Reforming nice guy - wife hates it

[InnerGrowth]

I learned in childhood to be a peacemaker. I brought this into my marriage and spend the first several years of our marriage playing that role. I always gave in, always apologized, always was the one to try and smooth things over. Several years later I got sick and angry of playing the role and started according to my new feelings. That lasted a few months and I got tired of being a mean spirited angry person so backed down. It was not who I wanted to be. Fast forward a few more years. My wife went away for school for a couple years. This helped me grow out of the nice guy role by my becoming fully responsible for our two kids while she was away. We then spent a year volunteering overseas as a family and have been back in the US for a year now. I have been working on becoming a centered, whole man for several years now. Working at being compassionate, but at times firm. Aware of what I want, but often willing to go along with others. Becoming more aware of who I am and trying to understand better those around me as well. I have read secular and Christian men's books like Iron John, He, Healing the Masculine Soul and have found and continue to find inspiration and healing in the pages. I am a compassionate guy and enjoy being so. I often cry during movies and am concerned about the plight of less fortunate. I am also learning to be harsh and hardened when needed, like when disciplining subcontractors who work under me and renters who have fallen behind on rent. I am trying to be balanced, but of course balance takes practice and role models who seem to be so few and far between.

 

Problem is: I don't think my wife likes who I am and we continually fight. It seems clear to me that she often doesn't want to know what I am thinking or feeling, but would be happier shaming me into agreeing with her or being more sensitive to her needs regardless of the consequences to me. Sex? between 1 and 2x/mo when things are good, but none for the last 2 months (part of this due to broken collar bone)

 

Our most recent run in started while on vacation 3 weeks ago. She was upset about the hotel shuttle service leaving a couple minutes early, for which we missed it. She expressed her anger to the driver when he got back. He stated "I know you and I'm not going to take it." My wife got further indignant at this black man and complained to me that he never met her so he is lying, etc. She was obviously angry and had some reason to be, so I mainly just listened. (Though it seemed to me that she picked the fight and was now upset that he didn't back down, but now she was stuck with the fight. Besides, the driver could have been talking about an archetype that he knew, not her personally in which case he stated the truth. I also think it was insensitive to tell a black service worker in an angry sounding voice that their service sucks.)

 

A couple minutes still talking about the driver, and trying to bring in her view of what's wrong with the nation, she stated that it was men being in charge that were the problem. She did not qualify it with anything like "the overreaching male bastards" or "powermongering men", but it was more like men are the problem in the world. My son was there listening and I had enough. I first stated that I could not agree with her, and then I felt my anger a bit more and don't remember exactly what I said, but it was something similar to repeating the same but in an angrier tone.

 

She became hurt and angry and refused to discuss what just happened. A little later in the day she brought it up, but didn't like the direction the discussion was going so refused to talk further. Again last night, 3 weeks later, she did not bring up the same discussion again, but the vacation in general. After not being happy with how the discussion was going, she refused to talk further. The couple times I indicated desire to talk, she was not interested in talking. I am left with her in control of when we discuss this further and with the feeling that she will continue to stop the conversation till she gets what she wants from me.

 

The way this all played out seems all too familiar to me. The only difference is years ago I would have apologized profusely, admitted I was wrong (we're always at least a little bit in error) and things would have moved on, though I would have felt wronged and cheated out of valor.

 

How should I proceed? I am driven back into self help books and recently ordered self help books I haven't yet read like Fire in the Belly and King Warrior, Magician Lover. I keep thinking if I learn more about myself and being a man the more at peace I'll be with my life even if my marriage does not quickly improve or God forbid never does. If there were something I could honestly do to help our marriage, I would love to know. Admitting my wrong doing where I feel none doesn't seem healthy or right. I did happen to see her reading something on the Internet the other day about changing your feelings and thoughts in situations out of your control. Perhaps it is about our relationship. She is very smart. Continuing my relationship with her is important to me.

 

Again, any thoughts on how to handle myself? Are there things I can do to become more sensitive to her feelings without denying mine? Are there such books, teachings, etc? If I had a higher EQ perhaps I could navigate these waters better? I am not interested in being right and alone, but also no longer willing to auto-subjugate my feelings and interests to hers. Please help me focus on where and how I can grow or just weigh in on the above.

[Stung]

I think it's great that you're trying to recover your backbone and get to a place where you feel whole; I'm not familiar with the books you've been reading, I hope they're truly helpful and you're reviewing them with an open mind but a critical eye rather than blindly following every little thing.

 

Have you considered marriage counseling? A good, well-trained counselor can help you communicate more openly with your wife and while maintaining your personal equilibrium. Tell the counselor about your concerns with your inability to draw healthy emotional boundaries with your wife and with others. If you don't feel they're able to help you keep a healthy balance with your wife, switch counselors.

 

I'm sure there are plenty of books on this subject as well, although I can't personally recommend any good ones. Maybe someone else can, but I still think that trained guidance through these waters could be more helpful to your marriage at this critical point than floundering your way through a booklist. In addition, you might want to consider some individual counseling for yourself to supplement all the reading you've been doing.

 

By the way, I'm pretty sure that if someone in the service industry, or really any other industry, sucks at their job to the point where it's a personal inconvenience to you, it's okay to critically review their work but not really okay to be volubly rude to them about it--whether they are black or white or brown or whatever. If they suck at it to the point where it's a hazard to you, ask to speak to their manager.

[2sure]

When people are on vacation paying big bucks in resort areas whose economies depend on tourist dollars.....they expect good service.

Your wife didnt get it, a day of travel was changed. Tourists get angry sometimes with the confusion of travel in new places. So she said something. She wasnt racist in what you describe. It is more racist to net say something just because of a person's ethnic background. ??

 

Anyway, these things happen. She didnt mutiny the shuttle. She just had a short exchange with the driver.

 

Why on earth keep bringing it up? Why on earth do you still care about it? No wonder she isnt open to discussing it further..she made a mistake perhaps...it isnt a subject or incident worth harping over.

 

I appreciate a sensitive man, I dont like anyone to be a push over or walked on but ....sometimes talking about how You Feeel after every slight real or imagined...is not a good thing either.

[InnerGrowth]

Have you considered marriage counseling? A good, well-trained counselor can help you communicate more openly with your wife and while maintaining your personal equilibrium.

 

In addition, you might want to consider some individual counseling for yourself to supplement all the reading you've been doing.

 

I have been considering going back for more counseling. I have used personal and marriage counselors at various times throughout our relationship. The last time I went to a counselor was a few years ago. I began working on some personal issues and wanted to work on marriage communication more. I did what I could on my own as my wife was unwilling at the time to see a counselor together, which was good for my personal growth, but not as helpful as I would want for our marriage communication. The personal reading has helped me out at least as much as the counseling and I do weigh what I read. I am careful not to just read stuff that affirms what I feel, but try to read material that stretches me to see things from new perspectives. Still, I am considering going back or seeking out a new counselor.

[Holding-On]

2sure I think you make good points but I think what keeps getting brought up is her diatribe about "men being the problem with the world" in front of (or at) her son and husband.

 

If it was sexes reversed: mother sitting there with her daughter hearing her angry spouse talk about how women are what's wrong with the world and she defended her sex (mostly for her daughter's sake), I'm sure you can see how that would be.

Or that is how I read it anyway.

 

Look. OP, it is great that you are trying to improve yourself. It is not however strange that your wife is not likely to be thrilled. She married you as you were so clearly she liked you as you were. She wanted to and did marry that person.

 

Imagine that you had married a very feminine woman (and this femininity was well liked by you and part of why you married her). She starts off soft spoken, has long well-groomed tresses, wears flowery/flattering dresses, brings you your coffee, rarely argues with you. She then goes on what she considers a self-improvement program. Starts growing and deprogramming herself to have more backbone and do what she wants. Now she has short grey hair, doesn't shave, wears boys jeans and rugby shirts, demands you bring her coffee and argues all the time. Sorta see how from your perspective that wouldn't be so great? Well it is the same for your wife. You may be doing the right thing in your spiritual world view but have some empathy for her. She likely married you because you were so accomodating. You are flipping her life around on her.

 

I'd recommend you also read "The Dance of Anger". It is about changing your position in a relationship and how the other parties, being comfortable with the way things are, are going to take time to respond to your changes.

[InnerGrowth]

When people are on vacation paying big bucks in resort areas whose economies depend on tourist dollars.....they expect good service.

Your wife didnt get it, a day of travel was changed. Tourists get angry sometimes with the confusion of travel in new places. So she said something. She wasnt racist in what you describe. It is more racist to net say something just because of a person's ethnic background. ??

 

Anyway, these things happen. She didnt mutiny the shuttle. She just had a short exchange with the driver.

 

Why on earth keep bringing it up? Why on earth do you still care about it? No wonder she isnt open to discussing it further..she made a mistake perhaps...it isnt a subject or incident worth harping over.

 

I appreciate a sensitive man, I dont like anyone to be a push over or walked on but ....sometimes talking about how You Feeel after every slight real or imagined...is not a good thing either.

 

A few more facts: Our travel day was not changed, just delayed 20 minutes. I don't think she was being racist as she is a minority herself. I was not happy but OK with her being forcefully insistent with the driver.

 

What got me was the statement about MEN being inherently evil and the whole problem with the world and our society -- without qualifiers and in front of our son. (I would like to raise our children without the core belief that men are inherently evil and the reason the whole world is messed up. I don't think that is asking too much.) I would like to discuss this with her sometime, but am content to wait for an opportune time. What I don't appreciate is her spending weeks angry and distant without interest in discussing it. I am not one to constantly rehash how I feel with her. She is setting the tone and timing of our relationship right now. Honestly to me it feels like one more way for her to wrestle control of me and the relationship. she doesn't like who I am or what I am doing, so she punishes me with a mood for several weeks. Maybe when she comes back to me I'll be properly repentant and falling all over her for forgiveness. Or maybe she is just feeling very hurt herself for reasons I am not understanding and hasn't yet mustered the energy to tackle the issue. I have to admit, I am often confounded by how my wife thinks and what her needs are. IDK

[InnerGrowth]

Holding-On: Thanks for your understanding regarding my anger at men as a whole being slandered.

 

Thanks also for the book recommendation. Sounds helpful. I just checked and my Library does have it checked in, so I should be able to start reading it by the weekend.

 

Thanks also for your insight on how my changes are affecting her. It is a great reminder. I have heard it said that some of us get married because our spouses are attracted to our brokenness and when we get better, that creates problems. Perhaps this is a significant factor. I am trying very hard to be balanced, believe me it is hard. In no way have I adopted more traditional roles or required her to do so, though I don't think you suggest it by your example. I HAVE started respecting myself more and standing up for my feelings and sometimes my opinions more. I have uncovered inner anger that can at times be intense and I am trying to learn to personally embrace it and learn from it without wildly lashing out at others around me.

[Stung]

I have a son and I absolutely would not want anybody going on and on about males being awful in front of him, of course. I meant to address that earlier but it got a bit lost in your concerns over the race of the driver, and perhaps that derailed your conversation with your wife as well. as your focus on the issue seems a little unclear.

 

Is she generally angry with men, or was this tirade unusual? Does she have deep issues with men that are surfacing as you regain your independence, perhaps? It's hard to gauge this situation from a post on a message board; she could have just been spouting off a bit rhetorically, although she should have been more circumspect around your son. She also could have real deep-seated issues with men, which could be what led her to marry a male with such submissive/co-dependent tendencies. If that's the case I have some doubts that you are going to be able to work out this marriage to everyone's satisfaction without longterm professional counseling.

[GordonDarkfoot]

Am I reading your post correctly? Your wife actually left the family for a couple of years to go to school? As in, went to some other geographical location where she didn't live with you or the kids for two years????

 

Seriously, what kind of a wife and mother leaves her h and kids for two years?

 

If she's constantly angry and constantly fighting then you have a lot more serious problems in your marriage then her getting into arguments with the bus driver.

 

You say your wife doesn't like who you are. Also not good. But that doesn't mean you should change who you are.

 

It sounds to me like she's already emotionally left the marriage and is either completely detached from you or is in the process of doing so. That doesn't mean she's going to file for divorce, not yet anyway, because of the kids and perhaps religious considerations.

 

That kind of disrespect for a husband that your wife is displaying frequently indicates another man is in the picture somehow. Maybe some guy she met while away from the family at school? It doesn't have to be a physical affair, but nowadays it's pretty easy for people to maintain a cyber or internet affair which can be pretty destructive to a marriage.

 

Basically I hate to sound like a total pessimist but I think your wife is long gone from your marriage, nothing you do to change yourself is really going to make a difference.

 

Good luck.

 

Edit: Oh yeah the zero sex is a huge red flag that she's having it with someone else. Rereading your post it looks like you've been married ten or fifteen years and your wife sounds like she's busy rewriting the marital history and has all the classic signs of a future "walk away" spouse.

Edited August 6, 2010 by GordonDarkfoot

[sally4sara]

Am I reading your post correctly? Your wife actually left the family for a couple of years to go to school? As in, went to some other geographical location where she didn't live with you or the kids for two years????

 

Seriously, what kind of a wife and mother leaves her h and kids for two years?

 

If she's constantly angry and constantly fighting then you have a lot more serious problems in your marriage then her getting into arguments with the bus driver.

 

You say your wife doesn't like who you are. Also not good. But that doesn't mean you should change who you are.

 

It sounds to me like she's already emotionally left the marriage and is either completely detached from you or is in the process of doing so. That doesn't mean she's going to file for divorce, not yet anyway, because of the kids and perhaps religious considerations.

 

That kind of disrespect for a husband that your wife is displaying frequently indicates another man is in the picture somehow. Maybe some guy she met while away from the family at school? It doesn't have to be a physical affair, but nowadays it's pretty easy for people to maintain a cyber or internet affair which can be pretty destructive to a marriage.

 

Basically I hate to sound like a total pessimist but I think your wife is long gone from your marriage, nothing you do to change yourself is really going to make a difference.

 

Good luck.

 

Edit: Oh yeah the zero sex is a huge red flag that she's having it with someone else. Rereading your post it looks like you've been married ten or fifteen years and your wife sounds like she's busy rewriting the marital history and has all the classic signs of a future "walk away" spouse.

 

I would think it of the same mentality as men who go in the armed services or really ANYONE who goes off to work a job for a period of time to the BETTERMENT of their family's holdings. If it were the OP doing it, I suspect you'd view it differently.

 

I think its awesome that the OP was able to hold things down at home while she went to school. It indicates that if his wife were to leave - he wouldn't crumble under the weight of her absence or qualify to have the kids automatically go with her.

[InnerGrowth]

Is she generally angry with men, or was this tirade unusual? Does she have deep issues with men that are surfacing as you regain your independence, perhaps? It's hard to gauge this situation from a post on a message board; she could have just been spouting off a bit rhetorically, although she should have been more circumspect around your son. She also could have real deep-seated issues with men, which could be what led her to marry a male with such submissive/co-dependent tendencies. If that's the case I have some doubts that you are going to be able to work out this marriage to everyone's satisfaction without longterm professional counseling.

 

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. She does have issues with men. In the little discussion we did have she said she now realizes she will have to bring them up with others and not talk about them with me. (Which is probably healthy provided she finds healthy individuals to do this with, which would include most of her friends.) I am sure she married me in part because of my submissiveness and co-dependent behavior. I am not sure she sees it that way at this point, but I hope we get there. She grew up in a single family home where her mother physically abused her. Her and her mother constantly clashed and except for distance and some learned restraint would still do so today. She sees herself as very different from her mother and in some ways it is true. In other ways she is quite similar, which is why they clashed so badly. She is unable to admit that in some ways she is similar to her mother and the last time I made some comparison, the conversation ended badly and she was angry with me for a couple weeks or more. As I stated, these displays of being angry and refusing to talk to me/not wanting any touch/not wanting me to tell her I love her/ shutting herself away are not too uncommon. The pattern is that she slowly moves out of this mood/funk and through small talk we eventually get a semblance of relationship back. Of course I see these as very damaging to our relationship, but have been unable to discuss this with her. Anything I say which is seen as criticism is not well received. I think she does have anger at men, and to some extent I get that, but I also think she has anger at the world in general.

 

Her focus in our relationship is often my faults, which I do have, and from that stance she is very slow to change or admit any fault. I honestly don't remember the last time she told me she was sorry for how she treated me, which is her valid complaint about her mom. Having said all that... to give more background -- I don't want this thread to turn into a what's wrong with W thread, but would rather focus on how I can become stronger, what I can do to intervene as appropriate, how I can live my life to the fullest given where I am at right now.

[InnerGrowth]

I would think it of the same mentality as men who go in the armed services or really ANYONE who goes off to work a job for a period of time to the BETTERMENT of their family's holdings. If it were the OP doing it, I suspect you'd view it differently.

 

I think its awesome that the OP was able to hold things down at home while she went to school. It indicates that if his wife were to leave - he wouldn't crumble under the weight of her absence or qualify to have the kids automatically go with her.

 

Sally & Darkfoot:

The 2 year separation was difficult for us as a couple and a family, but I was behind her and encouraged her. We saw her nearly every other weekend and had a family phone plan so talked almost daily.

 

We have been married well over 15 years. I don't have good reason to believe she is having an affair, emotional or otherwise, though perhaps she did during schooling. She had a classmate who the school linked up with her and a couple others to study/practice together. He lent her CDs, which she regularly listened to. She spent some late nights over at his house, even spending the night "to study". This scared the h*** out of me and maybe for good reason. After a few months, her attitude toward him changed from he is a good guy and study partner, to he is a conceited and harsh person. I figured if there was an affair, she learned her lesson and moved on. I have not talked to her about my fears. Would that be wise? How would one even go about it?

 

Regarding whether she is already emotionally gone from the marriage and is a future "walk away" spouse: There is a dark place in my soul that nurtures and prepares for that possibility. I give that place limited space right now. I still hope our marriage can thrive after working through our difficulties. For now, I intend to do my part.

 

As I mentioned, the 2 years proved to be a good for personal growth. Given my background, I learned a lot of independence and self discovery that may not have been possible without the separation. Although this may cause distress in our marriage this personal journey is long overdue and may be the thing which in the end helps save our marriage.

[sally4sara]

Sally & Darkfoot:

The 2 year separation was difficult for us as a couple and a family, but I was behind her and encouraged her. We saw her nearly every other weekend and had a family phone plan so talked almost daily.

 

We have been married well over 15 years. I don't have good reason to believe she is having an affair, emotional or otherwise, though perhaps she did during schooling. She had a classmate who the school linked up with her and a couple others to study/practice together. He lent her CDs, which she regularly listened to. She spent some late nights over at his house, even spending the night "to study". This scared the h*** out of me and maybe for good reason. After a few months, her attitude toward him changed from he is a good guy and study partner, to he is a conceited and harsh person. I figured if there was an affair, she learned her lesson and moved on. I have not talked to her about my fears. Would that be wise? How would one even go about it?

 

Regarding whether she is already emotionally gone from the marriage and is a future "walk away" spouse: There is a dark place in my soul that nurtures and prepares for that possibility. I give that place limited space right now. I still hope our marriage can thrive after working through our difficulties. For now, I intend to do my part.

 

As I mentioned, the 2 years proved to be a good for personal growth. Given my background, I learned a lot of independence and self discovery that may not have been possible without the separation. Although this may cause distress in our marriage this personal journey is long overdue and may be the thing which in the end helps save our marriage.

 

You speak much about your struggles to find your back bone in your marriage and be your own man. Without seeing the dynamic in person, none of us can really know if you're finding a healthy center or over doing it.

One thing is for certain; you are a person capable of handling life with or without her. That should give you real confidence and it is a confidence you've earned. If you feel strongly about a one side of any conflict - you know you're justified in speaking your mind. Don't forget that, but don't forget as well that no one will always see eye to eye on everything.

Unless your wife is prone to making these comments about men (and in front of your son), it might be best, having said your piece and she hers, to let it go.

If she does say these things often, it might indicate she is well aware you have reason to believe in yourself and she is feeling the rub of it.

 

I have no idea if your wife was having an affair with the guy you mentioned. It could be. It could also be that he made a move and she was appalled that he thought she'd jump at the offer. Ask her about it if you want to know - just make sure you want to know even if it were a worst case answer.

[You Go Girl]

I highly doubt your W is having an affair. She doesn't care for deep intimacy= she doesn't care much for sex.

Each one of us is on our own blind struggling path to understand psychology, life, frustration, you name it.

Simply realize that your W at times (like the overgeneralization about men comment) has a lot to learn. Likewise, she knows things that you have yet to learn. Ditto for every person you know or pass on the street. Realize that when you see her err, you too err sometimes and she sees it, so keep yourself humble.

 

As for the sex, you have to work on the emotional intimacy. This could be a long long road if your W is uptight as she seems.

Focus on the good though, or if you focus on the flaws you will send the relationship spiraling into the abyss.

[carhill]

OP, here's my short take:

 

Own your perspective. Life is an ever changing process. You've changed, presumably for the betterment of yourself and your life. Celebrate that.

 

Expect push back. *Any* time a person exerts their boundaries, there is going to be push back from others who are used to nothing being where the new boundaries now are. Anger is a common response. This is how wars are started Get used to it. Accept it. It resides within your wife. She owns her own feelings. You are not responsible for them.

 

Set a positive example for your son. Show him the man you envision him to be. Look in his eyes. You're his role model. You'll never know the enormous impact you'll make on his life, long after you're gone. What boundaries do you want him to have?

 

Call a MC on Monday. Since your wife was abused and has anger problems with men in general (you say), engage a psychologist who can refer her (and/or you) out as appropriate for IC. Find a *neutral* place to work through this.

 

If she refuses, or, with meaningful therapy you find yourselves to be fundamentally incompatible, divorce her and co-parent your children in a healthy way. It's important to your daughter also to have positive male role models so she can identify and value who a healthy man is when she grows up.

 

Keep us posted on your progress. Welcome to LS

 

PS: I'm at the other end of that path (reforming 'nice' guy) and can tell you it's a really healthy and peaceful place to be. Surround yourself with people who value and love who you are today. Good luck.

Edited August 8, 2010 by carhill

[Joe10]

Divorce her. She is a fairly typical wife, a tyrannic personality. It's the result of her upbringing. She probably grew up doing what she's been told and telling people what they want to hear, and once she married, she quickly turned into a bully, ruling the home with an iron fist. There is nothing you can do about it.

[nddb]

MC and hope she sees the light.

 

Or divorce. Life is too short to live like that.