You Go Girl Posted August 22, 2010 Posted August 22, 2010 I believe Mark is in complete denial. The thought of his best friend and wife is just too horrifying.
Bryanp Posted August 22, 2010 Posted August 22, 2010 All right Julian. If the roles were reversed wouldn't you wish to know all of the details so you could determine whether or not you wished to remain in the relationship? My guess is that you do not wish to suffer any consequences for your actions. How can you justify not telling Mark the truth? The reality is that you would rather keep Mark in the dark than look bad in front of him and Helen. I am sorry Julian but your continued reluctance to tell Mark the truth shows that you are not true friend to him at all. How sad that you wish to remain friends with Mark while withholding the full truth from him and continuing to make him look like a complete fool. You would rather have a friendship with Mark based on deceit rather than honesty. A mature person would tell him the truth and I think you know this.
Distant78 Posted August 22, 2010 Posted August 22, 2010 All right Julian. If the roles were reversed wouldn't you wish to know all of the details so you could determine whether or not you wished to remain in the relationship? My guess is that you do not wish to suffer any consequences for your actions. How can you justify not telling Mark the truth? The reality is that you would rather keep Mark in the dark than look bad in front of him and Helen. I am sorry Julian but your continued reluctance to tell Mark the truth shows that you are not true friend to him at all. How sad that you wish to remain friends with Mark while withholding the full truth from him and continuing to make him look like a complete fool. You would rather have a friendship with Mark based on deceit rather than honesty. A mature person would tell him the truth and I think you know this. I guess we should've never been so surprised. Its typical for WSs and OW/OM to not say anything. But you're right, if this guy is willing to still be friends with Mark, he should tell what happened (even though I personally feel the relationship has been destroyed).
Author Julian45 Posted August 22, 2010 Author Posted August 22, 2010 All right Julian. If the roles were reversed wouldn't you wish to know all of the details so you could determine whether or not you wished to remain in the relationship? My guess is that you do not wish to suffer any consequences for your actions. How can you justify not telling Mark the truth? The reality is that you would rather keep Mark in the dark than look bad in front of him and Helen. I am sorry Julian but your continued reluctance to tell Mark the truth shows that you are not true friend to him at all. How sad that you wish to remain friends with Mark while withholding the full truth from him and continuing to make him look like a complete fool. You would rather have a friendship with Mark based on deceit rather than honesty. A mature person would tell him the truth and I think you know this. Bryanp, I have gone over this in my head countless times. Mark knows that Helen and I have slept together on more than one occasion. In my mid 40s I consider myself to be reasonable mature. I may change my mind and tell Mark but here are some of the reasons why I have chossen not to at present. Since Mark already knows giving him a blow by blow account would be like rubbing his nose in it. I don't thiink that will help. Mark knows we had sex more than once, how would giving him all the sordid details help him to decide how to proceed since he already knows and has decided to stay with Helen? I promised Helen that I would not tell him. If I told him I think it could be very destructive for his relationship with Helen. What are the benefits of giving Mark a full account of the goings on? I cannot see how he or Helen would benefit. At times I feel like 'coming clean' with Mark. While that act of openness might help me to clear my conscience I think it wouldn't help Mark in any way. Please explain why you think telling all would help Mark and Helen bearing in mind that he knows we have slept together and has elected to stay with her.
Author Julian45 Posted August 22, 2010 Author Posted August 22, 2010 I guess we should've never been so surprised. Its typical for WSs and OW/OM to not say anything. But you're right, if this guy is willing to still be friends with Mark, he should tell what happened (even though I personally feel the relationship has been destroyed). Distant, I don't understand what OW/OM WSs mean. Would you enlighten me please?
Author Julian45 Posted August 22, 2010 Author Posted August 22, 2010 Distant additionally I have sought advice on this question from numerous people, the vast majority have said they believe it is a bad idea and potentially very destuctive for Mark and Helen.
Distant78 Posted August 22, 2010 Posted August 22, 2010 Distant additionally I have sought advice on this question from numerous people, the vast majority have said they believe it is a bad idea and potentially very destuctive for Mark and Helen. And out of those numerous people, how many were cheaters, former cheaters, and betrayed spouses in denial?
Author Julian45 Posted August 22, 2010 Author Posted August 22, 2010 I guess we should've never been so surprised. Its typical for WSs and OW/OM to not say anything. But you're right, if this guy is willing to still be friends with Mark, he should tell what happened (even though I personally feel the relationship has been destroyed). The friendship between Mark and I is very much intact. Mark and Helen are getting along just fine at the moment. I'm sure Helen is doing all she can to help their relationship improve further. Overcoming this must be difficult enough for Mark and Helen without me doing something that could be very destructive for them. If at some stage I feel very strongly that telling Mark all the details would benefit Helen and Mark's relationship I would tell all in a heartbeat. Please explain how you think he will benefit and how you think their relationship will benefit, thanks. PS. Could you avoid the use of abbreviations since I'm not familiar with them.
Author Julian45 Posted August 22, 2010 Author Posted August 22, 2010 And out of those numerous people, how many were cheaters, former cheaters, and betrayed spouses in denial? I have no idea, none of those things would be any of my business. They didn't offer that information and I didn't ask. Please explain why you think telling all would help them. I'm struggling to see how telling all would help them. I have never had to deal with a situation like this before. My emotions are running high at the moment and I feel vulnerable to making poor choices for the wrong reasons. If you can convince me that telling all would really benefit them then I might do just that. This isn't an easy place to be, i am confused about a lot of things and very interested in hearing any helpful input. Thanks
Distant78 Posted August 22, 2010 Posted August 22, 2010 (edited) The friendship between Mark and I is very much intact. Mark and Helen are getting along just fine at the moment. I'm sure Helen is doing all she can to help their relationship improve further. Overcoming this must be difficult enough for Mark and Helen without me doing something that could be very destructive for them. If at some stage I feel very strongly that telling Mark all the details would benefit Helen and Mark's relationship I would tell all in a heartbeat. Please explain how you think he will benefit and how you think their relationship will benefit, thanks. PS. Could you avoid the use of abbreviations since I'm not familiar with them. Because if you really plan on even somehow maintaining a relationship with Mark, you need to tell him or otherwise, it will be based upon dishonesty. What if Mark did something to you that was a dealbreaker for your relationship with him, and you knew or either suspected he did it or know about whatever bad happened or was stolen from you? How would you feel? You just can't say that you will do anything for your best friend and commit something so cruel, then hide about it. If you don't tell him sooner or later, the guilt will eat you alive. It may not phase you now, but later on in life you will never eat, sleep, or be able to do anything normally because it weighs on your mind so heavily, and you will die knowing that you never told your best friend what you did to him. That is why. You know this. Relationships never survive based on dishonesty. Even if he says he doesn't want to know, you should find some way that'll grab his attention to let him know what you did to him. You've known the guy for a number of years so i'm sure that you know what makes him tick and whatnot. Your talking to me, so obviously your not alone without help. If you want I can give you my email and I can PM you on how to overcome this. Edited August 22, 2010 by Distant78
2sunny Posted August 22, 2010 Posted August 22, 2010 The friendship between Mark and I is very much intact. Mark and Helen are getting along just fine at the moment. I'm sure Helen is doing all she can to help their relationship improve further. Overcoming this must be difficult enough for Mark and Helen without me doing something that could be very destructive for them. If at some stage I feel very strongly that telling Mark all the details would benefit Helen and Mark's relationship I would tell all in a heartbeat. Please explain how you think he will benefit and how you think their relationship will benefit, thanks. PS. Could you avoid the use of abbreviations since I'm not familiar with them. the benefit for THEM is that then they understand where there relationship is vulnerable. Helen becomes intimately close to a man outside her relationship with Mark and she is vulnerable to cheat. you are providing the evidence of that for him. THAT is what Mark needs to know. you happened to be the one she cheated with. own your part in it - if you are Mark's friend you will be honest so he can understand where their R failed and what THEY need to improve upon in order for this to never happen again - with you or anyone else. how they do that is up to THEM, not you. for what you do - be honest. then apologize for your part in it... then DO actions that show that you never intend to make the same error again. in this case your amends may look like: you never see her again, or you are never alone with her ever again, AND you NEVER step into any conversation with either one of them that may potentially cause harm to either one... this includes actively listening to them belly ache about the other. your actions and words may never cause suspicion again moving forward after you are honest with Mark. IF he asks - you never see Helen again. IF you intend to see Helen for selfish reasons - you should consider never seeing her again. only see her when you feel completely neutral about her. FYI acronyms M = married or Marriage R = relationship A= affair S= separated D= divorced OW/OM = other woman/other man (You) WS = wandering spouse (Helen) BS = betrayed spouse (Mark) MM/MW = married man/married woman
Silly_Girl Posted August 22, 2010 Posted August 22, 2010 It's pretty selfish to confess to something to ease one's own conscience only. If J is sure Mark is aware then he should let Mark conduct his life as he sees fit and stay the hell away from Helen.
Distant78 Posted August 22, 2010 Posted August 22, 2010 It's pretty selfish to confess to something to ease one's own conscience only. No it's not. In the process of confessing to something to ease that other person's conscience, you'll be easing your own also.
2sunny Posted August 22, 2010 Posted August 22, 2010 let's talk about you for a minute... what makes YOU the kind of man that willingly takes part in inappropriate behavior with your best friends girl? what does that say about YOU? and what changes are YOU willing to make to be sure YOU are no longer THAT MAN? how can Mark believe you are his friend when your actions said otherwise? what changes in YOURSELF (and your character) are you willing to make to be sure you aren't THAT man in the future? if you can't be certain of solid evidence of change - then there is no reason for Mark to believe a word you say to him. THIS is the part YOU CAN do something about... what does that look like for you?
Author Julian45 Posted August 22, 2010 Author Posted August 22, 2010 Because if you really plan on even somehow maintaining a relationship with Mark, you need to tell him or otherwise, it will be based upon dishonesty. What if Mark did something to you that was a dealbreaker for your relationship with him, and you knew or either suspected he did it or know about whatever bad happened or was stolen from you? How would you feel? You just can't say that you will do anything for your best friend and commit something so cruel, then hide about it. If you don't tell him sooner or later, the guilt will eat you alive. It may not phase you now, but later on in life you will never eat, sleep, or be able to do anything normally because it weighs on your mind so heavily, and you will die knowing that you never told your best friend what you did to him. That is why. You know this. Relationships never survive based on dishonesty. Even if he says he doesn't want to know, you should find some way that'll grab his attention to let him know what you did to him. You've known the guy for a number of years so i'm sure that you know what makes him tick and whatnot. Your talking to me, so obviously your not alone without help. If you want I can give you my email and I can PM you on how to overcome this. At some point in the future I might tell all, right now I don't want to interfere with the recovery of their relationship. Personally I can't help thinking that telling all would be like throwing a bomb into their living room. I would hate to do anything further that would harm their relationship.
Silly_Girl Posted August 22, 2010 Posted August 22, 2010 No it's not. In the process of confessing to something to ease that other person's conscience, you'll be easing your own also. Distant, Julian has said he's sure Mark knows. I didn't see how forcing some kind of truth showdown to ease Julian's conscience could help Mark further. Your reply to me indicates I've misunderstood somewhere as you talk of TWO peoples' conscience. Where did I trip up? Thanks.
Author Julian45 Posted August 22, 2010 Author Posted August 22, 2010 Distant, Julian has said he's sure Mark knows. I didn't see how forcing some kind of truth showdown to ease Julian's conscience could help Mark further. Your reply to me indicates I've misunderstood somewhere as you talk of TWO peoples' conscience. Where did I trip up? Thanks. Silly, Mark does know that we slept together a few times. I don't think a truth showdown will help him or her. I would like to ease my conscience but don't think telling all would help Mark.
2sunny Posted August 22, 2010 Posted August 22, 2010 so if you're not willing to tell him what your part in it was - then do an amends to him by your actions... NEVER see Helen again. THAT would show him that you value him as a friend and aren't willing to put their relationship at risk. THAT is the way YOU can participate and change it all. can you do that?
Distant78 Posted August 22, 2010 Posted August 22, 2010 Distant, Julian has said he's sure Mark knows. I didn't see how forcing some kind of truth showdown to ease Julian's conscience could help Mark further. He's said he's sure, that doesn't mean completely or that Mark actually knows. He probably suspects, but he doesn't know fully. Plus, Mark doesn't actually know every detail (how far, how frequent was it, did it stop, etc). It will ease Mark's conscience because he, as the betrayed, will know who he's dealing with, and he will know that the two people who supposedly care about him, did him wrong. It will also give him a chance to decide whether he should cut off Helen and/or Julian all together.
Bryanp Posted August 22, 2010 Posted August 22, 2010 O.K. Julian. From your previous posts it was unclear if Mark knew that you actually had sex with Helen a couple of times. Since you said that he actually knows that you slept with her a couple of times, I would therefore accept his friendship and let it be. I was under the impression he did not know for sure how far Helen and you actually went. I have to admit it seems strange that he would leave his girlfriend alone late at night with another guy place and you and Helen were both drunk. Surely he must have known the chances were strong that something could happen. Do you think he actually wanted this to happen?
Distant78 Posted August 22, 2010 Posted August 22, 2010 Silly, Mark does know that we slept together a few times. I don't think a truth showdown will help him or her. I would like to ease my conscience but don't think telling all would help Mark. How do you know that Mark knows? Has he told you that he knew you guys had sex after he dropped off Helen at your place? If so, like 2sunny said, you should just stay away from Helen and Mark forever. Maintain NC with them forever. That is the least you can do for Helen, Mark, and yourself.
2sunny Posted August 22, 2010 Posted August 22, 2010 How do you know that Mark knows? Has he told you that he knew you guys had sex after he dropped off Helen at your place? If so, like 2sunny said, you should just stay away from Helen and Mark forever. Maintain NC with them forever. That is the least you can do for Helen, Mark, and yourself. Surely he must have known the chances were strong that something could happen. Do you think he actually wanted this to happen? i'm sure after 10+ years Mark trusted him... see where things get sideways when you think you know two people very well and trust that they will not betray you? you may THINK he knows - but denial is very powerful when one needs to hold on to the delusion... he MAY not know at all - he may still be trusting you... that is another reason to tell your truth. he needs to know what actually happened - so he can decide IF he wants to move forward with a woman who will betray him. that is for him to decide. how can he decide IF he doesn't know your truth? how can he trust you again? trust is EARNED - what are you going to DO (or not do) to earn his trust back? by the way - these are all the same things he should also be discussing with Helen.
Distant78 Posted August 22, 2010 Posted August 22, 2010 I have to admit it seems strange that he would leave his girlfriend alone late at night with another guy place and you and Helen were both drunk. Surely he must have known the chances were strong that something could happen. Do you think he actually wanted this to happen? Thats what i've been pondering on. I wonder if he already knows, why is it he's accepting it so easily? Is it denial or he probably wanted it to happen?
2sunny Posted August 22, 2010 Posted August 22, 2010 Thats what i've been pondering on. I wonder if he already knows, why is it he's accepting it so easily? Is it denial or he probably wanted it to happen? some people trust others and some people are doormats... Mark may be both?
2sunny Posted August 22, 2010 Posted August 22, 2010 by being selfish and self serving with your need to see her again - you will only cause more hurt and harm to all involved. i know it's not what you wanted to hear - but are you willing to do that for the fact that you say Mark is your friend - and we don't intentionally try to cause more harm to friends?
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