Tell her I have a crush on her?

[Green]

I guess to each his own....but guys who are too bold too soon make me want to run for the hills as fast as possible.

 

I'm just trying to get the guy to KISS the girl on the first date. If the girl dodges the kiss I'm all for respecting that. If she agrees to go on another date he can then try to kiss her again with the confidence that she agreed to go on a date with him again even after he tried to kiss her.

 

I'm all for respecting a womans boundaries.

[ConflictedGuy27]

I'm just trying to get the guy to KISS the girl on the first date. If the girl dodges the kiss I'm all for respecting that. If she agrees to go on another date he can then try to kiss her again with the confidence that she agreed to go on a date with him again even after he tried to kiss her.

 

I'm all for respecting a womans boundaries.

 

Playtime's over, man - whatever it takes, I gotta get this method through my skull. I can't find anything wrong with this approach.

[Green]

Playtime's over, man - whatever it takes, I gotta get this method through my skull. I can't find anything wrong with this approach.

 

Look for a good time to KISS through out the night. But DONT GET STRESSED it is very important that you have a GOOD time.

 

Bottom line if it gets to the end of the night and you are saying goodbye just do it then. KISS

[zengirl]

God you guys... I'm in frustration mode and could use some advice.

 

So there's this girl I've gone out with twice; not officially a date, at least neither of us called it that.

 

This is the problem with going on dates that are not dates. I don't know why anyone does this. If I go out with a fellow, it is either clear it is a date (or a pre-dating "Let's just see" if we are meeting for the 1st time, like online, but even that has the clear possibility to become a date if we meet and are mutually attracted) or it is not a date, and I make that as clear as possible without being insulting. If a fellow wants to be on a date with me, I need him to make it clear -- before he tries to kiss me, mind you -- that it is date-like.

 

If you like someone, ask them on a date. Ambiguity gets you nowhere.

 

First outing we went to dinner, dessert and hung out at a bar.

 

Our second outing just ended, about an hour ago. We talk, click well, I touch her, when I can, and she initiates wanting to go out with me.

 

She cooks a lot and I like cooking too, so I tell her, "hey, you should come over and let me cook for you one night; or vise versa". She says "well... maybe; if you're lucky enough, haha." I can't get an effing read on this girl and as I spend more time with her, I think I'm starting to crush on her, but I can't effing tell if it's mutual... I almost doubt it is; because I know she's dating (I met a dude she described she's "seeing").

 

Interesting choice of words. "Seeing" to me is a more serious verb than "dating" and I tend to use it for the almost-relationship stage, but everybody's different, so I'm not saying get all analytical with it.

 

With the involvement of other parties, here's where things get complicated. Whether she wants to date you will factor in both you and this fellow she's seeing. If things are going well with him, even if she might otherwise go out with you, she may decline. If you waited till things weren't going well with him, you might have a better chance. However, if things get better with him, your chances go down. Since there's no way to predict the future on any of that, there's nothing useful to do except be direct before this girl gets into a full-blown relationship.

 

You might get turned down. If you accept that and want to be friends (REALLY friends), most gals will still consider that, so don't worry about scaring her away forever. Of course, you don't have to be friends and getting a "No" might hurt but set you free. At least you'll know. There is no harm in expressing your interest.

 

However DON'T say "crush." Never ever say, "I have a crush on you." That sounds odd. Say you'd really like to take her out on a date sometime, if she'd be into that, because you think she's a great girl (for whatever reason you like her etc). Say you're attracted to her. Say you're interested. Don't tell her you have a crush. Crushes are only acceptable in movies about highschoolers.

 

During both situations I didn't try kissing her at all... GRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!! don't ask me why, I just eff'd up I guess. I think I'm being friend zoned now.

 

1.) The friend zone is a myth. The girl is doing nothing to you. You are purposefully obscuring your motives and causing yourself confusion. You are the one not being assertive and direct, because you fear potential rejection.

 

2.) You didn't try to kiss her because it wasn't a date and even you didn't really see it as one. Try to get this girl on a date.

 

In any event, I'm wondering if I should be more forward with my flirting; damn near to the point of letting her know I've got a crush on her. Have I lost my marbles?? It freaking feels like it. Why the eff can't I make a move?? I don't usually flake like this.

 

In any event, I need some advice. I'm thinking of just going no contact with her until I figure out wtf to do; because I can't do another friendly fu*king outing with her when I want more.

 

Thanks in advance for the advice guys.

 

Going no contact without telling her anything is absurd. People do not read minds. If you can't be friends with her, don't be friends with her. Tell her, "I'd really like to go out with you." And if she says no, say, "I'm sorry, but I just can't be just a friend with you" and gracefully move away.

 

There is nothing worse than emotional confusion. Even if you get rejected, at least you won't be tying yourself up in knots. Just face the music, whatever it is.

 

NO! Tread with caution. Of course I cannot speak for her, but I've had tons of uncomfortable experience in this situation: guy friends blurting out their feelings for me after going out a couple times, and it has always managed to turn me off.

 

Even in cases where I might have been open to the idea of dating the guy after getting to know him a little better. Nothing kills that possibility sooner than the guy telling me they have a crush on me. Not only can I not return the feelings, but now I feel awkward about even being around you as friends with that knowledge.

 

This sounds familiar, me being a girl who has been seeing someone (aka FWB) and had gone out with a new person a couple times. Things were on the outs with Mr. FWB and I was slowly warming up to New Guy until he became a complete lovesick puppydog. Aside from just being a complete turn-off it's an additional insult to me when someone claims they have a crush on me after only a few "dates." They can't possibly know the real me so whatever they are crushing on is an idealized version.

 

Many times, crushes are simply a minimal vision of the person with all the unknown details filled in by your own desires. You should respect a girl enough to get to know the real her. Not the one you've filled in the blanks about. And spend a lot of time together before confessing your feelings. Which is something she probably won't want to do after you plant the image in her mind that you think of her when you're...alone, if you catch my drift!!!

 

Just my $0.02......

 

This is all true, and it's why it matters HOW you go about approaching this. A crush forms when you form an attachment to someone you believe you cannot have and start projecting all sorts of nonsense about. No one needs to form a crush (in this manner) if they act assertively on their desires and clear in their motives towards another person. I disagree with randomly kissing girls so much as Green suggests, but I do agree with being totally clear. If you want a date, ask for a date.

 

As a girl, I will say: Now, don't lure me somewhere under false pretenses of mutual friendship AND THEN expect it to be a date. That turns me off. Give me the option of accepting or declining to a degree. It bugs me when a fellow pretends to be my friend and then assumes we are dating. (But girls feed into this too by letting male friends do things like pay for them, etc.)

 

I guess to each his own....but guys who are too bold too soon make me want to run for the hills as fast as possible.

 

Me too. But just as "too bold" is bad, so is "too wishy washy." Balance is key.

[Green]

I only scanned what you wrote zen girl but... It was a date... any time you have a girl a lone that is an oportunity to turn on the charm.

 

Plus being bold always works. Don't confuse being bold with being a pervert or disrespectful. Completely different.

 

And my KISSING rule is Flawless

[zengirl]

I only scanned what you wrote zen girl but... It was a date... any time you have a girl a lone that is an oportunity to turn on the charm.

 

Plus being bold always works. Don't confuse being bold with being a pervert or disrespectful. Completely different.

 

And my KISSING rule is Flawless

 

I'm alone with my male friends sometimes, and it is NOT a date. This is where your theory goes awry, as it doesn't allow for the possibility that men and women are friends. They sometimes are.

 

There's every possibility this girl doesn't know what this fellow is feeling, as he's the one obscuring it. You can't expect a girl to read minds. Though you did point out with your rule that if the gal declines the kiss, you respect that. I think you need to push that point more, because it's more that a fellow gets all uppity about it that it becomes a real issue.

 

I'd just tell a guy that I wasn't interested in dating him if I saw him as a friend and we were hanging out and that came up. It'd be awkward and annoying, but not horrendous. But if he tried it again, on that day or another day, I'd feel really disrespected. I've made my intentions clear. He can either accept that we're friends or not be my friend, but I can't stand fellows who are trying to "get" me to go out with them.

[Green]

I'm alone with my male friends sometimes, and it is NOT a date. This is where your theory goes awry, as it doesn't allow for the possibility that men and women are friends. They sometimes are.

 

There's every possibility this girl doesn't know what this fellow is feeling, as he's the one obscuring it. You can't expect a girl to read minds. Though you did point out with your rule that if the gal declines the kiss, you respect that. I think you need to push that point more, because it's more that a fellow gets all uppity about it that it becomes a real issue.

 

I'd just tell a guy that I wasn't interested in dating him if I saw him as a friend and we were hanging out and that came up. It'd be awkward and annoying, but not horrendous. But if he tried it again, on that day or another day, I'd feel really disrespected. I've made my intentions clear. He can either accept that we're friends or not be my friend, but I can't stand fellows who are trying to "get" me to go out with them.

 

Any guy who goes out of his way to have private dinners and movie time with you probably likes you romanticaly if you are at all attractive... heck maybe even if you are ugly they still like you... guys just don't spend alone time with girls they wouldn't fck.

[zengirl]

Any guy who goes out of his way to have private dinners and movie time with you probably likes you romanticaly if you are at all attractive... heck maybe even if you are ugly they still like you... guys just don't spend alone time with girls they wouldn't fck.

 

Granted, most of the time I spend with any friends, male or female, isn't 1 on 1. There's a fellow who's like my brother. We have private dinners at least once a month when I'm at home (now that I'm traveling, we have SKYPE dates in the same). We talk about our relationships with other people and such, so I'm sure he's not pining for me. We talk about everything. As I said, he's like a brother to me, and he refers to me as Little Sis. So, it'd be pretty creepy if he wanted to sleep with me. We are both considered "attractive" people in general, but we have no chemistry or attraction to each other. This does happen.

 

I also hang out with male friends at their houses, sometimes alone, or at my house, or meet for a drink or whatnot. Generally, I tend to hang out in groups anyway, but I've definitely hung out with most of my close male friends 1 on 1.

 

Of course, you're right that this is a red flag early on. . . and I've learned not to spend too 1 on 1 much time with a fellow I'm not into when I first meet them, but I didn't always know that. And it's a bit sad that I have to take care to avoid this because some fellows can't just take a direct statement or be direct about their interest and accept rejection gracefully.

[somedude81]

I'd hate to hijack a thread but this caught my attention.

I'd just tell a guy that I wasn't interested in dating him if I saw him as a friend and we were hanging out and that came up. It'd be awkward and annoying, but not horrendous. But if he tried it again, on that day or another day, I'd feel really disrespected. I've made my intentions clear. He can either accept that we're friends or not be my friend, but I can't stand fellows who are trying to "get" me to go out with them.

Once both of you have made your intentions clear, he likes you, you don't return the feelings, would you hang out with him again?

[zengirl]

I'd hate to hijack a thread but this caught my attention.

 

Once both of you have made your intentions clear, he likes you, you don't return the feelings, would you hang out with him again?

 

If he wants to be friends. I might have some reticence, but I wouldn't write off spending time with someone I thought was cool because of it. I might not immediately spend time alone with him again and I would make my feelings (or lack of feelings) clear. I have a male friend who was just a friend first, then confessed feelings to me, and later got over it and married another of our friends. It was awkward for a time, but it's not that big of a deal. I also have a male friend I had a crush on once, but stepped back from, and now I'm over it and we're just friends. But these are rare cases.

 

It really depends on how evolved the crush is. . . if it's just "Hey, I was physically attracted to you and I think you're cool, so why not?" then a friendship can still emerge later if both parties are clear. Especially with people who generally have happy dating lives, because they get over the rejection easily and quickly.

[somedude81]

Reticence that's a new word, I had to turn to dictionary.com to figure that one out.

 

Thanks for your answer. Naturally I have a bunch more questions but it's not my thread. Heh, I'm not sure if it cleared some stuff up for my situation or actually made it more confusing

[Green]

Granted, most of the time I spend with any friends, male or female, isn't 1 on 1. There's a fellow who's like my brother. We have private dinners at least once a month when I'm at home (now that I'm traveling, we have SKYPE dates in the same). We talk about our relationships with other people and such, so I'm sure he's not pining for me. We talk about everything. As I said, he's like a brother to me, and he refers to me as Little Sis. So, it'd be pretty creepy if he wanted to sleep with me. We are both considered "attractive" people in general, but we have no chemistry or attraction to each other. This does happen.

 

I also hang out with male friends at their houses, sometimes alone, or at my house, or meet for a drink or whatnot. Generally, I tend to hang out in groups anyway, but I've definitely hung out with most of my close male friends 1 on 1.

 

Of course, you're right that this is a red flag early on. . . and I've learned not to spend too 1 on 1 much time with a fellow I'm not into when I first meet them, but I didn't always know that. And it's a bit sad that I have to take care to avoid this because some fellows can't just take a direct statement or be direct about their interest and accept rejection gracefully.

 

The fact of the matter is the guy in your story who had private dinners with you and refers to you as his sister probably does find you hot on some level unless he is gay. Maybe he will never act on it because he likes just keeping it at friends... but really if I were dating a girl I would not be ok with her having private dinners with a friend like this... even if she told me "he calls me sister"

[zengirl]

The fact of the matter is the guy in your story who had private dinners with you and refers to you as his sister probably does find you hot on some level unless he is gay. Maybe he will never act on it because he likes just keeping it at friends... but really if I were dating a girl I would not be ok with her having private dinners with a friend like this... even if she told me "he calls me sister"

 

This is based on your own projections.

 

I've dated many men who've had no issues with my male friends and have even become friends with some of these friends themselves. I make no secrets about them. I don't date jealous or untrusting people.

 

But all of your views make sense for someone who thinks men and women shouldn't or can't be friends, which goes with all the rules you list. I have gay male friends, bi male friends, straight male friends, gay female friends, straight female friends, and bi female friends. Sexuality or gender has little to do with my friendships though some straight male/straight female friend stuff can get confusing at first because of people who have views like yours.

[Green]

This is based on your own projections.

 

I've dated many men who've had no issues with my male friends and have even become friends with some of these friends themselves. I make no secrets about them. I don't date jealous or untrusting people.

 

But all of your views make sense for someone who thinks men and women shouldn't or can't be friends, which goes with all the rules you list. I have gay male friends, bi male friends, straight male friends, gay female friends, straight female friends, and bi female friends. Sexuality or gender has little to do with my friendships though some straight male/straight female friend stuff can get confusing at first because of people who have views like yours.

 

Well in the end I realize how clueless women are. Personaly I find it hilariouse that such a situation as described can even exist.

 

I mean the female equivalent is when a guy has sex but refuses to comit or treat the relationship seriously.

 

But for guys they get in this situation where a girl allows them to spend private alone time and the guy is just to scared to try even though thats the only reason he ever aproached the girl. This is where the friendzone comes from... a combo of guys who have a certain type of insanity and women who may or may not be obliviouse.

 

the current poster has some wierd mentle hangup FEAR holding him back. He most definetly is one type of person who cannot be friends with women. I really doubt he has any female friends he does dinner dates with that he does not like in that way.

 

I find it funny that you always speak with such confidence on how men should feel and be when I a man can't even do it for other men.

 

As for myself I do not believe men and women can be friends when they place themselves in date like situations. Even if I had a wife/gf who I knew would never cheat on me I would not want her going on dinner dates and movie nights with other men... even if they were gay.

[zengirl]

Well in the end I realize how clueless women are. Personaly I find it hilariouse that such a situation as described can even exist.

 

I mean the female equivalent is when a guy has sex but refuses to comit or treat the relationship seriously.

 

When I give friendship, I expect friendship. A fellow who gives friendship expecting romance or sex (or a girl who does so) is idiotic. I find it clueless to suggest women and men can't be from when you can plainly look at the world and see that many are.

 

But for guys they get in this situation where a girl allows them to spend private alone time and the guy is just to scared to try even though thats the only reason he ever aproached the girl. This is where the friendzone comes from... a combo of guys who have a certain type of insanity and women who may or may not be obliviouse.

Perhaps that's a good description of what happens when people are unclear about their motives, as the poster is.

 

the current poster has some wierd mentle hangup FEAR holding him back. He most definetly is one type of person who cannot be friends with women. I really doubt he has any female friends he does dinner dates with that he does not like in that way.

I might agree with this. At least, I agree that he seems to be incapable of being friends with this girl and has some issues per his post. I mostly addressed these in my long post you "skimmed." This is why reading what people say is important to an argument. I 100% said most of this, though in a different way.

 

I find it funny that you always speak with such confidence on how men should feel and be when I a man can't even do it for other men.

I don't know what you mean here. Are you referring to jealousy? I don't believe people (men and women) should be jealous, controlling, or try to dictate or fuss about the friends of their partner. I also don't think they should be defensive, secretive, or use such friends in attention-seeking ways. At least the people who I surround myself with. And I don't see how any of that behavior makes anyone happy.

 

As for myself I do not believe men and women can be friends when they place themselves in date like situations. Even if I had a wife/gf who I knew would never cheat on me I would not want her going on dinner dates and movie nights with other men... even if they were gay.

What we disagree with is what constitutes "date" like. To me, a dinner alone with a person is not a date. Now, if we were holding hands or something or snuggling during a movie or even if the fellow were paying for me or some such. . . then yeah. But if I go out in a ponytail and glasses to see the latest Harry Potter movie with a friend and we grab some sandwiches afterward and we say and do nothing romantic, and have no romantic history or clear intentions, this is not a date. Heck, even if I take a male friend to a wedding or event (usually would only happen if I was sans SO or if SO was unavailable for some reason), in a fancy dress, done up, and we dance together or whatnot, if we're clear that we're just friends. . . it isn't a date. Though that's a rarer situation.

[Green]

I wouldn't seriously date a girl like you zengirl you have no boundaries I would dump a person like this when it became clear to me.

 

In the end OP realize how silly girls are... if you don't KISS they think you are just their friend... and then by date 3 if you finaly do kiss they will be really weirded out because they thought you were just their lame bud who didn't mind spending time with them. Go for the kiss.

[zengirl]

I wouldn't seriously date a girl like you zengirl you have no boundaries I would dump a person like this when it became clear to me.

 

In the end OP realize how silly girls are... if you don't KISS they think you are just their friend... and then by date 3 if you finaly do kiss they will be really weirded out because they thought you were just their lame bud who didn't mind spending time with them. Go for the kiss.

 

Well, I definitely have boundaries. Hence my desire for people to clearly assert things. I am assertive of my boundaries. You don't happen to agree with them, but it's silly to say they don't exist. One of my boundaries happens to be not allowing a fellow's jealousy to force me to change my life. Another happens to be using clear communication to determine what a date is, rather than relying on some sort of inane stereotypes derived from those who can't have platonic friends of the opposite sex.

 

But I wouldn't date a fellow like you either, for a multitude of reasons derived from things I've read here. Mostly the issues you have with control and even the statement you made about sometimes feeling like you're missing out on things by being in your relationship with your GF despite her being great. So? There are lots of different types of people in the world. Girls like me tend to stay away from fellows like you who need to control us to feel strong in the relationship.

Edited August 15, 2010 by zengirl

[somedude81]

The friendzone usually happens because the man is afraid to declare his intentions. Doing so would invite a premature rejection. This is why men do not use the word date anymore. For some reason it causes the female to think that things are getting serious and her first reaction is to run away.

 

So the guy asks the girl out but he purposely does not call it a date. To him, his asking her out and spending time alone with her conveys his interest in her. If he had no interest in her, he simply would not have invited her out. Unless they were good friends before or possibly coworkers, the man has no intention of becoming friends with her.

 

For the some reason the girl is oblivious or pretends that the man is not interested in her. She believes or even convinces herself that the man wants to be her friend.

 

Of course the thought is ridiculous that a man will choose friendship with a new woman over sex. Women seem to be lacking common sense in this area.

[Green]

Well, I definitely have boundaries. Hence my desire for people to clearly assert things. I am assertive of my boundaries. You don't happen to agree with them, but it's silly to say they don't exist. One of my boundaries happens to be not allowing a fellow's jealousy to force me to change my life. Another happens to be using clear communication to determine what a date is, rather than relying on some sort of inane stereotypes derived from those who can't have platonic friends of the opposite sex.

 

I realize you entertain yourself by giving dating advice to men... but unlike me you have no personal experiences to draw from.

 

Let me just explain to you that even though you think you know what a "date" is I can gaurantee these guys you go out to private dinners with have a different idea.

 

I never meant to literaly say you had no boundaries only that your boundaries are not condusive to the type of monogomous relationship I want to be in. Tell me are your parents still married? If so does your mother (when they were married if not still) go out on private outings and trips with men just the two of them.(that you know of)

 

But I wouldn't date a fellow like you either, for a multitude of reasons derived from things I've read here. Mostly the issues you have with control and even the statement you made about sometimes feeling like you're missing out on things by being in your relationship with your GF despite her being great. So? There are lots of different types of people in the world. Girls like me tend to stay away from fellows like you who need to control us to feel strong in the relationship.

 

I can't even fully control myself so why would I expect to control any one else.

 

I expect people to control themselves. If I didn't trust in my gf's abilities to control herself then I would leave her.

 

My gf is a great person smart, pretty, fun ect... and being in a relationship is better then not being in a relationship. But make no mistake living with a woman does have its ups and downs... I'm sorry if that is to honest and I'm not sure if you've ever lived with a lover but I'm just giving a mans perspective.

 

The friendzone usually happens because the man is afraid to declare his intentions. Doing so would invite a premature rejection. This is why men do not use the word date anymore. For some reason it causes the female to think that things are getting serious and her first reaction is to run away.

 

This is a great analysis. Using the word "Date" really only will invite rejection.

 

But it is smart to make romantic intentions clear through 1) Flirting (silly fun conversation) 2) Touching (hand holding, touching her arm when you make her laugh ect... 3) KISS (this is the only real way the girl will realize its a date)

 

So the guy asks the girl out but he purposely does not call it a date. To him, his asking her out and spending time alone with her conveys his interest in her. If he had no interest in her, he simply would not have invited her out. Unless they were good friends before or possibly coworkers, the man has no intention of becoming friends with her.

 

It baffles me how a girl I ask out to dinner... then pay for the dinner ... acts suprised when I try to kiss her. Thats a true story by the way... she was like "oh so this was a date" I felt crushed but it turns out she was happy it was a date... just goes to show how women are so blind to whats really going on and why it is so important to be a man who makes MOVES.

 

But calling it a date is pointless. You just ask the girl "lets go see a concert" or "lets do lunch" and then you show her its romantic with actions.

 

For the some reason the girl is oblivious or pretends that the man is not interested in her. She believes or even convinces herself that the man wants to be her friend.

 

Of course the thought is ridiculous that a man will choose friendship with a new woman over sex. Women seem to be lacking common sense in this area.

 

Zengirl is a perfect example of how girls can be obliviuose.

[ConflictedGuy27]

Green and Somedude81, spot on analysis.

 

Let me add this to yours SomeDude81, because I'm living this pitfall having not made a move twice on 2 girls in the same circle after at least 1 date:

 

Guys who DON'T MAKE MOVES, for whatever reason, know this - girls talk to each other about guys they date and when one says "oh, but he didn't make a move on me" the other will probably say the same damn thing "ohh yah, me neither" and from that point on your reputation among that circle, with those women, is locked in as that guy that doesn't make moves, for whatever reason.

 

That's not sexy, that's not cool. For better or for worse, this is why Green's "just effing KISS them already" strategy really is flawless.

 

Green: you said by the third date, it just becomes awkward when you try to kiss them then, but still do it. My reputation as a guy who makes moves is on the line - as far as women in this particular circle are concerned. I have to do it, if for nothing else then to preserve my rep.

 

Thanks guys; and thanks for your input too Zengirl - it's nice to get a female's perspective, but everything that Green mentioned to you, about the romantic intentions of the guys you meet one-on-one with, is true - DAMN TRUE. Those guys are 100% the ones that like(d) you and couldn't pull the trigger and now, it's waaay too late.

 

Bottom line, 99.999999% of straight men are never actual platonic friends with attractive women; they're double agents stalking you for a shot to do what they should have done waaaaay back on the first date.

[Green]

Green and Somedude81, spot on analysis.

 

Thanks, but we only said the things you alread know to be true.

 

Let me add this to yours SomeDude81, because I'm living this pitfall having not made a move twice on 2 girls in the same circle after at least 1 date:

 

Guys who DON'T MAKE MOVES, for whatever reason, know this - girls talk to each other about guys they date and when one says "oh, but he didn't make a move on me" the other will probably say the same damn thing "ohh yah, me neither" and from that point on your reputation among that circle, with those women, is locked in as that guy that doesn't make moves, for whatever reason.

 

That's not sexy, that's not cool. For better or for worse, this is why Green's "just effing KISS them already" strategy really is flawless.

 

Don't worry about your reputation or the FACT that girls talk to eachother...

 

You should make a move because that is what you want to do... that is what BEING YOURESLF means. Just be yourself and touch and kiss her just like you always wanted to in the first place before you got scared... and never worry about a bad reputation because girls just like that... If girls are talking about you really it can only be good because you are being talked about lol.

 

Green: you said by the third date, it just becomes awkward when you try to kiss them then, but still do it. My reputation as a guy who makes moves is on the line - as far as women in this particular circle are concerned. I have to do it, if for nothing else then to preserve my rep.

 

Its all about communication. If by the time the third date comes around you have just been a friendly guy with no romantic intentions it may be confusing for a "Zengirl" type woman to be kissed. Thats why communicating romantic intention from the begining through 1)flirting 2)touching 3)kissing will be the least confusing and most likely to work.

 

You still have to face rejection, and I've been rejected by numerouse women... but once you enjoy yourself in the dating game it isn't long until you get a gf. And then you are a better boyfriend because you feel more free to be yourself and not worry about if a girl dumps you... because if a girl dumps you it will be with the knowledge that you now how to approach women.

 

Thanks guys; and thanks for your input too Zengirl - it's nice to get a female's perspective, but everything that Green mentioned to you, about the romantic intentions of the guys you meet one-on-one with, is true - DAMN TRUE. Those guys are 100% the ones that like(d) you and couldn't pull the trigger and now, it's waaay too late.

 

Bottom line, 99.999999% of straight men are never actual platonic friends with attractive women; they're double agents stalking you for a shot to do what they should have done waaaaay back on the first date.

 

Basicaly I hope you learn from Zengirls post. Do you see how she believes that a guy who just asks her out to dinner and spends alone fun time with her is JUST a friend. She even admits she is attractive.

 

So girls really are obliviouse some times so its your job to be yourself and make your romantic intentions known. Its fake and unattractive to hide who you are.

 

You only benefit from being yourself and romanticly persuing a girl. It only ups your chances. No girl ever said to herself... this guy is so friendly and unromantic that I think I will date him. If a girl dates you even though you were just friendly and never made a move... it isn't because you were just friendly... its in spite of that fact. So don't confuse that.

 

Good luck, You already know what you need to do. So kiss her... and ask out more girls.

[Engadget]

Not to sound like a jerk, that's not my intention but if you have to ask, don't say it.

[dispatch3d]

Green has been here so I assume he already told you this but DON"T tell her you like her. Do not tell a girl you like her until after you've slept with her. You will destroy all the fun and challenge for her.

[Engadget]

Green has been here so I assume he already told you this but DON"T tell her you like her. Do not tell a girl you like her until after you've slept with her. You will destroy all the fun and challenge for her.

 

True, and also you should intuitively know when to say it. If you're fretting over it and aren't sure, DO NOT say it.

[zengirl]

The friendzone usually happens because the man is afraid to declare his intentions. Doing so would invite a premature rejection. This is why men do not use the word date anymore. For some reason it causes the female to think that things are getting serious and her first reaction is to run away.

 

So the guy asks the girl out but he purposely does not call it a date. To him, his asking her out and spending time alone with her conveys his interest in her. If he had no interest in her, he simply would not have invited her out. Unless they were good friends before or possibly coworkers, the man has no intention of becoming friends with her.

 

For the some reason the girl is oblivious or pretends that the man is not interested in her. She believes or even convinces herself that the man wants to be her friend.

 

Of course the thought is ridiculous that a man will choose friendship with a new woman over sex. Women seem to be lacking common sense in this area.

 

If the word "date" scares a girl who wants to date you away, she is either very young or very emotionally unhealthy. The truth is she doesn't want to date you. Now, granted, sometimes, the gal would've said yes, if you'd only asked, and sometimes she would've said no. But, by NOT ASKING or making your intentions clear, you've caused yourself most of the pain. Always been my point.

 

At the same time, you don't literally need to use the word to make it clear it's a date. "Go out" for instance would also tell me the fellow meant a date. There are other ways of phrasing. It's when men actively bury their intentions and think that some mild flirting and spending time with a girl = a date in her mind that it becomes a problem.

 

If you say, "Let's see a concert Friday night," (actually, if I don't yet KNOW you, and it's not a group thing, I'm guessing this right here is a date -- unless you give me some nonchalant nonsense that convinces me otherwise; if you are direct and assertive about it, this would be enough for me to consider it a date; though the same behavior from long-term platonic friends wouldn't be. . . because they're long-term platonic friends, not that I've ever gone to a concert with just 1 friend anyway) and you get dressed up, and you call to confirm, and you pick her up, and you pay for things, and you try to flirt heavily, hold her hand, etc. . . yes, a girl is an idiot if she thinks it's not a date.

 

If you say, "Let's go grab a sandwich after class/at lunch/Sunday/etc" and you meet her there, have some normal conversation, etc, then you're an idiot for thinking it's a date.

 

And there is everything in between. The issue is when you're HIDING your intentions. Not the specific verbiage you use.

 

I realize you entertain yourself by giving dating advice to men... but unlike me you have no personal experiences to draw from.

 

And I realize some men are so stubborn they think that dating is fully one-sided and the girl is basically not present and has NO IDEA what happened to her on dates. I've been on many dates with many men. It is patently clear that I'm providing the female perspective I offer and that my personal experiences differ from yours, but I am drawing from them. . . just from the other side of the table.

 

Let me just explain to you that even though you think you know what a "date" is I can gaurantee these guys you go out to private dinners with have a different idea.

 

You have no personal experiences being my friend or even meeting them to know this. All men don't think like you, just as all women don't think like me.

 

I never meant to literaly say you had no boundaries only that your boundaries are not condusive to the type of monogomous relationship I want to be in.

 

And your boundaries are not conducive to mine. What of it? It doesn't mean any of my SO's have been ill-treated.

 

Tell me are your parents still married? If so does your mother (when they were married if not still) go out on private outings and trips with men just the two of them.(that you know of)

 

My mother is married, yes. My mother has very few friends outside of my step-father and her family, but she has a male co-worker I know she goes to lunch with alone sometimes. He's the only person in her whole department she can stand, as the rest are Fundies. My step-father has an old female friend from HS, but they're both married now and most of their time is spent as doubling (couples). It's different when you've been married for 10 years or more. . . and have had kids. . . mostly, you don't have loads of time for spending time 1 on 1 with anyone. They rarely do that with their same-gender friends.

 

Of course, she doesn't go on trips with other men. . . neither do I, frankly. Actually, except for my SO or maybe my Mom, I can't think of a time I went on a trip with only 1 person. I will, of course, go on a trip with a Co Ed group and certainly have. My parents do this too. Generally, together, as they do everything together, but that's the kind of folks they are. I've no issues with this, and generally speaking, when I've had a serious SO, he's very involved in my life and almost always welcome to come along when I socialize. But there's only so much time in the day, but he may choose not to.

 

I can't even fully control myself so why would I expect to control any one else.

 

Yeah, Most people with control issues feel they cannot fully control themselves.

 

My gf is a great person smart, pretty, fun ect... and being in a relationship is better then not being in a relationship. But make no mistake living with a woman does have its ups and downs... I'm sorry if that is to honest and I'm not sure if you've ever lived with a lover but I'm just giving a mans perspective.

 

I've lived with my SO before. Sure, it has it's ups and downs (what doesn't?), but that's not what you said that I was referring to. You said, you weren't sure if it was better than being single, except single felt lonely. You said it in response to me saying I felt most men in good relationships generally feel lucky to have found them.