Not GETTING enough? Or not GIVING enough?

[turnstone]

Turnstone, if it is dirty, naughty or forbidden driving the decision to cheat, well then I/we have just learned something, haven't we?

 

Someone is still rebelling against a mean mommy or daddy, and maybe that would be the place to start successful therapy.

Yes, possibly, although in my exH's case I think it was more about sex never having been about love, but actually to do with power.

 

Or if the AP made them feel strong, or smart, or handsome?

Oh, undoubtedly this happened too, but anyone willing to have sex with him would have made him feel that way. Certainly he felt powerful, which is maybe another word for it. Weirdly (not surprisingly), one of the reasons he loved having sex with me so much was the fact he saw me as a powerful person and I'm sure dominating me gave him an even bigger thrill and made him feel even more powerful, which is probably one of the reasons why he wanted to marry me in the first place.

 

It is a place to start, not only IC, but the weakness that has made the WS susceptible in the first place.

 

It is almost NEVER about the AP.....It is about the need within the WS that they fed.

Agreed.

[Spark1111]

Yes, possibly, although in my exH's case I think it was more about sex never having been about love, but actually to do with power.

 

Oh, undoubtedly this happened too, but anyone willing to have sex with him would have made him feel that way. Certainly he felt powerful, which is maybe another word for it. Weirdly (not surprisingly), one of the reasons he loved having sex with me so much was the fact he saw me as a powerful person and I'm sure dominating me gave him an even bigger thrill and made him feel even more powerful, which is probably one of the reasons why he wanted to marry me in the first place.

 

Agreed.

 

Hmmm....so if he ever wanted to rehabilitate himself emotionally would be: So, why do you feel sooo POWERLESS? What series of events in your life caused this?

 

But most won't. They do not see a connection between self-destructive behavior and consequences on such a deep level.

[wheelwright]

"Most WSs discover through IC or MC, that where before the affair started they felt they were not getting enough of their needs met in the marital relationship, usually find out that they were not giving enough."

 

She goes onto explain that if they devoted the same effort to the marriage as they did to the affair, the spouse would usually be thrilled with those changes of time, affection, intimacy.

 

She also notes that the MOST important question to ask is, "how did your affair partner make you feel?"

 

Because if the spouse can recreate that feeling in the marital relationship, the fWS is thrilled.

 

This rings true to me.

 

Thoughts?

 

Well, we know each other's history's Spark, and I have to say this post galls me (because it hurts).

 

It's awful if as the OW you loved, and that is used to rejuvinate the M.

 

Like the OW is practice ground for how to feel romantic and loving to a woman and then the WS realises they should have done that in the M.

 

But it doesn't gall me completely. It's that old chestnut about someone re-realising love.

 

I can't say I benefitted, but it's OK with me that they did.

 

Like so many threads, it all comes back to whether you create/behave love, or feel it.

 

And about how your AP makes you feel. I remember my xAp saying to me he didn't know how to make his BS happy. I told him he did - after all he knew her well enough after 15 years. He seemed to take that on board!

 

And then I cried.

[turnstone]

Hmmm....so if he ever wanted to rehabilitate himself emotionally would be: So, why do you feel sooo POWERLESS? What series of events in your life caused this?

 

Again, hmmm....... I'm not sure, maybe it does stem from feeling powerless. I think its more to do with being addicted to feeling powerful, which is not the same thing. He is a very wealthy and a very successful man in many ways. The youngest of two brothers, his mother doted on him, his father was proud of him and he got [gets?] on well with his brother. He comes from a family with a middling income and he made an awful lot of money in his early twenties. I believe he became addicted to the feeling of power it gave him and like any addiction, he needs more and more of the thing that feeds those feelings of being powerful.

 

But that's primarily because my exH for one, doesn't recognise it as self-destructive. Maybe it isn't. Afterall he gets to bang a load of pretty ladies with no fear of commitment now. Not at all bad for a guy who doesn't like sharing (apart from STDs it'd seem ).

[Spark1111]

Again, hmmm....... I'm not sure, maybe it does stem from feeling powerless. I think its more to do with being addicted to feeling powerful, which is not the same thing. He is a very wealthy and a very successful man in many ways. The youngest of two brothers, his mother doted on him, his father was proud of him and he got [gets?] on well with his brother. He comes from a family with a middling income and he made an awful lot of money in his early twenties. I believe he became addicted to the feeling of power it gave him and like any addiction, he needs more and more of the thing that feeds those feelings of being powerful.

 

But that's primarily because my exH for one, doesn't recognise it as self-destructive. Maybe it isn't. Afterall he gets to bang a load of pretty ladies with no fear of commitment now. Not at all bad for a guy who doesn't like sharing (apart from STDs it'd seem ).

 

Yes, power is a very strong addiction. So now the question becomes: "Why did you feel so self-entitled?"

 

And that, unfortunately bespeaks an arrogant selfishness that would be extremely difficult to change, IMHO.

 

You made the right choice my friend.

[Spark1111]

Well, we know each other's history's Spark, and I have to say this post galls me (because it hurts).

 

It's awful if as the OW you loved, and that is used to rejuvinate the M.

 

Like the OW is practice ground for how to feel romantic and loving to a woman and then the WS realises they should have done that in the M.

 

But it doesn't gall me completely. It's that old chestnut about someone re-realising love.

 

I can't say I benefitted, but it's OK with me that they did.

 

Like so many threads, it all comes back to whether you create/behave love, or feel it.

 

And about how your AP makes you feel. I remember my xAp saying to me he didn't know how to make his BS happy. I told him he did - after all he knew her well enough after 15 years. He seemed to take that on board!

 

And then I cried.

 

I am so sorry this hurt you. It wasn't intended to.

 

Some desperately seek reconciliation because they are afraid to give up their security; their cave, so to speak.

 

Some awake and realize, "what am I doing?!!!! I love my wife."

 

While it is impossible for the OW to truly realize what dynamic she has walked into, I believe Dr. Glass was referring to the second scenario as her work speaks to successfully reconciling.

 

Unfortunately for those who love a committed partner, a common occurrence in HER opinion.

[NoIDidn't]

Good topic, Spark.

 

Like in your situation, my H's A occurred after the death of a parent. He took it hard. He shutdown emotionally towards me and stopped participating in our life as a partner. He didn't do anything beyond what he had to do - go to work, eat, and sleep. I managed our home, bills, children, etc.. I hated being a married but single parent.

 

I remember distinctly, after d-day, him telling me that he felt all I wanted him for was his paycheck. It angered me because it was true as that was all he was giving. He gave nothing else but his paycheck to our life in the short period before and during his EA. This was brought up during therapy.

 

Our MC was good in that he asked my H some pretty straight-forward questions about our life together and what he did on a normal day. As my H answered the questions, he could see it was his choice to be a paycheck and his choice to consistently give less than what he was demanding. He started to pause as he answered the questions. I could see he was starting to get it.

 

And he never forgot it. I haven't forgotten it either. Its so easy to get wrapped up in our own sense of how much we are doing, only to find that we may be busy but we aren't doing anywhere near what we think we are doing for our families and relationships.

 

I think this was one of the most important things to come out of MC, because it applies to more than just a marital R. Sometimes we do give more than we are getting back (another MC concept is that successful marriages involve both partners giving more than they take in return), but most often we are holding ourselves back waiting for the other to give more.

[jennie-jennie]

I have reconciled with both my exSOs. The question really is what is the capacity of the relationship. No relationship can be made any better than what it has the resources to be.

 

Reconciling with my first exSO we had a wonderful year together before he became seriously ill. He had learnt to value me when I broke loose and tested my independence. It was my falling in love with another man which made me capable of breaking loose, although that relationship didn't last. So something truly valuable came out of that extramarital relationship of mine. He as the BS learnt to value me which he had not done before.

 

Reconciling with my other exSO, who has intimacy and sexual issues, after he had an extramarital relationship, our relationship after reconcilation was okay. If you ask him, he will say it was better than it ever was. To me, it was still not enough. Thus I left him three years ago.

[White Flower]

The question really is what is the capacity of the relationship. No relationship can be made any better than what it has the resources to be.

 

I too reconciled with my exH after his EA but what I got back was not what I wanted, needed, loved the same in the end. The capacity or dynamics of the R had changed, I had changed, we both had changed to far to ever fix it.

 

The topic of this thread is Not getting enough or not giving enough? I was constantly giving in my M hoping that eventually he would give back one day.

 

That was stupid. I see that now.

 

But I didn't see it that way then, I just saw myself as a very caring, loving, and giving wife whose H would eventually take notice of it and appreciate it. I waited over a quarter of a century for that to happen. And sometimes this does happen, we hear it all the time in testimonials, interviews, and autobiographies. But when it doesn't happen for us and our needs outweigh our capacity to give anymore then we make a change. Sometimes that is D, sometimes that is A before D, etc.

 

And sometimes, the BS is not given the opportunity to step up to the plate before the WS steps out. Mine was, but I'm not sure the OP was given that chance.

[turnstone]

Yes, power is a very strong addiction. So now the question becomes: "Why did you feel so self-entitled?"

 

And that, unfortunately bespeaks an arrogant selfishness that would be extremely difficult to change, IMHO.

Ohyesohyesohyes!

 

You made the right choice my friend.

Ohyesohyesohyes!

 

 

I have reconciled with both my exSOs. The question really is what is the capacity of the relationship. No relationship can be made any better than what it has the resources to be.

And thrice I say........

 

I can't agree with this statement more, and I should imagine that's why many marriages manage to survive and go on to be better than ever after the devastation of an affair. Those marriages must have been born out of something extremely special.

[Spark1111]

Good topic, Spark.

 

Like in your situation, my H's A occurred after the death of a parent. He took it hard. He shutdown emotionally towards me and stopped participating in our life as a partner. He didn't do anything beyond what he had to do - go to work, eat, and sleep. I managed our home, bills, children, etc.. I hated being a married but single parent.

 

I remember distinctly, after d-day, him telling me that he felt all I wanted him for was his paycheck. It angered me because it was true as that was all he was giving. He gave nothing else but his paycheck to our life in the short period before and during his EA. This was brought up during therapy.

 

Our MC was good in that he asked my H some pretty straight-forward questions about our life together and what he did on a normal day. As my H answered the questions, he could see it was his choice to be a paycheck and his choice to consistently give less than what he was demanding. He started to pause as he answered the questions. I could see he was starting to get it.

 

And he never forgot it. I haven't forgotten it either. Its so easy to get wrapped up in our own sense of how much we are doing, only to find that we may be busy but we aren't doing anywhere near what we think we are doing for our families and relationships.

 

I think this was one of the most important things to come out of MC, because it applies to more than just a marital R. Sometimes we do give more than we are getting back (another MC concept is that successful marriages involve both partners giving more than they take in return), but most often we are holding ourselves back waiting for the other to give more.

 

Thanks for this NID.

 

It rings so true!

 

In addition to feeling like a paycheck, (all he was choosing to give at the time) my husband had a lot of misplaced anger towards me. He was projecting his internal anger over recent, uncontrollable events in our lives onto me the wife.

 

No shock there!

 

I remember the MC stopping him with every complaint and simply asking him: So that was Spark's fault?

 

Do you believe Spark was to blame for that, too?

 

Why do you believe Spark was responsible for that?

 

And I, too, could see him come to a very dramatic conclusion:

 

I have a tendency to blame others for my own shortcomings, rather than to deal with my issues directly. Hello conflict avoidance!

 

And that was huge. Because a necessary dynamic during the affair had been to villainize me so he could place a halo on her head. Partly to give himself permission; partly to assuage his guilt.

 

She NEVER criticized him; ALWAYS agreed with him; Hell, there was no conflict to either avoid or resolve during the affair.

 

It was the perfect fantasy for him.

[Spark1111]

I too reconciled with my exH after his EA but what I got back was not what I wanted, needed, loved the same in the end. The capacity or dynamics of the R had changed, I had changed, we both had changed to far to ever fix it.

 

The topic of this thread is Not getting enough or not giving enough? I was constantly giving in my M hoping that eventually he would give back one day.

 

That was stupid. I see that now.

 

But I didn't see it that way then, I just saw myself as a very caring, loving, and giving wife whose H would eventually take notice of it and appreciate it. I waited over a quarter of a century for that to happen. And sometimes this does happen, we hear it all the time in testimonials, interviews, and autobiographies. But when it doesn't happen for us and our needs outweigh our capacity to give anymore then we make a change. Sometimes that is D, sometimes that is A before D, etc.

 

And sometimes, the BS is not given the opportunity to step up to the plate before the WS steps out. Mine was, but I'm not sure the OP was given that chance.

 

This was me too, and I understand the capacity of a relationship. It takes two, fercryingoutloud!

 

I have always said that given the circumstances, I am amazed I didn't leave for good....I could have.

 

And I have recently read that it takes 5 kind loving compliments to overcome one criticism in a relationship. It has to me a mutual giving everday.

 

We need to treat our lovers with more kindness than we treat anyone else.

 

So many forget this. And you cannot force it.

[jennie-jennie]

She NEVER criticized him; ALWAYS agreed with him; Hell, there was no conflict to either avoid or resolve during the affair.

 

It was the perfect fantasy for him.

 

It seems they were not in the relationship long enough to show their true selves then. Given the relationship only lasted a year and a half, this could very well be the case. And the last half year he wanted out you have said. No good ground for a stable and honest relationship then.

[Spark1111]

It seems they were not in the relationship long enough to show their true selves then. Given the relationship only lasted a year and a half, this could very well be the case. And the last half year he wanted out you have said. No good ground for a stable and honest relationship then.

 

I agree Jennie!

 

One of the hardest questions for him to answer was: What sustained it?

 

And he shakes his head and says, "Hell, if I know."

 

But I think when things grew tough at home or with all the issues he was refusing to face, he'd run there.

 

Total escapism.

 

And she'd let him, for motivations and reasons I could only speculate upon. A future? A relief from lonliness? I really do not know.

[White Flower]

This was me too, and I understand the capacity of a relationship. It takes two, fercryingoutloud!

 

I have always said that given the circumstances, I am amazed I didn't leave for good....I could have.

 

And I have recently read that it takes 5 kind loving compliments to overcome one criticism in a relationship. It has to be a mutual giving everday.

 

We need to treat our lovers with more kindness than we treat anyone else.

 

So many forget this. And you cannot force it.

Excellent post and great advice for anyone contemplating M for the first time....or the next time;)

 

I've also read that a woman needs to be physically touched at least 8 times per day in order to feel emotionally stable, and more to feel emotionally hightened. If only H's were given this advice on their wedding day:rolleyes:

 

It seems they were not in the relationship long enough to show their true selves then. Given the relationship only lasted a year and a half, this could very well be the case. And the last half year he wanted out you have said. No good ground for a stable and honest relationship then.

 

I agree. MM and I were very cordial, I'd say, the first couple of years and THAT is what made the A sustainable, if you can call it that. Then was when we were both blissfully happy, but not in any deep kind of way. It was sort of like puppy-love. And if one of us had ended it, we would have suffered maybe a week or two and then moved on.

 

When my heart was getting really deep and I knew I had to end my M I also ended the A because I felt it wasn't for him what it was becoming for me. I was falling ever deeper in love and I think he was fighting that. That was ok with me, I didn't want to break up a M just because mine was breaking and I truly mean that. But I couldn't stay with him either, not being on equal footing. He let me go for about a week.

 

Then he came back full force, let down all his barriers, and we found true intimacy with real fights, real emotions, resulting in a real R and THAT is what has sustained us through these tough times. There is no way, what we had in those first two years, that we could have ever survived this last D-day, deaths, weddings, anniversairies, etc.

 

 

I agree Jennie!

 

One of the hardest questions for him to answer was: What sustained it?

 

And he shakes his head and says, "Hell, if I know."

 

But I think when things grew tough at home or with all the issues he was refusing to face, he'd run there.

 

Total escapism.

 

And she'd let him, for motivations and reasons I could only speculate upon. A future? A relief from lonliness? I really do not know.

I think what may have sustained it, however short-term it was, was the getting-to-know-you stage. It was new, interesting, and yes it had a future.

 

But on D-day, he realized his educated guess about a future with you was better than an educated guess at a future with her. So, it wasn't really sustainable, was it?

 

Her motivation? Could it have been love?