I don't have to get over it, I'm not wrong. Betrayed & Getting Divorced

[SadGuest]

I have read all the topics about porn and all the men and many of the women defend it. But porn is destructive. I don't care if everyone thinks its okay and your arguments defending it sound reasonable, but the fact is that if someone is hurt by it, if they perceive it as a betrayal--that is to say that their feelings are that of someone who has been betrayed, then porn is a betrayal.

 

I don't need a reply to this, I'm not asking a question or asking for opinions. I'm posting my POV and experience. I also do not have to defend myself or my feelings.

 

My husband betrayed me with porn. After promises not to view porn. After claiming he understood that I hate it and feel disrespected. After telling him that knowing he views porn makes sex with him feel dirty, and that I don't like sex with him knowing that he views porn, and him saying he understands and RESPECTS my feelings, after telling me that he KNOWS that my feelings are not wrong or prudish or ‘old-fashioned’, and after he promised not to view porn anymore. I just found bondage porn and fetish porn on the computer. I found his hidden passwords. I was looking for something else when I saw where he had it hidden.

 

He paid for subscriptions to some porn sites. He tried to justify it to me by saying that he loved me and did not want to hurt me and that the porn he was ‘using’ was violent and about control, not about sex and because he loved me, he could not ‘use’ me that way. I even told him that I was quite open to bondage and role-play and trying new things and that after all these years I certainly trusted him enough to be sub and that even some pain could enhance the sexual experience. He said he knew that I would try things and that he appreciated that, but his fantasies are all about control and inflicting pain and humiliation on women and that is what he gets off to and he could not enjoy it because it is ME – the woman he loves and he wants our love-making to be more special and to be about us and not about control. It all sounds so sweet and reasonable, doesn’t it? It is not. Not to me. He refuses to share part of his life. He lied about it. He claims to understand my feelings but he continues to break promises to me.

We don’t have sex that often. To me, it’s like wasting an erection. He could be with me and we could be pleasing each other, but he would rather view this porn and masturbate. That is a slap in my face and a betrayal. It has torn me apart and proved to me that he does not truly care about my feelings.

 

Sex with him feels dirty now, and less satisfying to me. He likes to humiliate women as a form of control, but he claims he loves me too much to do that to me. Well, he has succeeded in doing that to me anyway. I feel dirty and humiliated with him now. All because he uses porn to satisfy himself after promising me not to. I have been betrayed. For all the women out there who understand what I’m talking about -- you are not alone or wrong in your feelings. For those who defend porn and tell the rest of us that every man does it – please discuss it with your partners to make sure they accept it and do not feel betrayed by it, otherwise you will only be hurting those you claim to love—whether you understand their (our) feelings or not.

 

You can tell me to get over it if you want--but remember something. If your wife or your girlfriend whom you say you love, tells you that porn hurts her and you continue to view it-you are blatantly and deliberately hurting her because of your own selfishness and that does not in any way, shape, or form, excuse or justify porn, or make your wife or girl friend wrong somehow, or uptight about it. It’s a lie and a deception and it cheapens sex and makes it dirty and shameful for many people.

 

We are getting a divorce because of this. I won’t tolerate it and believe me, when I discussed it with the attorney and told him why I was seeking a divorce he told me about many other cases of divorce because of porn and its treated pretty much the same way any infidelity is treated. My husband cheated on me with porn and the cheater almost always loses big in the settlement.

[jester]

Porn as the "other woman." I sense a double betrayal. First, he repeatedly broke his promises to you that he would stop watching and masturbating to porn. That's the first betrayal.

 

Second, he cheated on you by masturbating to porn. That's the second betrayal.

 

Your husband, when forced to choose, elected his porn habit over you.

 

Your strong feelings of rejection and betrayal are legitimate.

 

I would leave, too.

[BabyGirl]

I agree with you somewhat......anything can cause problems in a marriage when the spouses don't agree with each other. I'm sorry it couldn't be worked out...best of luck.

[UCFKevin]

I don't need a reply to this, I'm not asking a question or asking for opinions. I'm posting my POV and experience. I also do not have to defend myself or my feelings.

 

That doesn't exactly shout out "READ ME!"

 

But nevertheless...here I go.

 

To me, it’s like wasting an erection. He could be with me and we could be pleasing each other, but he would rather view this porn and masturbate. That is a slap in my face and a betrayal.

 

I don't think you understand the point of male masturbation. Having sex with a woman is NOT as quick and easy as just yanking it. We don't have to worry about anyone else getting off first, we don't have to worry about catching the person in the right mood at the right time, we don't have to prolong anything, we just zip down, go at it and that's it, easy, quick, and that's very appealing some times.

 

For those who defend porn and tell the rest of us that every man does it – please discuss it with your partners to make sure they accept it and do not feel betrayed by it, otherwise you will only be hurting those you claim to love—whether you understand their (our) feelings or not

 

This is, I think, the best advice anyone can give regarding porn.

 

We are getting a divorce because of this. I won’t tolerate it and believe me, when I discussed it with the attorney and told him why I was seeking a divorce he told me about many other cases of divorce because of porn and its treated pretty much the same way any infidelity is treated. My husband cheated on me with porn and the cheater almost always loses big in the settlement.

 

So, what, does that make YOU right? Does that make porn evil and make your husband a deplorable human being? This sounds a little holier than thou.

[jmargel]

You sound set on divorcing him, so what do you want our opinions for? You just want re-assurance that it's ok? Have you tried going to a marriage councilor? Not sure how long you've been married (sounds like quite awhile) but that's a rather harsh step to take.

 

Have there been other problems in the relationship? If everything else was great and this was the only problem, I would probably step up to say you might want to reconsider.

 

Yes he lied to you and that is probably the biggest part of this. He did it because he didn't want to hurt you, and this is something he enjoys. It is normal for a guy to think like he does, as long as he knows where the boundaries are. I am into BDSM with my fiancee, and its not all about inflicting pain on someone. Its about respect for each other & trust. When two people get into it, you get into a 'zone' almost like a high. There is quite a bit of good literature on this. This has been going on for decades, its just not talked about much.

 

Why does it make you feel dirty? Because you feel like you have to compete against his porn? How often is he doing this? There's a difference between using porn in a positive way and an addiction when it starts to affect your life in a negative way.

 

Also you can't talk to your lawyer about the divorce in that way, he's in it for the money. I think with the right amount of communication and a better understanding of each others feelings and wants you could work this out. Porn can actually bring two people closer together, there is nothing wrong with you renting porn with some hot guys on it & watching it with your husband. Its not disrespecting him, its just human nature to find other things attractive.

[dyermaker]

For those who defend porn and tell the rest of us that every man does it – please discuss it with your partners to make sure they accept it and do not feel betrayed by it, otherwise you will only be hurting those you claim to love—whether you understand their (our) feelings or not

 

Great advice. I would hate to marry someone who thinks they own my penis.

 

He said he knew that I would try things and that he appreciated that, but his fantasies are all about control and inflicting pain and humiliation on women and that is what he gets off to and he could not enjoy it because it is ME – the woman he loves and he wants our love-making to be more special and to be about us and not about control.

 

I must be evil, because that makes perfect sense to me.

[SadGuest]

Originally posted by UCFKevin

I don't think you understand the point of male masturbation. Having sex with a woman is NOT as quick and easy as just yanking it. We don't have to worry about anyone else getting off first, we don't have to worry about catching the person in the right mood at the right time, we don't have to prolong anything, we just zip down, go at it and that's it, easy, quick, and that's very appealing some times.

I most certainly do understand the 'point' of masturbation -- for anyone. Not having to be concerned at all about another persons needs, wants, or feelings. I never said I was against masturbation. For some reason people tend to read threads about porn and masturbation and tie the two together. People can masturbate without porn. My husband and I have discussed this too. Something that he finds so shameful that he must hide it from me is something he should not be doing. THAT is the betrayal. If he would betray me about this -- how can I trust him about anything else? Staunch defenders of porn seem to not think about this and/or tend to dismiss their partner's feelings and opinions because they don't agree with them--- in other words, they don't follow their own advice about being open-minded about other peoples feelings.

 

This is, I think, the best advice anyone can give regarding porn.

Thanks. I think it only fair to communicate and AGREE on something so vitally important and emotional. If both partners agree on this, then there is no betrayal. If they don't and can't agree or compromise then there is almost assuredly a lot of trouble ahead.

 

So, what, does that make YOU right? Does that make porn evil and make your husband a deplorable human being? This sounds a little holier than thou.

In my case, yes it does make me right and him wrong. He LIED. He BETRAYED me by breaking promises and disrespecting me. His actions are deplorable. I hope that no one ever lies to you about something that has a profound effect on your beliefs and feelings. I couldn't be more hurt by this and that was communicated to him many times, and still he continues.

[midori]

I can only agree with Jester's view if the subject of porn was discussed before the marriage, and the husband had given the wife the impression that he was not into porn. Otherwise, it's not a betrayal, it's one spouse trying to impose their will on the other, who, granted, tried or at least pretended to go along with the new decree. The husband's failure to comply with the no-porn proclamation does not, in my view, constitute a betrayal, since it wasn't part of the original marital bargain.

 

It seems to me that this is something to discuss honestly before getting married. If one's views are intractable, and important enough to become a deal-breaker, it should be discussed before-hand. To not do so is irresponsible.

 

I think it's reasonable to expect that a woman who's got a problem with porn should be confident enough in herself to voice her opinion to her prospective husband, rather than assuming (often, as we see, wrongly) that he agrees with her. Or that even if he doesn't, his love for her will trump his liking of porn. I think a lot of women know on some level that their partners have used porn and might still, but some have the strange idea that "love" and "commitment" will iron out any undesirable behaviors. And if that doesn't happen, they feel that they're not loved or have sufficient commitment from their partners.

 

We've heard many passionate condemnations of porn, and I'm not going to tell anyone that they need to change their views about it. But those who feel strongly about the subject should be responsible enough to make their views clear before getting into a committed relationship. You might assume that your view of porn is the respectable default view that is shared by the majority of men and women, but just reading the relevant threads on this site proves that that is not the case.

[UCFKevin]

The whole lying thing is pretty rotten, yes, but divorce?

 

I hate to say this, but if you're willing to end it all over lying about porn, I have to question how much love was in this relationship to begin with.

[jmargel]

Thanks. I think it only fair to communicate and AGREE on something so vitally important and emotional. If both partners agree on this, then there is no betrayal. If they don't and can't agree or compromise then there is almost assuredly a lot of trouble ahead.

 

Agree? Its basically your way or the highway. Not much communication going on when you won't even try marriage counciling or to try to work this out, huh? Basically you are hurt but also being very stubborn. What is this going to solve with this divorce? Will this make you happy? That you are 'right'? When does the anger subside enough to be willing to talk this out? Do you put this much up of a fight about everything?

 

Just try taking a step back and stop thinking about yourself. You are missing the whole point why you married this guy and agreed to spend the rest of your life with him. He didn't cheat on you, there is a HUGE difference. Yes you have a right to feel betrayed, but guess what. Its not the end of the world. Betrayal is not a black & white issue. Depending on the circumstances and the situation. It also sounds like you put your foot down and was acting like his mother on what he can & can't do. People change over time, and very happily married couples who've been married for years will try things like swinging, etc.. You have to learn to accept some change with your mate and comprimise.

 

In my case, yes it does make me right and him wrong. He LIED. He BETRAYED me by breaking promises and disrespecting me. His actions are deplorable. I hope that no one ever lies to you about something that has a profound effect on your beliefs and feelings. I couldn't be more hurt by this and that was communicated to him many times, and still he continues

 

You make it seem like he slaughtered a bunch of kittens. Ever figure out WHY he lied to you? Maybe because he was afraid of what you would do (which is what you are doing now)?. His actions are deplorable.. Hmm.. And yours isn't by just giving up so fast? What is your belief? That porn is evil? You have to understand men in general, we are attractive to visual things. We are more stimulated by this. Him saying that he didnt want to inflict pain because he loves you shows you how much he cares about you. It takes a different kind of mindset to inflict pain on a mate when you are in BDSM. I know, because I do it. And its only with her wanting it.

 

If your pride is that important to you then divorce. But I can guarantee in the end this will not make you feel any better. Instead of running away from the problem, confront it and conquer it. If you find a guy who isn't into porn, well then more power to ya. I honestly don't think he exists.

[SadGuest]

Originally posted by jmargel

You sound set on divorcing him, so what do you want our opinions for?

I said I didn't need any opinions nor was I asking questions. I posted my feelings only. I don't require or desire affirmations or support. Others who have posed about porn may be able to see another person with similar thoughts and feel less alone.

 

You just want re-assurance that it's ok? Have you tried going to a marriage councilor? Not sure how long you've been married (sounds like quite awhile) but that's a rather harsh step to take.

Divorce is harsh - but porn was a deal-breaker and my husband knew that going in to the marriage. He ignored it. We've been married almost 20 years.

 

Have there been other problems in the relationship? If everything else was great and this was the only problem, I would probably step up to say you might want to reconsider.

No other major problems but this one and this is not an isolated incident. We've fought over this many times in the marriage. This last time was it.

 

Yes he lied to you and that is probably the biggest part of this. He did it because he didn't want to hurt you, and this is something he enjoys.

I know he didn't want to hurt me. But he DID hurt me. He hurt me by lying and betraying my feelings. He put his porn use before me. That does not mean I'm jealous of the porn - it means I'm not going to tolerate his selfish behavior and his disrespect of my feelings. Now he will be free to enjoy it all he wants. He claimed he understood that.

 

It is normal for a guy to think like he does, as long as he knows where the boundaries are.

The boundaries were that he would not view porn. Porn is a totally different issue from masturbation. He agreed to that a long time ago. Just as we agreed to be honest with each other and to not cheat on each other, and to respect each others feelings. After the fourth or fifth time he betrayed me with porn, (and yes we did go to counseling for a while) I even suggested we rent some porn movies together and view them together and experiment and play a bit. He said he was to embarassed.

 

I am into BDSM with my fiancee, and its not all about inflicting pain on someone. Its about respect for each other & trust. When two people get into it, you get into a 'zone' almost like a high. There is quite a bit of good literature on this. This has been going on for decades, its just not talked about much.

It's been practiced for eons. I wanted to try this and we read about it, but he was too afraid because he might hurt me, even with control words and going along carefully. Since he was uncomfortable with the idea I dropped it -- out of respect for his feelings! How ironic is that! Instead of respecting my feelings he chose to deceive me knowing that would hurt me.

 

Why does it make you feel dirty? Because you feel like you have to compete against his porn? How often is he doing this? There's a difference between using porn in a positive way and an addiction when it starts to affect your life in a negative way.

It does not matter why it makes me feel the way I do. The reason does not cancel out the feeling. My emotions are true and normal and do not need justification. It does make me feel that way and that is all that is important. No, I do not feel that I am competing against porn. That is apples and oranges. I am a real woman, with feelings and opinions and beliefs of my own. I am not some two-dimensional portrayal of sex for sex sake. There is no comparison or competition. How often? One time after promising not to is one time too many and that is all that matters. As for positive use of porn - I addressed that earlier when I said I wanted to share it with him. As for it being an addiction--maybe it is. But he will not get help and the counseling we went through earlier obviously did not help him. I won't bend on this issue. If he were addicted to cocain or some other drug and refused to stop using I would also leave him. There are some things that I will not tolerate and disrespect and betrayal in any form (porn, infidelity, putting others feelings before mine, etc.) are two of them.

 

Also you can't talk to your lawyer about the divorce in that way, he's in it for the money.

Not in this case. The lawyer is someone I know and trust and I know exactly how much they will get. Look at some of the prior divorces in which porn was cited as the trigger or cause. If porn use was agreed upon in the marriage it would not be a factor in 'cheating' but in my case it is and the courts will see it that way.

 

I think with the right amount of communication and a better understanding of each others feelings and wants you could work this out.

No. Not a chance. We understand each other perfectly and we have communicated our feelings on this matter thoroughly.

 

Porn can actually bring two people closer together, there is nothing wrong with you renting porn with some hot guys on it & watching it with your husband. Its not disrespecting him, its just human nature to find other things attractive.

I have addressed this earlier. I was willing, he was not because he felt uncomfortable about it. He thought I might be comparing his body and technique with the man on the screen. Even after I explained I would not, he still felt that way. I was fine with that and would not disrespect him this way. There is nothing wrong with it if both parties agree. But there is a LOT wrong with it if it hurts one person.

[SadGuest]

Originally posted by jmargel

Agree? Its basically your way or the highway. Not much communication going on when you won't even try marriage counciling or to try to work this out, huh? Basically you are hurt but also being very stubborn. What is this going to solve with this divorce? Will this make you happy? That you are 'right'? When does the anger subside enough to be willing to talk this out? Do you put this much up of a fight about everything?

 

Just try taking a step back and stop thinking about yourself. You are missing the whole point why you married this guy and agreed to spend the rest of your life with him. He didn't cheat on you, there is a HUGE difference. Yes you have a right to feel betrayed, but guess what. Its not the end of the world. Betrayal is not a black & white issue. Depending on the circumstances and the situation. It also sounds like you put your foot down and was acting like his mother on what he can & can't do. People change over time, and very happily married couples who've been married for years will try things like swinging, etc.. You have to learn to accept some change with your mate and comprimise.

 

 

 

You make it seem like he slaughtered a bunch of kittens. Ever figure out WHY he lied to you? Maybe because he was afraid of what you would do (which is what you are doing now)?. His actions are deplorable.. Hmm.. And yours isn't by just giving up so fast? What is your belief? That porn is evil? You have to understand men in general, we are attractive to visual things. We are more stimulated by this. Him saying that he didnt want to inflict pain because he loves you shows you how much he cares about you. It takes a different kind of mindset to inflict pain on a mate when you are in BDSM. I know, because I do it. And its only with her wanting it.

 

If your pride is that important to you then divorce. But I can guarantee in the end this will not make you feel any better. Instead of running away from the problem, confront it and conquer it. If you find a guy who isn't into porn, well then more power to ya. I honestly don't think he exists.

 

It is YOU who does not understand. Try - please try - to separate PORN and MASTURBATION and try to understand how a lie and a broken promise ABOUT an issue -- in this case the issue is porn -- is what destroys trust and relationships.

 

Stop getting so defensive over something that you obviously do not understand and try to be open minded.

 

1. Is porn evil? I never said that. Someone else did.

2. Is porn cheating? I said that yes in my case it is and I described why. Did I say that every man who views and uses porn is evil? No I did not.

 

You are damn straight it is my way or the highway on this issue. If I cheated on him in whatever way he would feel cheated then I would expect him to leave me too. The agreement was that he would not view porn and behave in this way. The agreement was that we would share things like this. The agreement did not cover masturbation -- that is a given and it is a totally separate issue from porn. Can't any of you men masturbate without porn? Do you have imaginations? Sheesh!

 

Will I feel better -- Yes I will. I will be hurt that my marriage ended, and hurt that the man I loved so much had betrayed me, but I will feel 1000% better for being out of a relationship where I no longer trust the man I love to consider my feelings and be honest with me.

 

I said I didn't have a problem with porn. But no one can seem to get to that point in my posts. Everyone gets so defensive and high-and-mighty and sarcastic when they see that someone disapproves of porn. Get used to it because a great many people disapprove of it and they are not wrong to feel the way they do. Just because someone feels and thinks differently than you do on this subject does not make them wrong. It does not mean they have a problem. And it does not make you wrong or mean that you have a problem.

 

As much as 'they' say that men are visual and women are emotional and that women just don't 'get' why men like porn -- I also see it as men just don't 'get' why many women feel the way they do about porn and men in general refuse to be open-minded enough to even acknowledge that their use of porn can and does hurt some women.

 

Killing kittens or having an affair would be a deal-breaker too. Even being a hunter -- something I am firmly against -- would be a deal breaker. I would never have married a man who likes to hunt. That was understood during the dating phase, as was porn use. It was discussed and we agreed. I didn't force him to agree with me. He said that he would not use porn out of love and respect for me. He lied. It's a simple as that. I don't expect men to understand that though.

 

As for 'owning his penis' --- masturbation does NOT equal porn. Try to separate those two. And using porn openly and even sharing it sometimes is okay too. But lies and deception are never OK and have nothing at all to do with 'owning his penis' or controlling his behavior in any way.

 

I'm glad I stirred you all up again. It's pretty funny to see how defensive people get and see how much people read what they want to read into posts and do not even consider the possibility that there may be another way of thinking and feeling that is just as 'right' as their way, even if they two are not the same.

[jester]

You didn't stir me up, and I'm a guy. Every marriage has deal breaking behavior, some of which is covered pre-nuptially, and others which are covered during marriage.

 

Porn consumption is a deal breaker to you. You told your spouse this, and he agreed to stop this behavior. He deliberately violated this agreement and violated your trust multiple times.

 

That behavior is , in your view as a wife, absolutely unacceptable behavior in a husband.Every one is different, as are their marriages. There's no wrong or right, here--except for his multiple betrayals on an issue he knew was of extraordinary importance to you.

 

Divorce him, so he can f**k his PC to his heart's content.

[moimeme]

He put his porn use before me.

 

No, he didn't. Just as people who eat fatty foods don't consciously put the foods before their health or smokers put smoke before their lives. We are creatures of impulse, and our impulses are to eat, sleep, have sex, and defend ourselves. No matter how much people like to think all humans are in total control over their impulses, every single one knows that s/he has failed in this respect more times than s/he will ever admit. We are part animal, after all, and that's why we've survived. Is he an addict? I doubt it, but it was something that, once he enjoyed, he found hard to give up. You decided to imbue this one issue with the entire significance of your relationship, which is neither logical nor fair. You've decided to make this an issue of principle and to base all your decisions on principle. Fair enough. I submit to you that you ceased to love this man long ago for any number of reasons and that this is simply your excuse to be rid of him.

 

do not even consider the possibility that there may be another way of thinking and feeling that is just as 'right' as their way, even if they two are not the same.

 

You might want to read some Albert Ellis. He explains exactly how you can think wrongly and how to repair it. It is then up to you to do so or not.

[jmargel]

Stirred up us again? Sounds like you enjoy contraversy. Also sounds like you'll debate til the end until you feel like you have to prove that you are right.

 

Let's see here.. You two have been married for 20 years, thats a LONG time. He's done this 5 times in those 20 years? And you are willing to let him go because of this? Do you realize that you might end up living alone for the rest of your life? This divorce is not going to help you feel better. If you get this divorce then you are admitting defeat. You are letting this porn (or whatever else it may of been) defeat your relationship.

 

I give props that you went to counciling, but for how long, and how long ago? I see that you are very hurt and with that hurt comes the defensiveness.

 

You are right that he lied & betrayed you. You have every right to feel the way you do. But all I ask is for the next day is to just think about all the good times you had with him and how much you shared. Focus on the positive things that you two have been through and how you helped each other out. You owe this not only to the relationship but yourself.

 

Sometimes couples get into ruts, and to you this is a deep one. You need to have communication with each other, but also have to be understanding. Like I said people change over time. 20 years is a long time for a person to be exactly the way they were when you met them. Has something happened in your past that is also making this so intense?

 

In my opinion what you need to do is just to take a break from it all. Not see him for a few days and just think about everything. When did this all happen?

 

BTW, I never mentioned masterbation in my post. I have looked at porn and not masterbated. Ya know us men are capable at looking at this stuff and not get horny over it.

 

With him saying he's embrassed by it, I find that hard to understand since he's been with you for 20 years. I believe something else has been going on with you two that you aren't being honest about. Sounds like you two haven't been open with each other enough in the past and perhaps he might feel inhibited in that way. You have totally confused him by first saying 'We agreed to not have porn in our household' to 'Let's watch porn together and have bondage with me'. I mean jeesh.. Its like showing a dog a bone, getting him excited and then whapping him over the nose telling him 'no'.

 

Anyway like I said before you came here to seek help, even if its something you don't want to admit to right now. Perhaps its in your subsconsious. We aren't here to judge you but help you make a decision that would best suit you. We aren't here to debate either, I would think most of us would hate to see a marriage like yours that lasted 20 years, and was good in every other way (from what you said) come to an end.

[midori]

Originally posted by jester

That behavior is , in your view as a wife, absolutely unacceptable behavior in a husband.Every one is different, as are their marriages. There's no wrong or right, here--except for his multiple betrayals on an issue he knew was of extraordinary importance to you.

 

But imagine for a moment a couple who married without ever discussing whether or not they would have children. Hard to imagine, but do so for argument's sake. In this scenario, let's say that two years into the marriage the husband announces that he's ready to start trying for a baby. And the wife reacts with "I'm not having kids!"

 

Is either party right or wrong? They both goofed by not raising a topic that should have been discussed beforehand. Each assumed that the other was on the same page. So they're left to negotiate what's going to happen, more difficult because now they're married. The issue is important to them both, and it might result in a deal-breaker requiring divorce. Let's say that the husband convinced (strong-armed) the wife into agreeing to have kids. And for a while she was game, but within six months decided that no, she really really didn't want kids and wasn't going to try anymore. Back to square one: he wants kids, she doesn't. Would it be right, at this point, to say that she betrayed him? I don't think so.

 

Or, say she agreed to try to have kids but, unbeknownst to him had her tubes tied so that, try as he might, he couldn't get her pregnant. That's deception, and I could see how it might be called betrayal, because she was duping him into thinking that she was going along with his wishes... but I still don't see it as a fundamental betrayal of the marriage -- not in the same way that cheating is a fundamental betrayal of marriage. Lying to your spouse, actively deceiving them is NOT a good thing, obviously. And I can see how deception would become, in and of itself, a deal-breaker. But what I'm objecting to here is the notion that the partner's unwillingness to go along with the newly revealed wishes of the other partner (whether to have kids, or not to watch porn) is in any sense wrong. The deception is wrong, yes. But wouldn't most people agree that in either case the deception was undertaken by the other partner in order to preserve peace in the marriage? Isn't it indicative that the "erring" spouse wants to stay in the relationship, just not under the new terms imposed by their partner?

 

A husband who really values porn above his marriage would probably respond to his wife's objections with "you don't like it, leave. Or I'll leave. But don't think for a second that you're going to influence me about this." His wife's tears, hurt, anger, whatever, would not register much with him. I don't blame the poster for not wanting to tolerate being lied to, but the notion that her husband has fundamentally betrayed her, a la infidelity, is in my view mistaken.

[moimeme]

She's claiming that this was discussed before the marriage:

 

Divorce is harsh - but porn was a deal-breaker and my husband knew that going in to the marriage. He ignored it. We've been married almost 20 years.

[midori]

yeah, I know. It's just the general point about whether porn can be equated with infidelity a priori.

[jester]

It's just the general point about whether porn can be equated with infidelity a priori.

 

 

No, but consider empirical or a posteriori knowledge.

[SadGuest]

Originally posted by moimeme

He put his porn use before me.

 

No, he didn't. Just as people who eat fatty foods don't consciously put the foods before their health or smokers put smoke before their lives. We are creatures of impulse, and our impulses are to eat, sleep, have sex, and defend ourselves. No matter how much people like to think all humans are in total control over their impulses, every single one knows that s/he has failed in this respect more times than s/he will ever admit. We are part animal, after all, and that's why we've survived. Is he an addict? I doubt it, but it was something that, once he enjoyed, he found hard to give up. You decided to imbue this one issue with the entire significance of your relationship, which is neither logical nor fair. You've decided to make this an issue of principle and to base all your decisions on principle. Fair enough. I submit to you that you ceased to love this man long ago for any number of reasons and that this is simply your excuse to be rid of him.

 

do not even consider the possibility that there may be another way of thinking and feeling that is just as 'right' as their way, even if they two are not the same.

 

You might want to read some Albert Ellis. He explains exactly how you can think wrongly and how to repair it. It is then up to you to do so or not.

 

I heartily disagree. He DID put porn before me. An impulse is one thing but behavior patterns are something else. He had many opportunities, including counseling, to change a behavior that he knew hurt me and that he agreed to change. It's no different than quitting smoking or drinking. I never expected him to quit the first time, or without help after the second or third time he lied to me. Eating and sleeping are not impulses --they are required for life. Sex is not a requirement and most certaily viewing porn and lieing about it is not. There are many people who have quit behaviors that are in any way destructive to their loved ones - such as smoking, drinking, infidelity, porn use, lieing, etc. By choosing to continue with the porn and lie about it he also chose to end the marriage. He knew my feelings. Could I have just accepted that he was going to do it and stayed married? Why sure I could! But I would not have been happy and the dynamic would have changed for the worse in the marriage. I don't need to read something to help me accept a behavior that I find deplorable. I have more integrity than that and more self-respect. I will make changes for someone, but not my core beliefs or principles. I am not thinking wrongly, and I, should say 'we,' have discussed these things in counseling. I understand his POV and I appreciate and respect the fact that he does not want to hurt me. He finally understands that he did indeed hurt me, badly.

 

You may want to adjust your posts to be more accurate and say that something is not logical or fair TO YOU or in YOUR OPINION. To make a blanket statement like you did is completely inaccurate as it does not apply to anyone except you and those who agree/feel the way you do. By not being specific you imply that anyone who does not see it you way is in some way wrong in their feelings or opinions.

 

This is not an excuse to be rid of him. I still love him and that is why it hurts so much -- both the betrayal and the divorce.

 

 

With him saying he's embrassed by it, I find that hard to understand since he's been with you for 20 years. I believe something else has been going on with you two that you aren't being honest about. Sounds like you two haven't been open with each other enough in the past and perhaps he might feel inhibited in that way. You have totally confused him by first saying 'We agreed to not have porn in our household' to 'Let's watch porn together and have bondage with me'. I mean jeesh.. Its like showing a dog a bone, getting him excited and then whapping him over the nose telling him 'no'.

 

Funny analogy! I can see where you may get this from. I'll try to clarify -- not debate. We do have open communication. When this problem first came up years ago we discussed it and discussed our viewing porn together. I told him that sharing was important and his lieing to me was what hurt. I understand that sometimes men enjoy watching porn -- so do some women. He refused to share this with me at all. He said he felt that porn had no place in a loving relationship like we had. I appreciated that and asked him if that meant that he was still going to view porn by himself. He said no because he had me and his imagination when I wasn't around. The conversations we had many times over the years were open and honest on my part, including disucssing bondage and role-play, etc. But he still did not want to share and lied to me and told me that he didn't need or use porn.

 

I have been honest with him all along. He has not been honest with me. That sometimes happens in a relationship.

 

As for being all alone for the rest of my life--- what is so wrong with that? I don't need a man in my life to be happy and content. If I do meet someone else someday it will take me a long time probably, to trust them. Do they have to be a non-porn person? No. But they have to be honest about it. They have to be open with me and if they really enjoy porn then they will have to share some of the excitement with me. I don't trust my husband anymore. Once I've been lied to and hurt so badly -- even if it was only one lie one time -- I can't just say "no big deal" and go on trusting them completely--they have to earn my trust back. My husband earned and re-earned my trust many times. This was the last straw for me.

 

If he had other issues in the marriage (I agree with some of you here and think there probably were/are some other issues) then he did not discuss them with me alone or in counseling. He did not try to address whatever was wrong. If he had abstained from porn for a number of years and then suddenly went back to it then I would know there was something recent that happened to trigger it and I would try to get to the bottom of it before filing for divorce. But again, he did not choose to communicate to me whatever (if any) other issues he had. He was also using porn off and on the entire time of our marriage and lieing about it.

 

I was pretty niaeve I guess, thinking that we worked through the problems we had and that our marriage was healthy. He thought everything was okay as long as I didn't find out. It's like the old saying; 'If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one around to hear, does it make a sound.' I say yes it does. Just because no one hears it does not change the fact of its falling and making noise. He seems to think that all is silent if no one hears it. In other words: I didn't know so I wasn't hurt. But when I found out I was devastated. No knowing does not change the fact of his deception. HE knew.

 

Anyway, as I said in my first post--discuss stuff like this before you get married or get serious about someone and save yourselves some heartache. Everyone has a deal-breaker and no deal-breaker is 'right' or 'wrong' - -they just ARE.

[jmargel]

Well SadGuest there is something that most men will admit to but usually dont come out & tell their mate. Men like viewing porn alone, and they like fantasies of other women. Its just the sexual side of us. Most men who watch it, do their thing with it and finish.. Its not in their minds aftewards. I would guess as well that women do this too.

 

Has he ever put any limitation on what you could do in the marriage? Seems like you were calling all the shots by making him promise to do this & that. The decision of divcorce lies with you. We don't have to live with it, you do.

 

If looking at porn once in awhile makes him happy, and he treats you with the love you deserve I personally don't see a problem with it. If you do still love him then you two can come to what is acceptable and what isn't. And just because you don't do it doesnt mean he shouldn't. He is his own person just like you are. Even though you are married that doesnt mean you own them.

 

I'm sure the times he was hiding it, he was probably scared ****less & felt guilty about it because of how you felt about it. Also you have to take into account, its alot easier to look at porn today than it was 20 years ago. Personally I really think you have some issues on your own you need to work out. Possibily some individual counciling.

 

No marriage is perfect, no one is perfect. If you love a person then you have to accept their faults & forgive. Here's an idea which I know you won't go with.. But if you do stay in the marriage let him look at all the porn he wants, I can guarantee the marriage would be closer because you are showing him you are trusting him enough with it, and he can finally let his guard down and not have to do things behind your back. This is just a suggestion though, its your life.

[dyermaker]

I hope I don't marry someone who doesn't respect my rights as an individual. You feel compelled to know about every aspect of your partner's life. I wish you the best in finding such a man. Don't dare pretend that you wonder why he hid it from you. Your case that you're not an overreacting person is pretty weak, seeing as how you're divorcing your husband of twenty years for having some S and M on his computer.

 

During the distribution of marital assets, demand 50% of his brain, among other organs, as his thoughts clearly belong to you.

[moimeme]

It's no different than quitting smoking or drinking

 

Which some people never succeed at accomplishing.

 

Eating and sleeping are not impulses --they are required for life. Sex is not a requirement

 

Um. The most basic biological imperative of all is to have sex.

 

I have been honest with him all along.

 

Oh, I'll bet there are things you haven't been honest about.

 

He has not been honest with me.

 

If he's a chronic liar, that's one thing. If this is the only issue he lied about, it's quite another.

[Thinkalot]

I don't wish to weigh into a porn debate again. But I do wish to say, this thread is quite sad. So many marriages ending, so much love thrown by the way side over issues like this. Right, or wrong, the decision to divorce is sad. 20 years is a long time. There must surely have been other issues upsetting you besides this for you to take this action.

[Thinkalot]

P.S. SadGuest I don't know if you have been perusing the site a while back when a member, AprilFool was posting a lot about porn. She for one, would probably support and understand your stance.