Is it rape if....

[WintersNightTraveler]

So... Why do you think the responsibility relies 100% on the man?

 

Because I'm not afraid to take some responsibility and call it like it is. Is it clear as day in this thread. The woman says no, and he sticks it in. Big mistake. It doesn't matter how loudly she says it.

 

Trying to evaluate intentions after the fact is a no win proposition, an exercise in speculative futility. We need a standard that can be interpreted in practice. It's a no brainer to have "no means no" be a part of that standard (just a part, since there are other situations it doesn't cover).

 

I am not saying there aren't women who change their story.

 

I am not saying there aren't women who make up crazy nonsense to get men falsely accused.

 

I am not saying there aren't women who really do want it, and are getting off on saying no.

 

I am not saying "no means no" is a perfect panacea.

 

But none of this is what we are talking about here. It is clear as day in this thread if we just look at the simple story told here. She said no. She didn't make up some story and she didn't change her tune. She just said no. What part of this are you guys missing?

 

Date rape statistics are staggering to me. But what's even worse is when friends or lovers confide that it happened to them, and they don't tell many people because of this kind of nonsense.

 

Your bizarrely inflated concerns for false rape accusations are lame. There are no unheralded masses of falsely accused men whose lives are ruined. There are some tragic but relatively rare men who have unjust legal action taken against them, and a few more who have vicious rumors spread about them.

 

Yes this is awful, but unfortunately it gets even worse, because date rape is sickeningly common. If some people (both men and women) weren't so neanderthal about they approach, blaming the victim or making it her responsibility to not get herself raped, your friends and family who have had this happen to them might have told you about it. I bet then you'd change your tune, because most people who make these objections are genuinely concerned about justice and well being here, but just have a perspective that is wildly out of proportion.

[WintersNightTraveler]

Also... the words "no" need to be accompanied by similar body language.

 

No it doesn't.

 

The next time you literally can feel the heat down below but you hear "no, I don't" just put on the brakes and send her home. You'll be pissed off for about 3 hours and maybe have blue balls. Complain to your best friend if you need to blow off some steam. But don't let the genuine but modest problems inherent in dating (mixed signals, unsatisfied urges, cramps in your scrotum and pre-ejaculate in your boxers) obscure the much bigger problem (sometimes are women who are forced to have sex when they don't want to).

 

Just man up and deal with it, and proudly expect your fellow men to do the same or to face the legal and social consequences.

Edited August 25, 2010 by WintersNightTraveler

[Cobra_X]

But none of this is what we are talking about here. It is clear as day in this thread if we just look at the simple story told here. She said no. She didn't make up some story and she didn't change her tune. She just said no. What part of this are you guys missing?

 

Yes this is awful, but unfortunately it gets even worse, because date rape is sickeningly common. If some people (both men and women) weren't so neanderthal about they approach, blaming the victim or making it her responsibility to not get herself raped, your friends and family who have had this happen to them might have told you about it. I bet then you'd change your tune, because most people who make these objections are genuinely concerned about justice and well being here, but just have a perspective that is wildly out of proportion.

 

Are you insane?

 

No normal person jumps into a full relationship with their rapist. She clearly states that she dated this guy afterwards... That should tell you something about the intent and direction of the relationship prior.

 

Whether this particular situation is ACTUALLY rape or not is impossible to tell. Your only getting one side of the story... and your foolish to convict the guy just based on the word of someone who doesn't seem mentally stable.

 

No it doesn't.

The next time you literally can feel the heat down below but you hear "no, I don't" just put on the brakes and send her home. You'll be pissed off for about 3 hours and maybe have blue balls. Complain to your best friend if you need to blow off some steam. But don't let the genuine but modest problems inherent in dating (mixed signals, unsatisfied urges, cramps in your scrotum) obscure the much bigger problem (sometimes are women who are forced to have sex when they don't want to).

Just man up and deal with it, and proudly expect your fellow men to do the same.

 

If I prevent her from getting up and leaving... it's rape.

 

If she says "no" then rips my shirt off... it's not.

 

Just telling a guy to "man up" is like saying women are not capable of being responsible for themselves. I think they have the full ability to express their consent or lack thereof in a coherent manner.

 

It seems you believe women to be childlike creatures without any mental capacity for reason or accountability. I disagree with that assessment.

[WintersNightTraveler]

No normal person jumps into a full relationship with their rapist.

[...]

If I prevent her from getting up and leaving... it's rape.

 

If she says "no" then rips my shirt off... it's not.

 

Just telling a guy to "man up" is like saying women are not capable of being responsible for themselves.

 

I take back what I said about your theoretical concern for justice and well being.

[Cobra_X]

I take back what I said about your theoretical concern for justice and well being.

 

I'm glad.

 

Your "theory" is too draconian for any kind of use in reality. You even acknowledged that yourself to a degree.

[WintersNightTraveler]

I'm glad.

 

Your "theory" is too draconian for any kind of use in reality. You even acknowledged that yourself to a degree.

 

If you're getting at using physical evidence of trauma to establish resistance, that's just as problematic.

 

The telling part is that we aren't even talking about reality and all the he said she said difficulties that accompany it. We're talking about a theoretical situation where all she did was lie there and say no. And you still think she was "asking for it" just by virtue of being in his bed.

 

It's not a wise choice for her to be there but that doesn't mean one can stick one's weenie in after she says no without any worry for consequences.

 

What exactly are the draconian consequences of this theory by the way? 10% of men falsely accused of rape?

 

Oh wait, sorry no, that's just the extreme low end estimate of any legimate medical study that evaluates the lifetime prevalance of date rape. My bad.

[seren]

912458 - I hope you aren't reading some posts and feel that you shouldn't discuss this with a counsellor and that you won't be believed. It is how you feel about what happened that needs to be discussed with a counsellor who has experience of working with people who have been raped or SA. I used to see people who had been raped 30 yrs ago and hadn't talked about it, some of those who had been raped in marriage and had struggled with self esteem and identity.

 

Rape is never about sex, it is about exerting your will over another. Until anyone has been in a situation where they feel powerless to stop another, then it all just discussion and speculation. Rape is one of the most insidious things that can happen to anyone, everyone thinks they will fight back, will shout, but you don't. You lie there and take your self off somewhere else in your head (disassociation) you are so afraid you are almost paralysed by fear and if it is someone you know or are in a relationship with, you question yourself, you ask yourself if you had done this or that to encourage it. But somewhere at the back of your mind is a very small voice saying, I said no and until that realisation that saying no means you were raped sinks in, you continue to blame yourself.

[Cobra_X]

If you're getting at using physical evidence of trauma to establish resistance, that's just as problematic.

The telling part is that we aren't even talking about reality and all the he said she said difficulties that accompany it. We're talking about a theoretical situation where all she did was lie there and say no. And you still think she was "asking for it" just by virtue of being in his bed.

It's not a wise choice for her to be there but that doesn't mean one can stick one's weenie in after she says no without any worry for consequences.

What exactly are the draconian consequences of this theory by the way? 10% of men falsely accused of rape?

Oh wait, sorry no, that's just the extreme low end estimate of any legimate medical study that evaluates the lifetime prevalance of date rape. My bad.

 

Not at all.

 

OP posed a question that she already feels the answer to. Technically that is the reality we should be discussing.

 

I have no idea whether the word "no" came out or not, but I'm not given any indication of a physical attempt to dissuade this guy from making advances. I assume she would have mentioned that attempt had she made it... and if she states later that she tried to push him away/get up/leave... ect. I would be inclined to change my opinion.

 

She then entered into a relationship with him for whatever reason... thus enduring more unwanted sexual encounters.

 

In regards to your overall view of date rape. It's terrible... it should never occur and those guilty should be doing jail-time. However, putting all the blame on men is beyond stupid.

[O'Malley]

In regards to your overall view of date rape. It's terrible... it should never occur and those guilty should be doing jail-time. However, putting all the blame on men is beyond stupid.

 

Would you have sex with a woman who repeatedly said no and seemed passive, even if she didn't use physical force to resist? Or would you still feel uncomfortable with the dynamic of that situation?

 

I don't view it as blaming men, but placing responsibility on a person in that situation to make the healthiest decision regarding a partner's seeming lack of consent. The fact that she consented to a relationship does not mitigate what initially occurred here.

 

Gender is irrelevant in this -- she repeatedly said no when he removed her clothing, she did not respond happily or with enthusiasm, if he had stopped she did not act confused or start initiating. How could someone not pick up on that kind of disturbing reaction, and decide it was OK to have sex with that person?

 

For the rest, I can only agree with other posters that a counselor would be very beneficial for 912458. The situation that happened here is unfortunately not uncommon.

[Cobra_X]

Would you have sex with a woman who repeatedly said no and seemed passive, even if she didn't use physical force to resist? Or would you still feel uncomfortable with the dynamic of that situation?

I don't view it as blaming men, but placing responsibility on a person in that situation to make the healthiest decision regarding a partner's seeming lack of consent. The fact that she consented to a relationship does not mitigate what initially occurred here.

 

I've been in a variety of situations similar to that, both after dates AND while in long term relationships. Don't think this just happens after dates.

 

In my experience large amounts of foreplay and careful attention to body language usually puts this issue to rest.

 

If your asking have I ever had a woman tell me "no" then later tell me yes... it's happened many times. Have I ever raped anyone... nope.

 

Gender is irrelevant in this -- she repeatedly said no when he removed her clothing, she did not respond happily or with enthusiasm, if he had stopped she did not act confused or start initiating. How could someone not pick up on that kind of disturbing reaction, and decide it was OK to have sex with that person?

 

... Gender is irrelevant? That's a joke.

 

She did not describe her body language anywhere that I have seen... your making that up.

 

If you want a clear picture of what happened you have to ask the guy too.

 

The only clear issue is that OP needs professional counseling, because whether it was a courtroom definition of rape or not is pointless. She clearly feels violated in some way... and that needs to be addressed.

[blizzard]

912458 - I hope you aren't reading some posts and feel that you shouldn't discuss this with a counsellor and that you won't be believed. It is how you feel about what happened that needs to be discussed with a counsellor who has experience of working with people who have been raped or SA. I used to see people who had been raped 30 yrs ago and hadn't talked about it, some of those who had been raped in marriage and had struggled with self esteem and identity.

 

Rape is never about sex, it is about exerting your will over another. Until anyone has been in a situation where they feel powerless to stop another, then it all just discussion and speculation. Rape is one of the most insidious things that can happen to anyone, everyone thinks they will fight back, will shout, but you don't. You lie there and take your self off somewhere else in your head (disassociation) you are so afraid you are almost paralysed by fear and if it is someone you know or are in a relationship with, you question yourself, you ask yourself if you had done this or that to encourage it. But somewhere at the back of your mind is a very small voice saying, I said no and until that realisation that saying no means you were raped sinks in, you continue to blame yourself.

(((Thank you))) Seren...you understand.

[jamesum]

Hmmm, I didnt know that if a guy had a girl's virginity then that means he owns her. :rolleyes:

 

Virginity is so dumb and overrated. Treating virginity as a treasure is an inheritance from a time when a woman's worth was determined by the fact that she was a virgin or not.

[Stung]

Sounds good to me, we can commiserate over the women we've had to ask to leave!

 

Well, I am a woman, and mostly a straight one. But I've kicked men out of my bedroom, and will happily drink and commiserate over the foolishness and vagaries of human nature.

 

912458 - I hope you aren't reading some posts and feel that you shouldn't discuss this with a counsellor and that you won't be believed. It is how you feel about what happened that needs to be discussed with a counsellor who has experience of working with people who have been raped or SA. I used to see people who had been raped 30 yrs ago and hadn't talked about it, some of those who had been raped in marriage and had struggled with self esteem and identity.

 

Rape is never about sex, it is about exerting your will over another. Until anyone has been in a situation where they feel powerless to stop another, then it all just discussion and speculation. Rape is one of the most insidious things that can happen to anyone, everyone thinks they will fight back, will shout, but you don't. You lie there and take your self off somewhere else in your head (disassociation) you are so afraid you are almost paralysed by fear and if it is someone you know or are in a relationship with, you question yourself, you ask yourself if you had done this or that to encourage it. But somewhere at the back of your mind is a very small voice saying, I said no and until that realisation that saying no means you were raped sinks in, you continue to blame yourself.

 

Seren, you know. And I know too. It's too bad some of the guys on this thread are too interested in arguing semantics to let the morose reality in this post sink in.

 

I'm bowing out of this thread because it's kind of triggering to me and I don't want to get personally worked up over foolish comments on the internet. Let me just say that I'm very glad my stepdaughter takes Taekwondo and that we've been working hard to socialize her against the normal things most girls are taught, teaching her to speak up for herself and go for the throat if necessary, since apparently a depressing number of males still actually hear "no" and think "maybe."

 

OP, call the rape crisis center and seek understanding within yourself, not from strangers on the internet who don't give two farts about you.

Edited August 26, 2010 by Stung

[sweetjasmine]

If you jump out in front of a bus... you don't blame the bus for hitting you.

 

Nice analogy.

 

Hitting someone with a bus is an accident, and apparently so is raping someone.

 

"I just tripped and all of a sudden, before I knew it, my penis ended up inside her and I kept going until I was done even though she said no. It was totally an accident, and I just lost complete control. She shouldn't have gotten in my way. I totally didn't even see her there. She should be more careful next time."

[WalkInThePark]

The only clear issue is that OP needs professional counseling, because whether it was a courtroom definition of rape or not is pointless. She clearly feels violated in some way... and that needs to be addressed.

 

NO! It is not pointless whether it is a courtroom definition rape! It is clear that she has been raped so she needs to go to the police!!! Djeezes, why on earth should that guy remain untouchable? If he would have beaten her up, is all she would need to do is go to a councellor to come to terms with it?

 

Come on, that guy committed a crime. Does not matter if he used violence or not. Who says that he would not have used violence if she would have resisted physically?

[sweetjasmine]

NO! It is not pointless whether it is a courtroom definition rape! It is clear that she has been raped so she needs to go to the police!!! Djeezes, why on earth should that guy remain untouchable? If he would have beaten her up, is all she would need to do is go to a councellor to come to terms with it?

 

Come on, that guy committed a crime. Does not matter if he used violence or not. Who says that he would not have used violence if she would have resisted physically?

 

Actually, I agree with Cobra on this one.

 

Yes, it is pointless because even if she wasn't raped according to the law, she still feels violated. Even if a lawyer told her, "Nope, that wouldn't count as rape," she should still seek counseling to deal with what she's feeling.

 

And it's not about the guy being untouchable. This happened when OP was 15, judging by her other thread. I don't know how old she is or where she lives, but in some states, the statute of limitations for rape is only five years. So even if she had physical evidence and video of the event and would otherwise have a slam-dunk case, it might not even be possible for her to press charges.

 

As it stands, it happened maybe years ago. She has no evidence other than her word, and if she wanted to press charges, she would have to explain why she continued to date the guy. Her case wouldn't go anywhere, and the experience would probably make it even more difficult for her to heal.

[XDOR]

It was not Rape.

The guy took advantage of her, yes. He instisted until he got personal satisfaction, yes. Some men would do it, some wouldn't.

 

But if this is Rape, I would say about 30% of all women were raped when they lost their virginity, just because they said "no" and then let it happen.

 

To prove it, I ask all women here:

 

The very first time you had sex,

a) You planned it ahead of time, the two of you knew it would happen and agreed to it.

b) You were not sure, then you were kissing and making out, you tried to stop him, said "No" once or twice and then everything happened...

 

I'm pretty sure an important percentage will choose option (b).

[Cobra_X]

Nice analogy.

Hitting someone with a bus is an accident, and apparently so is raping someone.

"I just tripped and all of a sudden, before I knew it, my penis ended up inside her and I kept going until I was done even though she said no. It was totally an accident, and I just lost complete control. She shouldn't have gotten in my way. I totally didn't even see her there. She should be more careful next time."

 

Ok... good point. It's really, really hard to come up with an analogy that fits well.

 

It's sad but I am sure there are tons of guys out there who might be rapists and not even know it. A certain part of this is based on perception, especially with date rape since so often it doesn't involve rufees or physical violence.

[You Go Girl]

I am not going to join in on the debate over whether this was rape.

 

I would like to focus on the extreme passivity of the OP, especially how she continued the sexual relationship after the initial night.

 

OP--you need to take control of your life. If you don't, I can guarantee you that others will take control of it for you.

Realize that this is a dog eat dog world, or in better words, that people are used by others everyday for selfish satisfaction.

This is YOUR life. You are in control, and you need to start realizing that. Just like how you can decide whether to get out of bed each morning, you decide who touches you when and where.

You can make that decision passively by allowing others to use your body, or you can make the decision to only let others touch you when you WANT to be touched.

Turn on the tv for five minutes, and flip channels every few seconds. You are going to see millions of people living life in many different ways. Each one of those people decides which life they choose to live. You have just as many choices as you see lives on the tv channels. What do you want to do with your life? Your life is a blank canvas...you decide how it is painted. You can either hold the paint brush and paint it yourself, or you can hand the paint brush to others and let them paint your life story. Obviously, it would be a much better life to paint it yourself.

[CailinPig]

Oh my God, XDOR, I sincerely hope you're joking,assuming that for many women, they said no during their first time and it happened anyway. Jesus Christ, that's rape. What kind of weirdo's are there out there who think that's ok???

 

For the record, no my first time was not planned, but it was with a guy I was going out with, and we both decided to go ahead and do it.

[Untouchable_Fire]

I am not going to join in on the debate over whether this was rape.

 

I agree... this situation sounds messed up, and fixing it will be complex.

 

Professional help should be the goal.

[linwood]

ok so if you were close to a guy and youve done a few things like kissing with him, and one day he asked you to hang out. You're used to just being eachothers company but he starts kissing you. You go along because it a kiss. But then he starts undressing you. You keep telling him no and youre not ready for it but before you know it hes inside. your virginity is gone. You hate the fact that it is gone to someone and you believed it was supposed to be for ONE person. So you stick with the person because you have to try to make it work. so you have sex even when you dont want to just to try and make it work until your married. later on the relationship doesnt work. Is it still sexual assault? He shouldnt have done it in the first place...

 

No, because it didn`t happen like that.

 

"Before you know it he`s inside you"?

 

How does that even happen?

 

What you have here is a case of you not making your position absolutely clear and him pushing too far.

 

He won because you were weak.

 

Now you have regrets and want someone to blame other than yourself.

[pureinheart]

If you say no, and someone goes ahead anyway, it's rape.

 

Totally, absolutely, beyond any shadow of a doubt agree...OP, please get some help, in the form of councelling...anything...I am so very sorry...

[InceptorsRule]

OP, your explanation of the reason why you decided to enter into a relationship with your rapist, post-rape, doesn't strike me as very persuasive.

[wheelwright]

Wrong.

 

If she says 'a weak no', a good man stops then and there, game over, pants back on, time for a cold shower and maybe a walk to burn off some frustration. A rapist keeps pushing forward. There are all kinds of reasons why a woman's cry might seem weak, why she might just 'lie there', and those can include inebriation, fear, shock--if a woman says no, that's the line being drawn. Everything should stop right there. The only exception to this is if it's some kind of rape fantasy role play with everything discussed and agreed to beforehand and some other safe word established besides 'no'.

 

Agreeing with all the other posters, it sounds like the first incident was rape, although the subsequent times are a grey area and legally, if not emotionally, consensual. I hope you are away from the man and out of the 'relationship', now. Please do call a rape crisis center, as they can advise you much better than we can.

 

I had this happen to me one time. I didn't think it was rape, though I felt more raped than anything else. It's interesting what you say about the woman being weak (which I was - and clearly obvious to me and him) and saying no (which I did several times during the encounter - actually my words were "I don't want to do this" with no element of that sexing it up involved).

 

It has meant I want nothing to do with the person in question and he has my disregard. There is no integrity in a person who behaves like this. At least not at that time.