Back to the old refrain - Why is sex so difficult a topic

August 5, 2010

And no I gave up on the "How I got my wife into sex" Thread a long time ago. Our marriage is good, we've gone over that in countless other threads along with ones about sex. My wife enjoys sex in terms of yes she does orgasm 95% of the time (please no arguments).... We talk about it (sex) but do not want to get to the root of the problem and frankly after all these years, while I'll keep trying, not sure if they'll be a resolution and it's not that I go months at a time without it;).

But every once in a while a hot button is pushed and a new issue arises.

We have had some of the "best sex" in years as of late (and this is something that only she can attest to, as for me it can never be really bad:p:D;)). This is after she stated that it was not great and had been off of late. Now you need not know the dynamics of the marriage or the sex, just suffice to say, she still was orgasming, but was not happy about it, maybe it was too mechanical, maybe she had to work for it, I was disjointed in my efforts, I don't know? What makes it hard to tell, is my spouse also is good at remembering the bad and forgetting the good, so while it may have been bad only that 1 time, she will state it has been bad for a while (hope you are following me).....

So not to pat myself on the back (trust me no reason to), it has now really improved and been very good..... But as a male again I am left to wonder, why is it still so few and far between (i.e. why can't we have it say 2X's/wk)..... Of course once when she stated she was in the mood, mother nature interfered.....

Edited August 5, 2010 by Toodamnpragmatic

August 5, 2010

I haven't read your past threads nor do I know the age of you or your wife - However, my 2 cents worth goes like this.

I think age is a very big factor in the long breaks in sex. I also think work & family stress levels affect it as well.

My husband & I, (he is 50 - I am 48) We are empty nesters. Many believe that empty nesters have sex all over the place 24/7:). It's just not true. Even with my friends that are our age. It's a myth. But, when we do have it, it's great & we usually do the 2,3,4 days in a row. Then it can be a week & sometimes 2 before it happens again. He travels too, so obviously those long work trips make a difference. Personally, I think both issues I mentioned are involved with us at this point in our lives. Hasn't always been this way. Neither of us is complaining, we both know it's temporary. (hopefully)

Could stress, work load, age, play a factor in your situation? Or has it always been this way?

August 5, 2010

I haven't read your past threads nor do I know the age of you or your wife - However, my 2 cents worth goes like this.
I think age is a very big factor in the long breaks in sex. I also think work & family stress levels affect it as well.
My husband & I, (he is 50 - I am 48) We are empty nesters. Many believe that empty nesters have sex all over the place 24/7:). It's just not true. Even with my friends that are our age. It's a myth. But, when we do have it, it's great & we usually do the 2,3,4 days in a row. Then it can be a week & sometimes 2 before it happens again. He travels too, so obviously those long work trips make a difference. Personally, I think both issues I mentioned are involved with us at this point in our lives. Hasn't always been this way. Neither of us is complaining, we both know it's temporary. (hopefully)

Could stress, work load, age, play a factor in your situation? Or has it always been this way?

To know the background. But yes same age group and while not empty nesters, children are older and not the same handful as once were.

Now take stress and workload out of the equation, there (and sometimes she creates stress where there is not that much) but certainly not bad...... Frankly I have little to complain about (at least not of late) and just felt like venting and musing.....

August 5, 2010

Haven't seen James in awhile. Maybe this will bring him out

Do you know what a Poppin' Johnny is? Well, once you get it runnin', it don't sound pretty, but it goes. Just don't let it stop, ya know

August 5, 2010

Haven't seen James in awhile. Maybe this will bring him out

Do you know what a Poppin' Johnny is? Well, once you get it runnin', it don't sound pretty, but it goes. Just don't let it stop, ya know

But then I also say "slow and steady wins the race in the end" and heck she looks and me and says "we're still together after 25 years, and some days I do like you, so quit complaining":p:laugh:

August 5, 2010

Yep, if you've ever driven a Poppin Johnny, you'll know exactly what slow and steady means. A acre an hour, if you're lucky. Bring lots of water. Your woman will wipe the sweat from your brow and feed you man grub for dinner. Put your feet up. Life is good.

August 5, 2010

TDP, but what is your problem exactly? Because after all your posts this is still not clear to me.

You still have sex with your wife. Then what is it that you want?

August 5, 2010

Want?

I'll be curious to see TDP's perspective but IME, the want is, essentially, the *desire* and *impulsion* to be intimate physically and emotionally. One *feels* it in their partner. Once I lost that, my wife (now stbx) *sensed* it and she knew she didn't have me anymore, at that elemental level. I didn't desire her in that raw and perhaps animalistic way that causes humans to mate and be monogamous. Yes, we can love, be faithful, be loyal and steady companions but there's a feeling that changes. A spouse picks up on it. Depending on their psychology, such can be a minor nuiscance or it can be a deal-breaker.

Sometimes, perhaps not all the time, I'll bet TDP doubts his wife's desire, that elemental desire, to be with him. He has doubts. Cognitively, he knows his wife loves him, is faithful to him and will likely remain by his side, but, still, there's doubt.

For myself, I began to doubt that stbx *felt* the marriage but rather, instead, was *thinking* the marriage. Big, deal-breaking difference for myself, which led to a loss of desire on my part. Over and done. The emotional attachment was gone. Everyone's circumstances and perspectives are necessarily their own. Good on TDP that he's still in it, working and loving.

August 5, 2010

you got me thinking..... But yes at the end of the day it is that raw animalistic desire to be intimate (actually should be frank and say sex)....

Yep I love my spouse and she does me. We actually like each other too most times and enjoy each other's company.....

But as I and many males (and some females too) say, we want sex and want it on what "WE" consider a regular basis, and not to think of it as some chore (even if all the parts work).... For my wife that is X and for me Y.... Now the difference is I think I am reasonable if I say 1-3 X's/wk and she thinks 1-3 X's/mth..... Heck it could be much worse......

Humour me I'm venting.....

Edited August 5, 2010 by Toodamnpragmatic

August 5, 2010

To me, sex is about 'connecting', in a completely focused and exclusive way, with one's life partner. It is expression at an elemental level. To some people, it's a means to an orgasm and a good night's sleep. To others, validation of their attractiveness. To others, a mix of many aspects, the description of which can be endless. Sex can be simple and it can be complex, as varied as the psyche's of the participants. In the end, accepting that no two people are perfectly compatible, if too much bend must occur to satisfy both parties, something breaks. Whether that break cascades upon the rest of the relationship depends upon compatibility in other areas. I think TDP is hitting upon those. Their compatibility, irrespective of their love and commitment, is sufficient that a break in this critical area will not immediately doom their M. Hence, he keeps in play, as does his W, and they march on.

August 5, 2010

Want?

I'll be curious to see TDP's perspective but IME, the want is, essentially, the *desire* and *impulsion* to be intimate physically and emotionally. One *feels* it in their partner. Once I lost that, my wife (now stbx) *sensed* it and she knew she didn't have me anymore, at that elemental level. I didn't desire her in that raw and perhaps animalistic way that causes humans to mate and be monogamous. Yes, we can love, be faithful, be loyal and steady companions but there's a feeling that changes. A spouse picks up on it. Depending on their psychology, such can be a minor nuiscance or it can be a deal-breaker.

Sometimes, perhaps not all the time, I'll bet TDP doubts his wife's desire, that elemental desire, to be with him. He has doubts. Cognitively, he knows his wife loves him, is faithful to him and will likely remain by his side, but, still, there's doubt.

For myself, I began to doubt that stbx *felt* the marriage but rather, instead, was *thinking* the marriage. Big, deal-breaking difference for myself, which led to a loss of desire on my part. Over and done. The emotional attachment was gone. Everyone's circumstances and perspectives are necessarily their own. Good on TDP that he's still in it, working and loving.

I think you hit the nail on the head there...what a great post! I think as this applies to both male and female perspectives, it would be a good starting point to get things back on track. Maybe you could show this to your with TDP or say something along those lines?

August 6, 2010

I think the old phrase that "the heart wants what it wants" applies to other body parts also. For most of us sex drive just is, operating on an instinctive level as Carhill described when we're comitted to a partner. It's too bad that something that one partner has no control over becomes a burden to the other partner. Maybe evolution never intended us to live 50+ years with the same partner ???

Mr. Lucky

August 6, 2010

But as a male again I am left to wonder, why is it still so few and far between (i.e. why can't we have it say 2X's/wk)

Do you want the real answer?

It is because your wife does not perceive sex as an act of love which she wants to share with you.

Sex for her is just a bargaining chip. A way of conditioning you.

She now has you conditioned/brainwashed into believing you should be "happy" or "accepting" of having sex only 2x/month, and apparently grudgingly or less than satisfactory for one or both of you on many occasions.

She has you conditioned to believe your focus during sex should be on whether she has an orgasm or not, rather than wanting to have sex with you because she loves you and it pleases you to have sex.

You want to tell yourself and the world "our marriage is good." It's not. Your sex life is not good. Your wife doesn't care enough about you to give you more sex even though she's not into it. You're extremely defensive about all this yet why post what you posted if you were "happy" and your marriage was "good"?

Remember, it's very easy for women to have sex--when they want to. And that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with sexual desire or pleasure. If a woman withholds sex like your wife does from you, it's because they want to withhold something very important, that they know you are extremely desirous of. Not because they don't feel like having sex.

By this time in your marriage you've both developed some pretty dysfunctional behavior patterns where infrequent sex has become the "status quo" and you're defending it/rationalizing it.

The bottom line is only having sex 2x/month is a horribly bad sex life for two married people of your age with no obvious medical issues, particularly with the marital history you two have.

You can't talk about sexual issues with her without a hot button occurring (e.g. she gets defensive or angry, or possibly you do in reaction to her behavior) because she's not being honest with you about any of this. And you're not being honest with her about the fact that the amount of sex in your marriage is grossly inadequate and you're upset and angry about it. So what if she orgasms 95% of the time? Who ever told you that should be your criterion for determining the adequacy of sexual frequency in your marriage? It has nothing to do with the frequency.

You give other hints when you say things like your w is good at remembering only the bad, not the good, and distorting her memory to reflect that. That's a pure manipulation tactic on her part to put you on the defensive. Either that or she's deliberately dishonest, or perhaps somewhat nutty.

Forget about the frequency issue for a bit.

What makes a woman have to distort reality, to portray sex with her h as bad when it was not (according to you), during a discussion about intimacy issues? How do you expect to ever really improve your relationship when your w can't be truthful about, or can't remember, or can't recognize reality?

Reading a post like yours is very frustrating, because it definitely sounds like you're in an extremely co-dependent relationship and spend much of your time enabling and rationalizing what she's doing, and trying to convince yourself you're satisfied with the situation, when you're obvious not satisfied with it.

Then I suppose you get very defensive if this is pointed out to you.

You have a bad marriage. I'm sorry dude but you do. If you don't face up to that you'll never begin to change things.

We talk about it (sex) but do not want to get to the root of the problem and frankly after all these years, while I'll keep trying, not sure if they'll be a resolution and it's not that I go months at a time without it;).

"We" talk about it, but "she" is the one who does not want to get to the root of the problem. You obviously do, because you'll "keep trying." The "root" of the problem is your wife doesn't love you and doesn't respect you enough to even pretend. She doesn't respect you enough to try to solve something that you perceive to be a problem. She doesn't respect you enough not to blame you and make false claims/memories about how "bad" or "good" the sex is.

If you really want to get to the root of the problem, stop obsessing over how many times she has an orgasm or not. Broaden the conversation. You need to find out why this woman thinks she married you in the first place. Go back to the very beginning of your relationship history with her. Find out what her perceptions of what marriage would be like originally were. Don't ask to have sex with her, ask her what she thinks are reasonable expectations for an average married couple to have. Ask her why she thinks it's wrong to have sex with you, or refuses to, "just because" you have a need for sex. Ask her if she's claiming to be physically incapable of having sex with you on the times she refuses, or if she just doesn't want to. Ask her why she doesn't want to have sex with you. "I don't know" doesn't count as an answer. "I don't feel like it" doesn't count either, we all do plenty of stuff that we don't feel like. Ask her why she expects you to be happy with such infrequent sex and when she tries to tell you sex isn't important tell her it's important to you, and therefore should be important to your wife that you get it.

If she tries to divert the discussion by saying "the sex was bad, that's why I don't have it more frequently," just tell her "tough luck. That means we need a lot more practice. Next excuse?"

All in all it's probably too late, she's in total control of your relationship and you don't want to take any real risks of pissing her off so that you can get some power and equality in this relationship.

Edited August 6, 2010 by GordonDarkfoot

August 6, 2010

Do you want the real answer?

what about simple answer, like a low sex drive? They are compromising and this should be enough. Unfortunately, TDP's one of those husband stuck with a low sex drive wife, but I wish I was having sex as much as he is!

Having a "bad" sex life is not pleasant (and I know), but you also don't want to force your wife into it, because there is no pleasure derived by knowing that she is having sex just to keep you there. So, it's a compromise. There's nothing wrong with it. The alternative is divorce...

August 6, 2010

what about simple answer, like a low sex drive? They are compromising and this should be enough. Unfortunately, TDP's one of those husband stuck with a low sex drive wife, but I wish I was having sex as much as he is!

Having a "bad" sex life is not pleasant (and I know), but you also don't want to force your wife into it, because there is no pleasure derived by knowing that she is having sex just to keep you there. So, it's a compromise. There's nothing wrong with it. The alternative is divorce...

Sorry to hear (intimate) from your post that little has changed. Yes I agree Gordon is wrong..... I was just venting and again asking that perplexing question "If sex is good, why not more often?"

I take it even further as everything is about the "O" in my feeble male mind..... Find an amount that works where the orgasm too works at a high level..... I can say safely as a MALE that I could claim wanting sex 2X/day, but that would result in orgasms that are not as enjoyable and pleasing, so I don't want that. So I ask the same from women.

August 6, 2010

Want?

I'll be curious to see TDP's perspective but IME, the want is, essentially, the *desire* and *impulsion* to be intimate physically and emotionally. One *feels* it in their partner. Once I lost that, my wife (now stbx) *sensed* it and she knew she didn't have me anymore, at that elemental level. I didn't desire her in that raw and perhaps animalistic way that causes humans to mate and be monogamous. Yes, we can love, be faithful, be loyal and steady companions but there's a feeling that changes. A spouse picks up on it. Depending on their psychology, such can be a minor nuiscance or it can be a deal-breaker.

Sometimes, perhaps not all the time, I'll bet TDP doubts his wife's desire, that elemental desire, to be with him. He has doubts. Cognitively, he knows his wife loves him, is faithful to him and will likely remain by his side, but, still, there's doubt.

For myself, I began to doubt that stbx *felt* the marriage but rather, instead, was *thinking* the marriage. Big, deal-breaking difference for myself, which led to a loss of desire on my part. Over and done. The emotional attachment was gone. Everyone's circumstances and perspectives are necessarily their own. Good on TDP that he's still in it, working and loving.

Very good post. I guess you are talking about passion. It's got to be there. It is the reason why you can meet someone who is perfectly compatible with you but still feel that something is missing to have a romantic relationship with him/her.

But to be honest, if the passion is missing I often think it was never there. Because people often get married way too young to be able to know what passion is.

August 6, 2010

Sorry to hear (intimate) from your post that little has changed. Yes I agree Gordon is wrong..... I was just venting and again asking that perplexing question "If sex is good, why not more often?"

I take it even further as everything is about the "O" in my feeble male mind..... Find an amount that works where the orgasm too works at a high level..... I can say safely as a MALE that I could claim wanting sex 2X/day, but that would result in orgasms that are not as enjoyable and pleasing, so I don't want that. So I ask the same from women.

It seems that is what she's telling you: Sex is good, but if it is more frequent, then it is not as enjoyable.

Is that what she meant when she vaguely said it hadn't been as good lately? Frequency was up, and her body didn't have enough time in between to build the tension she needs for the Big O? (yes, she orgasmed--but not all orgasms are equal)

What happens on the days/weeks with no sex? No sexual touch at all? Or are you commonly touching each other like lovers?

August 6, 2010

It seems that is what she's telling you: Sex is good, but if it is more frequent, then it is not as enjoyable.

Is that what she meant when she vaguely said it hadn't been as good lately? Frequency was up, and her body didn't have enough time in between to build the tension she needs for the Big O? (yes, she orgasmed--but not all orgasms are equal)

What happens on the days/weeks with no sex? No sexual touch at all? Or are you commonly touching each other like lovers?

I.e. Let's find an amount that both of us find acceptable. For her maybe it is that little, though I really do think it is all psychological with her and if we had more (not a ridiculous amount) that it would be just as good. This I swear would require significant psychoanalysis..... Not kidding as this is an issue in many aspects of her life.

I really do not want to get in to the numerous topics I've posted that ask a variation of the same question...... I just am lost as this is not something that takes up voluminous time or effort (i.e. 15-45 mins maximum).

Now I should not be overly concerned as it has been very good quality wise of late and quantity is the best in years (I can partially blame the kids for that:p;)).....

And most importantly (knocking on wood), we're both healthy and I look at her with lust in my eyes still:lmao:.....

So really at the end of the day is there a lot to complain about?????

August 6, 2010

Sorry to hear (intimate) from your post that little has changed.

I would not say that little has changed, but that not enough has changed. It's frustrating, but I've come to the conclusion that the problem is not solvable without IC for her and she keeps stalling. I have no other options, because "forcing" her to go to IC would be counter-productive. On the other hand, I'm sure she knows I'm disappointed but she is too selfish and too wrapped-up in herself to be able to change without external inputs. So, as usual, I'm stuck. But I'm not complaining to her or anybody. I know I have the choice to leave.

August 6, 2010

But to be honest, if the passion is missing I often think it was never there. Because people often get married way too young to be able to know what passion is.

Interesting, and again IMO goes to the psychology of the individuals. Each of us is different in *how* the process works. In my case, passion (*desire*) flows from intimacy. It's like a four-lane highway, each lane running parallel. When there's a crash blocking on of the lanes, traffic gets backed up. Frustration results. Everything slows down.

When we were in MC, and had weeks where we were making progress (IMO), I began to have spurts of the same *desire* which was customary throughout our M. We just never developed enough intimacy for me to jump-start the *desire* again.

BTW, in our case, we were 41 when we married. Stbx had been married twice before. I presume, even if I was 'ignorant', not having been married before, she knew what she was doing and had learned from her prior marriages, although I really didn't think of it in those terms at the time. Marriage taught me a lot, primarily about the differences between viewing dynamics as right vs wrong as opposed to compatible and incompatible. Prior, black and white, right and wrong thinking prevailed, with little real hard work on acceptance. After, more focus on compatibility (or not) with acceptance of that dynamic. So, if I were in TDP's dynamic, I would view our sexual dynamic as incompatible, accept that incompatibility, and decide if the marriage in totality was valuable enough to myself to remain. This presumes all the talking and bending had already been done, and it appears it has in his case. Hope it works out for him and his wife.

August 6, 2010

Double post due to database problems. Sorry!

Edited August 6, 2010 by carhill

August 6, 2010

So, if I were in TDP's dynamic, I would view our sexual dynamic as incompatible, accept that incompatibility, and decide if the marriage in totality was valuable enough to myself to remain. This presumes all the talking and bending had already been done, and it appears it has in his case. Hope it works out for him and his wife.

Same position here. My wife even said we are sexually incompatible. The thing is: we are not incompatible. We are very much compatible. Always been. It's just that sex has taken a different - negative - meaning for her, for various reasons. I've fixed my behaviour (the pestering and the pressure), but she refuses to fix hers. I'm now deciding if the marriage really is worth enough for me to stay...

August 6, 2010

Same position here. My wife even said we are sexually incompatible. The thing is: we are not incompatible. We are very much compatible. Always been. It's just that sex has taken a different - negative - meaning for her, for various reasons. I've fixed my behaviour (the pestering and the pressure), but she refuses to fix hers. I'm now deciding if the marriage really is worth enough for me to stay...

Giotto, I often think that you should read this book "No more Mr Nice Guy" by Robert Glover. It has some interesting ideas.

There is also a forum www.nomoremrniceguy.com

Might have some ideas for you.

August 6, 2010

So really at the end of the day is there a lot to complain about?????

TDP, it's up to you to answer this question.

I still don't get very well what this is about. You start topics about it again and again but at the same time you say that it is not too bad. Then why do you keep complaining?

What would it take for you to be 200% happy with your sex life? Quantity and quality wise?

August 6, 2010

Giotto, I often think that you should read this book "No more Mr Nice Guy" by Robert Glover. It has some interesting ideas.
There is also a forum www.nomoremrniceguy.com
Might have some ideas for you.

Thanks, WITP, I'll have a look. But I do think it's too late for us, because I'm now scared that if I get too involved again I will get hurt (again). So, I'm not really allowing any intimacy to come back, at least until she "fixes" herself. It's like a reflex for me, like Pavlov's dog...

As far as TDP is concerned, I just believe it's a case of mismatched sex drive. The gap is not huge, but obviously it's big enough for him. The correlation orgasm>wanting more sex is not automatic. My wife always orgasms, but she told me some time ago that she's had sex even when she didn't feel like (not a great thing to hear). She's got to be in the right place mentally, whilst I can have sex almost at will... It's a bit of a mystery, for sure, and it's bothering him... he's probably a walking erection, like me...

Edited August 6, 2010 by giotto

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