Forgiving but not forgetting

[jj33]

It occurs to me that while forgiveness is a pure and wonderful thing that sometimes we become our own worst enemy when we forgive and forget.

 

Reading some of the threads and dealing with some of the things I do in my daily life I hear about women's situations and think in a million years I would NEVER put up with that I would NEVER stand for that.

 

Its always easier to say that when its not you.

 

But if the MM who broke your heart came back and said I am here, I am single now I love you so sorry for the troubles of the past would you forgive:

 

the lying

the being thrown under a bus

the being jerked around

the manipulation

and all sorts of other things (insert your situation here)

 

Occurs to me that for many the question is what would it take NOT to forgive him and that forgiving is great (bad to give free head space to someone who has hurt you) its the forgetting to the extent that you allow history to repeat itself that is a problem.

 

 

What would it take for us to NOT forgive these men....

 

 

Thoughts?

[fooled once]

It occurs to me that while forgiveness is a pure and wonderful thing that sometimes we become our own worst enemy when we forgive and forget.

 

Reading some of the threads and dealing with some of the things I do in my daily life I hear about women's situations and think in a million years I would NEVER put up with that I would NEVER stand for that.

 

Its always easier to say that when its not you.

 

But if the MM who broke your heart came back and said I am here, I am single now I love you so sorry for the troubles of the past would you forgive:

 

the lying

the being thrown under a bus

the being jerked around

the manipulation

and all sorts of other things (insert your situation here)

 

Occurs to me that for many the question is what would it take NOT to forgive him and that forgiving is great (bad to give free head space to someone who has hurt you) its the forgetting to the extent that you allow history to repeat itself that is a problem.

 

 

What would it take for us to NOT forgive these men....

 

 

Thoughts?

 

No, I would not forget. I forgive, but I don't trust easily and once that trust is broken SO badly, I would not allow myself to reopen up because chances are, it will happen again.

 

I have a list of non-negotiables -- breaking that trust is on my list. The lying, the deceiving, the hurting, etc.

 

Even had I not gotten married, if the MM I was involved with came to me (which he did and I said NO), the answer would still be no. There was no way I could ever trust him again to NOT hurt me that badly again.

 

I think there comes a point of no return. You can forgive someone for the hurt they caused, but I personally wouldn't allow them a second chance to do it again.

[jj33]

Youre very grounded Fooled thats why we love you.

 

I have to say I worry that the reason its taken me so long to break free of the mental hold of the past is that I "understand" and rationalize on his behalf.

 

I read things in other peoples threads and say no way thats crazy but we all think our own situations are somehow different (not all of us just those that have this issue).

 

I was reading something and thought wow if you would forgive that you would forgive anything and then I realized if a friend had come to me with my situation 2 years ago, they would have said hang on. Dont do that. Its not good for you.Dont let him off the hook like that (not to get back together but to even consider giving him a chance if he had left). And I didnt see it.

 

Maybe its neediness maybe its low self esteem I dont know.

 

Even now if he came back full of sincere apologies, explanations a divorce and a vow to make things right I dont know that I would say no. After

everything. It scares me. It scares me that I have started having dreams about him again. Dreams that are so realistic that I wake up in the morning thinking we are still together. Last night I dreamt that he had the house valued and was finalizing his property settlement with his W. (you'll know its a possibility when you read in the paper that pigs were seen flying over Antartica)

 

Yes Ive been to counselling and went back this summer in despair that the dreams were back again in full force. I can only tell myself what I tell everyone else SNAP OUT OF IT

[xxxheartbrokenxxx]

I have had this thought before.

 

What could they do to ultimately make you stop wanting them? Just how bad would they have to be?

 

If I found out that xMM had committed a terrible crime then I think this would be enough to make me feel repulsed by him and stop wanting him.

 

Sad that it would take THAT much

[xxxheartbrokenxxx]

Youre very grounded Fooled thats why we love you.

 

Yes I admire her for being so strong minded and having strict personal boundaries of what is acceptable treatment/behaviour and what is not.

[jj33]

Its not a good trait. Its self destructive to forgive and forget to the point that you give someone who has repeatedly hurt you the chance to do it again and again.

 

Its a question of when does self preservation kick in?

 

I was strong enough to end it when it was time to do so, and not let him back with empty promises but not strong enough to erase the residual feelings and that has been my undoing.

[piscis]

I have been thinking for a while what on earth do I need to live with him juste to end the R.

On another thread someone posted that when the cost outweighs the benefit, and we RECOGNIZE that, we finally cut ties, the hard part is recognizing it and people can stuck tgehr days, weeks, months or years.

 

My thoughts about forgiving and forgetting is that people show who they are and for our own sake we should not forget.

Being able to forgive after time has passed is possible IMO, but you should not forget (and I do not mean you should always bring things to your mind and suffer and feel miserable, what I mean is that we must try not to forget that after people have shown to us who they are we must nos expect for them to change).

 

In my personal situation as much as I love and truly care about my MM I know I would not be able in case he was available to have a lasting R with him, I would not trust him, I would always think when he goes on bussiness trips if it was a 3 days trip and he made it a 4 day trip to spend one night with someone else, if he uses the opportunity to call someone else while I am not nearby (as he stays with me and calls me when his W is not around), so no, I do not blame him, I knew his status an accepted a R like that but I truly think that he will cheat on me as he is cheating on her.

 

And I must join you all when you say Fooled you are really great!!

[Silly_Girl]

It occurs to me that while forgiveness is a pure and wonderful thing that sometimes we become our own worst enemy when we forgive and forget.

 

I am genuinely frightened of becoming bitter, anti-men and full of suspicion and cynicism. I often find that I tend not to see qualities in people that I wish to emulate; but instead I see things I am desperate to avoid, and that negativity is one of those things I am determined not to take on, that I have seen in girlfriends, colleagues and acquaintances. And in turn I think I can allow boundaries to be crossed.

 

Reading some of the threads and dealing with some of the things I do in my daily life I hear about women's situations and think in a million years I would NEVER put up with that I would NEVER stand for that.

 

Boy, do I do that!!!!

 

Its always easier to say that when its not you.

 

Innit just! My best friend is having some 'interesting times' currently. And MM and I will chat about it and find various points of concern, and sometimes even talk about how we think we would deal, or how things should be done; but we're both acutely aware that my best friend will (rightly) be equally as concered about me (and as disappointed in my choice of love interest).

 

But if the MM who broke your heart came back and said I am here, I am single now I love you so sorry for the troubles of the past would you forgive:

 

During NC I cried to my counsellor that while I spent my days and nights wishing he'd get in touch, a small but alert portion of my brain was very much hoping he never did get in touch. "Because I don't think I can say No to him..." I wailed. How pathetic. I hated myself right there. I was happy I could recognise it and why I had those feelings, but disappointed to be such a weak mess!

 

the lying

the being thrown under a bus

the being jerked around

the manipulation

and all sorts of other things (insert your situation here)

 

He went away for two days in May, with his wife, turned his phone off and didn't contact me again. That's the first one. I don't remember ever being so upset as that time. I haven't forgiven that yet. I don't think about it often, but when I do I'm extremely aware of what state I was in, and the impact his actions had.

 

Since then, he promised he would tell his wife about he and I, and that he was moving away. He tried twice, but did not manage to keep his promise. That was a few days ago. As yet, I am still not ready to chuck in the towel.

 

Occurs to me that for many the question is what would it take NOT to forgive him and that forgiving is great (bad to give free head space to someone who has hurt you) its the forgetting to the extent that you allow history to repeat itself that is a problem.

 

 

What would it take for us to NOT forgive these men....

 

 

Thoughts?

 

To not forgive? I can say easily what that is. But then I wonder... I think I set boundaries not so long ago (not to him, to myself) and I'm pretty sure they've been left by the wayside...

 

This is no fun.

 

No, I would not forget. I forgive, but I don't trust easily and once that trust is broken SO badly, I would not allow myself to reopen up because chances are, it will happen again.

 

That's it. I always think of 'forgiving' as actually moving on, and don't consider removing the chance for it to happen again. I would forgive things my ex did, and take him back, and he'd do it again. Until I read this thread I didn't consciously acknowledge the difference between forgiving (letting it go) and giving the person who wronged me another go.

 

I have a list of non-negotiables -- breaking that trust is on my list. The lying, the deceiving, the hurting, etc.

 

Even had I not gotten married, if the MM I was involved with came to me (which he did and I said NO), the answer would still be no. There was no way I could ever trust him again to NOT hurt me that badly again.

 

I think there comes a point of no return. You can forgive someone for the hurt they caused, but I personally wouldn't allow them a second chance to do it again.

 

Youre very grounded Fooled thats why we love you.

 

I have to say I worry that the reason its taken me so long to break free of the mental hold of the past is that I "understand" and rationalize on his behalf.

 

Hells bells. Yes, me too. Not to him, when we talk, but to myself, and on here, and to my two closest friends. Not big or clever.

 

I read things in other peoples threads and say no way thats crazy but we all think our own situations are somehow different (not all of us just those that have this issue).

 

I was reading something and thought wow if you would forgive that you would forgive anything and then I realized if a friend had come to me with my situation 2 years ago, they would have said hang on. Dont do that. Its not good for you.Dont let him off the hook like that (not to get back together but to even consider giving him a chance if he had left). And I didnt see it.

 

Maybe its neediness maybe its low self esteem I dont know.

 

I don't know either jj. Wish I did. I said to my counsellor I'm jealous of those people who can have a 'you had your chance and blew it - eff you!' type attitude. There seems to be lots of them. Not around here, but in general.

 

Even now if he came back full of sincere apologies, explanations a divorce and a vow to make things right I dont know that I would say no.

 

No, I can understand that. Not understand it, it makes no rational sense, but I think I would be the same.

 

After everything. It scares me.

 

It would. How do we move away from this? Are we idolising them? Are we scared we won't meet anyone else? Are we too tolerant as people? Do we find it hard to draw boundaries? Are we desperate not to be alone? I want to know!!!

 

It scares me that I have started having dreams about him again. Dreams that are so realistic that I wake up in the morning thinking we are still together. Last night I dreamt that he had the house valued and was finalizing his property settlement with his W. (you'll know its a possibility when you read in the paper that pigs were seen flying over Antartica)

 

Yes Ive been to counselling and went back this summer in despair that the dreams were back again in full force. I can only tell myself what I tell everyone else SNAP OUT OF IT

 

It's very strange that I have done some tidying in my life over the last 12-18 months. I decided anyone that brought more bad stuff than good to my life just had to go.

 

I have terminated a friendship that brought lots of hassle (she was unreliable 90% of the time), I have ended an 8 year relationship, I have distanced myself from my mum while I work through some of the issues between us, I am making more of an effort with friendships which are rewarding and positive overall.

 

Yet this relationship, I can't let go. My counsellor believes I have needs which are being met, and until I'm ready to let go I won't be ready to let go. Maybe I am still getting more stuff than bad. Again, I bring my perception in to question. I have seen him once in 2.5 months. That's not a relationship, not really. We've had about 50 phone hours in 5 weeks, that's not a relationship. We've exchanged about 2,500 text messages in 5 weeks, still, to me, that's not a relationship. Yet still I'm 'in'. He has hurt me terribly and broken promises to me, and still I think the pay-off will be worth the pain. Back soon, I'd better go answer the door. The men in white coats just arrived....

[Silly_Girl]

..........

And I must join you all when you say Fooled you are really great!!

 

Me three.

[BB07]

Great thread JJ........and lots of good responses. It's timely for me to, as I've had a difficult day.

 

It's funny in how I see myself vs how others see me. In many ways I appear to be very strong, and a "I don't take much crap kinda girl", but when it comes to my boundaries with men who I'm in a relationship with, I sometimes let them walk over me. I forgive what shouldn't be forgiven. I pretend it doesn't bother me, while it eats me up inside. I look for reasons why, when it shouldn't make a damn, because it just IS and no further explanation should be needed. I ask questions, wonder about motivations, try to find some way to rationalize it in my mind. Wanting to understand it, explain it away. I'm ashamed to say this, and it's a hard pill to swallow but I'm afraid it's true.

 

I wish I wasn't like this.

[chalkfarm]

Emotional heroin. We are all addicts. We fall off the wagon. We climb back on.

 

Perhaps the forgiveness should be for ourselves. Not for the xMM/MM.....

 

 

....I should change my user name to Emotional Heroin..... maybe I would evolve into Emotional Heroine sometime down the road.

[SidLyon]

It occurs to me that while forgiveness is a pure and wonderful thing that sometimes we become our own worst enemy when we forgive and forget.

 

Reading some of the threads and dealing with some of the things I do in my daily life I hear about women's situations and think in a million years I would NEVER put up with that I would NEVER stand for that.

 

Its always easier to say that when its not you.

 

But if the MM who broke your heart came back and said I am here, I am single now I love you so sorry for the troubles of the past would you forgive:

 

the lying

the being thrown under a bus

the being jerked around

the manipulation

and all sorts of other things (insert your situation here)

 

Occurs to me that for many the question is what would it take NOT to forgive him and that forgiving is great (bad to give free head space to someone who has hurt you) its the forgetting to the extent that you allow history to repeat itself that is a problem.

 

 

What would it take for us to NOT forgive these men....

 

 

Thoughts?

 

I hope you don't mind a woman from the "other side" answering, jj33.

 

It's very similar among BWs too - I see them saying "well I am dealing with X but would never put up with Y". I find myself doing it too. And sometimes my X is someone's else's Y, and vice versa, and I realise that I probably would have tried to overcome Y as well.

 

Sometimes I see OWs saying it of BWs and vice versa.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that to some degree it happens to us all.

 

I always believed that my M would be over in the event of infidelity and now years later my M is still going strong. There are many things about it that are so much better but sadly many things that are not. I felt my "need" was for a faithful husband not just currently but always. Now I have to settle for a currently faithful husband rather than an "always was" faithful husband.

 

It is now a long term need of mine in our marriage that will forever be unmet. My H is actually distressed by this thought too as I suppose he has worked out that a need that simply cannot be met by a marital partner is potentially a threat to the long term viability of the M. However I still think that not every single need by a person in a marriage is always going to be met so if other things are good, we will be too.

 

But back to your question - I have promised myself that another d-day will be my last. Having said that I see BW that go through multiple d-days and say to myself "I would never put up with that". I hope I don't get to find out whether I can put what I say is the deal-breaker, into practice.

[jj33]

Thanks Sid its always a pleasure to hear your thoughts. And as you say the issue is universal. Its easy to look at someone else's situation and say oh no thats terrible and harder to look in the mirror for some of us (including me Im good at giving advice not as good at displaying my own foibles or acting on things).

[BB07]

Thanks Sid its always a pleasure to hear your thoughts. And as you say the issue is universal. Its easy to look at someone else's situation and say oh no thats terrible and harder to look in the mirror for some of us (including me Im good at giving advice not as good at displaying my own foibles or acting on things).

 

 

I think you just described me also JJ.

[pureinheart]

I went NC and told exDM not to ever contact me again, I was done. At one point shortly before the NC I told him not to contact me until he was done with the entire mess.

 

I never thought they would actually separate...he called, I was mush after a few days.

 

I think most A's are love based and with this would say most would forget the past in the hopes the future would be different. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't, although have to say my R with exDM was mostly friendship based and that is why it remained an EA

[lilbunny]

I am way too forgiving, but I'm awful at the forgetting. I have whole conversations stored up for use at a later date, you know, but when we were at whereever you said... follows word for word quote.

What really worries me is not taking them back and forgiving them, but just how long I am prepared to wait to see if that phone call will ever happen. Now that scares the life out of me.

[Mino]

Hi JJ, This is a interesting thought. My xmm D will be final in about 2 weeks. For the past year, he has pursued me, and even harder since the paperwork was drawn up. He has aplolgized sincerely a thousand times, He is in counceling, and I truly believe he is remorseful. Through tearful hours of discussions, I have finally forgiven him. I have always know what he had in his heart, but I finally understood, he was driven by his situation, fear and mental condition. He speaks again of getting engaged, marriage, and fufilling all the dreams we once had. BUT, the pain was to much...... The trust is gone, I had a chance to expirience a new R. One that was built on trust, support, and uncondional love. I learned this has to go both ways. Always. So forgiveness is a beautiful gift you want to give yourself and the other person, but forgetting, hmmm, thats been a problem. Because I will always know he chose to put himself first, before me, tearing my heart into a million pieces over and over again. Today, he stands where I once stood. Waiting and wondering what the future will be. I just simply cannot forget.... not today.

[jj33]

Lilbunny that is my point exactly. Sometimes its important never to forget because you dont want to go back to a bad situatoin.

 

Mino Mino Mino so good to see you back. And so happy to hear you met someone new.

 

"So forgiveness is a beautiful gift you want to give yourself and the other person, but forgetting, hmmm, thats been a problem. Because I will always know he chose to put himself first, before me, tearing my heart into a million pieces over and over again. Today, he stands where I once stood. Waiting and wondering what the future will be. I just simply cannot forget.... not today.

 

Mino I dont think failure to forget is a problem its a good self protective mechanism. Its why we never forget if we put our hand too close to the fire we will get burnt.

[JustJoe]

IDK, how much help I can be,JJ. I , rarely forgive and have never forgotten any wrong done to me, plus I always get "paybacks". The only time I was ever cheated on, I caught my GF kissing another guy in HS. After I beat the crap out of him, I never spoke to the girl again, and have not done so for 11 years. Funny, she tried to contact me for over a year afterwards, but I never responded.

[jj33]

See Joe you never forget and so the same person never does you wrong twice. I think thats very healthy in a lot of ways. Carrying around anger is never great for anyone but not letting someone take advantage of you twice (or being the boy who cried wolf) is a good thing.

[Brokenlady]

JJ,

I'm not sure that the problem is forgetting. When we've been burned, we can forgive - even over and over again if the motivation is sufficient.

 

At least for me, I never forgot what he did, in fact I dwelled on it. So I kept taking him back in the hopes of a do-over where he'd make it right the next time. It was a strong motivation to be able to replace the bad memories with good ones, to stop feeling like the reason he couldn't cut the cord was some defect in me, and to prove that I hadn't wasted years of my life to myself - and of course love for him, that kept me in a pattern of allowing him back to do it again.

 

It was made worse by the fact that everytime he'd come back there'd be some progress, but I'd be even less tolerant of the areas where there was little or no progress. It essentially became a ritual of "holding an emotional gun to his head" to "help" him move forward. I think it would have been easier to walk away if there had been no progress at all.

[jj33]

Broken I agree but I think the question is why do we give them umpteen chances when they have failed so many times in the past?

 

At at certain point self preservation should kick in and day you have hurt me and I am not giving you a chance to hurt me again.

 

When we keep allowing the same person who has continually disappointed us, I suspect we are playing out something else and not objectively looking at the circumstances in our adult lives in the present moment.

 

Otherwise we wouldnt have this need (that overrides the facts that are so clear to anyone else) that the person does not in fact deserve another chance. Forgiveness doesnt mean you have to let the person back into your life again.

 

I suppose the question is at what point do you say Ive had enough. Im not going through this ever again. Youve had your 3 strikes, you are out.

 

This wont be applicable to everyone but I think your situation does fit the mold. Just those who have been repeatedly disappointed or hurt by the person they are involved with.

 

And yes it is more difficult when you think you see progress, you think this time it will be different and then POW you get kicked in the heart yet again.