Not GETTING enough? Or not GIVING enough?

[Spark1111]

Yes but these two statements below, offset this in the way that ensures for compensating behaviour by the betrayed spouse, rather than any attempts by the WS to fix what's broken inside:

 

 

 

IC for the WS is also a must with the same dialogue for both therapists that both the marriage and his needs are important, but with the caveat of reasonability of needs.

 

One more concern about marriage repair post affair(s). Consider as inherent, the taste for risk within the WS. Is there a possibility of transference of risk/dopamine hit, from the affair partner to the betrayed spouse where with the betrayed spouse the risk is loss of security? So what happens when that fear of loss of security disappears when the betrayed spouse settles down from the betrayal and remains in the marriage?

 

Call me cynical but people are inherently selfish. If what's broken isn't fixed, it's just a bandaid.

 

Could not agree more.

 

Yes, the two are intertwined and dependent.

 

Yet, I think serious examination of the question, "How did the AP make you feel?" is not a slight to the BS, but rather an attempt to get the WS to examine why they took such a self-destructive risk.

 

Were you validated? Why did you need validation?

 

Were you flattered? Why did you need the flattery?

 

Did you communicate this to your spouse? Why or why not?

 

I found it somewhat of a comfort in that it HAD LESS to do with an actual person, than having some unvocalized need met by a stranger who became attracted to you.

 

It HELPS to identify the weakness in the WS, IMHO.

[September]

IMHO, a leopard never changes it's spots. When my xH and I were together, we had a few issues that really affected our marriage, the biggest was the way he spoke to me. We went to MC and he had IC. Sometimes, he would TRY to be better/nicer but he always resorted back to familiar behaviour. His family all speak to each other like crap, putting each other down constantly. It is a learned behaviour and for him, will never change. For many years I would say to him "one day, someone will come along and treat me with the love I deserve". He would laugh... Little did I realise that would actually happen!

 

Only now does he regret his actions, but I can't go back there knowing that in time he will be the same person, doing the same things. Because of his behaviour, I lost the love I felt for him. I am not proud of the fact that I had an affair but it was an exit for me. I stayed with my H because it was what I knew, it was easier to stay. I had been with him for 17 years.

 

The same applies for my xMM. He and I were extremely compatible and loved the same things. His W and I are complete opposites. She may try to give and provide the things that I gave to him that were obviously very lacking in their relationship, and not just intimacy/sex. In all honesty, how can she? You cannot be someone or something you are not, that would be acting and I imagine that to be very hard work.

[kuma]

MM's IC told him that if intimacy was not present EVER in the M, then it cannot be created now as it has proven itself not to be there.

 

I don't agree with this. I thought intimacy is a choice.

[threebyfate]

Could not agree more.

 

Yes, the two are intertwined and dependent.

 

Yet, I think serious examination of the question, "How did the AP make you feel?" is not a slight to the BS, but rather an attempt to get the WS to examine why they took such a self-destructive risk.

 

Were you validated? Why did you need validation?

 

Were you flattered? Why did you need the flattery?

 

Did you communicate this to your spouse? Why or why not?

 

I found it somewhat of a comfort in that it HAD LESS to do with an actual person, than having some unvocalized need met by a stranger who became attracted to you.

 

It HELPS to identify the weakness in the WS, IMHO.

It's all about perception and how far the individuals want to go in MC and how quickly the MC therapist wants to wrap this up with or without examination of external validation needs.

 

Requiring external validation to the degree of entering into an affair isn't something that 4, 6, 8, 10 or even 20 sessions of MC can fix. It's sourced from a lack of self-esteem which will erode on most elements within any relationship. The self-esteem issue is the house ablaze. MC only puts out the spot fires in the yard.

[Snowflower]

 

One more concern about marriage repair post affair(s). Consider as inherent, the taste for risk within the WS. Is there a possibility of transference of risk/dopamine hit, from the affair partner to the betrayed spouse where with the betrayed spouse the risk is loss of security? So what happens when that fear of loss of security disappears when the betrayed spouse settles down from the betrayal and remains in the marriage?

 

This makes a lot of sense but I don't think it's true that all WS have an inherent taste for risk.

 

Sure, some do like the risk but that has not been my personal experience and not something I worry about.

 

 

 

 

Could very well be that you Snowflower, are the stronger of the two.

 

Thank you spark. Actually a good friend of mine said the same thing to me very soon after we reconciled and I was still reeling emotionally. It's probably true in some aspects and my H admitted as much.

 

Do you think this is true in your situation as well, Spark? What are your thoughts about it?

[threebyfate]

This makes a lot of sense but I don't think it's true that all WS have an inherent taste for risk.

 

Sure, some do like the risk but that has not been my personal experience and not something I worry about.

Do you agree there's an element of risk of being caught, in all affairs?

 

(Of course this doesn't include open marriages or known affairs, whereby both parties have agreed to non-monogamy.)

[Snowflower]

Do you agree there's an element of risk of being caught, in all affairs?

 

(Of course this doesn't include open marriages or known affairs, whereby both parties have agreed to non-monogamy.)

 

This is difficult for me to answer since I've never cheated. But there is always the risk of getting caught when in an affair. I'm just not sure how aware the affair partners are of this fact.

 

Just reading the threads here tell different stories..."I can't believe my husband found out." or "I never thought we would get caught." or "His wife is clueless about the whole thing." Then the truth comes out.

 

I think affair partners are so caught up in the whole affair drama and their own emotions that they aren't giving much thought to anyone else but themselves, not thinking about the consequences, or getting caught!

Edited August 17, 2010 by Snowflower

[Spark1111]

IMHO, a leopard never changes it's spots. When my xH and I were together, we had a few issues that really affected our marriage, the biggest was the way he spoke to me. We went to MC and he had IC. Sometimes, he would TRY to be better/nicer but he always resorted back to familiar behaviour. His family all speak to each other like crap, putting each other down constantly. It is a learned behaviour and for him, will never change. For many years I would say to him "one day, someone will come along and treat me with the love I deserve". He would laugh... Little did I realise that would actually happen!

 

Only now does he regret his actions, but I can't go back there knowing that in time he will be the same person, doing the same things. Because of his behaviour, I lost the love I felt for him. I am not proud of the fact that I had an affair but it was an exit for me. I stayed with my H because it was what I knew, it was easier to stay. I had been with him for 17 years.

 

The same applies for my xMM. He and I were extremely compatible and loved the same things. His W and I are complete opposites. She may try to give and provide the things that I gave to him that were obviously very lacking in their relationship, and not just intimacy/sex. In all honesty, how can she? You cannot be someone or something you are not, that would be acting and I imagine that to be very hard work.

 

A leopard can only change their spots if they really, really want to. I agree.

 

There is going to therapy to pay lip service to a percieved problem; make nice and then revert to old patterns when the storm blows over.

 

Uh uh. Doesn't work. As you can surely attest to.

 

Then there is attending therapy to really do the hard work of changing behavior permanently because it isn't working for you. This can be a very painful but productive process, if you are sufficiently motivated to enact positive healthy changes in your life. Few do it well. It takes a lot of courage.

 

Also, you may very well be the opposite of MM's wife. Shirley Glass says this is a pretty common component in affairs; choosing the opposite of what you have had --not in looks, but in personality.

[Spark1111]

It's all about perception and how far the individuals want to go in MC and how quickly the MC therapist wants to wrap this up with or without examination of external validation needs.

 

Requiring external validation to the degree of entering into an affair isn't something that 4, 6, 8, 10 or even 20 sessions of MC can fix. It's sourced from a lack of self-esteem which will erode on most elements within any relationship. The self-esteem issue is the house ablaze. MC only puts out the spot fires in the yard.

 

I agree and it is what can make marriage counseling so uncomfortable, especially after an affair.

 

But the marriage is the client, NOT the two individuals. And it will not work well until the self-esteem issues and self-entitlement is addressed in IC. That the rub.

[Spark1111]

This makes a lot of sense but I don't think it's true that all WS have an inherent taste for risk.

 

Sure, some do like the risk but that has not been my personal experience and not something I worry about.

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you spark. Actually a good friend of mine said the same thing to me very soon after we reconciled and I was still reeling emotionally. It's probably true in some aspects and my H admitted as much.

 

Do you think this is true in your situation as well, Spark? What are your thoughts about it?

 

I do now. I have heard it from friends, family and counselors ad nauseum.

 

My husband too.

 

So while I suppose it is true, I resent it on some level. I'm tired of it, though I do not think inner strength is something you choose or unchoose for yourself.

 

And when I feel it is being relied upon too heavily by others, from spouse to husband to counselors, I remind them very pointedly, "Uh, not so much anymore."

[Snowflower]

I do now. I have heard it from friends, family and counselors ad nauseum.

 

My husband too.

 

So while I suppose it is true, I resent it on some level. I'm tired of it, though I do not think inner strength is something you choose or unchoose for yourself.

 

And when I feel it is being relied upon too heavily by others, from spouse to husband to counselors, I remind them very pointedly, "Uh, not so much anymore."

 

It gets tiring doesn't it? But spark maybe look at your inner strength as a gift that you can share with people who you love...such as your children, friends, your husband, etc.

 

Does your husband attempt to lighten the emotional load now? My H does try to do this--even better than he did pre-affair and he did pretty good back then.

 

Nowadays if I'm stressed or upset, he tries to shoulder some of the emotional burden for me. It's a relief for me.

[White Flower]

Yes, I agree with this.

 

What is telling to me is, why marry someone you have no feelings of intimacy towards?

It's a valid question!

 

I think the simple answer is youth. We just don't know intimacy as young adults the way we understand it as older adults.

 

We only understand hormones at that early age, which are so exaggeratedly important in youth. MM has said it a thousand times, that they had raging hormones and after the newness wore off (and he was already M), there was no real intimate connection. But Catholic Guilt kept him there and I'm sure on her part love kept her there. That is how it has lasted, sadly.

[White Flower]

This is where marriage counselling is limited since its nature is to repair the marriage at any cost. If you consider a marriage, it's comprised of two individuals. Each individual either pre/during/post affair is broken in some way. The individuals need to be fixed first or you're just putting out small fires in the yard rather than putting out the blaze that's consuming the house.

 

Net result of MC appears to be that the betrayed spouse must compensate for the lack within the wayward spouse.

I have to agree with you here, if the counselor misses the mark. A good counselor will focus on the wayward partner's issues and deal with that long and hard before bringing in the BS. And it's not always about blaming the BS for the A, sometimes it just helps the BS understand their WS better, and how to deal with them in better ways.

[White Flower]

I don't agree with this. I thought intimacy is a choice.

You will have to quantify this statement for it to make sense because I am quite sure we are not talking about the same thing.

[White Flower]

A leopard can only change their spots if they really, really want to. I agree.

 

There is going to therapy to pay lip service to a percieved problem; make nice and then revert to old patterns when the storm blows over.

 

Uh uh. Doesn't work. As you can surely attest to.

 

Then there is attending therapy to really do the hard work of changing behavior permanently because it isn't working for you. This can be a very painful but productive process, if you are sufficiently motivated to enact positive healthy changes in your life. Few do it well. It takes a lot of courage.

 

Also, you may very well be the opposite of MM's wife. Shirley Glass says this is a pretty common component in affairs; choosing the opposite of what you have had --not in looks, but in personality.

I agree with the whole post, except the bolded part. I can be just the reverse or the opposite extreme as well. MM's W and I are both very caring people (he has never told me how caring she is but there's always a way to find out;)) but we look nothing alike even though, interestingly, we have similar ethnic background mixes.

[Spark1111]

Yes, the first part rings very true for me. My exH complained like mad about what he wasn't getting from me whilst withholding too much himself.

 

But as far as asking the question 'how did your AP make you feel?' and attempting to recreate that feeling, I believe it would not only be impossible in many if not all cases, but I'm not sure how desirable it would be anyway. Would I really want the success of my marriage to be based, even partly, on the feeling that its 'forbidden', 'naughty', 'dirty'? Because its that aspect that drives many WS including my exH.

 

Yes, I know there are many motivating factors for a person to make the choice to have an affair and then continue it, but I can't think of one that would benefit any marriage I may have.

 

 

 

That's very self-aware of you and to be highly commended. Not everyone has that humility.

 

Turnstone, if it is dirty, naughty or forbidden driving the decision to cheat, well then I/we have just learned something, haven't we?

 

Someone is still rebelling against a mean mommy or daddy, and maybe that would be the place to start successful therapy.

 

Or if the AP made them feel strong, or smart, or handsome?

 

It is a place to start, not only IC, but the weakness that has made the WS susceptible in the first place.

 

It is almost NEVER about the AP.....It is about the need within the WS that they fed.

[kuma]

You will have to quantify this statement for it to make sense because I am quite sure we are not talking about the same thing.

 

WF, I was just commenting on his IC's opinion re: intimacy. IMO, intimacy is a choice. It can be created if your MM chooses to have intimacy with his wife. Just my opinion, don't get mad at me. This is off-topic. Sorry OP.

[silktricks]

Thank you spark. Actually a good friend of mine said the same thing to me very soon after we reconciled and I was still reeling emotionally. It's probably true in some aspects and my H admitted as much.

 

Do you think this is true in your situation as well, Spark? What are your thoughts about it?

 

In regards to strength, I think that many/most people will say the non-wayward spouse is stronger - but IMO that's simply because most people say it.

 

There are many kinds of strength and many moments in time. No one person in a relationship is always stronger. The key to a good harmonious marriage IMO, is recognizing when we are weak - especially weak in regards to the possible entry of a 3rd person into the relationship. And either discuss that weakness with your spouse or else (if that isn't feasible) head off the weakness in other ways (like avoidance).

 

But if you start walking around thinking you're so strong then you're likely to get smashed in the face with something.

[White Flower]

WF, I was just commenting on his IC's opinion re: intimacy. IMO, intimacy is a choice. It can be created if your MM chooses to have intimacy with his wife. Just my opinion, don't get mad at me. This is off-topic. Sorry OP.

Aw, I'm not mad . Just wanted you to clarify your meaning. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on it though. From my experience, intimacy is developed over time. I chose to answer my lover's calls, (be it MM or H or BF...), I chose to sleep with him, but I did not choose to fall in love with him.

 

Once I was in love, real intimacy began to develop. I'm not talking about just an emotional bond nor just a physical bond. I had that with my exH. I'm talking about something much deeper, something that pulls down barriers and sets you free.

 

To bring this back on topic, I feel that most wanderers are looking for this powerful feeling. They MAY find it outside their M and they may discover it was always there for the taking, they just didn't know how to take it. I think this happened in Spark's and Seren's Ms. And they're very lucky indeed.

 

MM had IC long before I came into the picture. He TRIED many times to make the intimacy happen with his W. Although she is a great woman, it just didn't happen with her for him.

[Spark1111]

I have to agree with you here, if the counselor misses the mark. A good counselor will focus on the wayward partner's issues and deal with that long and hard before bringing in the BS. And it's not always about blaming the BS for the A, sometimes it just helps the BS understand their WS better, and how to deal with them in better ways.

 

Ahh, but here is the problem with a too-early hyper focus on the WS's issues...They are the least likely to know what their issues are. They just had an affair! So we know they avoid their own isues and avoid conflict at all costs!

 

If they become the hyperfocus too early in MC, they run for the hills!

[Spark1111]

It gets tiring doesn't it? But spark maybe look at your inner strength as a gift that you can share with people who you love...such as your children, friends, your husband, etc.

 

Does your husband attempt to lighten the emotional load now? My H does try to do this--even better than he did pre-affair and he did pretty good back then.

 

Nowadays if I'm stressed or upset, he tries to shoulder some of the emotional burden for me. It's a relief for me.

 

Oh definitely...I am amazed how in so many ways, he now shoulders our burdens.

[Spark1111]

In regards to strength, I think that many/most people will say the non-wayward spouse is stronger - but IMO that's simply because most people say it.

 

There are many kinds of strength and many moments in time. No one person in a relationship is always stronger. The key to a good harmonious marriage IMO, is recognizing when we are weak - especially weak in regards to the possible entry of a 3rd person into the relationship. And either discuss that weakness with your spouse or else (if that isn't feasible) head off the weakness in other ways (like avoidance).

 

But if you start walking around thinking you're so strong then you're likely to get smashed in the face with something.

 

Can't disagree with this! I have actually learned to admit my weaknesses and vulnerabilities with greater ease. Learning to do that was no easy task for me.

 

And the smash in the face, learning of the existance of a 3rd person in our marriage, came at a time I perceived we were happily climbing out of our rabbit hole, all to the admiration of friends and family who described us as "two ends of a barbell."

 

I thought we were invincible. I thought wrong. And that has been a very humbling realization for both of us.

[Snowflower]

In regards to strength, I think that many/most people will say the non-wayward spouse is stronger - but IMO that's simply because most people say it.

 

There are many kinds of strength and many moments in time. No one person in a relationship is always stronger. The key to a good harmonious marriage IMO, is recognizing when we are weak - especially weak in regards to the possible entry of a 3rd person into the relationship. And either discuss that weakness with your spouse or else (if that isn't feasible) head off the weakness in other ways (like avoidance).

 

But if you start walking around thinking you're so strong then you're likely to get smashed in the face with something.

 

Well said!

 

Please don't misunderstand...I'm not saying that I was the "strong" one and my H was the "weak" one. Not at all. We all have weaknesses and strengths and to this day, despite everything, I think what my H did was out of character for him. (not defending him, just sharing my POV based on what I experienced)

[jennie-jennie]

Read one of the gurus in infidelity and cannot remember if it was Dr. Shirley Glass or author Peggy Vaughn.

 

But here is the statement:

 

"Most WSs discover through IC or MC, that where before the affair started they felt they were not getting enough of their needs met in the marital relationship, usually find out that they were not giving enough."

 

She goes onto explain that if they devoted the same effort to the marriage as they did to the affair, the spouse would usually be thrilled with those changes of time, affection, intimacy.

She also notes that the MOST important question to ask is, "how did your affair partner make you feel?"

 

Because if the spouse can recreate that feeling in the marital relationship, the fWS is thrilled.

 

This rings true to me.

 

Thoughts?

 

Interesting, because that is exactly the definition Alberoni has for "selfish" love: we love the person that makes us feel good.

 

I put in that effort into my relationship with my exSO for many, many years, but I just was not getting enough. For some WSs what you say might be true, but for others it is not.

[White Flower]

Ahh, but here is the problem with a too-early hyper focus on the WS's issues...They are the least likely to know what their issues are. They just had an affair! So we know they avoid their own isues and avoid conflict at all costs!

 

If they become the hyperfocus too early in MC, they run for the hills!

Hmm, I thought the A was the hills? And now they're coming down after D-day to deal with going AWOL?