How bad is this?

[carrie999]

Before I explain, I know that what I'm about to describe is morally wrong, and would cause major problems if anyone found out about it. The quick version is that I'm married and I've gotten involved with a married friend. We're all part of a large group of friends, which makes it much riskier if anyone finds out. We all get together maybe once a month and usually make it an overnight visit, since we live far apart.

 

When we spend time with this other couple, we're the last ones to go to sleep, and we've always stayed up just hanging out and talking. Recently, this guy and I ended up kissing and were pretty shocked at our behavior. The next time, it went a little further and I felt horrible about it. I'm not "that type," and I've never cheated or even lied to anyone I've ever dated, much less my husband. But as I played it over in my head, flogging myself for my bad behavior, something strange happened: it didn't feel THAT wrong. And it only made me appreciate my husband more.

 

This time, after everyone went to bed, we decided to talk about what happened last time. And we found ourselves on the same page--somehow we didn't hate ourselves, and we were surprised that we could rationalize what happened. We decided to just enjoy hanging out...but ended up intimate again.

 

This is really confusing for me. I have no doubts about my relationship or his. Neither of us would leave our spouses, and we're both really happy. Of course, clearly *something* is "wrong" if we're willing to stray, but I honestly have no gripes about my life and wouldn't change anything about my relationship. Neither would he. But now we're both enjoying this "secret rendezvous" between us.

 

It's stirring up so many questions within me, and shaking my moral framework. If nobody knows but us, and it's not hurting our relationships with our spouses, is it really that awful? That's a rhetorical question--I know dishonesty in a relationship (even in the absence of infidelity) is dangerous. I know the answer to this.

 

But I can't help myself, and I can't help wondering if monogamy is antiquated or not natural for most people.

 

In my line of work, I've learned a lot about people that they wouldn't tell their best friends, or even an anonymous survey. I've found that infidelity is common, and I wonder how terrible this kind of situation really is if both parties are otherwise committed and not planning to leave their spouses or pursue a deeper relationship.

 

We've developed a relationship that (without even physical intimacy) transcends friendship. We finish each other's sentences, and thoughts. We don't need to say much, and we can communicate a lot at length in front of our friends and spouses.

 

Any thoughts?

[White Flower]

 

We've developed a relationship that (without even physical intimacy) transcends friendship. We finish each other's sentences, and thoughts. We don't need to say much, and we can communicate a lot at length in front of our friends and spouses.

 

Any thoughts?

You WILL fall in love and it WILL eventually become a problem for you.

 

Get out now before you're both totally lost in love, and you're totally emotionally dependent on one another.

 

I'm wrapping up a 5 year A so I know what I'm talking about. I remember the days you're speaking of now and if I could go back, I'd take all the calls, sparkly eye glances, and lunch dates and chalk them up to fine compliments and then leave it at that, then say goodbye. Because once you become emotionally dependent and he's not willing to do what it takes to be with you, you WILL hate yourself. Or be very angry with yourself.

 

I hated so much admitting that, but it's true, the longer you're in love, the more you become emotionally dependent on your lover. It's hard, trust me.

 

The first few years I was happy to be in the place that you are. Actually, I D'd so that it wouldn't have to be complicated on my end and so I could feel a sense of integrity with regard to my exH. But eventually my love just grew deeper and an A just wasn't meeting all of my needs. I guess I fooled myself into thinking it would be enough indefinitely, since it had been before.

 

I hope you're not fooling yourself now. I really hope not.

Edited August 9, 2010 by White Flower

[bestplayer]

Before I explain, I know that what I'm about to describe is morally wrong, and would cause major problems if anyone found out about it. The quick version is that I'm married and I've gotten involved with a married friend. We're all part of a large group of friends, which makes it much riskier if anyone finds out. We all get together maybe once a month and usually make it an overnight visit, since we live far apart.

 

When we spend time with this other couple, we're the last ones to go to sleep, and we've always stayed up just hanging out and talking. Recently, this guy and I ended up kissing and were pretty shocked at our behavior. The next time, it went a little further and I felt horrible about it. I'm not "that type," and I've never cheated or even lied to anyone I've ever dated, much less my husband. But as I played it over in my head, flogging myself for my bad behavior, something strange happened: it didn't feel THAT wrong. And it only made me appreciate my husband more.

 

This time, after everyone went to bed, we decided to talk about what happened last time. And we found ourselves on the same page--somehow we didn't hate ourselves, and we were surprised that we could rationalize what happened. We decided to just enjoy hanging out...but ended up intimate again.

 

This is really confusing for me. I have no doubts about my relationship or his. Neither of us would leave our spouses, and we're both really happy. Of course, clearly *something* is "wrong" if we're willing to stray, but I honestly have no gripes about my life and wouldn't change anything about my relationship. Neither would he. But now we're both enjoying this "secret rendezvous" between us.

 

It's stirring up so many questions within me, and shaking my moral framework. If nobody knows but us, and it's not hurting our relationships with our spouses, is it really that awful? That's a rhetorical question--I know dishonesty in a relationship (even in the absence of infidelity) is dangerous. I know the answer to this.

 

But I can't help myself, and I can't help wondering if monogamy is antiquated or not natural for most people.

 

In my line of work, I've learned a lot about people that they wouldn't tell their best friends, or even an anonymous survey. I've found that infidelity is common, and I wonder how terrible this kind of situation really is if both parties are otherwise committed and not planning to leave their spouses or pursue a deeper relationship.

 

We've developed a relationship that (without even physical intimacy) transcends friendship. We finish each other's sentences, and thoughts. We don't need to say much, and we can communicate a lot at length in front of our friends and spouses.

 

Any thoughts?

 

...if nobody knows but us, and it's not hurting our relationships with our spouses, is it really that awful...?

 

well i think even if it affects your relationship with your spouse to the extent that you both fell for each other & end up leaving your spouses , it is not awful because then you will be only following your heart .

 

Best ofluck

[jwi71]

But I can't help myself, and I can't help wondering if monogamy is antiquated or not natural for most people.

 

OK...if YOU feel that marriage is antiquated then leave it. In fact, in many respects you have. Because, while HE thinks HIS M is between YOU and HIM, YOU have a somewhat looser definition of "between two people".

 

So, tell your H that you want to have an open M and you want to explore your sexuality and emotional connections with others. Tell him HE is free to do the same. He might enjoy an open marriage too.

 

Or, maybe you wish to forgo emotional connections with others and simply have physical relationships with others. He, of course, is free to do the same. Welcome to the swinging lifestyle - he might agree to this.

 

In any case, your H is certainly deserves to know that his M has changed and now allows for sexual contact with others. He may agree. Or he may not. But you certainly owe him the respect to TELL him the M has changed. Allow him to decide if he wishes to change "the rules" with you - or D you. Especially since it is likely he thinks that M is between ou and himself - not third parties. Tell him you are changing that and the M is now...more than two.

 

Every person deserves and has the right to have all pertinent information about their life - so tell him and change your marital "contract". Swinging is ok, an open M is ok...but cheating is almost universally reviled.

[YellowShark]

Hi Carrie999,

 

Here's my advice. Read my thread:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t240671/

 

Maybe that will give you some perspective on what it feels like being the BS.

 

All the best.

[Confused4Now]

You WILL fall in love and it WILL eventually become a problem for you.

 

Get out now before you're both totally lost in love, and you're totally emotionally dependent on one another.

 

I'm wrapping up a 5 year A so I know what I'm talking about. I remember the days you're speaking of now and if I could go back, I'd take all the calls, sparkly eye glances, and lunch dates and chalk them up to fine compliments and then leave it at that, then say goodbye. Because once you become emotionally dependent and he's not willing to do what it takes to be with you, you WILL hate yourself. Or be very angry with yourself.

 

I hated so much admitting that, but it's true, the longer you're in love, the more you become emotionally dependent on your lover. It's hard, trust me.

 

The first few years I was happy to be in the place that you are. Actually, I D'd so that it wouldn't have to be complicated on my end and so I could feel a sense of integrity with regard to my exH. But eventually my love just grew deeper and an A just wasn't meeting all of my needs. I guess I fooled myself into thinking it would be enough indefinitely, since it had been before.

 

I hope you're not fooling yourself now. I really hope not.

I'm with WF on this...I divorced my W early on the affair only to see the dynamics of the A changing . You really do find out how much you're not getting once you leave a marriage. It's now almost 5 years for me and I've pretty much wrapped up the A. Don't fool yourself....don't settle for scraps...it's not worth it. Everything WF says is so true cause I lived it.

[torranceshipman]

Before I explain, I know that what I'm about to describe is morally wrong, and would cause major problems if anyone found out about it. The quick version is that I'm married and I've gotten involved with a married friend. We're all part of a large group of friends, which makes it much riskier if anyone finds out. We all get together maybe once a month and usually make it an overnight visit, since we live far apart.

 

When we spend time with this other couple, we're the last ones to go to sleep, and we've always stayed up just hanging out and talking. Recently, this guy and I ended up kissing and were pretty shocked at our behavior. The next time, it went a little further and I felt horrible about it. I'm not "that type," and I've never cheated or even lied to anyone I've ever dated, much less my husband. But as I played it over in my head, flogging myself for my bad behavior, something strange happened: it didn't feel THAT wrong. And it only made me appreciate my husband more.

 

This time, after everyone went to bed, we decided to talk about what happened last time. And we found ourselves on the same page--somehow we didn't hate ourselves, and we were surprised that we could rationalize what happened. We decided to just enjoy hanging out...but ended up intimate again.

 

This is really confusing for me. I have no doubts about my relationship or his. Neither of us would leave our spouses, and we're both really happy. Of course, clearly *something* is "wrong" if we're willing to stray, but I honestly have no gripes about my life and wouldn't change anything about my relationship. Neither would he. But now we're both enjoying this "secret rendezvous" between us.

 

It's stirring up so many questions within me, and shaking my moral framework. If nobody knows but us, and it's not hurting our relationships with our spouses, is it really that awful? That's a rhetorical question--I know dishonesty in a relationship (even in the absence of infidelity) is dangerous. I know the answer to this.

 

But I can't help myself, and I can't help wondering if monogamy is antiquated or not natural for most people.

 

In my line of work, I've learned a lot about people that they wouldn't tell their best friends, or even an anonymous survey. I've found that infidelity is common, and I wonder how terrible this kind of situation really is if both parties are otherwise committed and not planning to leave their spouses or pursue a deeper relationship.

 

We've developed a relationship that (without even physical intimacy) transcends friendship. We finish each other's sentences, and thoughts. We don't need to say much, and we can communicate a lot at length in front of our friends and spouses.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Firstly, it doesn't matter if the whole world and his monther are also doing it - that provides NO justification for you.

 

You've both gone down that classic path of twisting your frames of reference so that the immorality of the behavior doesn't bother you any more. You'd be surprised at how slippery that particular slope is!

 

And who cares whether monogamy is natural or not? That is irrelevant. YOU both chose to stand in church and in front of your families making a promise to each other, so breaking THAT promise is why this is so wrong. And it is wrong because you have disrespected your H so much.

 

I am not judging - just throwing out facts.

 

And the last thing - there is a chance your H will find out, and all your mutual friends. How would you feel then? Chances are you'd fall to pieces over losing him so why risk all that, just for a fumble or two?

[In_Repair]

Honestly I'm so tired of seeing BS posting here...

 

Why?

 

I know that some people here see their advice as mean and nothing but a cheap shot, but instead of jumping to that conclusion, maybe you could consider that they are trying to help the OW/OM by giving them another perspective and pointing out aspects of their situation that they haven't considered. I've been a BS, but I've also been an OM. Am I not allowed to base my advice on ALL of my experiences, or am I expected to only see things through the rose colored glasses of an AP?

[Confused4Now]

Why?

 

I know that some people here see their advice as mean and nothing but a cheap shot, but instead of jumping to that conclusion, maybe you could consider that they are trying to help the OW/OM by giving them another perspective and pointing out aspects of their situation that they haven't considered. I've been a BS, but I've also been an OM. Am I not allowed to base my advice on ALL of my experiences, or am I expected to only see things through the rose colored glasses of an AP?

I do agree with you point however it's how most of the BS's deliver their message. There is a way of doing things. I could give you a million examples of how not to say something. which is why so many OM/OW drop off from these forums..I've taken the route of just going over the messages from the people who always have the same message. I think over time you know who they are.....and btw. I was a WS, BS and now OM. So I've been all of them.

[Silly_Girl]

Honestly I'm so tired of seeing BS posting here...

 

I see posters come here looking for OW/OM p.o.v. so wouldn't it make sense that if residents here specifically wanted the BS take on things, they'd go there? Or is that not how it works?

[2sure]

Affairs happen in completely happy marriages, although most OW/OM will argue just like you said that something must be wrong. Although, the argument seems moot simply because the results are usually the same.

 

Either the affair will, as you suggest, undermine the marriage or upon d-day if there is one...worlds collide, lives change.

 

As to what you ask...why are you feeling comfortable with this? You said yourself it seems harmless to others. If undermining your marriage is harmless ok...but you are comfortable and not feeling guilty because...you like it. It is something nice all for you as long as you keep it in the box. Its a selfish thing.

 

Is it worth the risk? Usually not. Something almost always seems to happen.

 

What I would ask is: Is it worth it to undermine your own principals, self worth , and integrity? Those characteristics are not something that can be kept in or out of a box. Those are the characteristics that make up who you are. If you choose to compromise them, at the possible expense of your family, thats up to you. But understand you cannot keep your values and betray the one who loves you most at the same time.

[Owl]

Before I explain, I know that what I'm about to describe is morally wrong, and would cause major problems if anyone found out about it. The quick version is that I'm married and I've gotten involved with a married friend. We're all part of a large group of friends, which makes it much riskier if anyone finds out. We all get together maybe once a month and usually make it an overnight visit, since we live far apart.

 

Well, your first few sentences answer the question posed in the title of the thread already...no need to go any further than this, really.

 

 

 

But I can't help myself, and I can't help wondering if monogamy is antiquated or not natural for most people.

 

Excellent question. Some people aren't cut out for it.

 

The question you really need to ask here is twofold.

 

Am I willing to remain monogamous to my husband.

 

Would my H accept a non-monogamous relationship with me?

 

The bottom line is that you're already in an emotional affair. You're just now realizing it.

 

What are you going to do about it? Continue the illicit friendship and lie to your husband about it? End the friendship? End the marriage?

 

You know it's wrong. Now you need to decide what you're going to do to make it right.

[YellowShark]

Honestly I'm so tired of seeing BS posting here...

 

While you may be tired of seeing BSs posting here it is a disservice to oneself by refusing to see things from "both sides of the coin." By not trying to see things from both sides of the coin one is simply favouring information that confirms their preconceptions, and selectively interpreting these preconceptions in a biased way.

[Silly_Girl]

While you may be tired of seeing BSs posting here it is a disservice to oneself by refusing to see things from "both sides of the coin." By not trying to see things from both sides of the coin one is simply favouring information that confirms their preconceptions, and selectively interpreting these preconceptions in a biased way.

 

Or asking people who've been in similar positions for their own experiences?

[BB07]

While you may be tired of seeing BSs posting here it is a disservice to oneself by refusing to see things from "both sides of the coin." By not trying to see things from both sides of the coin one is simply favouring information that confirms their preconceptions, and selectively interpreting these preconceptions in a biased way.

 

Fact is......we all have our biased view depending on our own life experiences. It also depends on just how fresh the experience is as to how we see things.

 

Hopefully we all can look at both sides of the fence, but when some try to shove the fence post down the throat, it doesn't go down well and no one wants to swallow. Who wants to choke on a fence post?

 

No.......I'm not saying you are doing that, but there are some here that do.

[TaraMaiden]

Excellent question. Some people aren't cut out for it.

 

The question you really need to ask here is twofold.

 

Am I willing to remain monogamous to my husband.

 

Would my H accept a non-monogamous relationship with me?

 

The bottom line is that you're already in an emotional affair. You're just now realizing it.

 

What are you going to do about it? Continue the illicit friendship and lie to your husband about it? End the friendship? End the marriage?

 

You know it's wrong. Now you need to decide what you're going to do to make it right.

 

This is an excellent post.

I personally do not believe Monogamy is a naturally occurring state.

I think it's in response to social/legal/religious conditioning.

 

That said, what owl says is absolutely spot-on. His two questions are exactly the most pertinent you should be asking.

But furthermore, fundamentally, you chose to place yourself within a Monogamous relationship, when you recited your marriage vows. This was a deliberate and conscious decision you made, at the time.

Doubtless at the time, you also meant it.

If your mindset has developed and changed to question that - the fairest thing, the best and most wise thing - would be to admit that to your H.

 

And while I personally don't think non-monogamous relationships are wrong, what you are doing IS wrong. Because it involves deceit, subterfuge, secrecy, and frankly, probably a whole lot of "can-of-worms" schyt, if everything gets out into the open.

you need to pre-empt this, and be open.

because the alternative will be too destructive and devastating to contemplate.

[NancyBotwin]

Honestly I'm so tired of seeing BS posting here...

Honestly, I'm so tired of seeing people who think they own Loveshack telling other people on an OPEN FORUM that they are not welcome to post. It's rude.

[In_Repair]

I do agree with you point however it's how most of the BS's deliver their message. There is a way of doing things. I could give you a million examples of how not to say something. which is why so many OM/OW drop off from these forums..I've taken the route of just going over the messages from the people who always have the same message. I think over time you know who they are.....and btw. I was a WS, BS and now OM. So I've been all of them.

 

You have a very valid point, and I do understand how it would piss people off. On the other hand, as you must know, being a BS isn't exactly a walk in the part, and these people are hurting too. It might be wrong for them to vent in this forum or to ask posters questions that they should really be asking their WS, but it might be the only outlet they have. Compassion and understanding can extend both ways.

[White Flower]

I'm with WF on this...I divorced my W early on the affair only to see the dynamics of the A changing . You really do find out how much you're not getting once you leave a marriage. It's now almost 5 years for me and I've pretty much wrapped up the A. Don't fool yourself....don't settle for scraps...it's not worth it. Everything WF says is so true cause I lived it.

We so need to meet for coffee:cool:

[Owl]

This is an excellent post.

I personally do not believe Monogamy is a naturally occurring state.

I think it's in response to social/legal/religious conditioning.

 

That said, what owl says is absolutely spot-on. His two questions are exactly the most pertinent you should be asking.

But furthermore, fundamentally, you chose to place yourself within a Monogamous relationship, when you recited your marriage vows. This was a deliberate and conscious decision you made, at the time.

Doubtless at the time, you also meant it.

If your mindset has developed and changed to question that - the fairest thing, the best and most wise thing - would be to admit that to your H.

 

And while I personally don't think non-monogamous relationships are wrong, what you are doing IS wrong. Because it involves deceit, subterfuge, secrecy, and frankly, probably a whole lot of "can-of-worms" schyt, if everything gets out into the open.

you need to pre-empt this, and be open.

because the alternative will be too destructive and devastating to contemplate.

 

Tara, I've got to say that I loved this post.

 

ESPECIALLY since I happen to be a polar opposite of your view...monogamy is very common in "the natural world".

 

What I love about your post is that we can completely disagree on monogamy...and still completely agree on the advice we're giving the OP.

 

That works for me!

[White Flower]

While you may be tired of seeing BSs posting here it is a disservice to oneself by refusing to see things from "both sides of the coin." By not trying to see things from both sides of the coin one is simply favouring information that confirms their preconceptions, and selectively interpreting these preconceptions in a biased way.

So true, and even better if you follow your own advice.

[TaraMaiden]

I don't want to derail this thread, but actually, 'Monogamy' is not as common as some believe, 'in the Natural World'.

There are virtually NO mammals at all, that are monogamous. Very few.

And humans (as mammals) are - according to Naturalist studies - NOT a monogamous mammal.

 

For further reference, please see this link.

 

But while I am a person that holds certain views about Monogamy, I agree completely with your viewpoint on deceit, fidelity, cheating and subterfuge.

 

It's simply wrong.

 

Thanks, Owl!

[carrie999]

Thank you all for your input, and for being so non-judgmental while being frank and honest. I know what you're saying is right, and I need to end this before anyone other than the two of us gets hurt. I was dreading reading the responses here, expecting that all of you burned a scarlet "A" into my chest, but I really appreciate the understanding.

 

Since I posted, I've been through a whirlwind of thoughts and emotions. If I hadn't heard from him last night, the next thing I would have said to him is that we need to stop now. I still think that's the best approach, but I'll be honest...I'm already in it...

[nadiaj2727]

Yep, you're already sliding down the slippery slope. The question to ask yourself, after reading all the helpful posts from these posters who have BTDT and know it ends up in disaster, is do you want to stop sliding or keep sliding??

[whichwayisup]

. Recently, this guy and I ended up kissing and were pretty shocked at our behavior. The next time, it went a little further and I felt horrible about it. I'm not "that type," and I've never cheated or even lied to anyone I've ever dated, much less my husband. But as I played it over in my head, flogging myself for my bad behavior, something strange happened: it didn't feel THAT wrong. And it only made me appreciate my husband more.

 

This time, after everyone went to bed, we decided to talk about what happened last time. And we found ourselves on the same page--somehow we didn't hate ourselves, and we were surprised that we could rationalize what happened. We decided to just enjoy hanging out...but ended up intimate again.

 

You're being selfish and putting yourself IN the situation where it keeps on happening. You don't feel guilty or really that bad, both of you have justified the cheating, so yeah, it's going to happen AGAIN because you're letting it.

 

When your husband finds out, you should print out this thread and see how he feels about this. It's only a matter of time before he finds out, I wouldn't be surprised if afew of the others figured it out either..

 

Anyway, if you want it over, make it be over and focus on your husband. Reconnect with him and forget this MM friend. It's going to explode and innocent people are going to be hurt (your H, his W) as well as change the WHOLE dynamic of the group friendship.

 

How would you feel if your H was fooling around with one of the married girls, not once, not twice but three times and STILL wanted to fool around, even though he thought it was wrong and would hurt you deeply?