TaraMaiden Posted September 4, 2010 Posted September 4, 2010 Then again everything here is opinion, even your statements. Quite honestly I believe no one will never really know. No, my opinions are substantiated by facts. Please read the attached link, here Do you have any supporting evidence for this claim? How do you know it's not natural for some people to be monogamous? See link, above. In my opinion, monogamy is all about emotion and everything else is moot. To me, using science or logic to explain monogamy, is like trying to explain the emotional impact of buying a 1 lb bag of flour. Ain't gonna' happen. I've never used science or logic to explain Monogamy, because monogamy is not a scientific or logical premise. We are not monogamous. And THAT IS backed by science and logic.
LoveLace Posted September 4, 2010 Posted September 4, 2010 As far as monogamy being a social construct, refer to vasopressin and the impact on men of having none to multiple copies of the gene section called RS3 334 (allele 334). The greater the number of copies, the less likely the man remains monogamous. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Well then crap, I should genetically screen all prospective dates from now on!..If only!
Dazreiello Posted September 4, 2010 Posted September 4, 2010 No, my opinions are substantiated by facts. Please read the attached link, here I noticed that all your "facts" are all based off opinions. They observe other species and apply the signs to human being when all of their claims start with something like "I think". As to sexual monogamy, the situation is obscure, but -- given the high frequency of E.P.C.'s among ostensibly monogamous animals -- it is hard not to suspect something similar among Homo sapiens. This sounds pretty opinionated to me, despite their study and how close it may seem it is still an opinion. I still believe that this shouldnt apply to every human being seeing as how we're all different in many ways including 'natural behavior'. It's all opinion and nothing more. Besides I say it really isnt anyone's business weather monogamy comes to a person naturally or not, not like they would know how it felt to begin with unless they were that person. And maybe we all should just leave it as that actually, otherwise we're all just going to repeat ourselves eventually, that gets incredibly boring.
TaraMaiden Posted September 4, 2010 Posted September 4, 2010 I noticed that all your "facts" are all based off opinions. They observe other species and apply the signs to human being when all of their claims start with something like "I think". If you wish to interpret it that way, fine. I would say their "I think" are highly educated guesses, whereas discussion on this forum is pure hypothesis and personal insistence because we hate to think of ourselves functioning on the same levels as chimps. If you wish to cleave to your opinion, of course, that's your prerogative. But I'm relatively persuaded by theirs.... This sounds pretty opinionated to me, despite their study and how close it may seem it is still an opinion.Backed by years of study and qualification, no doubt. Whereas you'd like to counter their argument with what, and on what basis...? I still believe that this shouldnt apply to every human being seeing as how we're all different in many ways including 'natural behavior'. It's all opinion and nothing more. My my, your conditioning is strong. Well, ok if you're happy, I'm happy.....! Besides I say it really isnt anyone's business weather monogamy comes to a person naturally or not, not like they would know how it felt to begin with unless they were that person. Monogamy never comes naturally to anybody. If it did, we'd all still be with 'person we loved' #1, or having broken up with them, perpetually single. Some might practice serial monogamy, but too many relationships 'overlap' for that to be a universal characteristic....Monogamy, isn't natural. It's a choice. That's why marriage vows ask us to commit to that. It's a decision we make. It's a vow we take. It's a promise we break. Time and time again. And maybe we all should just leave it as that actually, otherwise we're all just going to repeat ourselves eventually, that gets incredibly boring. Well thanks for coming. I'll get your coat......
MrNate Posted September 5, 2010 Posted September 5, 2010 Well what does 'natural mean? I'm going to have to go with Tara. I definitely don't think it's natural, but rather is a conscious choice we make because of the benefits.
Author kuma Posted September 5, 2010 Author Posted September 5, 2010 Monogamy, isn't natural. It's a choice. That's why marriage vows ask us to commit to that. It's a decision we make. It's a vow we take. It's a promise we break. Time and time again. I agree that monogamy is a choice. It's natural to be attracted to other people. Just because we're biologically wired to cheat, doesn't mean that we have to cheat. Humans have the ability to understand the differences between right and wrong. We choose to be faithful. We choose to be unfaithful. This is just my opinion. Thanks for your link re:monogamy. Thanks everybody for your comments.
CLC2008 Posted September 5, 2010 Posted September 5, 2010 I agree that monogamy is a choice. It's natural to be attracted to other people. Just because we're biologically wired to cheat, doesn't mean that we have to cheat. Humans have the ability to understand the differences between right and wrong. We choose to be faithful. We choose to be unfaithful. This is just my opinion. Thanks for your link re:monogamy. Thanks everybody for your comments. Perfectly stated and I agree 100%. That is my fundamental belief, it is how I operate. I expect no less in return.
CupidsPosionedArrow Posted September 5, 2010 Posted September 5, 2010 (edited) Monogamy never comes naturally to anybody. If it did, we'd all still be with 'person we loved' #1, or having broken up with them, perpetually single. Some might practice serial monogamy, but too many relationships 'overlap' for that to be a universal characteristic....Monogamy, isn't natural. It's a choice. That's why marriage vows ask us to commit to that. It's a decision we make. It's a vow we take. It's a promise we break. Time and time again. CORRECTION: Well, I don't agree entirely from what I've read. Men tend to follow a "mixed reproductive strategy," they establish "mateships" with designated females while also making themselves available for E.P.C.'s (Extra-Pair Copulations) with other females, whom they will not assist. Females are similar to some regard, they have EPCs in risk of losing mateship but do it to gain genetic diversity within their offspring. Looking at primates, Gorillas, who have control over mating, have small testicles, where as in chimps, they are at the other end of the spectrum with the largest. How, then, do human beings rate in this regard? The testicles of Homo sapiens (humans) are, relatively speaking, larger than those of gorillas but smaller than those of the champion chimps. The most likely interpretation? Human beings are less certain of sexual monopoly than are gorillas, but are not as promiscuous as chimps. Another way of putting it: We are (somewhat) biologically primed to form mateships, but at the same time, adultery is no stranger in our evolutionary past. So, hence there is some degree of monogomy, it is built into our brains via the dopamine reward circuit. Edited September 5, 2010 by CupidsPosionedArrow
dreamingoftigers Posted September 5, 2010 Posted September 5, 2010 Do you have any supporting evidence for this claim? How do you know it's not natural for some people to be monogamous? I would say that I am naturally monogamous.
CupidsPosionedArrow Posted September 5, 2010 Posted September 5, 2010 I agree that monogamy is a choice. It's natural to be attracted to other people. Just because we're biologically wired to cheat, doesn't mean that we have to cheat. Humans have the ability to understand the differences between right and wrong. We choose to be faithful. We choose to be unfaithful. This is just my opinion. Thanks for your link re:monogamy. Thanks everybody for your comments. Again, I feel you are humanizing and idealizing things a bit.. We "have" to cheat to simply best hedge our genetic outcomes. But we also generally have the biology to be monogamous as well. Interestingly, a feature of monogamy is that it stabilizes societies, in the west, your chances of getting married or whatever are fairly good (if you try hard enough), and we have an even distribution. Societies where polygamy is rampant, scores of men who never have an opportunity to reproduce are discontent and festering to say the least. This is why the middle east has more explosive (literally) conflict. The funny thing is that women who are in this situation are better off sharing themselves with say a single rich man than entirely exclusively with a single poor one. So a (obviously more wealthy) man with 12 wives, is a benefit to the 12 women over a 1 to 1 poor couple.
Nikki Sahagin Posted September 5, 2010 Posted September 5, 2010 Hmmm, I think most of us at some point want more than just our partners, but we all want to be the only one to our partners. I think its something to do with wanting to replace our mother figure and wanting to be the centre of the world to someone, we replace that figure with a lover one day (ideally) who will love us all the time no matter what. Really its just human possessiveness, greed and irrationality. We want someone all to ourselves. I want it too, though I don't think monogamy is natural for men or women.
Dazreiello Posted September 5, 2010 Posted September 5, 2010 CORRECTION: Well, I don't agree entirely from what I've read. Men tend to follow a "mixed reproductive strategy," they establish "mateships" with designated females while also making themselves available for E.P.C.'s (Extra-Pair Copulations) with other females, whom they will not assist. Females are similar to some regard, they have EPCs in risk of losing mateship but do it to gain genetic diversity within their offspring. Looking at primates, Gorillas, who have control over mating, have small testicles, where as in chimps, they are at the other end of the spectrum with the largest. How, then, do human beings rate in this regard? The testicles of Homo sapiens (humans) are, relatively speaking, larger than those of gorillas but smaller than those of the champion chimps. The most likely interpretation? Human beings are less certain of sexual monopoly than are gorillas, but are not as promiscuous as chimps. Another way of putting it: We are (somewhat) biologically primed to form mateships, but at the same time, adultery is no stranger in our evolutionary past. So, hence there is some degree of monogomy, it is built into our brains via the dopamine reward circuit. This makes more sense to me actually.
Nikki Sahagin Posted September 5, 2010 Posted September 5, 2010 Also, about the Notebook comments. This just shows the difference between real life and the movies. In real life Noah would be told to go NC and lock her off.
LoveLace Posted September 5, 2010 Posted September 5, 2010 Also, about the Notebook comments. This just shows the difference between real life and the movies. In real life Noah would be told to go NC and lock her off. Lol. I just refer to the fact that he loves her so much that he never wants to leave her side. The reason I want monogamous relationships is because I eventually want that guy who loves me that way, and vice-versa. But as far as I'm concerned, there aren't any Noahs running around, or at least not enough
Author kuma Posted September 5, 2010 Author Posted September 5, 2010 We "have" to cheat to simply best hedge our genetic outcomes. I'm not a man so I have to ask you this: Do men cheat because they want more sex and more variety? Are you saying that men only cheat because they need to spread their seed?
CupidsPosionedArrow Posted September 6, 2010 Posted September 6, 2010 I'm not a man so I have to ask you this: Do men cheat because they want more sex and more variety? Are you saying that men only cheat because they need to spread their seed? Interesting that you say this.. Largely it has to do with emotional discontentment. Many times couples get married and pop out a child or two, mom's love and affection shifts to the child leaving the man high and dry. Love lost or that "spark" will potentially push men into the arms of another woman. Though it should be noted that statistically women cheat nearly as often as men do.
xxoo Posted September 6, 2010 Posted September 6, 2010 Monogamy never comes naturally to anybody. Monogamy comes naturally to me, at this point in my life. And this is why: and at some point, you realize there's more to sex than it just being available, and you start wanting that psychological, spiritual bond with someone ... Sex with a new partner holds no interest for me at all at this point. In my 20s it did--I thought it would be exciting to be with new people. Maybe it would have; don't know, never did it. But now, in my late 30s, sex with my partner (same partner) is satisfying on a level I couldn't imagine with a new partner--someone just learning my body and my responses. We've comes so far in our emotional bond that a new partner simply couldn't measure up. Why would I want to take on the risks of multiple partners for sex that is FAR less fulfilling than with my mono partner? That's why I prefer a mono relationship
Nikki Sahagin Posted September 6, 2010 Posted September 6, 2010 I have to say that I think the 'excitement' of new sex is pretty exaggerated. Its more of a fantasy; unless you find many partners who are good at satisfying you sexually.
Shakz Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 CORRECTION: Well, I don't agree entirely from what I've read. Men tend to follow a "mixed reproductive strategy," they establish "mateships" with designated females while also making themselves available for E.P.C.'s (Extra-Pair Copulations) with other females, whom they will not assist. Females are similar to some regard, they have EPCs in risk of losing mateship but do it to gain genetic diversity within their offspring. Looking at primates, Gorillas, who have control over mating, have small testicles, where as in chimps, they are at the other end of the spectrum with the largest. How, then, do human beings rate in this regard? The testicles of Homo sapiens (humans) are, relatively speaking, larger than those of gorillas but smaller than those of the champion chimps. The most likely interpretation? Human beings are less certain of sexual monopoly than are gorillas, but are not as promiscuous as chimps. Another way of putting it: We are (somewhat) biologically primed to form mateships, but at the same time, adultery is no stranger in our evolutionary past. So, hence there is some degree of monogomy, it is built into our brains via the dopamine reward circuit. Are these mateships in other primates generally long-term or do they frequently end once the offspring have developed to sufficient maturity? Perhaps, since our offspring take longer to mature, human's have evolved a greater tendency toward longer mateships. This necessary longer pairing might have resulted in stronger emotional bonding, possibly making EPC's less frequent than in our ape cousins.
CupidsPosionedArrow Posted September 8, 2010 Posted September 8, 2010 (edited) Are these mateships in other primates generally long-term or do they frequently end once the offspring have developed to sufficient maturity? Perhaps, since our offspring take longer to mature, human's have evolved a greater tendency toward longer mateships. This necessary longer pairing might have resulted in stronger emotional bonding, possibly making EPC's less frequent than in our ape cousins. Well, using your logic, that would have to infer that Gorillas, bonobos, chimps, and other similarly classified apes would have vastly different maturity rates. They don't. It's really about spreading genes, decoupled from the maturity rates of the species, hence, humans probably capable of raising children which aren't their own (obviously rhetorical comment).. *er I should say it puts them all in the same size of our testicle scale/chart .. ha ha ha Edited September 8, 2010 by CupidsPosionedArrow
Shakz Posted September 9, 2010 Posted September 9, 2010 *er I should say it puts them all in the same size of our testicle scale/chart .. ha ha ha I assumed great apes reached puberty at about age 6-8. Have no idea where I got that notion but for some reason I blame Discovery Channel.
TaraMaiden Posted September 9, 2010 Posted September 9, 2010 "You and me baby ain't nothin' but mammals So let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel Do it again now".... (Bloodhound Gang, "Discovery Channel") ....Isn't this where I came in....? :laugh:
Author kuma Posted September 9, 2010 Author Posted September 9, 2010 (Bloodhound Gang, "Discovery Channel") I just listened to the song and thought it was hilarious.
Shakz Posted September 10, 2010 Posted September 10, 2010 (Bloodhound Gang, "Discovery Channel") ....Isn't this where I came in....? :laugh: You're a sharp cookie, TM!
TaraMaiden Posted September 10, 2010 Posted September 10, 2010 Couldn't do it without a line-feeder, Shakz!!
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