Revenge? Who Has the right?

[Mimolicious]

OW/OM often ends up devastated and hurt more than any time before by the way things are during and after A. It's only natural to wish the person who caused it would also feel pain. It is upsetting to think that the one who plunged the OW/OM's life into turmoil is going to sail away into the sunset with the W/H. The BS becomes the target of these fantasies by proxy.

 

There's nothing wrong with OW/OM feeling this way. People cannot be blamed and judged by the way they feel. Only by their actions. So as long as these thought remain just that, there is no issue here.

 

 

And I guess to be politically correct, the subjects on your post can always be change depending on the situation. That would just be fair, right?

 

Because you know... BS's often end up devastated and hurt more than anytime before after spending years married to someone, raising a family and all the yadda, yadda, then their H/W sails away into the sunset with OW/OM. People (ANYONE) is entitled to feel however the hell they want! Does that mean that they are in their due rights? No. Does that mean that they are wrong? No. Yes, people should be judge on their actions. Glad that we can all agree on that.

 

I'm just saying...

[silktricks]

I know a few OW who wouldn't take MM back. Even if he promised the world and an entire Tiffany store topped with signed divorce papers. Contrary to popular opinion, they are not bitter either. But that's another thread, I think.

 

 

Too true... (which is why I said often as opposed to always... )

[wheelwright]

As a fMOW, I have found this thread one of the most chastening I have read.

 

I think that is because all the negative feelings I have harboured towards my xAP and his BW are clearly all about ME, and fail to recognise how they are feeling. How my H is feeling. That's why I don't let these negative feelings run riot. I suppose the same is happening when BSs refuse to let negative feelings about OW/OM conquer them.

 

Recently, I have been thinking a lot about myself, my hurt, how I was wronged by H, xMOM, his BW. And not remembering to bring into focus my own wrongdoing. I am remembering this very well as I read here today.

 

As it has been a hot topic on this thread, I would like to explain why I have negative (though not vengeful) feelings about xMOM's W.

 

1. She told me (while drunk) pre-A that she did not, and never had loved her H. She said it had been a question of right place right time. She recounted a number of instances of his behaviour which she had found unacceptable during the M. This was one of only two conversations I ever had with her.

 

I found what she said utterly shocking, but as I had already developed feelings for her H, it was exactly what I wanted to hear.

 

I think my case is peculiar in that I heard this from her own lips, but I suspect many OW/OM have just as much faith in similar beliefs about the lack of love in BS. I in fact clung to my belief for months after DDay, to the extent that I drove myself mad with wondering why she was reconciling with this man she 'didn't love'.

 

Then in a confrontation 1 year after DDay with me she said she had never said this, and that she had always loved him. (Apparently it's something others also heard her say, so I am confident in my own memories. I wonder why she is selective?). I feel very stupid and naive about all this, and the A would certainly not have happened if she had not said this to me. I feel I was kind of gaslighted? I have negative thoughts about her in relation to this, but I do not really feel I am entitled to them! Mostly, I feel dumb. Sometimes I laugh at myself, rather than feeling negative towards her.

 

2. The second set of negative thoughts I have about her I have even less justification for. Because I know it may have no basis in reality. But I can't help feeling she was instrumental in xMOM not having a closure conversation with me post-DDay. He certainly intended to do this as we discussed it by phone before he stopped all contact. I know I may be wrong, but I feel this was her revenge on me. And I also see she was entitled to it, whereas I am not entitled to my negative feelings, though I definately have to admit I have them. And really, I fully see my chagrin should be directed at my AP in this respect.

 

3. The third part comes from what she said to me in the confrontation, which was 'I don't care how f***ed up you are, just p**s off and leave us alone'. While I sympathise with her sentiments, I feel she could have been kinder to me, someone else who has been hurt, albeit with more responsibility. But I can't really justify this either, as I have no idea if xMOM has lied about me and the A, so that her utter lack of compassion may be fully understandable should I be fully aware of her mind set.

 

I know he lied and minimised in his initial DDay revelation. I do not know if he quickly came clean, painted me an evil whore, or just stuck to his story.

 

Anyway, the picture as I have it is that xMOM tells her he never loved me (perhaps true, though not what he told me at the time, or even after 10 months NC), and that she tells him she always loved him (also not what she told me). When I'm not laughing at myself, or tryingto feel indifferent, this particular set of lies tortures me and makes me angry towards them. This is not helped by me knowing full well I am not entitled to my anger after my poor behaviour!

[Ellin]

And I guess to be politically correct, the subjects on your post can always be change depending on the situation. That would just be fair, right?

 

Because you know... BS's often end up devastated and hurt more than anytime before after spending years married to someone, raising a family and all the yadda, yadda, then their H/W sails away into the sunset with OW/OM. People (ANYONE) is entitled to feel however the hell they want! Does that mean that they are in their due rights? No. Does that mean that they are wrong? No. Yes, people should be judge on their actions. Glad that we can all agree on that.

 

I'm just saying...

I never said that thinking of revenge for being hurt is only reserved for a OW/OM..

[Spark1111]

OW/OM often ends up devastated and hurt more than any time before by the way things are during and after A. It's only natural to wish the person who caused it would also feel pain. It is upsetting to think that the one who plunged the OW/OM's life into turmoil is going to sail away into the sunset with the W/H. The BS becomes the target of these fantasies by proxy.

 

There's nothing wrong with OW/OM feeling this way. People cannot be blamed and judged by the way they feel. Only by their actions. So as long as these thought remain just that, there is no issue here.

 

Interesting.....because as we cried together, raged together, (or rather, I at him) went to counseling, tried to console devasted children, lost many,many friends, saw the pain felt by our siblings, dealt with his bone-crushing guilt, my mind-blowing rage....I/We believed that for her, there were no repurcussions, no consequences other than the loss of the relationship.

 

She wasn't "outed" anywhere by anyone. She did not lose friends. Her family didn't know. Her child was unaffected. Her secrets were still her secrets.

 

So we didn't sail off into any sunset by any means. Not for a very long time.

[Spark1111]

As a fMOW, I have found this thread one of the most chastening I have read.

 

I think that is because all the negative feelings I have harboured towards my xAP and his BW are clearly all about ME, and fail to recognise how they are feeling. How my H is feeling. That's why I don't let these negative feelings run riot. I suppose the same is happening when BSs refuse to let negative feelings about OW/OM conquer them.

 

Recently, I have been thinking a lot about myself, my hurt, how I was wronged by H, xMOM, his BW. And not remembering to bring into focus my own wrongdoing. I am remembering this very well as I read here today.

 

As it has been a hot topic on this thread, I would like to explain why I have negative (though not vengeful) feelings about xMOM's W.

 

1. She told me (while drunk) pre-A that she did not, and never had loved her H. She said it had been a question of right place right time. She recounted a number of instances of his behaviour which she had found unacceptable during the M. This was one of only two conversations I ever had with her.

 

I found what she said utterly shocking, but as I had already developed feelings for her H, it was exactly what I wanted to hear.

 

It is shocking. Too bad, it validated your decision to enter the affair.

 

I think my case is peculiar in that I heard this from her own lips, but I suspect many OW/OM have just as much faith in similar beliefs about the lack of love in BS. I in fact clung to my belief for months after DDay, to the extent that I drove myself mad with wondering why she was reconciling with this man she 'didn't love'.

 

Then in a confrontation 1 year after DDay with me she said she had never said this, and that she had always loved him. (Apparently it's something others also heard her say, so I am confident in my own memories. I wonder why she is selective?). I feel very stupid and naive about all this, and the A would certainly not have happened if she had not said this to me. I feel I was kind of gaslighted? I have negative thoughts about her in relation to this, but I do not really feel I am entitled to them! Mostly, I feel dumb. Sometimes I laugh at myself, rather than feeling negative towards her.

 

2. The second set of negative thoughts I have about her I have even less justification for. Because I know it may have no basis in reality. But I can't help feeling she was instrumental in xMOM not having a closure conversation with me post-DDay. He certainly intended to do this as we discussed it by phone before he stopped all contact. I know I may be wrong, but I feel this was her revenge on me. And I also see she was entitled to it, whereas I am not entitled to my negative feelings, though I definately have to admit I have them. And really, I fully see my chagrin should be directed at my AP in this respect.

 

3. The third part comes from what she said to me in the confrontation, which was 'I don't care how f***ed up you are, just p**s off and leave us alone'. While I sympathise with her sentiments, I feel she could have been kinder to me, someone else who has been hurt, albeit with more responsibility. But I can't really justify this either, as I have no idea if xMOM has lied about me and the A, so that her utter lack of compassion may be fully understandable should I be fully aware of her mind set.

 

I know he lied and minimised in his initial DDay revelation. I do not know if he quickly came clean, painted me an evil whore, or just stuck to his story.

 

Anyway, the picture as I have it is that xMOM tells her he never loved me (perhaps true, though not what he told me at the time, or even after 10 months NC), and that she tells him she always loved him (also not what she told me). When I'm not laughing at myself, or tryingto feel indifferent, this particular set of lies tortures me and makes me angry towards them. This is not helped by me knowing full well I am not entitled to my anger after my poor behaviour!

 

I think you are entitled to your anger in that a person scorned is a person scorned.

 

I am sorry that they both circled wagons and re-wrote the marital history. That is a double-whammy, especially in denying her conversation with you.

 

And then he re-wrote the affair history with her, you suspect.

 

Unfortunately, this is unkind, but may be somewhat normal in BOTH joining forces to meet the common goal of keeping the interloper out of the marriage. Unfair too. It seems desperate to me on some level. You have become the common enemy.

 

This is not very enlightened, introspective on their part or truly healing, IMHO.

 

But it is what it is, I do not blame you for being angry. Angry with no place to go with it.

[Ellin]

Interesting.....because as we cried together, raged together, (or rather, I at him) went to counseling, tried to console devasted children, lost many,many friends, saw the pain felt by our siblings, dealt with his bone-crushing guilt, my mind-blowing rage....I/We believed that for her, there were no repurcussions, no consequences other than the loss of the relationship.

 

She wasn't "outed" anywhere by anyone. She did not lose friends. Her family didn't know. Her child was unaffected. Her secrets were still her secrets.

 

So we didn't sail off into any sunset by any means. Not for a very long time.

It's interesting to know your point of view, but due to the specific dynamics of an A, the end of it might be an extremely painful event for OW/OM, much worse that a loss of "ordinary" relationship (which is bad enough, anyway).

[Ellin]

As a fMOW, I have found this thread one of the most chastening I have read.

 

I think that is because all the negative feelings I have harboured towards my xAP and his BW are clearly all about ME, and fail to recognise how they are feeling. How my H is feeling. That's why I don't let these negative feelings run riot. I suppose the same is happening when BSs refuse to let negative feelings about OW/OM conquer them.

 

Recently, I have been thinking a lot about myself, my hurt, how I was wronged by H, xMOM, his BW. And not remembering to bring into focus my own wrongdoing. I am remembering this very well as I read here today.

 

As it has been a hot topic on this thread, I would like to explain why I have negative (though not vengeful) feelings about xMOM's W.

 

1. She told me (while drunk) pre-A that she did not, and never had loved her H. She said it had been a question of right place right time. She recounted a number of instances of his behaviour which she had found unacceptable during the M. This was one of only two conversations I ever had with her.

 

I found what she said utterly shocking, but as I had already developed feelings for her H, it was exactly what I wanted to hear.

 

I think my case is peculiar in that I heard this from her own lips, but I suspect many OW/OM have just as much faith in similar beliefs about the lack of love in BS. I in fact clung to my belief for months after DDay, to the extent that I drove myself mad with wondering why she was reconciling with this man she 'didn't love'.

 

Then in a confrontation 1 year after DDay with me she said she had never said this, and that she had always loved him. (Apparently it's something others also heard her say, so I am confident in my own memories. I wonder why she is selective?). I feel very stupid and naive about all this, and the A would certainly not have happened if she had not said this to me. I feel I was kind of gaslighted? I have negative thoughts about her in relation to this, but I do not really feel I am entitled to them! Mostly, I feel dumb. Sometimes I laugh at myself, rather than feeling negative towards her.

 

2. The second set of negative thoughts I have about her I have even less justification for. Because I know it may have no basis in reality. But I can't help feeling she was instrumental in xMOM not having a closure conversation with me post-DDay. He certainly intended to do this as we discussed it by phone before he stopped all contact. I know I may be wrong, but I feel this was her revenge on me. And I also see she was entitled to it, whereas I am not entitled to my negative feelings, though I definately have to admit I have them. And really, I fully see my chagrin should be directed at my AP in this respect.

 

3. The third part comes from what she said to me in the confrontation, which was 'I don't care how f***ed up you are, just p**s off and leave us alone'. While I sympathise with her sentiments, I feel she could have been kinder to me, someone else who has been hurt, albeit with more responsibility. But I can't really justify this either, as I have no idea if xMOM has lied about me and the A, so that her utter lack of compassion may be fully understandable should I be fully aware of her mind set.

 

I know he lied and minimised in his initial DDay revelation. I do not know if he quickly came clean, painted me an evil whore, or just stuck to his story.

 

Anyway, the picture as I have it is that xMOM tells her he never loved me (perhaps true, though not what he told me at the time, or even after 10 months NC), and that she tells him she always loved him (also not what she told me). When I'm not laughing at myself, or tryingto feel indifferent, this particular set of lies tortures me and makes me angry towards them. This is not helped by me knowing full well I am not entitled to my anger after my poor behaviour!

Please don't think that way. You are fully entitled to your anger and believing otherwise is - as you said - not helpful.

[jennie-jennie]

Interesting.....because as we cried together, raged together, (or rather, I at him) went to counseling, tried to console devasted children, lost many,many friends, saw the pain felt by our siblings, dealt with his bone-crushing guilt, my mind-blowing rage....I/We believed that for her, there were no repurcussions, no consequences other than the loss of the relationship.

 

She wasn't "outed" anywhere by anyone. She did not lose friends. Her family didn't know. Her child was unaffected. Her secrets were still her secrets.

 

So we didn't sail off into any sunset by any means. Not for a very long time.

 

"Her child was unaffected." When the mother of a child goes through heart break, no child will be unaffected.

 

And if indeed, the relationship has been a secret, where will the OW get support, who will comfort her and listen to her, who will help her get through the pain? Must she not indeed put on a happy face to conceal her feelings since no one knows?

[bentnotbroken]

"Her child was unaffected." When the mother of a child goes through heart break, no child will be unaffected.

 

And if indeed, the relationship has been a secret, where will the OW get support, who will comfort her and listen to her, who will help her get through the pain? Must she not indeed put on a happy face to conceal her feelings since no one knows?

 

 

I thought you said if a parent doesn't display anything to upset the child(paraphrasing here)the child wouldn't be affected. Is this not what you have said in previous threads where we have talked about a BW being emotionally devastated? If I am wrong...I will apologize.

[Ellin]

That's called a consequence, ever heard of it? That pain should be lesson learned for entering into a relationship they shouldn't have been in anyway.

First of all, there is no need to patronise me.

 

Secondly, I'm speaking of emotions, you - moral judgements. Two different things and I'm not interested in the latter. Because I believe in the saying about the one casting the first stone. And because this is supposed to be an emotional support forum, not a preaching site.

[PortuguesePrincess80]

That's called a consequence, ever heard of it? That pain should be lesson learned for entering into a relationship they shouldn't have been in anyway.

 

 

Absolutely agree! It's not like they didn't know what they were getting involved with. A cheating liar..period. How shocking is that to know he lied to an OW as well?

[PortuguesePrincess80]

First of all, there is no need to patronise me.

 

Secondly, I'm speaking of emotions, you - moral judgements. Two different things and I'm not interested in the latter. Because I believe in the saying about the one casting the first stone. And because this is supposed to be an emotional support forum, not a preaching site.

 

 

Only your on the wrong side of the forum looking for support.

[D-Lish]

First of all, there is no need to patronise me.

 

Secondly, I'm speaking of emotions, you - moral judgements. Two different things and I'm not interested in the latter. Because I believe in the saying about the one casting the first stone. And because this is supposed to be an emotional support forum, not a preaching site.

 

You'll get both support and judgement here because it's an open forum.

You don't have to engage everyone that responds to you.

 

Only your on the wrong side of the forum looking for support.

 

There is no wrong side PP. I think what you mean is that she's on the wrong side of your personal moral judgement.

[wheelwright]

I think you are entitled to your anger in that a person scorned is a person scorned.

 

I am sorry that they both circled wagons and re-wrote the marital history. That is a double-whammy, especially in denying her conversation with you.

 

And then he re-wrote the affair history with her, you suspect.

 

Unfortunately, this is unkind, but may be somewhat normal in BOTH joining forces to meet the common goal of keeping the interloper out of the marriage. Unfair too. It seems desperate to me on some level. You have become the common enemy.

 

This is not very enlightened, introspective on their part or truly healing, IMHO.

 

But it is what it is, I do not blame you for being angry. Angry with no place to go with it.

 

 

I have no place nor any right to go anywhere with the anger. It's fleeting anyway, cos of who I am.

 

I agree with how you see it. I still feel a fool.

 

Thank you for frankly bothering to care, when I am in effect an OW, and you a BS.

 

I wonder if all this talk of revenge, is really a need for closure? It's not that we want to hurt the other, but that we need our own hurt recognised and resolved. Wherever we are in the 'triangle'?

 

Because even when I feel my negative thoughts, I wish BS and xMOM well. I just wish me well too.

[crazycatlady]

I have no place nor any right to go anywhere with the anger. It's fleeting anyway, cos of who I am.

 

I agree with how you see it. I still feel a fool.

 

Thank you for frankly bothering to care, when I am in effect an OW, and you a BS.

 

I wonder if all this talk of revenge, is really a need for closure? It's not that we want to hurt the other, but that we need our own hurt recognised and resolved. Wherever we are in the 'triangle'?

 

Because even when I feel my negative thoughts, I wish BS and xMOM well. I just wish me well too.

 

First, WW, I don't think what you did was all that wrong given everything going on, and I don't think it was about revenge at all.

 

However I bolded that part that I think is the case for me. Because while I've dealt with it with my H, I didn't with my sister. And because of her reaction, I don't know if it will happen, if it can happen, if I care - except for the lingering pain, resentment, bitterness, thoughts of revenge I've been having - if it even should happen. I feel a greater distrust towards her then ever before, a heck of a lot more vulnerability because she knew I wanted to talk to her about it and try to heal the breech and she caused things to happen to keep that talk from happening, and then after that ignored all calls and text messages from me and only saw me around other family members.

 

I'm the nice guy and she played me because of that so I'm resentful. I should have let my H just tell them all, maybe...and just dealt with that fallout.

 

CCL

[SidLyon]

A number of interesting points of view on this thread. Wheelwright in particular thank you for your honesty.

 

Just generally I'm not comfortable with the idea that revenge is a "right" that some may have a higher entitlement to over another.

 

I will now be honest and say I'm harbouring thoughts of revenge on the OW by "outing" to her current partner. She has essentially been partnerless since d-day, because her H had died, although I always had a suspicion she was with a particular guy that I now know for sure she is with.

 

The positives for outing her are that it might satisfy a desire for revenge in me. I can't imagine I can ever inflict on her anywhere near the same amount of damage that she helped inflict on me.

 

I'm thinking about the negatives on outing her as I write.

[jennie-jennie]

I thought you said if a parent doesn't display anything to upset the child(paraphrasing here)the child wouldn't be affected. Is this not what you have said in previous threads where we have talked about a BW being emotionally devastated? If I am wrong...I will apologize.

 

At first I thought you were mistaking me for someone else, but I wonder if it is the following you mean:

I have said that my MM feels that it is in his children's best interest that he remains married, since the atmosphere at home is a loving and caring one. My own opinion is though, that even while the above is true, my MM is teaching his children to become WS, BS and OP in the future.

 

At a Dday or the end of either the marriage or the extramarital relationship, I would think the emotions would be so strong, it would be virtually impossible to hide them from the kids. I know my MM's wife spent 3 days depressed in bed, just having learnt of my existence (as a former friend). I spent most of our NC week in bed depressed myself. My youngest daughter was devastated that I was not my usual self able to care for her.

 

When it comes to my kids, they just need to take one look at me, and they know when MM and I are having trouble. It doesn't matter if I don't display it. They know.

Edited August 8, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[jennie-jennie]

That's called a consequence, ever heard of it? That pain should be lesson learned for entering into a relationship they shouldn't have been in anyway.

 

And how does the fact that it is a consequence in any way lessen the pain?

[Ellin]

Only your on the wrong side of the forum looking for support.

I'm not looking for support on this thread, to beging with.

 

And I don't think you are the owner of this forum to decide who can look for support in here.

[Ellin]

You'll get both support and judgement here because it's an open forum.

You don't have to engage everyone that responds to you.

I know that. But I'm against judgements. I don't judge and don't want to be judged. If I judge someone I put myself higher than that person. I don't think it's right.

 

From the description of this forum, as it advertises itself, I get an impression that the purpose is support. Judgement is not the same thing. It's actually against the principle of support.

[Ellin]

And how does the fact that it is a consequence in any way lessen the pain?

Some people believe that if you did something that is less than morally perfect from their subjective point of view, you deserve the pain which it resulted in and should humbly accept it, while also engaging in self-condemnation all the way through it.

[xxoo]

And how does the fact that it is a consequence in any way lessen the pain?

 

It doesn't lessen the pain. I have deep compassion for the pain that OP deal with in affairs.

 

But the full picture is that the OP knowingly, willingly walked into an emotional minefield. The pain is a consequence of that choice. The same is not true for the BS.

 

OW/OM often ends up devastated and hurt more than any time before by the way things are during and after A. It's only natural to wish the person who caused it would also feel pain. It is upsetting to think that the one who plunged the OW/OM's life into turmoil is going to sail away into the sunset with the W/H. The BS becomes the target of these fantasies by proxy.

 

Who plunged the OW/OM's life into turmoil? The answer is: the OW/OM. Recognizing that doesn't dismiss pain, but reveals power.

[Ellin]

Who plunged the OW/OM's life into turmoil? The answer is: the OW/OM. Recognizing that doesn't dismiss pain, but reveals power.

Of course, on a deep level we are the authors of our life stories, but it's not as simple as that. Humans are driven by emotions which come from the subconscious, and inside it are things that have been handed to us in the early part of out lives, when we had no control.

 

It is a very difficult and long process to change that later in life. So it's not all about free will and choice at all. Although it is powerful and important to gain insight and knowledge about it.

 

On a more mundane level, MM/MW often give promises which later turn out to be empty, but as OW/OM feel intense love, they believe it and have hopes, then get very painful disappointments. They live in a sort of suspensions that erodes their strengths day after day. Every minute is a rollercoaster and it is difficult to gain closure in the end. Much have been written about it on the forum. To say that OW/OM should have known is a great over-simplification.

[jennie-jennie]

It doesn't lessen the pain. I have deep compassion for the pain that OP deal with in affairs.

 

But the full picture is that the OP knowingly, willingly walked into an emotional minefield. The pain is a consequence of that choice. The same is not true for the BS.

 

Interesting that you compare it to an emotional minefield. I was so hurt and emotionally damaged when my MM and I reconnected, that he compared it to him standing in a minefield unable to move, not knowing where to put his foot down next so as not to trigger a mine. Slowly I learnt to trust him, as he willingly stayed put in my emotional mine field.

 

Our relationship has been about disarming my mines more than anything else. It has overall been healing to me emotionally.

 

Who plunged the OW/OM's life into turmoil? The answer is: the OW/OM. Recognizing that doesn't dismiss pain, but reveals power.

 

Generally it is the MM who decides to stay married, against the wishes of the OW, thereby setting the parameters of their relationship. Thus the revengeful thoughts towards him.