Spark1111 Posted August 16, 2010 Posted August 16, 2010 Read one of the gurus in infidelity and cannot remember if it was Dr. Shirley Glass or author Peggy Vaughn. But here is the statement: "Most WSs discover through IC or MC, that where before the affair started they felt they were not getting enough of their needs met in the marital relationship, usually find out that they were not giving enough." She goes onto explain that if they devoted the same effort to the marriage as they did to the affair, the spouse would usually be thrilled with those changes of time, affection, intimacy. She also notes that the MOST important question to ask is, "how did your affair partner make you feel?" Because if the spouse can recreate that feeling in the marital relationship, the fWS is thrilled. This rings true to me. Thoughts?
YellowShark Posted August 16, 2010 Posted August 16, 2010 This is true generally. BUT... The husband and wife are 50% responsible for what happens in the marriage. The wayward spouse is 100% responsible for the affair. The CORRECT/HEALTHY answer to "not getting enough needs met in the marital relationship" is communication with the spouse to get it... not banging some other person OUTSIDE the relationship - (which always destroys the relationship further.)
threebyfate Posted August 16, 2010 Posted August 16, 2010 People will find any reason to rationalize weakness in character and selfishness.
Snowflower Posted August 16, 2010 Posted August 16, 2010 She also notes that the MOST important question to ask is, "how did your affair partner make you feel?" Because if the spouse can recreate that feeling in the marital relationship, the fWS is thrilled. This rings true to me. Thoughts? I get the jist of what you are saying here, Spark and agree with some of it. But if I had had that conversation with my husband...how did the affair partner make him feel...I probably would have been hurt beyond words and it wouldn't have helped our recovery. And if I had found out what she was "providing" to him in the affair, I would have been even less inclined to try to provide that to him in the marriage. I would have felt like I was competing with the OW in order to get him to work on our relationship. I was so not doing that.
White Flower Posted August 16, 2010 Posted August 16, 2010 Read one of the gurus in infidelity and cannot remember if it was Dr. Shirley Glass or author Peggy Vaughn. But here is the statement: "Most WSs discover through IC or MC, that where before the affair started they felt they were not getting enough of their needs met in the marital relationship, usually find out that they were not giving enough." She goes onto explain that if they devoted the same effort to the marriage as they did to the affair, the spouse would usually be thrilled with those changes of time, affection, intimacy. She also notes that the MOST important question to ask is, "how did your affair partner make you feel?" Because if the spouse can recreate that feeling in the marital relationship, the fWS is thrilled. This rings true to me. Thoughts? MM's IC told him that if intimacy was not present EVER in the M, then it cannot be created now as it has proven itself not to be there.
White Flower Posted August 16, 2010 Posted August 16, 2010 People will find any reason to rationalize weakness in character and selfishness. If your H could no longer provide, let's say, honesty to you trust me you'd go find it elsewhere AND you would definitely rationalize it. And I don't know why it is always stated that 'weaknesses are rationalized'. Weaknesses just are. Hopefully we deal with them once we discover what they are. But this is a thread about self-discovery during IC/MC after reconciliation so let's stay on topic.
threebyfate Posted August 16, 2010 Posted August 16, 2010 If your H could no longer provide, let's say, honesty to you trust me you'd go find it elsewhere AND you would definitely rationalize it. And I don't know why it is always stated that 'weaknesses are rationalized'. Weaknesses just are. Hopefully we deal with them once we discover what they are. But this is a thread about self-discovery during IC/MC after reconciliation so let's stay on topic.I'd be out of the marriage if he couldn't provide. Dragging in a third-party through deceit, is neither my style or preference. Reasonability of needs is tantamount to a successful marriage and dragging in a third-party won't change the underlying issues which include weakness of character and selfishness.
White Flower Posted August 16, 2010 Posted August 16, 2010 I'd be out of the marriage if he couldn't provide. Dragging in a third-party through deceit, is neither my style or preference. Reasonability of needs is tantamount to a successful marriage and dragging in a third-party won't change the underlying issues which include weakness of character and selfishness. I have no problem with your argument, in fact I agree with it! I just thought it was off-topic.
threebyfate Posted August 16, 2010 Posted August 16, 2010 I have no problem with your argument, in fact I agree with it! I just thought it was off-topic.It's applicable to this phrase in the opening post. And anyways, when did you become the thread police? "Most WSs discover through IC or MC, that where before the affair started they felt they were not getting enough of their needs met in the marital relationship, usually find out that they were not giving enough."
White Flower Posted August 16, 2010 Posted August 16, 2010 It's applicable to this phrase in the opening post. And anyways, when did you become the thread police? I usually stick with the posters ending question, and don't focus on opening phrases. I hate seeing good threads getting lost due to off-topic posts.
Author Spark1111 Posted August 16, 2010 Author Posted August 16, 2010 This is true generally. BUT... The husband and wife are 50% responsible for what happens in the marriage. The wayward spouse is 100% responsible for the affair. The CORRECT/HEALTHY answer to "not getting enough needs met in the marital relationship" is communication with the spouse to get it... not banging some other person OUTSIDE the relationship - (which always destroys the relationship further.) You will get no argument from me on this topic. My H went through a very difficult time; professionally, physically, death of a parent. The marriage and we as a couple suffered trying to survive the fireballs being hurled at us. I agree with you. He never communicated to me the depths of his despair or why I was lumped into the whole mix. But there it is.
threebyfate Posted August 16, 2010 Posted August 16, 2010 I usually stick with the posters ending question, and don't focus on opening phrases. I hate seeing good threads getting lost due to off-topic posts.Do you mean like what's happening now, where you keep dragging the thread off-topic to attempt to control how people should interpret the opening post, your way or the highway? The question from the opening poster is "Thoughts?", so I provided my thoughts on her post which includes incorporating the nuance of her thread header. Anyways sparks, I disagree that the betrayed spouse should mirror the OW/OMs actions. If you consider an affair in its entirety, it's about as dysfunctional a dynamic as a relationship can get.
Author Spark1111 Posted August 16, 2010 Author Posted August 16, 2010 I get the jist of what you are saying here, Spark and agree with some of it. But if I had had that conversation with my husband...how did the affair partner make him feel...I probably would have been hurt beyond words and it wouldn't have helped our recovery. And if I had found out what she was "providing" to him in the affair, I would have been even less inclined to try to provide that to him in the marriage. I would have felt like I was competing with the OW in order to get him to work on our relationship. I was so not doing that. Oh no! I would never compete with a person! The question is designed to help a fWS try to understand the "WHY" of the affair. It is NOT SPECIFIC to the AP, but to try and help the fWS understand what the initial attraction was all about: Attention? Flattery? Being a hero and therefore, appreciated? In our case, she provided all of the above on a very intense level. I can handle that, because at that point in our marriage, I was so busy trying to SURVIVE our financial and professional pitfalls, plus kids, who HAD TIME to make him feel like a hero? Not me. But there it is.
Author Spark1111 Posted August 16, 2010 Author Posted August 16, 2010 MM's IC told him that if intimacy was not present EVER in the M, then it cannot be created now as it has proven itself not to be there. Yes, I agree with this. What is telling to me is, why marry someone you have no feelings of intimacy towards?
Author Spark1111 Posted August 16, 2010 Author Posted August 16, 2010 I'd be out of the marriage if he couldn't provide. Dragging in a third-party through deceit, is neither my style or preference. Reasonability of needs is tantamount to a successful marriage and dragging in a third-party won't change the underlying issues which include weakness of character and selfishness. Okay, could be. But if you are trying to succesfully re-build Humpty-Dumpty back together again, I believe examining the why is crucial. And I too, at one time, declared I would NEVER stay with him if he cheated on me. But look. We are together happier than we have ever been. So, it is working.
Snowflower Posted August 16, 2010 Posted August 16, 2010 Oh no! I would never compete with a person! The question is designed to help a fWS try to understand the "WHY" of the affair. It is NOT SPECIFIC to the AP, but to try and help the fWS understand what the initial attraction was all about: Attention? Flattery? Being a hero and therefore, appreciated? In our case, she provided all of the above on a very intense level. I can handle that, because at that point in our marriage, I was so busy trying to SURVIVE our financial and professional pitfalls, plus kids, who HAD TIME to make him feel like a hero? Not me. But there it is. I worded my first post a bit poorly but I did mean that I would feel like I was being compared to whatever had gone on in the affair relationship. TBF worded it a little more closely to what I was getting at: Anyways sparks, I disagree that the betrayed spouse should mirror the OW/OMs actions. If you consider an affair in its entirety, it's about as dysfunctional a dynamic as a relationship can get. After we reconciled, my H and I were staring at our own relationship, laid out to the bare bones. We discussed for countless hours what went wrong between us, what we each needed, etc. This went on for weeks in those early days. IMO, comparing our relationship to what went on in that dysfunctional relationship was very unpalatable to me. I didn't want to "use" anything from that dyfunction in our relationship; my H and I needed to figure it out for ourselves. I can't agree with the therapists here.
threebyfate Posted August 16, 2010 Posted August 16, 2010 Okay, could be. But if you are trying to succesfully re-build Humpty-Dumpty back together again, I believe examining the why is crucial. And I too, at one time, declared I would NEVER stay with him if he cheated on me. But look. We are together happier than we have ever been. So, it is working.This is where marriage counselling is limited since its nature is to repair the marriage at any cost. If you consider a marriage, it's comprised of two individuals. Each individual either pre/during/post affair is broken in some way. The individuals need to be fixed first or you're just putting out small fires in the yard rather than putting out the blaze that's consuming the house. Net result of MC appears to be that the betrayed spouse must compensate for the lack within the wayward spouse.
Author Spark1111 Posted August 16, 2010 Author Posted August 16, 2010 I worded my first post a bit poorly but I did mean that I would feel like I was being compared to whatever had gone on in the affair relationship. TBF worded it a little more closely to what I was getting at: After we reconciled, my H and I were staring at our own relationship, laid out to the bare bones. We discussed for countless hours what went wrong between us, what we each needed, etc. This went on for weeks in those early days. IMO, comparing our relationship to what went on in that dysfunctional relationship was very unpalatable to me. I didn't want to "use" anything from that dyfunction in our relationship; my H and I needed to figure it out for ourselves. I can't agree with the therapists here. But isn't it possible, in stripping it out to the bare bones and laying it all out, your H might have realized a need he had not verbalized to you before? Because I think we both did this too! And if he needed more of my time, my attention and/or my appreciation of him, I'm okay with that too. I was okay with ANYTHING being verbalized after we decided to reconcile. I didn't want to go back to those years prior to his A. But I personally would hope that a spouse who risks everything for an affair would learn something from it; would learn the "why" of it. Obviously, you can see I am of the camp that affairs "don't just happen."
Author Spark1111 Posted August 16, 2010 Author Posted August 16, 2010 This is where marriage counselling is limited since its nature is to repair the marriage at any cost. If you consider a marriage, it's comprised of two individuals. Each individual either pre/during/post affair is broken in some way. The individuals need to be fixed first or you're just putting out small fires in the yard rather than putting out the blaze that's consuming the house. Net result of MC appears to be that the betrayed spouse must compensate for the lack within the wayward spouse. Ok...I'll bite. How do you propose fixing it? How do you propose fixing the "broken" spouse?
threebyfate Posted August 16, 2010 Posted August 16, 2010 Ok...I'll bite. How do you propose fixing it? How do you propose fixing the "broken" spouse?MC should be done in conjunction with IC with discussions during MC and IC about both therapies and the strong emphasis to both therapists that the marriage and YOU matter too. Don't get sucked into compensating behaviours since this would be the easy out for both the MC therapist and the WS.
Snowflower Posted August 16, 2010 Posted August 16, 2010 But isn't it possible, in stripping it out to the bare bones and laying it all out, your H might have realized a need he had not verbalized to you before? Oh undoubtedly! I had needs that I hadn't expressed or wasn't fully aware of either. You see, our pre-affair marriage was not working for either of us but we were slow to realize it. I'm not going down that path of, "well, I wasn't getting my needs met and yet I didn't cheat." Because that's kind of a moot point. Because I think we both did this too! And if he needed more of my time, my attention and/or my appreciation of him, I'm okay with that too. I was okay with ANYTHING being verbalized after we decided to reconcile. I didn't want to go back to those years prior to his A. But I personally would hope that a spouse who risks everything for an affair would learn something from it; would learn the "why" of it. Oh yeah, I know my H learned a lot about himself and relationships from the last couple of years. But in order for me to continue in the marriage with him, he needed to do the hard work on himself as we worked on us. I didn't want the now-defunct affair relationship to be any part of our new marriage. So I guess I don't understand why do some therapists say to look to the affair relationship for the answers? That's what bugs me about this and some forms of therapy. I'm not trying to be argumentative! Obviously, you can see I am of the camp that affairs "don't just happen." I wasn't in that camp at first, but I slowly became a member!
Author Spark1111 Posted August 16, 2010 Author Posted August 16, 2010 MC should be done in conjunction with IC with discussions during MC and IC about both therapies and the strong emphasis to both therapists that the marriage and YOU matter too. Don't get sucked into compensating behaviours since this would be the easy out for both the MC therapist and the WS. Well, of course. Isn't that the title of the thread? That the WS was the one who was not giving enough of themselves to their spouse and the marriage? While complaining how miserable they are to a third party?
Snowflower Posted August 16, 2010 Posted August 16, 2010 MC should be done in conjunction with IC with discussions during MC and IC about both therapies and the strong emphasis to both therapists that the marriage and YOU matter too. Don't get sucked into compensating behaviours since this would be the easy out for both the MC therapist and the WS. Interesting. I think a lot of therapy does do this very thing...one partner has to compensate for the other...it is the easy way out. I felt this to an extent in my own MC...I was practically told by our MC, "look your husband is really sorry (very true) and he is a really good guy (very true), so can YOU just get over it already?" It had only been 6 months at that point. My H and I never returned for another session. Instead, we continued and still continue to do the hard work on our own.
threebyfate Posted August 16, 2010 Posted August 16, 2010 Well, of course. Isn't that the title of the thread? That the WS was the one who was not giving enough of themselves to their spouse and the marriage? While complaining how miserable they are to a third party?Yes but these two statements below, offset this in the way that ensures for compensating behaviour by the betrayed spouse, rather than any attempts by the WS to fix what's broken inside: She also notes that the MOST important question to ask is, "how did your affair partner make you feel?" Because if the spouse can recreate that feeling in the marital relationship, the fWS is thrilled. IC for the WS is also a must with the same dialogue for both therapists that both the marriage and his needs are important, but with the caveat of reasonability of needs. One more concern about marriage repair post affair(s). Consider as inherent, the taste for risk within the WS. Is there a possibility of transference of risk/dopamine hit, from the affair partner to the betrayed spouse where with the betrayed spouse the risk is loss of security? So what happens when that fear of loss of security disappears when the betrayed spouse settles down from the betrayal and remains in the marriage? Call me cynical but people are inherently selfish. If what's broken isn't fixed, it's just a bandaid.
Author Spark1111 Posted August 16, 2010 Author Posted August 16, 2010 Interesting. I think a lot of therapy does do this very thing...one partner has to compensate for the other...it is the easy way out. I felt this to an extent in my own MC...I was practically told by our MC, "look your husband is really sorry (very true) and he is a really good guy (very true), so can YOU just get over it already?" It had only been 6 months at that point. My H and I never returned for another session. Instead, we continued and still continue to do the hard work on our own. I wouldn't have gone back either. But here is a recurring theme in MC.....the WS IS THE WEAKER OF THE TWO. More broken...more out of touch with their needs....needing more intensive IC. Because if you are already in pain, there can be no choice more destructive than embarking on an affair to fix the internal pain. Not talking exit affairs here.... And yes, the MC is trying to save the marriage while the WS does some much overdue work in IC. Is it fair? Absolutely not. Is it true? Could very well be that you Snowflower, are the stronger of the two.
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