Back to the old refrain - Why is sex so difficult a topic

[flying]

IME, the want is, essentially, the *desire* and *impulsion* to be intimate physically and emotionally. One *feels* it in their partner. Once I lost that, my wife (now stbx) *sensed* it and she knew she didn't have me anymore, at that elemental level. I didn't desire her in that raw and perhaps animalistic way that causes humans to mate and be monogamous. Yes, we can love, be faithful, be loyal and steady companions but there's a feeling that changes. A spouse picks up on it. Depending on their psychology, such can be a minor nuiscance or it can be a deal-breaker.

 

Wow, this really resonated with me, carhill. It's definitely something to think about...I've been pondering whether I can deal with my partner not having that level of desire, which I do equate with intimacy. He has said that emotional intimacy for him is not connected to sex...this is a source of some of our issues. A consequence of him not wanting and desiring me is that I feel less intimate with him, and at times distant. I worry that the distance will only grow.

 

Something to think about indeed. Great post.

[giotto]

Wow, this really resonated with me, carhill. It's definitely something to think about...I've been pondering whether I can deal with my partner not having that level of desire, which I do equate with intimacy. He has said that emotional intimacy for him is not connected to sex...this is a source of some of our issues. A consequence of him not wanting and desiring me is that I feel less intimate with him, and at times distant. I worry that the distance will only grow.

 

Something to think about indeed. Great post.

 

I call it "connection"... on the "animalistic" side - a big push in the first few years - it's gone... there are other types of "connections", but none as powerful as the primal one... it's important... I believe a marriage without this is not a marriage anymore. It's friendship.

[Mr. Lucky]

Marriage taught me a lot, primarily about the differences between viewing dynamics as right vs wrong as opposed to compatible and incompatible. Prior, black and white, right and wrong thinking prevailed, with little real hard work on acceptance. After, more focus on compatibility (or not) with acceptance of that dynamic. So, if I were in TDP's dynamic, I would view our sexual dynamic as incompatible, accept that incompatibility, and decide if the marriage in totality was valuable enough to myself to remain. This presumes all the talking and bending had already been done, and it appears it has in his case. Hope it works out for him and his wife.

TDP, what if it's as simple as this? Not your fault and not her's, just incompatible in this sense. I would guess it helps to have an answer but it also provides a sense that no amount of discussion, negotiation or LS posting is ever going to bring you satisfaction in this regard...

 

Mr. Lucky

[carhill]

I should have said 'marriage counseling' taught me a lot, and those perspectives run far beyond dealing with marriage/divorce.

 

If TDP and his wife have *freely* and *without reservation* accepted their sexual dynamic and *agreed* the total marital dynamic is still a positive force in their lives worth continuing and nourishing, then they *each* can move forward, acting and speaking in positive ways about that resolution. Build upon their compatibilities, while accepting their incompatibilities. 'We have enough (this is acceptance of the incompatibilities) sex and I love her and being married to her (this is accepting the compatibilities)'. IMO, if they *both* cannot achieve this resolution, after reasonable time and MC (I'd put a timeline on it; in our case it was a year of active effort), then divorce. Accept that path (of divorce) is one potential road to mutual health.

[GordonDarkfoot]

what about simple answer, like a low sex drive?

 

While simple, it's an inadequate "answer" precisely because it's "simple" (acutally, it's tautological).

[GordonDarkfoot]

Sorry to hear (intimate) from your post that little has changed. Yes I agree Gordon is wrong..... I was just venting and again asking that perplexing question "If sex is good, why not more often?"

 

TDP, you are obviously entitled to reject my opinion--but I spent a great deal of time and effort providing my best response to your situation. "Gordon is wrong"? Um, O.K. And you seek common cause with a brother Giotto apparently in a similar predicament.

 

You don't have to respond to me of course--but which part of what I posted was "wrong" and how did you arrive at that conclusion? Just askin'.

 

I tried to answer the question: "If sex is good why not more often?" The answer I tried to provide was that your wife does not view sex as an activity to be engaged in simply because it is "good"/pleasurable.

 

Sex happens to be something that you want from her, can get ONLY from her (assuming you're faithful), and that she has the unilateral power to deprive you of. While according to you, she gets plenty of satisfaction from having sex, she must be getting MORE satisfaction from NOT having sex with you, when she refuses to have it, which is most of the time.

 

So what possible satisfaction can there be in NOT having SEX, which surpasses the satisfaction of HAVING sex? It has to be very powerful, and it has to be psychological/emotional.

 

The problem is that you don't want to look at your wife in this particular way--as being capable of getting some sort of powerful, positive validation out of depriving you of sex.

 

Here's the difference: Often I feel very tired in the evenings, although I certainly find my wife to be attractive. However if we miss having sex for too many evenings in a row, SHE will express dissatisfaction with that state of affairs to ME. AND IT IS MORE THAN OBVIOUS to me, that she is not simply interested in getting an orgasm--it is clear to me, from the way she behaves and things she says about it, that her PRIMARY concern is that there is something wrong EMOTIONALLY between us, that "something is wrong" when I let too many days go by without trying to initiate sex with her. That is HER perception as a woman. I do NOT think she is unusual in that regard. While she might reference a desire for sex due to an unsatisfied sex drive, this is RARE. FAR MORE OFTEN my wife will express a concern that LACK OF SEX = RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM/EMOTIONAL DEPRIVATION.

 

It's interesting to me that in your OP, all you seemingly talked about was your wife's track record of physical/orgasmic satisfaction ("95%!!!!"). There was virtually NOTHING about the EMOTIONAL CONTEXT of your marital sex life. It's like a complete VOID. Why is that? Is it simply my misperception?

 

 

 

I take it even further as everything is about the "O" in my feeble male mind..... Find an amount that works where the orgasm too works at a high level..... I can say safely as a MALE that I could claim wanting sex 2X/day, but that would result in orgasms that are not as enjoyable and pleasing, so I don't want that. So I ask the same from women.

 

 

No I guess my perception was correct. Your discussion of your marital sex life is essentially devoid of a recognition of the emotional significance of sex in a marriage.

[GordonDarkfoot]

I would not say that little has changed, but that not enough has changed. It's frustrating, but I've come to the conclusion that the problem is not solvable without IC for her and she keeps stalling. I have no other options, because "forcing" her to go to IC would be counter-productive. On the other hand, I'm sure she knows I'm disappointed but she is too selfish and too wrapped-up in herself to be able to change without external inputs. So, as usual, I'm stuck. But I'm not complaining to her or anybody. I know I have the choice to leave.

 

 

Giotto, why not just tell her that if she doesn't give you more sex, you will find someone else to have it with?

[Mr. Lucky]

Giotto, why not just tell her that if she doesn't give you more sex, you will find someone else to have it with?

What happens when she calls your bluff? The sexual part of a marriage doesn't exist in a vacuum, it's part of the overall fabric of life. Kids, finances, history, extended families and even physical and emotional health are at risk if you go outside your marriage for sex whether thru affair, separation or with consent. I would assume most guys posting here have already made that risk/reward calculation and found it wanting. They don't want to just have more sex, they want more sex WITH their wives...

 

Mr. Lucky

[giotto]

Giotto, why not just tell her that if she doesn't give you more sex, you will find someone else to have it with?

 

a couple of points, Gordon... a simple answer is not tautological... a simple answer is a simple answer, full stop. It's not a repetition of meaning to stress anything. But I know what you are getting at.

 

I can find someone else to have sex with, but that would involve a divorce. I would have a divorce, but they are 4 children involved. Having said that, I will have a divorce when time is right. Myself, like probably TDP, are not suffering a big deal on the grand scale of things... there will be a time when I will be able to fine tune that...

[mem11363]

G,

We see this in a similar manner. My W does NOT have an O every time we connect. Maybe 1/3 she doesn't and starts off kind of knowing she likely won't. She says she likes being "close" whether or not I get her to the rapture. I truly believe that.

 

She ALSO likes connecting because it makes me happy. Just as making her happy gives me pleasure, making me happy brings her pleasure. AND since not having sex for more than some number of days causes me to start feeling edgy - she also wants to - so I don't feel that way.

 

There is a term called "normal marital sadism". My W DEFINITELY engages in this. But not via our sex life - too dangerous. She prefers to do this via emasculative banter and I often respond by threatening to (and if needed actually doing it) spank her.

 

I think TDP's W may be indulging her desire for NMS via sexual deprivation. For sure it gives her a constant upper hand in the marriage.

 

 

 

 

TDP, you are obviously entitled to reject my opinion--but I spent a great deal of time and effort providing my best response to your situation. "Gordon is wrong"? Um, O.K. And you seek common cause with a brother Giotto apparently in a similar predicament.

 

You don't have to respond to me of course--but which part of what I posted was "wrong" and how did you arrive at that conclusion? Just askin'.

 

I tried to answer the question: "If sex is good why not more often?" The answer I tried to provide was that your wife does not view sex as an activity to be engaged in simply because it is "good"/pleasurable.

 

Sex happens to be something that you want from her, can get ONLY from her (assuming you're faithful), and that she has the unilateral power to deprive you of. While according to you, she gets plenty of satisfaction from having sex, she must be getting MORE satisfaction from NOT having sex with you, when she refuses to have it, which is most of the time.

 

So what possible satisfaction can there be in NOT having SEX, which surpasses the satisfaction of HAVING sex? It has to be very powerful, and it has to be psychological/emotional.

 

The problem is that you don't want to look at your wife in this particular way--as being capable of getting some sort of powerful, positive validation out of depriving you of sex.

 

Here's the difference: Often I feel very tired in the evenings, although I certainly find my wife to be attractive. However if we miss having sex for too many evenings in a row, SHE will express dissatisfaction with that state of affairs to ME. AND IT IS MORE THAN OBVIOUS to me, that she is not simply interested in getting an orgasm--it is clear to me, from the way she behaves and things she says about it, that her PRIMARY concern is that there is something wrong EMOTIONALLY between us, that "something is wrong" when I let too many days go by without trying to initiate sex with her. That is HER perception as a woman. I do NOT think she is unusual in that regard. While she might reference a desire for sex due to an unsatisfied sex drive, this is RARE. FAR MORE OFTEN my wife will express a concern that LACK OF SEX = RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM/EMOTIONAL DEPRIVATION.

 

It's interesting to me that in your OP, all you seemingly talked about was your wife's track record of physical/orgasmic satisfaction ("95%!!!!"). There was virtually NOTHING about the EMOTIONAL CONTEXT of your marital sex life. It's like a complete VOID. Why is that? Is it simply my misperception?

 

 

 

 

 

 

No I guess my perception was correct. Your discussion of your marital sex life is essentially devoid of a recognition of the emotional significance of sex in a marriage.

[You Go Girl]

Some of you may be reading too much into this. Some of you are probably spot on.

Those this woman thinks are spot on: The ones focusing on the EMOTIONAL INTIMACY factor.

Women aren't as physically tuned into having sex. You have to warm up our brains first.

That said, things in motion tend to stay in motion--this goes for women and sex lives. Things at rest tend to stay at rest--this applies too of course.

Your wife isn't as close to you as the wives of those who have frequent sex. She is not interested in that much INTIMACY.

So the things to try all involve greater intimacy. You may be able to achieve this, or you may be incompatible to achieve this, or you W may simply not be interested in intimacy with any man, period, or, she's very likely clueless as to the benefits of being truly intimate. <--I'm betting this last one is the answer.

There's a good chance she's never been truly close to a man. Because the ones that have, demand it from then on in all future relationships, and they are the ones having a lot of sex. (aside from the attention seeking types or psychologically messed up women--I'm only talking about healthy relationships here).

[xxoo]

Your wife isn't as close to you as the wives of those who have frequent sex. She is not interested in that much INTIMACY.

 

Interesting idea. I have to say, this is true for me. I need the closeness of sex several times a week more than I need the physical release of sex. The closeness leads to the sexual feelings for the most part (body to body contact).

[mem11363]

YGG,

Your W has to want to BE close/intimate with you. I agree you can't be a jerk and expect to get laid - but I also think LOTS of the men who struggle do the "intimacy/listening" etc. and do it well and still get the brush off.

 

In the case of most of the "nice guys" I am guessing their wives would NOT complain about a lack of intimacy - in fact maybe just the opposite.

 

 

Some of you may be reading too much into this. Some of you are probably spot on.

Those this woman thinks are spot on: The ones focusing on the EMOTIONAL INTIMACY factor.

Women aren't as physically tuned into having sex. You have to warm up our brains first.

That said, things in motion tend to stay in motion--this goes for women and sex lives. Things at rest tend to stay at rest--this applies too of course.

Your wife isn't as close to you as the wives of those who have frequent sex. She is not interested in that much INTIMACY.

So the things to try all involve greater intimacy. You may be able to achieve this, or you may be incompatible to achieve this, or you W may simply not be interested in intimacy with any man, period, or, she's very likely clueless as to the benefits of being truly intimate. <--I'm betting this last one is the answer.

There's a good chance she's never been truly close to a man. Because the ones that have, demand it from then on in all future relationships, and they are the ones having a lot of sex. (aside from the attention seeking types or psychologically messed up women--I'm only talking about healthy relationships here).

[giotto]

She is not interested in that much INTIMACY.

 

This has hit a nerve with me as well. Obviously, my wife doesn't need that much intimacy with me. The reason? She gets it from the children. Different type of intimacy, but still intimacy. And it's much easier to deal with...

[You Go Girl]

YGG,

Your W has to want to BE close/intimate with you. I agree you can't be a jerk and expect to get laid - but I also think LOTS of the men who struggle do the "intimacy/listening" etc. and do it well and still get the brush off.

 

In the case of most of the "nice guys" I am guessing their wives would NOT complain about a lack of intimacy - in fact maybe just the opposite.

 

Yes, they do have to want to be close to you.

You can try to help them desire that closeness=intimacy, which leads to more sex. You may indeed fail at such efforts. Some women have no desire for more intimacy period, but all that don't desire intimacy are clueless as to the benefits of a truly close relationship. They haven't been there, don't understand it, and feel intimidated by the attempts to get it. They only see what they view as badgering by their SO's for more sex, and for some men, they too are not interested in intimacy, but only the sex. In the latter cases, the women reject their SO's advances because it feels like being used, and it is.

As for "nice guys", well, they don't push for intimacy, don't push at anything.

A little pushing isn't always a bad thing. Women do have less desire until warmed up or already in "motion mode" as I put it earlier.

For 'nice guys' I suggest actions like approaching a woman from behind at her computer chair, putting his arms around her neck, kissing her neck. It is submissive for her, and it's highly erotic. That's a physical action. Emotionally, you have to stay on top of things.

Just make sure you are pushing for intimacy, not sex. The increased sex will simply be a given with increased intimacy.

That said, some people, both women and men, simply don't put intimacy that high on their priority list. Many are busy with careers, etc., and are focused on that. Others are a different type, cooler, like the more formal or business type of marriage. These types don't want too much intimacy, it would feel clingy to them.

My whole point is that for women sex=intimacy. Without intimacy, she will not be interested. Men obviously have a higher libido and will seek sex without needing as much intimacy to get their motor running.

So when we talk about different desire levels, I think we are really talking about a good pairing of intimacy.

[You Go Girl]

This has hit a nerve with me as well. Obviously, my wife doesn't need that much intimacy with me. The reason? She gets it from the children. Different type of intimacy, but still intimacy. And it's much easier to deal with...

 

It is a different type of intimacy. It is also her life goal, to raise children well, so it is a 'career' decision that takes priority over intimacy with you. So you're less important than the children on two fronts. That's the way a healthy mother is; she will choose her children everytime.

However a balance can be found, by doing the things that can pull her out of 'mommy mode' and prioritize intimacy with you as well as raising her children. I'm guessing here, but I think the trick is to never let the children become so much of a focus singly--that is without the father also hovering over with by her side, so that it is a paired priority. She won't separate her parenting from her relationship with you, but see it as your parenting-your in this case meaning the two of you, not her alone.

It's easier to deal with? How so? That's not really the question, or the answer. Intimacy with children is not satisfying on an adult emotional level, ever.

I think what all women in 'mommy mode' don't fully realize or accept is that ignoring their H's attempts at intimacy will come back to bite them in the arse. It is in their own best interests to keep that intimacy a priority and not lose it to parenting on a singular level. If a mother is alone with the children far more hours than the H around, she can easily start to think that he is not as important a part of raising the children. It is a mistake of course, but one that can be easily understood given how much time she is alone with the children without the father around. This is how men get to that point of becoming frustrated enough to say whiney stuff like: "I'm just a paycheck".

She's not wrong, he's not wrong. But neither took a good look at what really happened, which I explained above. It's actually a good argument for mothers to stay at least part-time in the workforce. Keeps them from falling into the mommy mode fog.

[You Go Girl]

Interesting idea. I have to say, this is true for me. I need the closeness of sex several times a week more than I need the physical release of sex. The closeness leads to the sexual feelings for the most part (body to body contact).

 

Exactly. And why women can completely enjoy sex without orgasming everytime.

The intimacy is more important for women. Release or orgasm is important when we need it, but we seem to need that release less often. We also ebb and flow, some weeks we want release many times, other weeks we could care less.

Often for me when I'm not interested in orgasm, I am very interested in loving looks in his eyes, how good it feels to be held, how good it feels to be having sex, because that is good in itself, without release.

Can I enjoy half an hour of penetration as much as my partner even if I don't orgasm? yes.

It's also why some people practice tantric sex. The goal isn't the release, but a sustained high.

[xxoo]

YGG,

Your W has to want to BE close/intimate with you. I agree you can't be a jerk and expect to get laid - but I also think LOTS of the men who struggle do the "intimacy/listening" etc. and do it well and still get the brush off.

 

In the case of most of the "nice guys" I am guessing their wives would NOT complain about a lack of intimacy - in fact maybe just the opposite.

 

"Nice guy" doesn't mean that intimacy is strong. He may be doting, chatty, and adoring--even a doormat (never good), but that doesn't equal intimacy.

 

You can only offer intimacy. The intended reciever has to be open to accepting it. If she isn't interested, or just isn't in the mood at the moment, the attempts at intimacy will be smothering and irritating.

 

The real questions is: why doesn't the LD partner crave more intimacy (not nec sex)? I've asked before--what happens on the "no sex" days? Do people really go 6 days between a full body, skin to skin hug? I can go a month without an orgasm (I don't, but I can), but I can't live without those full body hugs. And then, once we are already hugging body to body.....things progress naturally a lot of the time.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Exactly. And why women can completely enjoy sex without orgasming everytime.

The intimacy is more important for women. Release or orgasm is important when we need it, but we seem to need that release less often. We also ebb and flow, some weeks we want release many times, other weeks we could care less.

Often for me when I'm not interested in orgasm, I am very interested in loving looks in his eyes, how good it feels to be held, how good it feels to be having sex, because that is good in itself, without release.

Can I enjoy half an hour of penetration as much as my partner even if I don't orgasm? yes.

It's also why some people practice tantric sex. The goal isn't the release, but a sustained high.

 

An orgasm is important... She doesn't want sex not to reach that goal.... Sure it can be good, also bad..... I can remember only once when I'm sure it was good, though she did not reach orgasm and can unequivocally say it was bad the sporadic other times (and those were always my fault)....

 

Now the reason she is like that lies solely at the feet of her father.

 

Now again the OP was asking a different question as I remember writing it....

[You Go Girl]

An orgasm is important... She doesn't want sex not to reach that goal.... Sure it can be good, also bad..... I can remember only once when I'm sure it was good, though she did not reach orgasm and can unequivocally say it was bad the sporadic other times (and those were always my fault)....

 

Now the reason she is like that lies solely at the feet of her father.

 

Now again the OP was asking a different question as I remember writing it....

 

I was this way in my first marriage. I didn't care for intimacy on a deep level with him, and neither did he want deep intimacy from me, so sex was sex, period, and the orgasm was the goal.

There's a really easy test for intimacy. Will the spouse look you lovingly in the eyes during sex, or do they look away embarrassed? Do they keep their eyes closed? ETc.

[xxoo]

An orgasm is important... She doesn't want sex not to reach that goal.... Sure it can be good, also bad..... I can remember only once when I'm sure it was good, though she did not reach orgasm and can unequivocally say it was bad the sporadic other times (and those were always my fault)....

 

Now the reason she is like that lies solely at the feet of her father.

 

Now again the OP was asking a different question as I remember writing it....

 

I think it is directly related to the question you asked.

 

She has an urge to have sex, based on desire for orgasm, once a week or less.

 

THose of us wives who report craving lots of sex are craving the closeness of sex. When you need that closeness/connection, once a week is not nearly enough. Do you and your wife have physical closeness (skin to skin contact) on the in between days? IME, it is the skin to skin contact (intimacy) that leads to desire for orgasm most of the time.

[giotto]

Intimacy with children is not satisfying on an adult emotional level, ever.

 

Maybe, but my two older "children" are 15 and 18, so she gets lots of "adult" interactions now... I just get the feeling that she is a very reserved person and she doesn't need that much adult intimacy, anyway. She did have it at the beginning with me, but when the children arrived I wasn't needed that much.

 

It's actually a good argument for mothers to stay at least part-time in the workforce. Keeps them from falling into the mommy mode fog.

 

She works full time, so gets even more adult interaction in her workplace. Funnily enough, when we were splitting up, she said that she just wanted to be on her own and with the children... she wasn't interested in any men and she didn't care...

[You Go Girl]

Maybe, but my two older "children" are 15 and 18, so she gets lots of "adult" interactions now... I just get the feeling that she is a very reserved person and she doesn't need that much adult intimacy, anyway. She did have it at the beginning with me, but when the children arrived I wasn't needed that much.

 

 

 

She works full time, so gets even more adult interaction in her workplace. Funnily enough, when we were splitting up, she said that she just wanted to be on her own and with the children... she wasn't interested in any men and she didn't care...

 

Then the only possibility that I can think of that's left is the simple fact that women are not usually that emotionally charged by sex as men are, and she isn't all that interested in very close intimacy, period, no matter what man.

A lot of women don't want their lives that emotionally charged. They prefer a feeling of independence. Similar to men who choose to remain bachelors forever.

Being crazy in love over someone is exhausting. Having some space, so that everyday emotions aren't run by sex or a partnership, gives many people (men and women) a feeling of room to breathe.

Finding a balance between independence as a person, and intimacy, is tricky, isn't it? Quite a skill for those who master it. I suppose it is why marriages work best when based on the thought that divorce is not an option (baring severe dysfunction like abuse, etc.) When normal relationships are based on a lifelong promise, they have more room to succeed, because it's a different mindset. Crazy in love isn't needed, just caring for each other. Leaves that necessary breathing room.

 

It's something to discuss, anyway!

[mem11363]

I love the whole full body hug - clothed or not. Closeness is a gift.

 

 

I think it is directly related to the question you asked.

 

She has an urge to have sex, based on desire for orgasm, once a week or less.

 

THose of us wives who report craving lots of sex are craving the closeness of sex. When you need that closeness/connection, once a week is not nearly enough. Do you and your wife have physical closeness (skin to skin contact) on the in between days? IME, it is the skin to skin contact (intimacy) that leads to desire for orgasm most of the time.