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I want monogamy. Just, a lot of it...


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Posted

Looking for the wisdom of the crowd, and hoping you can help me out with some advice here.

 

Here's me: successful, 43 yrs old, married 17 years & divorced for 4, educated and highly fit. I have two great daughters who I love very much and love me back. I have a terrific ex-wife and an awesome, post-divorce ex-girlfriend (across the country) who also loves me. We talk about relationship issues all the time.

 

What I really want--the way I'm wired--is a monogamous relationship that includes a lot of contact. Little things like texting throughout the day, or quick phone calls, that say we're thinking of each other. And a lot of sex. And, oh yeah, I want to fall in love. To just be mutually swept off our feet. For me, intimacy consists of big chunks of emotional, physical, and mental. Annnnnd...it's just not happening here.

 

I meet women, we go on dates. By the second or third date, I say, "I want to make sure that whatever decisions we make, we're grownups. I don't want to be someone's mistake." (One girl I slept with last year called me that--'her mistake.' Felt great.) And the girl says, "I completely understand. Don't worry." And then in a week or a month, she tells me things are moving too fast, she needs some time for her emotions to catch up.

 

This is Girl Language for, "It's over."

 

Many men are results-oriented about sex. Date, sex, done. For me, if we're having sex, it means I think we could work together, and I want to find out more. It means I want to spend more time, talk and listen more, and, yes, have more sex. I want to learn about you and about us, about what we could be. If we sleep together on the first date, it makes me more interested in you, not less, because it means that, like me, your passions get the better of you when we're together. It's a good thing. My longest relationships--including that 17-year marriage--all began that way: sex on the first date. And it got better from there.

 

WHY can a girl not be ready, really ready, to fall for me? What am I doing wrong? Should I pursue sexual relationships separately from searching for my true love? Take my need for physical intimacy out of the whole dating equation?

 

At a guess, I've dated 20 women this year, and slept with six of them. For me, this is no good. I don't want to date around, and I don't want to sleep with a lot of women. I want just one. But I don't know how to improve on this.

 

Thank you for any suggestions, no matter how unconventional.

Posted

And what kind of girls are you dating?

Posted
Should I pursue sexual relationships separately from searching for my true love? Take my need for physical intimacy out of the whole dating equation?

 

Try it and see if it works for you. Based on your post, your problem may be too much contact. In the early going, ask them on dates, and don't contact them much otherwise. Focus your sexual energy on time spent together as opposed to dissipating it with idle chatter. If you text a woman more times than she has had orgasms with you in a given week, for example, IMO that's too much texting. Focus on oxytocin flow, not conversation flow. This will present other obsession/control/jealousy problems, especially if she is the least bit insecure or has self-esteem issues, but you will have 2-3 months of a rockin good honeymoon period to try to work past those. Good luck.

  • Author
Posted

Total variety. DC lawyers and activists, Arlington accountants, Rockville jewelry store salespeople, Reston schoolteachers and IT project managers. I'm indifferent to their financial situation. Some have more money than I do, some less.

 

Most are 5-9 years younger. I don't meet many women my own age who are as adventurous and active as I am. I'm thinking about joining a nearby climbing gym so as to meet more girls who are in great physical condition, which, I can't help it, I crave.

Posted

Let's see MFC.

 

You married at 22ish, I'm guessing right out of college, married 17 years to 39, divorced for four, so now you're 43. Also you have an awesome EX-gf post divorce.

 

The obvious place to start is to look at the relationship that's occupied most of your adult life--your marriage.

 

It failed. Why did it fail? You don't say.

 

Based shearly on the timing, I'm guessing someone had a mid life crisis. Was it you? Your wife? Both of you? Was there any infidelity on either or both you/your wife's part? Was she a "walk away wife"? How did the break up affect your kids?

 

No one gets out of a long term marriage like that "clean" emotionally speaking. The amount of emotional trauma, turmoil and hurt is generally devastating. Your ex-wife is "terrific" and your ex-gf is "awesome."

 

Sorry, but that doesn't work for me. If your ex-wife was so "terrific" the simplest answer would be to get back together with her, however much humble pie you might need to swallow. If you can't do that with your ex-wife, why not? You'd still have the alternative of the ex-gf as a back up plan.

 

Why are they "exes"?

 

That's what you need to figure out.

 

It sounds like you are looking for "something" in other people that is missing in yourself. You'll never find it looking to other people for it.

 

You need to look inward.

 

What piece of you is missing?

 

What caused the destruction of a 17 year marriage to a "terrific" ex-wife? And then the relationship with the "awesome" ex-gf?

 

Based on the overall tone of your entire post, which frankly strikes me as similar to how I imagine a teenage girl thinks about love and relationships, and your tendency to over-idealize romantic relationships as reflected in your post, I'll take a bit of a wild guess and speculate that you had some kind of passionate and fantastic emotional affair as part of a mid life crisis that led to the break up of your marriage. Maybe even with your "awesome" ex-gf? It seems to me if it was your wife who cheated on or walked out on you, you wouldn't be calling her "terrific" because most men are very bitter about that sort of thing being done by their wives.

 

You're a 43 year old man, which means you need to think and act like an adult man, not a teenage girl. Adult relationships are not fairy tales. They are hard work. (Obviously you should know that already.) It is pretty likely that while you are an extremely attractive guy on the surface, you have an enormous amount of unresolved emotional baggage you are bringing into these dating relationships and once you start getting to know these new women they sense it and don't want to have anything to do with it.

Posted

I normally like inceptor's posts, but want to disagree with the "teenage girl" characterization of OP. He is coming here trying to identify things he may be doing wrong and seeking feedback, not pouting about it or laying blame.

Posted (edited)
I normally like inceptor's posts, but want to disagree with the "teenage girl" characterization of OP. He is coming here trying to identify things he may be doing wrong and seeking feedback, not pouting about it or laying blame.

 

OK strike the teenage girl remark, sometimes I type faster than I think.

 

OP, please accept my apologies if they are necessary.

Edited by InceptorsRule
Posted
Looking for the wisdom of the crowd, and hoping you can help me out with some advice here.

 

Here's me: successful, 43 yrs old, married 17 years & divorced for 4, educated and highly fit. I have two great daughters who I love very much and love me back. I have a terrific ex-wife and an awesome, post-divorce ex-girlfriend (across the country) who also loves me. We talk about relationship issues all the time.

 

What I really want--the way I'm wired--is a monogamous relationship that includes a lot of contact. Little things like texting throughout the day, or quick phone calls, that say we're thinking of each other. And a lot of sex. And, oh yeah, I want to fall in love. To just be mutually swept off our feet. For me, intimacy consists of big chunks of emotional, physical, and mental. Annnnnd...it's just not happening here.

 

I meet women, we go on dates. By the second or third date, I say, "I want to make sure that whatever decisions we make, we're grownups. I don't want to be someone's mistake." (One girl I slept with last year called me that--'her mistake.' Felt great.) And the girl says, "I completely understand. Don't worry." And then in a week or a month, she tells me things are moving too fast, she needs some time for her emotions to catch up.

 

This is Girl Language for, "It's over."

 

Many men are results-oriented about sex. Date, sex, done. For me, if we're having sex, it means I think we could work together, and I want to find out more. It means I want to spend more time, talk and listen more, and, yes, have more sex. I want to learn about you and about us, about what we could be. If we sleep together on the first date, it makes me more interested in you, not less, because it means that, like me, your passions get the better of you when we're together. It's a good thing. My longest relationships--including that 17-year marriage--all began that way: sex on the first date. And it got better from there.

 

WHY can a girl not be ready, really ready, to fall for me? What am I doing wrong? Should I pursue sexual relationships separately from searching for my true love? Take my need for physical intimacy out of the whole dating equation?

 

At a guess, I've dated 20 women this year, and slept with six of them. For me, this is no good. I don't want to date around, and I don't want to sleep with a lot of women. I want just one. But I don't know how to improve on this.

 

Thank you for any suggestions, no matter how unconventional.

 

You're dating the wrong women and/or expressing what you want poorly. What you want doesn't sound impossible or bad in and of itself.

 

What kind of women do you date? If you're dating women who are significantly younger (5 years doesn't seem significant, but are you falling closer to 9 years) and in great physical shape. . . and persistently single, so never been married and divorced as you have, you're likely to find women who are more picky and selective about why they settle down with. These women are also likely to have some choices and feel good about themselves as single, as they're in great shape. :) That's why they're still single and have never been married. You have. The reason you're single is different.

 

Adventurous and active people are also people who are less likely to commit (not all of them, but on average), particularly if you're looking for people who seem adventurous and active on the outside. I'm really active and I'd say adventurous. I've traveled all over the world. I go river rafting, I climb famous mountains, I've trekked through rain forests, etc. But you'd never know it until you got to know me well, because I don't have some vast obvious craving for variety and adventure for its own sake. People who do are less likely to be interested in stable, monogamous situations on average. Not to say that's un-findable, but I'm just trying to look at where you might people-pick a bit wrong.

 

Also, how are you expressing this? Are you expressing it like "I'm looking for a slot filler and I'm totally serious about it" because that's how it sounds to me. Who wants to be a slot filler? Your commitment to these women should evolve from your interest in them; I'm not saying feign disinterest, as that's lame, but don't go in with all these commitment rules that are derived from past or hypothetical experiences. People don't like to be treated like hypotheticals or other people. Especially attractive, adventurous, active women.

Posted

By the second or third date, I say, "I want to make sure that whatever decisions we make, we're grownups. I don't want to be someone's mistake." (One girl I slept with last year called me that--'her mistake.' Felt great.) And the girl says, "I completely understand. Don't worry." And then in a week or a month, she tells me things are moving too fast, she needs some time for her emotions to catch up.

 

I think it is totally reasonable for you to expect someone to be upfront after the third date, but you seem to be expecting them to be committed by the third date which isn't reasonable.

  • Author
Posted

IR, wow, that is a huge number of questions. I'll focus on what looks like the most important few--the exes.

 

My ex-wife and I were 100% faithful through richer and poorer, literally. And we have two great kids, too. We broke up after three years of a grueling failed business venture and six months of couples counseling. We recognized that we weren't a great couple anymore, or even a good one. There were anger and blame issues over the business, and money. We went through two counselors; fired the first because we didn't think he was doing enough to help us fix us. When it became clear to both of us that the thing was sliding downhill, we agreed to call it off while we were still able to make good decisions, together, for the kids.

 

The first year after the divorce was hard but gradually we learned how to talk to each other again. We now live 10 minutes apart and coordinate on everything with the kids. We are better divorced parents than many married parents I know. We like and respect each other...and we know we would drive each other crazy under the same roof again.

 

I am proud to be an exception to the generalities you cite. My ex and I have put real work into being the best joint parents we can be. Almost none of what you said applies to us. I congratulate you on your imagination--but I tend to look for more data before making assumptions about people.

 

--Oh, the ex-GF! We were all out in New Mexico at the time. A couple years after the divorce, I was ready to start dating again, and that's when I met her. We had a great relationship for 5 months...then my ex-wife, with alot of regrets, closed what remained of our business and moved to the East Coast. There was never any question I would follow, on account of the kids. And my GF had kids of her own, and she wasn't going to take them away from their dad. It was really hard moving away from her.

 

Anyway, thank you for your time in responding. It just happens that I, and the people I love, have worked hard to keep our shiat together, which is sadly not really the norm.

  • Author
Posted
You're dating the wrong women and/or expressing what you want poorly. What you want doesn't sound impossible or bad in and of itself.

 

I like the logic in this...

 

If you're dating women who are significantly younger (5 years doesn't seem significant, but are you falling closer to 9 years) and in great physical shape. . . and persistently single, so never been married and divorced as you have, you're likely to find women who are more picky and selective about why they settle down with. [...]

Adventurous and active people are also people who are less likely to commit (not all of them, but on average)

 

These are really interesting points. Thank you!

 

Also, how are you expressing this? Are you expressing it like "I'm looking for a slot filler and I'm totally serious about it" because that's how it sounds to me. Who wants to be a slot filler?

 

I'm not quite sure what a slot filler is but I think it means a role, rather than a person? I hope I'm not coming across (to dates) as looking for someone to fill a role. My parents were somewhat negative role models in this regard, and I try only to date women I'm interested in as people, for their stories, what they do, how they think. I don't need a replacement mom, a maid, a trophy: I'd like a partner, someone equal to or better than me in various ways.

 

Thank you for your comments--you've given me some good stuff to chew on.

  • Author
Posted
I think it is totally reasonable for you to expect someone to be upfront after the third date, but you seem to be expecting them to be committed by the third date which isn't reasonable.

 

Yes, you're right--let me clarify. By the second or third date, we know if the chemistry is there. I think that's maybe true of many people?--But I don't know, I'm not making a claim there. If the chemistry is there, then we both are inevitably curious...the result isn't hard to predict.

 

But I have to think about being too desirous of commitment, or at least to quick to want commitment. I wonder if I should try to change that about myself, and if so, how. That kind of ties to what meerkat wrote...figuring out some way to reduce the energy somehow...

Posted
By the second or third date, I say, "I want to make sure that whatever decisions we make, we're grownups. I don't want to be someone's mistake." (One girl I slept with last year called me that--'her mistake.' Felt great.) And the girl says, "I completely understand. Don't worry." And then in a week or a month, she tells me things are moving too fast, she needs some time for her emotions to catch up.

You actually say those words?

 

That would send up a flag for me. Whose mistake has he been, and why? I would begin to wonder. Don't even give a woman such a thought, because she probably wasn't thinking anything close to that until you said it.

 

Also, I'm around the age of the women you like to date, it sounds like. I probably wouldn't want to get serious with a guy over 40, as science is now proving that men suffer reproductive challenges past 40, just as women do, and I want a family. I'm not sure what percentage of women are even aware of this or consider it, but it could be a factor.

 

Finally, I think your strong desire for quick commitment might be coming across as slight desperation. If you relax and don't push for commitment, you're generally much likelier to get it.

Posted
Yes, you're right--let me clarify. By the second or third date, we know if the chemistry is there. I think that's maybe true of many people?--But I don't know, I'm not making a claim there. If the chemistry is there, then we both are inevitably curious...the result isn't hard to predict.

 

But I have to think about being too desirous of commitment, or at least to quick to want commitment. I wonder if I should try to change that about myself, and if so, how. That kind of ties to what meerkat wrote...figuring out some way to reduce the energy somehow...

 

I think on the second date you can know if there is chemistry, but you have no idea if there is any long term compatibility.

 

I also think that it is pretty common for a woman to be lukewarm on a guy but to go on 5 or 6 dates to see if the chemistry develops. It doesn't always happen, but it isn't uncommon.

 

I don't know if the issue is contact. It really depends on the people and the dynamic. I think meekrat's no more contact than orgasms is particularly ridiculous. But I do think you need to dial down your expectations a little. Texting throughout the day might take a month or two to build up to. I'm not saying play hard to get, just consider it a work in progress.

 

I think Ruby Slippers brought up a good point about the fatherhood issue. While I doubt many women are thinking of the mobility of your sperm, being over 40 with kids from a prior marriage could end up being a deal breaker for some women in their 30s who see themselves having children.

Posted
L

What I really want--the way I'm wired--is a monogamous relationship that includes a lot of contact. Little things like texting throughout the day, or quick phone calls, that say we're thinking of each other. And a lot of sex. And, oh yeah, I want to fall in love. To just be mutually swept off our feet. For me, intimacy consists of big chunks of emotional, physical, and mental. Annnnnd...it's just not happening here.

 

I.

 

 

I'm wired the same way my friend (probably why I'm still single). But the good news is is they're are things you can do. I've been shot down a hundred times here for suggesting this but it works EVERY time.

 

1. take her sky diving. This will scare the **** out of her, but you will be seen as mysterious and fun. Trust me, I know I'm an instructor. she will love it. 2. Then go to a nice dinner. The fireworks will go off after that.3. Then just take things at your/her own pace. Things will work out for you. Or you could be the typical guy: "Hey, lets go have a some coffee.Gee how exciting. The choice is yours my friend.

Posted
While I doubt many women are thinking of the mobility of your sperm, being over 40 with kids from a prior marriage could end up being a deal breaker for some women in their 30s who see themselves having children.

 

This is exactly what I was going to say. I'm around the age of the women the OP is dating (early thirties) and while I have dated guys in their forties, a serious commitment wasn't on the cards for exactly that reason - a guy in his forties with kids from a prior marriage is ok to date for a while and have fun with, but he's not a good choice to father my children. Perhaps things would work out better with slightly older women, who maybe have kids of their own already?

 

Btw, your ex-wife is not "terrific" - she sounds like a bitch. You said your ex-gf wouldn't take her kids away from their father, yet your ex took your kids away from you. What kind of woman drags her kids across the country away from their daddy, and then forces him to choose between his kids and the woman he loves? Talk about selfish!

Posted
IR, wow, that is a huge number of questions. I'll focus on what looks like the most important few--the exes.

 

Sorry if I gave too much homework! It's helpful to get as many details as possible.

 

 

My ex-wife and I were 100% faithful through richer and poorer, literally. And we have two great kids, too. We broke up after three years of a grueling failed business venture and six months of couples counseling. We recognized that we weren't a great couple anymore, or even a good one. There were anger and blame issues over the business, and money. We went through two counselors; fired the first because we didn't think he was doing enough to help us fix us. When it became clear to both of us that the thing was sliding downhill, we agreed to call it off while we were still able to make good decisions, together, for the kids.

 

Now this is REALLY interesting but raises more questions than it answers, because the situation as to why your marriage failed sounds really complicated. If you'll re-read the above paragraph, there's really no details about whatever emotional journey you and your wife went through, which I think is critical to understanding how you relate to the other person when you're in a relationship. I understand that a failed business can put enormous stress on a relationship but obviously there's more there, if you don't want to talk about it I guess that's understandable though.

 

Also, you give no details about your relationship with your wife before the business failure/marital breakup. That's most of your adult life.

 

 

The first year after the divorce was hard but gradually we learned how to talk to each other again. We now live 10 minutes apart and coordinate on everything with the kids. We are better divorced parents than many married parents I know. We like and respect each other...and we know we would drive each other crazy under the same roof again.

 

Granted, a lot of people who divorce probably feel this way, except you don't say why you feel that way. Again, you're "summarizing" the situation rather than providing any explanatory details. What is it you do that would drive her crazy; what is it she does that would drive you crazy; and why do you feel that whatever the problem actually was during your marriage, it could not be fixed?

 

Serious financial problems really really suck. I know that. However I also know people who have gone through Chap. 7 and Chap. 13 together and not ended up divorced. Divorce is usually very costly in and of itself, if only because two separate households need to be set up for the family.

 

The only reason I mentioned "infidelity" as a possible cause of the marital break up is because that is the ONE "biggie" (other than something like addiction or outright spousal abuse) that is often present when a marriage breaks up. Maybe not always the initial "cause" of the breakup, but when people are having other kinds of marital problems one or both of them frequently turn outside the marriage for emotional solace. Then the affair is discovered and becomes the straw that breaks the camel's back.

 

 

 

I am proud to be an exception to the generalities you cite. My ex and I have put real work into being the best joint parents we can be. Almost none of what you said applies to us. I congratulate you on your imagination--but I tend to look for more data before making assumptions about people.

 

I am looking for data. That's why I asked a lot of questions. I'm glad you're very good joint parents, but your question relates to dating not parenting, and while your parenting ability is somewhat relevant, more relevant is the way you relate to members of the opposite sex and in this case your approach to problem-solving in relationships. Your divorce situation is actually a "double problem" because it involved a combined failure of the business relationship with your wife as well as the simultaneous failure of the emotional relationship.

 

Lots of businesses fail because that's the nature of businesses, esp. small/family businesses. Lots of marriages also fail, to a large extent many of the day to day functional aspects of a marriage are like running a business.

 

Not being able to keep the marriage together, despite many months of counseling, suggests an inability to compromise by one or the other or both of you. Since you don't supply any details about what was actually the collision point or points between the two of you it's impossible to know though.

 

 

 

--Oh, the ex-GF! We were all out in New Mexico at the time. A couple years after the divorce, I was ready to start dating again, and that's when I met her. We had a great relationship for 5 months...then my ex-wife, with a lot of regrets, closed what remained of our business and moved to the East Coast.

 

Like I said, "inability to compromise." Are you suggesting that your ex-wife decided to move cross-country/out of state without any input from you? This was basically a unilateral decision on her part? You don't say that it was a mutual decision that your ex-wife should move all the way to the East Coast. Or, do you feel you were placed in a situation where you were more or less "forced" to go along with it? If so, why?

 

I don't know about New Mexico but most states when people get divorced, the custody agreement or custody order prohibits the custodial parent from moving out of state w/o the other parent's consent or getting the custody agreement modified by a court order.

 

I understand that the business failure may have made it a good financial decision to ultimately cut losses and close what remained of the business. But you're "lumping" that purely business decision in with your ex-wife's personal decision to move East. It seems to me there is no possible way she could have moved thousands of miles away without your consent or a court order, or at least your failure to do anything to prevent it. Again the importance of knowing the details on this is because it gives insight into how you resolve conflict and how you make decisions in a relationship. (Your interactions with your ex-wife still form a "relationship" albeit non-marital/non-romantic, at least not explicitly.)

 

 

There was never any question I would follow, on account of the kids. And my GF had kids of her own, and she wasn't going to take them away from their dad. It was really hard moving away from her.

 

O.K. MFC. Now IMO the way you talk about this whole situation is part of the problem you are having. You're definitely making it sound as if your ex-wife's decision to move clear cross country was completely unilateral. You had to "follow" or you would have been deprived of access to your kids. This can't be right, can it? Does New Mexico law permit the custodial parent to leave the State and deny visitation by doing so, without any say of the non-custodial parent? Did she move East because she has other family there and it's more practical so that's why you agreed to it? If for whatever reason you agreed to it, then you shouldn't portray the decision making process as being unilateral on her part. You can't have it both ways--either you acquiesced in some manner or you didn't.

 

This is highlighted by the fact that your GF did NOT move because "she wasn't going to take her kids away from THEIR dad." But apparently your EX-WIFE did that to you?

 

C'mon man. You have to be more upfront with this stuff or else it's very difficult to know what is what about your situation.

 

 

 

Anyway, thank you for your time in responding. It just happens that I, and the people I love, have worked hard to keep our shiat together, which is sadly not really the norm.

 

 

Actually the more I hear about your situation, the more it sounds to me like you haven't really kept your "shiat" together at all, at least not emotionally speaking.

 

Think about it. You start going out with a new girl, go out on a few dates, then start talking about getting more serious with the new girl. You're in great shape so the initial attraction/sparks part, the first few dates, is relatively easy for you.

 

Obviously they're going to want to know what your track record is if they're going to contemplate getting serious with you. A good woman is not going to want to entangle her life with yours without getting some 411 on how you got where you are today.

 

So I'll bet you're laying down much of the same info as you've laid down in response to my questions. Maybe you're having drinks on the third or fourth date and the cutey you are with asks you: "So tell me MFC why isn't a hunky great successful guy like you taken?"

 

"Well I was married 17 years but now I'm divorced, my ex-wife and I get along great in raising our children. I didn't cheat on my ex-wife but our marriage failed because we were in business together and the business failed. We tried six months of marital counseling but it didn't work. I'm from New Mexico. The reason I moved out east is because my ex-wife and decided to up and move thousands of miles away from me, and I followed the ex cross country because I did not want to be deprived of access to my children. Before moving East, I did have one fabulous relationship for five months with a great woman who also had kids, but that relationship ended when my wife up and moved cross country, forcing me to follow her to be with my kids."

 

OK so I bolded some of the issues randomly which might send up some "alarm signals" to any woman considering getting into a serious LTR with you. Now obviously since I don't know all the details by a long shot, it might not be totally accurate as a picture, but it has to be pretty close. For example even if you clarify by saying the move east was actually consensual, to a new woman, it's all the same--you're still in a position of having to follow your ex around anywhere she decides she really wants to go, or else you're denied access to your kids.

 

In any event if you are trying to get SERIOUS with a woman, you HAVE to tell her this stuff about your relationship history. If you're NOT telling her this stuff, and a lot more, then you have to be evading it, and that's going to come off to a new person as if you're leaving "gaps" which need to be filled.

 

If you ARE being upfront with new women and telling them this stuff, why on earth would you expect them to be particularly comfortable about making any type of commitment to you?

 

Your post-divorce five month gf got completely screwed over when your ex left New Mexico, forcing you to follow to be with your kids, ending your relationship with the ex-gf. How does anyone new have confidence that something similar might not happen at some point in the future, after investing say a year or more in a serious relationship with you? Often people who make cross country moves for whatever reason, later on find a reason to move BACK. I'm not saying your ex-wife will, but people often do, and a new gf is going to have no way of knowing what your ex-wife might do in the future.

 

Add to that numerous other issues such as: being a step-partner to your children; having to deal with your relationship with your ex-wife; the fact that in addition to having a failed marriage, you failed at your business; the fact that when your marriage hit the rocks, you couldn't figure out a way to fix it, even with lots of help; (not saying it's all your fault, however, all a new person is going to see is that you couldn't fix it).

 

Also the way you emotionally relate to your ex-wife is probably coming off as strangely repressed. Yes I know, new age and all, it's not good for the kids if you don't get along with the ex-wife. But there's a difference between maintaining civility for practical reasons in your interactions with your ex-wife, and an inability/unwillingness to be able to express emotions about your situation to someone new that you might be with.

 

It's one thing to be able to successfully deal with emotional conflict by acting rationally in response to it; it's a different story to pretend that it's not there. You are "selling" an emotional presentation of yourself which is essentially "conflict free" with respect to your ex-wife, yet the objective facts of your situation suggest that there has to be a lot of resentment stuffed down inside of you. It's just the nature of these things.

 

In addition to all the obvious red flags based on your track record, I have the suspicion that your emotional presentation to new women is somehow presenting a "false note" to them, which they can't figure out, placing them "ill at ease." They look at the total picture and perhaps decide there are too many unknowns, and if they're attractive and have other options, it sounds like they're simply being cautious and trying to avoid potential problems that a serious LTR with you, or anyone with your history, might imply.

 

That's simply the most obvious issue.

Posted
IR, wow, that is a huge number of questions. I'll focus on what looks like the most important few--the exes.

 

Sorry if I gave too much homework! It's helpful to get as many details as possible.

 

 

My ex-wife and I were 100% faithful through richer and poorer, literally. And we have two great kids, too. We broke up after three years of a grueling failed business venture and six months of couples counseling. We recognized that we weren't a great couple anymore, or even a good one. There were anger and blame issues over the business, and money. We went through two counselors; fired the first because we didn't think he was doing enough to help us fix us. When it became clear to both of us that the thing was sliding downhill, we agreed to call it off while we were still able to make good decisions, together, for the kids.

 

Now this is REALLY interesting but raises more questions than it answers, because the situation as to why your marriage failed sounds really complicated. If you'll re-read the above paragraph, there's really no details about whatever emotional journey you and your wife went through, which I think is critical to understanding how you relate to the other person when you're in a relationship. I understand that a failed business can put enormous stress on a relationship but obviously there's more there, if you don't want to talk about it I guess that's understandable though.

 

Also, you give no details about your relationship with your wife before the business failure/marital breakup. That's most of your adult life.

 

 

The first year after the divorce was hard but gradually we learned how to talk to each other again. We now live 10 minutes apart and coordinate on everything with the kids. We are better divorced parents than many married parents I know. We like and respect each other...and we know we would drive each other crazy under the same roof again.

 

Granted, a lot of people who divorce probably feel this way, except you don't say why you feel that way. Again, you're "summarizing" the situation rather than providing any explanatory details. What is it you do that would drive her crazy; what is it she does that would drive you crazy; and why do you feel that whatever the problem actually was during your marriage, it could not be fixed?

 

Serious financial problems really really suck. I know that. However I also know people who have gone through Chap. 7 and Chap. 13 together and not ended up divorced. Divorce is usually very costly in and of itself, if only because two separate households need to be set up for the family.

 

The only reason I mentioned "infidelity" as a possible cause of the marital break up is because that is the ONE "biggie" (other than something like addiction or outright spousal abuse) that is often present when a marriage breaks up. Maybe not always the initial "cause" of the breakup, but when people are having other kinds of marital problems one or both of them frequently turn outside the marriage for emotional solace. Then the affair is discovered and becomes the straw that breaks the camel's back.

 

 

 

I am proud to be an exception to the generalities you cite. My ex and I have put real work into being the best joint parents we can be. Almost none of what you said applies to us. I congratulate you on your imagination--but I tend to look for more data before making assumptions about people.

 

I am looking for data. That's why I asked a lot of questions. I'm glad you're very good joint parents, but your question relates to dating not parenting, and while your parenting ability is somewhat relevant, more relevant is the way you relate to members of the opposite sex and in this case your approach to problem-solving in relationships. Your divorce situation is actually a "double problem" because it involved a combined failure of the business relationship with your wife as well as the simultaneous failure of the emotional relationship.

 

Lots of businesses fail because that's the nature of businesses, esp. small/family businesses. Lots of marriages also fail, to a large extent many of the day to day functional aspects of a marriage are like running a business.

 

Not being able to keep the marriage together, despite many months of counseling, suggests an inability to compromise by one or the other or both of you. Since you don't supply any details about what was actually the collision point or points between the two of you it's impossible to know though.

 

 

 

--Oh, the ex-GF! We were all out in New Mexico at the time. A couple years after the divorce, I was ready to start dating again, and that's when I met her. We had a great relationship for 5 months...then my ex-wife, with a lot of regrets, closed what remained of our business and moved to the East Coast.

 

Like I said, "inability to compromise." Are you suggesting that your ex-wife decided to move cross-country/out of state without any input from you? This was basically a unilateral decision on her part? You don't say that it was a mutual decision that your ex-wife should move all the way to the East Coast. Or, do you feel you were placed in a situation where you were more or less "forced" to go along with it? If so, why?

 

I don't know about New Mexico but most states when people get divorced, the custody agreement or custody order prohibits the custodial parent from moving out of state w/o the other parent's consent or getting the custody agreement modified by a court order.

 

I understand that the business failure may have made it a good financial decision to ultimately cut losses and close what remained of the business. But you're "lumping" that purely business decision in with your ex-wife's personal decision to move East. It seems to me there is no possible way she could have moved thousands of miles away without your consent or a court order, or at least your failure to do anything to prevent it. Again the importance of knowing the details on this is because it gives insight into how you resolve conflict and how you make decisions in a relationship. (Your interactions with your ex-wife still form a "relationship" albeit non-marital/non-romantic, at least not explicitly.)

 

 

There was never any question I would follow, on account of the kids. And my GF had kids of her own, and she wasn't going to take them away from their dad. It was really hard moving away from her.

 

O.K. MFC. Now IMO the way you talk about this whole situation is part of the problem you are having. You're definitely making it sound as if your ex-wife's decision to move clear cross country was completely unilateral. You had to "follow" or you would have been deprived of access to your kids. This can't be right, can it? Does New Mexico law permit the custodial parent to leave the State and deny visitation by doing so, without any say of the non-custodial parent? Did she move East because she has other family there and it's more practical so that's why you agreed to it? If for whatever reason you agreed to it, then you shouldn't portray the decision making process as being unilateral on her part. You can't have it both ways--either you acquiesced in some manner or you didn't.

 

This is highlighted by the fact that your GF did NOT move because "she wasn't going to take her kids away from THEIR dad." But apparently your EX-WIFE did that to you?

 

C'mon man. You have to be more upfront with this stuff or else it's very difficult to know what is what about your situation.

 

 

 

Anyway, thank you for your time in responding. It just happens that I, and the people I love, have worked hard to keep our shiat together, which is sadly not really the norm.

 

 

Actually the more I hear about your situation, the more it sounds to me like you haven't really kept your "shiat" together at all, at least not emotionally speaking.

 

Think about it. You start going out with a new girl, go out on a few dates, then start talking about getting more serious with the new girl. You're in great shape so the initial attraction/sparks part, the first few dates, is relatively easy for you.

 

Obviously they're going to want to know what your track record is if they're going to contemplate getting serious with you. A good woman is not going to want to entangle her life with yours without getting some 411 on how you got where you are today.

 

So I'll bet you're laying down much of the same info as you've laid down in response to my questions. Maybe you're having drinks on the third or fourth date and the cutey you are with asks you: "So tell me MFC why isn't a hunky great successful guy like you taken?"

 

"Well I was married 17 years but now I'm divorced, my ex-wife and I get along great in raising our children. I didn't cheat on my ex-wife but our marriage failed because we were in business together and the business failed. We tried six months of marital counseling but it didn't work. I'm from New Mexico. The reason I moved out east is because my ex-wife and decided to up and move thousands of miles away from me, and I followed the ex cross country because I did not want to be deprived of access to my children. Before moving East, I did have one fabulous relationship for five months with a great woman who also had kids, but that relationship ended when my wife up and moved cross country, forcing me to follow her to be with my kids."

 

OK so I bolded some of the issues randomly which might send up some "alarm signals" to any woman considering getting into a serious LTR with you. Now obviously since I don't know all the details by a long shot, it might not be totally accurate as a picture, but it has to be pretty close. For example even if you clarify by saying the move east was actually consensual, to a new woman, it's all the same--you're still in a position of having to follow your ex around anywhere she decides she really wants to go, or else you're denied access to your kids.

 

In any event if you are trying to get SERIOUS with a woman, you HAVE to tell her this stuff about your relationship history. If you're NOT telling her this stuff, and a lot more, then you have to be evading it, and that's going to come off to a new person as if you're leaving "gaps" which need to be filled.

 

If you ARE being upfront with new women and telling them this stuff, why on earth would you expect them to be particularly comfortable about making any type of commitment to you?

 

Your post-divorce five month gf got completely screwed over when your ex left New Mexico, forcing you to follow to be with your kids, ending your relationship with the ex-gf. How does anyone new have confidence that something similar might not happen at some point in the future, after investing say a year or more in a serious relationship with you? Often people who make cross country moves for whatever reason, later on find a reason to move BACK. I'm not saying your ex-wife will, but people often do, and a new gf is going to have no way of knowing what your ex-wife might do in the future.

 

Add to that numerous other issues such as: being a step-partner to your children; having to deal with your relationship with your ex-wife; the fact that in addition to having a failed marriage, you failed at your business; the fact that when your marriage hit the rocks, you couldn't figure out a way to fix it, even with lots of help; (not saying it's all your fault, however, all a new person is going to see is that you couldn't fix it).

 

Also the way you emotionally relate to your ex-wife is probably coming off as strangely repressed. Yes I know, new age and all, it's not good for the kids if you don't get along with the ex-wife. But there's a difference between maintaining civility for practical reasons in your interactions with your ex-wife, and an inability/unwillingness to be able to express emotions about your situation to someone new that you might be with.

 

It's one thing to be able to successfully deal with emotional conflict by acting rationally in response to it; it's a different story to pretend that it's not there. You are "selling" an emotional presentation of yourself which is essentially "conflict free" with respect to your ex-wife, yet the objective facts of your situation suggest that there has to be a lot of resentment stuffed down inside of you. It's just the nature of these things.

 

In addition to all the obvious red flags based on your track record, I have the suspicion that your emotional presentation to new women is somehow presenting a "false note" to them, which they can't figure out, placing them "ill at ease." They look at the total picture and perhaps decide there are too many unknowns, and if they're attractive and have other options, it sounds like they're simply being cautious and trying to avoid potential problems that a serious LTR with you, or anyone with your history, might imply.

 

That's simply the most obvious issue.

Posted
Yes, you're right--let me clarify. By the second or third date, we know if the chemistry is there. I think that's maybe true of many people?--But I don't know, I'm not making a claim there. If the chemistry is there, then we both are inevitably curious...the result isn't hard to predict.

 

But I have to think about being too desirous of commitment, or at least to quick to want commitment. I wonder if I should try to change that about myself, and if so, how. That kind of ties to what meerkat wrote...figuring out some way to reduce the energy somehow...

 

I think part of the issue is the way you're putting it as though it's "Going through the motions" -- All the, "oh, it's the third date, that means sex." "Oh, it's the third date, that means commitment." Oh, it's the (insert time), that means (insert random milestone). . . I don't find that stuff to be very good at attracting anyone. In fact, I find it repellent. This is what I meant by slot-filling. Your motions are your motions, and you are a bit set in your ways and ideas (this happens naturally with time too, I think, so older daters may need to watch it more), which is fine with values but can come off as though the other person isn't important, even when they are. Especially with "adventurous" people. In fact, it's pretty much the opposite of what most adventurous people I know do -- we are very go-with-the-flow, feel-the-moment, use-your-intuition in many ways. And this seems overly structured.

 

If you present it more like, "I'm attracted to you and really interested in seeing where this is going and at this point I'd be cool with not seeing anyone else," I think that is a lot better. Generally, offering something ("I'm cool with exclusivity if you are" vibe) is the best way to get reciprocity, as it doesn't trap the other person or spring something on them. I'm not saying be a doormat and be exclusive while she dates around for weeks on end. . . and certainly it won't always work on everyone. I'm just saying that this usually will get better results than asking someone else to "give" you something. Been my experience on both sides of the equation (being the first one to express a desire for something and being the one who was asked for something).

 

I'm not quite sure what a slot filler is but I think it means a role, rather than a person? I hope I'm not coming across (to dates) as looking for someone to fill a role. My parents were somewhat negative role models in this regard, and I try only to date women I'm interested in as people, for their stories, what they do, how they think. I don't need a replacement mom, a maid, a trophy: I'd like a partner, someone equal to or better than me in various ways.

 

Thank you for your comments--you've given me some good stuff to chew on.

 

Yes, it means a role. Like wanting a girlfriend, rather than being so interested in a gal that you want HER to be your girlfriend. I'm not saying you have to pretend you don't want a girlfriend (as being resistant to it is sometimes just as much a turnoff as being a slot-filler). . . it's about balance. Everyone wants to feel like they're sincerely being picked for who they are. It's just a vibe I got from this post---that you may come across this way in the way you word things. Since you are sincerely interested in these women, it should be an easy fix with re-wording. Tone down your presentation without toning down what you want.

Posted

MFC i understand after a marriage of that many years....we grow and become wiser unless we as an individual tend not to mature for whatever significant reason... Now by what your explaining it seems you may have made mutual standings with your ex wife...i congratulate you for that..most men become selfish and would stay with their ex- girlfriend...because they cant stand the ex wife and become needless of what the kids importants..

 

 

But brother...out of 17 years you had the chance to grow and become skillful in knowing what true love can mean and what it does to your heart..plus your divorced now and see the outcomes of your decision making...a womans first turn off is emotional abuse...she becomes attach when it sex and sometimes she wont say it..but its symbolic to that relationship she in...because giving their body to someone they care for...the comfort of knowing your not gunna up and leave is hard to show...because its so fresh in the relationship...so yes take your time and learn the woman ur dating...and say to yourself.

 

hey man i slept wit my wife i didnt learn our compatibilities that cause our unsureness of each other and counseling didnt even help...so thats a start...learn from your mistakes because we as a person tend to over look this small steps..that a mature woman...SEES AS A BIG STEP...good luck brother...just my 2 cents but im telling u... a woman that will keep u on ur heels and also meet ur emotional requirements and physical is out their...but u also gotta meet her half way..by first being prepared to take it slow and learn the woman inside and out..hope it helps some

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Posted

I think it's hard for humans to accept the idea that we're engineered for about 30 years, and everything drops off pretty fast after that, if left to itself. You're right, That Girl & Ruby--and in fact there have been some recent articles on how unfair it is to keep citing the woman as the cause of birth defects in babies born to parents in middle age. Defective sperm plays a bigger role than society usually acknowledges. (Thank you, male-dominated medical profession?) My dates know that I'm a dad, and hopefully we aren't going out, if my age, or family, is a dealbreaker. Why, that would be like saying some women are just in it for free drinks and a good meal, and that's not true, right...? ;)

 

IT: of course it was complicated. Many personal changes occur over 17 years. Your observation that I'm summarizing is accurate; to a degree this format prefers it, and I'm not going to explain all that happened in 17 years and then another four. We had a strong relationship for a long time.

 

"Add to that numerous other issues such as: being a step-partner to your children; having to deal with your relationship with your ex-wife; the fact that in addition to having a failed marriage, you failed at your business; the fact that when your marriage hit the rocks, you couldn't figure out a way to fix it, even with lots of help; (not saying it's all your fault, however, all a new person is going to see is that you couldn't fix it)."

 

--Bracing! I have even more character flaws than these, too; honestly, it's a miracle I get out of bed in the mornings.

 

 

Zen: "Tone down your presentation without toning down what you want." - words to live by. Thank you.

 

SkyDive: I'm with you on that theory! I dislike meeting in bars, restaurants, etc. I always try to see if she wants to do something where we're moving around, walking...hopefully, kayaking, hiking, motorcycling, something like that--depends on what she's interested in and comfortable with. In this area it's a challenge. DC metro doesn't hold a candle to the West in terms of access to outdoor activities, which are unfortunately something I enjoy a lot as well as a fun icebreaker.

 

EvrMor--I get what you're saying, but I don't agree with some of it. Taking things quickly with my ex-wife wasn't a problem. We were young, we fell in love, we respected each other and learned to work as a team. We beat piles of odds: I was in the Army, she was still in college; finances were a constant struggle; we were apart for months at a time. We stayed faithful, stayed true, stayed interested in each other as people...did better than most Americans in conditions that usually break new marriages fast.

 

"Take it slow" is right on, good words, now I just have to figure out how to put them in practice.

Posted
--Bracing! I have even more character flaws than these, too; honestly, it's a miracle I get out of bed in the mornings.

 

MFC,

 

my observations of your situation as presented are my subjective opinions and were not meant to be taken as a criticism of your character.

 

I meant to explain that these issues are simply part of your recent past history, and regardless of the particular person's character, these same issues likely would cause a potential new relationship concerns, no matter WHO the man is/was.

Posted
My dates know that I'm a dad, and hopefully we aren't going out, if my age, or family, is a dealbreaker. Why, that would be like saying some women are just in it for free drinks and a good meal, and that's not true, right...? ;)

I would love to date a man in his 40s. I think that in some ways, that's a man's prime. By that age, most men are mature and experienced enough to know what they want, to communicate clearly, to be sexually and sensually in tune, and to know some things. Just as the young hottie might be attractive to men for some reasons, but unattractive for others, so is the older man attractive to some women, myself included.

 

But the reproductive limitations of an older man (or woman) are undeniable, and since I do want long-term commitment and a family, I would shy away from 40-something men for that reason. If he were early 40s and a truly great catch, I might take the risk, but otherwise probably not.

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