to take action. If you don't enforce that boundary the first time he crosses it, he'll assume that you're too weak to do so.

 

Be ready to enforce your boundaries with those consequences.

 

Good luck to you.

[Brokenlady]

Dr. I,

Owl is right about being prepared to enforce your boundaries. It took me years to be able to be strong enough to do that, but it was absolutely worth it. He isn't going to take your needs seriously unless he believes you'll follow through.

 

I totally understand you wanting him to "cut his wife" out (presuming they have no kids). It's no different that if he was reconciling with her and she'd want you cut out. It's about making a decision and sticking with it. And it seems like he's still struggling with the decision - waffling. It's truly cruel to make her believe they'll reconcile if he won't - my guess is he genuinely isn't 100% sure. You have every reason to feel insecure and he should be interested in taking actions to remedy that.

 

As such, I'm a big fan on getting him to agree to the biggest small step he is able to do. Maybe that's only answering 2 of her phone calls/day, or not being in her house anymore, whatever. And you can move on from there. It seems to me that many MM plateau where yours is. From my experience, the only thing that solves that is sticking to your guns.

 

I imagine watching him grieve his M is as awful as a BS watching her WS grieve his OW. Sometimes I wonder if some of the BS's that post here appreciate that fact. You have to protect you. He seems to want a future with you and is realizing that he'll have to do a lot more than just move out to make that happen- especially if his W is not inclined to let him go. How much do you want to fight for him? Because until he resolves his emotional issues with the D, you will very likely have to keep constant pressure on him. It's exhausting - so would it be worth it to you?