Speaking on behalf of the man

[Silly_Girl]

 

not to be sarcastic, so excuse me if i come off that way, but how do you know what a married man thinks/feels? you are not a man. how can you understand what a married man does and thinks? it is like i can sympathize and empathize with someone during a hard time, but unless i am them and living all aspects of their life, i have no way of knowing exactly what they are thinking and feeling. even with a married relationship, as much as you know your spouse and can finish their sentence, someone else besides the person feeling it cannot 100% understand it or know it.

 

Not to pick on any post or poster in particular, but this happened to be a timely reminder of something I wanted to raise...

 

When the conversation turns to how the MM is thinking, or why he maybe behave a certain way, I get the impression that any claim by OW to explain/understand his actions is met with a 'you can't possibly know what he's thinking, you are NOT him, he's a liar'. Etc.

 

Now I can see how posters' experiences could lead them to think that way, but I'm not sure it's altogether helpful. If we would collectively like to take the stance that everything MM says to OW is bullsheet then so be it, but I don't think that's where we're at.

 

An OW who has been on the scene s long time can, I feel, talk with authority as to what their MM says he would do in situation X or Y or Z, or how he feels about such and such, yes there is a risk that he has a vested interest and may be painting things to suit him, but I think we all understand that.

 

The reason it frustrates me is often BS's will post (on the OW board) 'my husband felt X when this happened' or 'he'd have preferred such-and-such' but what I don't see is a chorus of OW's shouting it down claiming the BS has no clue REALLY how he felt about.. well, anything at all.

 

But often when the OW relays the MM's thoughts/feelings there's an intimation that she has no clue because she's constantly being lied to...

 

This may be me being over-sensitive, if so I apologise, but it feels a bit double standards to me in that BS's are permitted to speak for their man, but OW are not.

 

I liked the above example for this point because it DOES mention not fully knowing someone's mind even when you're married to them however, the comment was made to a long-term OW, not a BS. Which is generally how I see it happening here.

[jennie-jennie]

In many affairs, the wife provides the MM with a sense of family and the OW provides him with a connection to his emotional self.

 

He pours out his emotions and his thoughts to the OW, happy to have reconnected with this inner part of himself.

 

Part of what they are talking about is the being torn between the marriage and the extramarital relationship, an issue the wife is not even aware is existing.

 

My MM and I have talked for thousands of hours during these years. We usually talk for several hours a day. Often about our relationship and our feelings.

 

Of course you can not know exactly what goes on in another's mind, but you can get to know them pretty well. Especially when they have no inhibition when talking to you. Nothing to conceal, only a wish to connect.

[OWoman]

In the absence of our SOs being here to post their own thoughts as they would prefer to represent them, all of us tend to reflect their perspectives (whether as shown by their words, or their deeds) on their behalves. And while we do it as accurately and honestly as we can, of course there is always the risk that we misrepresent or misinterpret something. Anyone who has ever been the victim of research will know all too well the feeling of outrage at seeing your words twisted and given a different slant, to suit the aims of the researcher . I think this is more likely to happen in LTRs (Ms, or As) where SOs feel they know each other so intimately that they can intuit what the other is thinking or feeling, without stopping to check. While this security is reassuring, it's also the flip-side of complacency and can lead to breakdowns in communication and understanding, and eventually to living past each other.

 

I have no problem with people claiming to speak on behalf of another who is not here - as long as they admit to the possibility that they may be wrong (be they OW or BS). But, given that they know their SO better than anyone else here, anyone challenging them needs to admit that they're at least as likely to be wrong, themselves!

[Ellin]

 

This may be me being over-sensitive, if so I apologise, but it feels a bit double standards to me in that BS's are permitted to speak for their man, but OW are not.

 

 

I don't think this is over-sensitive, I think you've made a good point and something I noticed right from the start after I came to LS.

 

It's just one example of the double standards being widely practised here.

[BurriedAlive]

I don't think this is over-sensitive, I think you've made a good point and something I noticed right from the start after I came to LS.

 

It's just one example of the double standards being widely practised here.

 

 

I totally agree as well. Just because OWs fall on the wrong side of the moral coin doesn't mean we don't have a lot of insight into a person. After all, we all know things that the BSs will/may never know about their husbands.

[BB07]

You made a good point SG, one size/one fit scenario's do not always apply and there are some who shout out the same mantra regardless.

[crazycatlady]

I can speak for my H fairly confidently now however I will admit that I did not know his mind during his affair. I do believe that there was a time where she probably did know him better. And that is one of the reasons why it hurt me so bad. Because as his wife, I should have been that person. Especially since he did not plan to ever leave me. She knew he loved me (and none of that love but not in love bull) I saw those messages to each other. But he cut me off from a part of himself.

 

And thinking that it was because of the work turmoil going on (whether he would have a job by the end of last year or not) I was standing back going "I have faith in you to do the right thing by us" Which probably didn't help his feelings of guilt at all.

 

I would feel very confident now speaking for him...and actually once I found out about the affair it explained a lot to me and I probably would have felt pretty confident speaking for him then. But during his affair, no that knowledge would keep me from truly being able to speak for him. Because it was an aborition in his behavior. He was cheating on a long term....for a couple of years emotionally, and physically for 10 months before I knew. The emotional wasn't too hard on him guiltwise which kept him from changing so much from who I knew. But the physical betrayal did. During that time I didn't know him.

 

The man I knew would never have hidden something like that. We have an open marriage. The man I knew would have told me about her, and if it wasn't someone i was interested in too, or if she weren't interested in me, just see her on the side. The man I knew joked about the fact that he didn't have to hid having a girl friend........during the time he was having an affair! Sooooo. No, I didn't know him.

 

But....I think its like this....when you are with someone, you have to trust they are showing you the real person. I get that the OW believe their MM is being real to them. Because the affair is hidden, I think during affairs they knows their MM better then the wives do. But they do have to take on faith that what they are being told in return is also true. I don't think that's always the case. But wives have to take on faith (or go nuts checking or feeling doubts all the time) that their men are truly back to them (or in my case, that if he speaks with her he will let me know, I never said he couldn't). So in both cases faith is being taken where it has been shown that it might not be wise to take.

 

CCL

[terrific]

I cannot speak for a MM, but I can say as a MW my OM knew far more about what I was really feeling than my H. We spent hours communicating about a million things that I just simply did not talk to my H about. I cannot imagine it is that different for a MM. I would truthfully say that I was brutally honest with the OM about almost everything and just simply chose to not communicate with the H about things. I don't know how if there are strong feelings involved between the AP that the BS can really know what is going on in their spouses mind and I do not believe for one second that the OW is the one that is constantly being fed a pack of lies, maybe in some cases but certainly not all.

[LucreziaBorgia]

I often post from the cheating side of things, and get told every once in a while the same thing.

 

People are more than happy to hear things from the BS side, or the OW side but rarely from the (often mercenary) side of the person who is cheating - why? Because it hurts everyone on every side.

 

I'll tell you this: the only person who can speak with authority about what the cheater REALLY thinks and feels is the cheater, and the cheater only.

 

Everyone else gets reality through a filter and can only really speak from that filtered position: OW/OM gets MM/MW through one filter, the BS through another, and the OOW/OOM still another filter. What comes through that filter is truth, tailored with as many half-truths as necessary to fit a certain situation.

[silverplanets]

It's hard enough trying to understand (and take responsibility for) me, without trying to guess about others ... whatever their marital status.

 

[mmk1]

As a mm, I totally agree with JJ and terrific. I certainly felt connected with my emotional side with my MW in a way I did not with my W. I also talked about so much more with my MW than my W, as terrific did. those are the things I miss more than the sex now that my A ended. good posts!

[jennie-jennie]

I often post from the cheating side of things, and get told every once in a while the same thing.

 

People are more than happy to hear things from the BS side, or the OW side but rarely from the (often mercenary) side of the person who is cheating - why? Because it hurts everyone on every side.

 

I'll tell you this: the only person who can speak with authority about what the cheater REALLY thinks and feels is the cheater, and the cheater only.

 

Everyone else gets reality through a filter and can only really speak from that filtered position: OW/OM gets MM/MW through one filter, the BS through another, and the OOW/OOM still another filter. What comes through that filter is truth, tailored with as many half-truths as necessary to fit a certain situation.

 

I always appreciate the input of MM/MW. One reason I read on LS is to understand the dynamics of an affair. To do that you need input from all three sides of the triangle.

 

Very often I can see that the MM/MW posting think the same way as my MM does. You seem to think very differently though. If I am not mistaken, you were a serial cheater without any deep emotional connection in your affairs?

[terrific]

mmk1.....so you still miss her...are you starting to connect with your wife?

[NoIDidn't]

I think there is an issue with hypersensitivity in this forum, in general.

 

Anyone that isn't an OP is viewed with suspicion, and often encouraged be viewed in such a way by many OPs in this forum.

 

I think when people say "my H did thus and so" they are only attempting to give a view that wasn't considered when trying to figure out the mind of the MP.

 

I don't think the OW or the W can know the mind of a man that is cheating. Usually, he doesn't know it either. So I'd take both views with a grain of salt.

 

And I agree with LB, often when an MP posts here (with the exception of the MPs that are still blinded to what the outcome of their affair really is going to be - still in the thick of it), no one wants to read it because its hurtful to all sides. OPs feel used. Spouses feel duped. No one wins.

[mmk1]

Terrific, again I identified with what you said in your post as true for me as well. I do miss my MW and still her occassionally professionally, but its over. This last time I asked her where we were going with this A and I want us to both get a D and get married. With a small child, she said no and broke things off for good.

 

No, I dont see anymore connection with my W, despite MC. As JJ said, that emotional connection simply is not there like it was with my OW. Now that I've have that kind of emotional connection, the lack of it in my M is pronounced and I want that with someone else if it cannot be with my W.

 

We are in the process of seperation and likely D so we both can find someone better for each of us. My W is a good person and I wish it were there, but it is not.

Edited August 30, 2010 by mmk1

[LucreziaBorgia]

 

Very often I can see that the MM/MW posting think the same way as my MM does. You seem to think very differently though. If I am not mistaken, you were a serial cheater without any deep emotional connection in your affairs?

 

There were times where emotion was there, but one thing to consider - I have always posted here at LS from hindsight and not in the heat of the moment.

 

I know that if I were hot and heavy in the midst of an affair with someone and was enjoying it, that my posts would be different - it is human nature to filter according to your current situation. You rarely see someone in the midst of an affair (regardless of what part they play in the triangle) being objective and posting as such. You'd have to be damn near Vulcan to pull that off.

 

I am not W, I am not the cheater, and I am not OW. I don't have current filters right now that edit what I tend to write here. I am distanced from all of those things, and can post about them objectively (ie - including parts that few really want to see when it comes to the mind of someone who cheats).

[jennie-jennie]

There were times where emotion was there, but one thing to consider - I have always posted here at LS from hindsight and not in the heat of the moment.

 

I know that if I were hot and heavy in the midst of an affair with someone and was enjoying it, that my posts would be different - it is human nature to filter according to your current situation. You rarely see someone in the midst of an affair (regardless of what part they play in the triangle) being objective and posting as such. You'd have to be damn near Vulcan to pull that off.

 

I am not W, I am not the cheater, and I am not OW. I don't have current filters right now that edit what I tend to write here. I am distanced from all of those things, and can post about them objectively (ie - including parts that few really want to see when it comes to the mind of someone who cheats).

 

But nevertheless, you were a serial cheater, in which case I believe the dynamics can be quite different.

[silktricks]

When the conversation turns to how the MM is thinking, or why he maybe behave a certain way, I get the impression that any claim by OW to explain/understand his actions is met with a 'you can't possibly know what he's thinking, you are NOT him, he's a liar'. Etc.

 

Now I can see how posters' experiences could lead them to think that way, but I'm not sure it's altogether helpful. If we would collectively like to take the stance that everything MM says to OW is bullsheet then so be it, but I don't think that's where we're at.

 

An OW who has been on the scene s long time can, I feel, talk with authority as to what their MM says he would do in situation X or Y or Z, or how he feels about such and such, yes there is a risk that he has a vested interest and may be painting things to suit him, but I think we all understand that.

 

The reason it frustrates me is often BS's will post (on the OW board) 'my husband felt X when this happened' or 'he'd have preferred such-and-such' but what I don't see is a chorus of OW's shouting it down claiming the BS has no clue REALLY how he felt about.. well, anything at all.

 

But often when the OW relays the MM's thoughts/feelings there's an intimation that she has no clue because she's constantly being lied to...

 

 

SG - I really like this thread. It's good you started it, and I hope it doesn't (as so many do) simply degenerate into mud-slinging... Anyway, I think you have a very valid point which is important to air. The one thing I would want to add is that here on LS often OW also take the stance that the BS or fBS knows nothing of their husband's thoughts and feelings.

 

IMO and from my experience, being totally and completely honest in a relationship is easier in the beginning then it is later. In the beginning (say the first year or two or even three) you don't have as much to lose, if the other person walks. So... to me, it seems completely plausible that in an affair the OW is told inner thoughts - and this ability to speak and act truly, may very well be at least part of why the affair holds such attraction for the married person (of course, the OP is the other part.... )

 

Now, that said, many of the fBS who post here are in fully recovered marriages. We (and our spouses) have found the hard way, that it doesn't pay to "protect" our spouses from the truth of how we feel or think. Though it's easy to fall into the habit of not wanting to "hurt" someone by being upfront about our feelings, the downside of this is a loss of intimacy. So, we don't hide things anymore, either. We also know the innermost thoughts of each other, just like in a new relationship, except that we also have many many years of shared history as well. That's a potent combination for creation of intimacy

 

Anyway, I think OW who are in a relationship with someone who isn't just a habitual MM probably very well understand the MM. And fBS in a recovered marriage also very well understands their husband or wife.

Edited August 30, 2010 by silktricks

[Summer Breeze]

SG - I really like this thread. It's good you started it, and I hope it doesn't (as so many do) simply degenerate into mud-slinging... Anyway, I think you have a very valid point which is important to air. The one thing I would want to add is that here on LS often OW also take the stance that the BS or fBS knows nothing of their husband's thoughts and feelings.

 

IMO and from my experience, being totally and completely honest in a relationship is easier in the beginning then it is later. In the beginning (say the first year or two or even three) you don't have as much to lose, if the other person walks. So... to me, it seems completely plausible that in an affair the OW is told inner thoughts - and this ability to speak and act truly, may very well be at least part of why the affair holds such attraction for the married person (of course, the OP is the other part.... )

 

Now, that said, many of the fBS who post here are in fully recovered marriages. We (and our spouses) have found the hard way, that it doesn't pay to "protect" our spouses from the truth of how we feel or think. Though it's easy to fall into the habit of not wanting to "hurt" someone by being upfront about our feelings, the downside of this is a loss of intimacy. So, we don't hide things anymore, either. We also know the innermost thoughts of each other, just like in a new relationship, except that we also have many many years of shared history as well. That's a potent combination for creation of intimacy

 

Anyway, I think OW who are in a relationship with someone who isn't just a habitual MM probably very well understand the MM. And fBS in a recovered marriage also very well understands their husband or wife.

 

The bolded part. That is absolutely lovely.

[stillafool]

Not to pick on any post or poster in particular, but this happened to be a timely reminder of something I wanted to raise...

 

When the conversation turns to how the MM is thinking, or why he maybe behave a certain way, I get the impression that any claim by OW to explain/understand his actions is met with a 'you can't possibly know what he's thinking, you are NOT him, he's a liar'. Etc.

 

Now I can see how posters' experiences could lead them to think that way, but I'm not sure it's altogether helpful. If we would collectively like to take the stance that everything MM says to OW is bullsheet then so be it, but I don't think that's where we're at.

 

An OW who has been on the scene s long time can, I feel, talk with authority as to what their MM says he would do in situation X or Y or Z, or how he feels about such and such, yes there is a risk that he has a vested interest and may be painting things to suit him, but I think we all understand that.

 

The reason it frustrates me is often BS's will post (on the OW board) 'my husband felt X when this happened' or 'he'd have preferred such-and-such' but what I don't see is a chorus of OW's shouting it down claiming the BS has no clue REALLY how he felt about.. well, anything at all.

 

But often when the OW relays the MM's thoughts/feelings there's an intimation that she has no clue because she's constantly being lied to...

 

This may be me being over-sensitive, if so I apologise, but it feels a bit double standards to me in that BS's are permitted to speak for their man, but OW are not.

 

I liked the above example for this point because it DOES mention not fully knowing someone's mind even when you're married to them however, the comment was made to a long-term OW, not a BS. Which is generally how I see it happening here.

 

I hear what you are saying. I personally think the W can't trust anythingthat spouts out of his mouth either. I think BS and OW are both foolish to believe anything he would say.

[donnamaybe]

I missed the part where a BS says he/she knows EVERYTHING going on in the mind of anyone else.

[LucreziaBorgia]

But nevertheless, you were a serial cheater, in which case I believe the dynamics can be quite different.

 

Why do you feel the dynamics would be different? There are plenty of OW who are with MM who have been and are serial cheaters (some even are with MM who have OOW) who would argue that their MM loves them with as much capacity as a MM who has only cheated once (though more MM/MW are serial cheaters than you would think - few would really admit to their OW/OM that they were just one of many affairs particularly if they have distance and plenty of time on their hands).

 

Serial cheaters are capable of emotional attachment (even if they probably aren't going to be monogamous in general). What really is the difference between a person who cheats once, and a person who cheats frequently? If you found out your MM cheated numerous times before you or had an OOW would that change your relationship just because you knew about it if nothing otherwise was different?

 

In my case, every time was different. Sometimes I would have more emotional connection than others. Some I'd have no emotional connection at all. It depended on the person I was with, and the person I was cheating on. I can tell you this - I never admitted to any of the OM I was with that they were just one of many. Never. I know I'm not the only one who tended to omit that tidbit of information, either. As OW I never admitted that I was pretty adept at that too.

 

Its like that old 'snake' story - OW/OM should keep up their guard, and always remember what they are dealing with, and they are less likely to get surprised if and when the snake strikes.

[jennie-jennie]

Why do you feel the dynamics would be different? There are plenty of OW who are with MM who have been and are serial cheaters (some even are with MM who have OOW) who would argue that their MM loves them with as much capacity as a MM who has only cheated once (though more MM/MW are serial cheaters than you would think - few would really admit to their OW/OM that they were just one of many affairs particularly if they have distance and plenty of time on their hands).

 

Serial cheaters are capable of emotional attachment (even if they probably aren't going to be monogamous in general). What really is the difference between a person who cheats once, and a person who cheats frequently? If you found out your MM cheated numerous times before you or had an OOW would that change your relationship just because you knew about it if nothing otherwise was different?

 

In my case, every time was different. Sometimes I would have more emotional connection than others. Some I'd have no emotional connection at all. It depended on the person I was with, and the person I was cheating on. I can tell you this - I never admitted to any of the OM I was with that they were just one of many. Never. I know I'm not the only one who tended to omit that tidbit of information, either. As OW I never admitted that I was pretty adept at that too.

 

Its like that old 'snake' story - OW/OM should keep up their guard, and always remember what they are dealing with, and they are less likely to get surprised if and when the snake strikes.

 

Since both my exSOs were serial cheaters, I will have to go back to my knowledge of them to see how it fits with what you are posting. It is indeed true that their affairs differed, some were without emotional connection and some were with emotional connection. So I will agree with you on that.

 

Willingness to share your entire past, is usually something that happens early on in a relationship when you are getting to know each other. Obviously that has not been the case for you, since you omitted the information that you had had extramarital relationships before.

 

Perhaps serial cheaters are more likely to not tell the truth?

 

Perhaps the division is not as simple as I thought. We will just have to conclude that there are different kinds of MM/MW then. Those that think like you, and those that think like terrific and mmk1 posted earlier in this thread.

 

And no, I am not going to keep my guard up to my MM. Trusting is healing, healing is trusting, he has proved he is worth trusting. I'd rather be proved wrong, than distrust a man worth trusting.

[LucreziaBorgia]

Obviously that has not been the case for you, since you omitted the information that you had had extramarital relationships before.

 

You'd be surprised how many "good decent MM/MW" fail to share key things about their past, particularly things that might raise red flags like "I've done this before". Usually you hear "I've never done this before", which is dismally typical.

 

Perhaps the division is not as simple as I thought. We will just have to conclude that there are different kinds of MM/MW then.

 

The only difference is your perception of them.

Edited August 31, 2010 by LucreziaBorgia

[BB07]

LucreziaBorgia I appreciate your posts, it's an unique insight that you share with us.

 

Thanks!