Revenge? Who Has the right?

[Snowflower]

Bitter not in the least. Confused perhaps. Sounds like your the bitter OW who wants what she can't have...therefore has to justify her actions on a forum to get some sort of gratification for helping a loser dissolve his marriage. Either way...sounds like you 2 are a match made in heaven if that has any grounds for ya.

 

Princess, please be respectful of TOW. You might not like what she has to say but this is a place for all of us to learn about the other side.

 

I don't want to see you get banned from LS. I know you're angry and that's okay but it's not the fault of posters here.

[Owl]

Princess, please be respectful of TOW. You might not like what she has to say but this is a place for all of us to learn about the other side.

 

I don't want to see you get banned from LS. I know you're angry and that's okay but it's not the fault of posters here.

 

I'd like to second this, Princess. While you personally might not care if you're "personally attacking" or not, it can result in the moderator enforcing the Terms of Service and you would find yourself unable to post here further.

 

That wouldn't do you or anyone else any good in the long run.

[PortuguesePrincess80]

Princess, please be respectful of TOW. You might not like what she has to say but this is a place for all of us to learn about the other side.

 

I don't want to see you get banned from LS. I know you're angry and that's okay but it's not the fault of posters here.

 

Fair enough Snowflower..thanks! I am trying to see the justification...can't though. Doesnt matter...we're allowed to disagree right? If I get banned..well I get banned..what can ya do? At least I spoke my mind.

[Snowflower]

Interesting question.

 

If not "innocent"...then guilty of precisely what?

 

Participating in a marriage that may (or may not) have "issues"?

 

Does that mean that they're by default guilty of causing those issues?

 

See, here's where I have an issue with this concept. What I've noticed is that a lot of times, the "issues" in the marriage more often center around the WS than the BS. Now, of course there are times when it's shared, and there are times when the BS is so mental that the WS is nearly a saint for staying as long as they did.

 

But it seems to me that a lot of times, the "issue" that exists in the marriage that creates the biggest problem is often the WS's sense of entitlement. Their own self-centeredness and selfishness...and that trait is one of the most common 'factors' that leads them to the choice to cheat on their spouse rather than address the issue head on.

 

When I read statements like the one bolded above, I'm sorry but the only thing that comes out of that is that someone is trying to blame the BS for the affair. People say that the affair is the WS's choice....but when they add in that the BS is responsible for the marriage...they're implying that the BS deserved or earned the affair in some fashion.

It's like saying "I don't think you're a thief, but please stop stealing from me".

 

It negates the first part of the sentence.

 

Well said, Owl. Thank you.

 

I have been very vocal here many times about mistakes I made in my pre-affair marriage. I have actually found that it was difficult for me to forgive myself for a long time.

 

But to say the BS was responsible for the state of the marriage pre-affair, always makes me feel like I'm basically being told I "deserved" to get cheated on.

[Mimolicious]

 

I understand that we all see the world through the lens of our personal experiences (I do it as well) – but you don’t know us or our history and you CERTAINLY don’t know what my SO is thinking.

 

 

BTW, you may be a BS but you don’t have to be a bitter one. The choice is yours.

 

You see! You making progress kiddo! The bolded part, try applying it to others too. You don't know what you don't know. There are 1000 of LS'ers and they come with a different story, yet if you really take a look everyone is here one way or another identifies with one another. We all have something in common WE HAVE ALL FELT VERY SIMILAR PAIN! Not "joy" this ain't TheKnot.

 

Princess- that was really tactless. Trust me, I wan to curse a few mofo's here as well but that gets us nowhere.

 

Now back to you TNYC- see you comment at the end... that's also uncalled for. That's attacking as well. She doens't have to be anything to be bitter. There are plenty of old-maids that are very very bitter for not giving out the cookie. Let's cut it out before T end the party.

 

But if you heard a specific POV's from a OW you know IRL - would you refrain from posting those things here on LS? It wouldn't be an assumption, it would be fact. So is it less valid because you didn't "experience" it yourself?

 

Now I have to comment on the above. I wouldn't call it less "valid" but it is one-sided. Remember, every story has 3 sides to it (in this case 4). His/hers/others and the truth. It's not a fact, it is an assumption. You are assuming that what your friend (doesn't have to be OW) tells you is actually a fact. You don't know for sure because it is not your personal experience. So, you're going to base your opinions on someone else's POV? It can be water-down third party info for all you know. Personally, I wouldn't be interested to hear stuff that is handmedown. I'll stop tunning in then... (this is making my head spin... I need a drink)

 

Working in media taught me that when you don't know the truth, add the disclosure "allegedly". Saves us from a law-suit!

[Snowflower]

SF - I have never been a BW, you're right about that. But when it comes to "knowing what the BW thinks", that is not something I've created out of thin air.

 

I'm not saying my posts are what ALL BS's think - but I've been privy to some "BW thoughts" IRL and that is the viewpoint I put out here on LS. I admit those viewpoints were not personally experienced but if I heard it "come out of the horse's mouth", doesn't it hold some value?

 

 

 

But if you heard a specific POV's from a OW you know IRL - would you refrain from posting those things here on LS? It wouldn't be an assumption, it would be fact. So is it less valid because you didn't "experience" it yourself?

 

 

 

I don't know what every single BW is thinking - only the ones who have talked to me about it. I don't assume things about every single M out there either - I can only go by the ones I've seen first hand and discussed with the person involved in the M.

 

But I WILL assume I know "something" about A's, if only because I'm involved with my SO.

 

And friends, of course.

 

I get what you're saying...I guess because it's not my MO here on LS to post from other perspectives besides my own, that I don't really know how to answer your questions (bolded) above.

 

I even feel weird trying to post from the WS point of view, using my husband as a basis. I always feel like I'm saying "well, my husband said" or "it's like this with WS because of my husband..." I used to try to post his (a WS) POV when I first came to LS months ago and was called out for it. (not meanly, but just as a point to consider).

 

So, I guess I like it better when I can discuss things with an OW when there are no unspoken assumptions about how a BS feels.

[Mimolicious]

Well said, Owl. Thank you.

 

I have been very vocal here many times about mistakes I made in my pre-affair marriage. I have actually found that it was difficult for me to forgive myself for a long time.

 

But to say the BS was responsible for the state of the marriage pre-affair, always makes me feel like I'm basically being told I "deserved" to get cheated on.

 

Yes, I feel the same. Even the person who put me through it doesn't think I deserved what he did.

 

I can say that I can look back and see where I went wrong. I trusted my xH blindly. He was allowed to be "free" but my definition of "free" and his were obviously totally different. I am a sagittarius- I was born to be "free" and loyal. LOL! My "free" never meant let me go out and play cause this sucka trusts me and he wont know! His was. He saw himself shine and he had the freedom needed to run wild. My mother called me out on it. She said I should have ball and chain his a$$. Gave him too many chances. BIG MISTAKE! I should have left the 1st time he got caught. It was hard... If I knew then... tsk, tsk, tsk.

[silktricks]

But is it really? Isn't the constant talk we see here on LS from former OW about the lying, cheating cake-eaters?

 

Who often would take the gentleman back in a heart-stopping second if he'd have them. That's not the same IMO as what I've both seen and experienced from OW simply and solely because I was a BS - but that's not even what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the personal enmity sometimes displayed by OW toward the BS in their own triangle. And, of course, I am speaking from personal experience....

[silktricks]

While I firmly believe that, at the time of my affair, my ex-wife was a victim thereof, I would not, in any way, shape or form call her innocent.

 

Those two words simply do not go hand-in-hand in the situation of an extra marital affair. Victim, yes. But, in most cases, the betrayed spouse is hardly innocent.

 

Acknowledging certainly that the decision to cheat is solely on the back of the one cheating, of course.

Whoa - and upon exactly what are you basing this extremely generalized statement? In MOST cases? Hardly innocent??? This sounds like a lot of anger. Coming from - what???

[ladydesigner]

Originally Posted by HappyAtLast While I firmly believe that, at the time of my affair, my ex-wife was a victim thereof, I would not, in any way, shape or form call her innocent.

 

Those two words simply do not go hand-in-hand in the situation of an extra marital affair. Victim, yes. But, in most cases, the betrayed spouse is hardly innocent.

 

Acknowledging certainly that the decision to cheat is solely on the back of the one cheating, of course.

See I think my H felt this way when he betrayed me. He felt he was not getting enough ( sex, emotional, you name it) and he wasn't. I am to blame for that. I was drained emotionally from some life-changing events on top of having our first child and I just really didn't have it in me. So I guess in that regard I was not innocent. My H got his needs met elsewhere. I'm just happy he did not fall in love with any of the OW, or at least it seems to be that way.

[TinaniT]

Interesting to note in another thread, that an OW having feelings of revenge towards her MM, his BS, and THEIR marriage is supported by some because those feelings are "normal" when thrown under the bus by a MM who returns to reconcile.

 

But often, the much maligned BS is frequently considered cold, vicious (a word I was once called) vengeful and crazy when they out the affair to the world, or spray paint their WS's car with the word "cheater," or inform the MOW/MOM's spouse.

 

So, isn't a woman scorned a woman scorned?

 

Why is it necessary to have camps that seem to espouse a greater right to ownership of vengeful feelings?

 

Isn't it correct to assume that all people when in great pain, seek to lash out at the object or objects of that pain?

 

Whether it be the WS, OW, OM, BS? The affair relationship? And the marital relationship?

 

Feelings are normal. Psycho actions are not.

Spray paint? Really? Dear lord, that is beyond insane. I hope no one actually did that. And personally, I think the mass outing is pretty classless, too, but it's definitely a couple notches down from spraypainting something on the cuckoo for cocoa puffs meter.

 

I choose to eschew such hateful feelings as having no place and have in the past, as well, but I certainly can understand feelings. You can't control feelings. Vent if you need to. Write in your diary. But acting in an uncalculated and forgiving manner will certainly cause me to lose respect for a person. (And saying all people seek to lash out is not true at all.)

[HappyAtLast]

Interesting question.

 

If not "innocent"...then guilty of precisely what?

 

Participating in a marriage that may (or may not) have "issues"?

 

Does that mean that they're by default guilty of causing those issues?

 

See, here's where I have an issue with this concept. What I've noticed is that a lot of times, the "issues" in the marriage more often center around the WS than the BS. Now, of course there are times when it's shared, and there are times when the BS is so mental that the WS is nearly a saint for staying as long as they did.

 

But it seems to me that a lot of times, the "issue" that exists in the marriage that creates the biggest problem is often the WS's sense of entitlement. Their own self-centeredness and selfishness...and that trait is one of the most common 'factors' that leads them to the choice to cheat on their spouse rather than address the issue head on.

 

When I read statements like the one bolded above, I'm sorry but the only thing that comes out of that is that someone is trying to blame the BS for the affair. People say that the affair is the WS's choice....but when they add in that the BS is responsible for the marriage...they're implying that the BS deserved or earned the affair in some fashion.

 

It's like saying "I don't think you're a thief, but please stop stealing from me".

 

It negates the first part of the sentence.

 

I absolutely in no way hold my ex-wife accountable for my affair. That was solely my choice and my responsibility. I own it and I always have.

 

That said, I do not believe that in a deteriorating (or in my case deteriorated) marriage that either party is innocent.

 

In my post, and my humble opinion, one has nothing to do with the other. Hence, calling someone an innocent victim just is not always true. Someone can be a victim of a particular situation but yet not be innocent. My ex-wife was a victim of my affair, but she was not innocent in our marriage.

 

Or, maybe another example: Tom prepared his and Mary's taxes last year taxes last year, fraudulently, unbeknownst to Mary. The IRS catches this fraud, Mary is innocent. Yet three years ago, prior to their marriage Mary did not report her entire income on her taxes. Is Mary a victim of Tom's tax evasion? Yes. Is Mary entirely innocent? I think not.

 

Does this help/

[HappyAtLast]

Well said, Owl. Thank you.

 

I have been very vocal here many times about mistakes I made in my pre-affair marriage. I have actually found that it was difficult for me to forgive myself for a long time.

 

But to say the BS was responsible for the state of the marriage pre-affair, always makes me feel like I'm basically being told I "deserved" to get cheated on.

 

Please don't misunderstand me. Both parties ARE responsible for the state of their marriage pre-affair. Regardless, cheating is a choice that no one deserves.

[HappyAtLast]

Whoa - and upon exactly what are you basing this extremely generalized statement? In MOST cases? Hardly innocent??? This sounds like a lot of anger. Coming from - what???

 

Many, many years of experience in dealing with people. In most cases there are problems in a marriage and in most cases, both folks are responsible for them. No one is innocent within a marriage.

 

Again, that said, it does not in any way justify stepping outside of your marriage.

 

I am sorry that you feel I am coming across an angry, but I definitely am not.

[NoIDidn't]

I absolutely in no way hold my ex-wife accountable for my affair. That was solely my choice and my responsibility. I own it and I always have.

 

That said, I do not believe that in a deteriorating (or in my case deteriorated) marriage that either party is innocent.

 

In my post, and my humble opinion, one has nothing to do with the other. Hence, calling someone an innocent victim just is not always true. Someone can be a victim of a particular situation but yet not be innocent. My ex-wife was a victim of my affair, but she was not innocent in our marriage.

 

Or, maybe another example: Tom prepared his and Mary's taxes last year taxes last year, fraudulently, unbeknownst to Mary. The IRS catches this fraud, Mary is innocent. Yet three years ago, prior to their marriage Mary did not report her entire income on her taxes. Is Mary a victim of Tom's tax evasion? Yes. Is Mary entirely innocent? I think not.

 

Does this help/

 

Then she was an innocent victim of your affair because she was not taking part in it and it was your choice as you have said here. You also said that one did not have anything to do with the other.

 

Your marriage was a separate entity from your affair. She was innocent of the affair. And that is what I think OWL and the others are talking about. Saying she was "hardly innocent" in that you chose to have an affair comes across as you blaming her for your choice to have an affair.

 

Regarding your tax evasion analogy, I disagree. Mary is completely innocent of the tax evasion done by Tom. Completely innocent - she didn't know. What she did three years prior has nothing to do with what he did without her knowledge. She's guilty of what she did do and your analogy states that she had nothing to do with his choice. So you are comparing apples and oranges, IMO. Blame her for what she did do, not for what she didn't do.

[bentnotbroken]

I absolutely in no way hold my ex-wife accountable for my affair. That was solely my choice and my responsibility. I own it and I always have.

 

That said, I do not believe that in a deteriorating (or in my case deteriorated) marriage that either party is innocent.

 

In my post, and my humble opinion, one has nothing to do with the other. Hence, calling someone an innocent victim just is not always true. Someone can be a victim of a particular situation but yet not be innocent. My ex-wife was a victim of my affair, but she was not innocent in our marriage.

 

Or, maybe another example: Tom prepared his and Mary's taxes last year taxes last year, fraudulently, unbeknownst to Mary. The IRS catches this fraud, Mary is innocent. Yet three years ago, prior to their marriage Mary did not report her entire income on her taxes. Is Mary a victim of Tom's tax evasion? Yes. Is Mary entirely innocent? I think not.

 

Does this help/

 

 

This I can completely agree with. I was the innocent victim of Mr. Messy's choice to cheat through out our marriage. But I did things that never should have happened and I am sure they had a negative affect on him.

[turnstone]

You can't have it both ways, either the BS has a hand in the choice a WS makes to have an affair, or s/he doesn't.

 

I don't care how bad a marriage is, it is no reason for a WS to choose to have an affair. The BS is not responsible in any shape or form for that action by the WS.

 

This whole bullshyt insinuation is just another example of WS's being unable to own their crap and the willingness of OW to see the BS as the bitch who deserved everything she got.

[Spark1111]

I have to say catergorically that I will NEVER forgive either my husband or former friend for their affair. I am learning to live with it -yes. But forgive??!!!

I no longer want to do unspeakable,illegal acts to the pair of them but still hope that it all eventually falls apart for them (because I'm human and because of the terrible hurt they've knowingly inflicted on so many innocent people.)

 

I think this is a normal human reaction to having been betrayed. Thank you for your honesty in admitting it.

[Spark1111]

Okay, okay, I never said the BS wasn't an innocent victim. I just said that seeing yourself as such it is easy to become bitter and revengeful.

 

When I was the BS, I chose to see my SOs' serial cheating as compulsiveness, and thus it was not directed at me, even though I was the innocent victim of it, and thus I did not become bitter and revengeful.

 

Maybe if there are other issues of character to point to: substance abuse, mental health instability, etc. it could be easier to say I was betrayed but for reasons having little to do with me.

 

Many do not have those options, and the betrayal is taken on a very, very, personal level....

 

Because it is personal. Whether OW, BS, MP....vengeful thoughts are possible.

[Spark1111]

Interesting question.

 

If not "innocent"...then guilty of precisely what?

 

Participating in a marriage that may (or may not) have "issues"?

 

Does that mean that they're by default guilty of causing those issues?

 

See, here's where I have an issue with this concept. What I've noticed is that a lot of times, the "issues" in the marriage more often center around the WS than the BS. Now, of course there are times when it's shared, and there are times when the BS is so mental that the WS is nearly a saint for staying as long as they did.

 

But it seems to me that a lot of times, the "issue" that exists in the marriage that creates the biggest problem is often the WS's sense of entitlement. Their own self-centeredness and selfishness...and that trait is one of the most common 'factors' that leads them to the choice to cheat on their spouse rather than address the issue head on.

 

When I read statements like the one bolded above, I'm sorry but the only thing that comes out of that is that someone is trying to blame the BS for the affair. People say that the affair is the WS's choice....but when they add in that the BS is responsible for the marriage...they're implying that the BS deserved or earned the affair in some fashion.

 

It's like saying "I don't think you're a thief, but please stop stealing from me".

 

It negates the first part of the sentence.

 

Excellent post, OWL!

 

And sometimes, the BS is guilty of NOTHING other than loving the WS, going about the daily business of maintaining the family, the home, the social circle and the bills, and asking repeatedly:

 

"Is something wrong? You seem unhappy and somewhat distant? Want to talk about it?"

 

And receiving: "No! Why would you think that? It's just (fill-in-the-blank) the job, the bills, my parents are sick, blah, blah, blah."

 

Imagine that?

[Spark1111]

Feelings are normal. Psycho actions are not.

Spray paint? Really? Dear lord, that is beyond insane. I hope no one actually did that. And personally, I think the mass outing is pretty classless, too, but it's definitely a couple notches down from spraypainting something on the cuckoo for cocoa puffs meter.

 

I choose to eschew such hateful feelings as having no place and have in the past, as well, but I certainly can understand feelings. You can't control feelings. Vent if you need to. Write in your diary. But acting in an uncalculated and forgiving manner will certainly cause me to lose respect for a person. (And saying all people seek to lash out is not true at all.)

 

TinianT: Have you ever been betrayed by someone you love?

 

Google "cheater." You would be amazed at the results. Some have even gone so far as to rent huge billboards.

 

This cannot surprise you.

[Spark1111]

Many, many years of experience in dealing with people. In most cases there are problems in a marriage and in most cases, both folks are responsible for them. No one is innocent within a marriage.

 

Again, that said, it does not in any way justify stepping outside of your marriage.

 

I am sorry that you feel I am coming across an angry, but I definitely am not.

 

HAL, did you take proactive steps did you take to repair your marriage before you made the choice to cheat?

 

Was your wife aware that her lack of participation in repairing the relationship could/would possible cause you to have an affair?

 

Just curious....

[Spark1111]

You can't have it both ways, either the BS has a hand in the choice a WS makes to have an affair, or s/he doesn't.

 

I don't care how bad a marriage is, it is no reason for a WS to choose to have an affair. The BS is not responsible in any shape or form for that action by the WS.

 

This whole bullshyt insinuation is just another example of WS's being unable to own their crap and the willingness of OW to see the BS as the bitch who deserved everything she got.

 

Turnstone, would you agree that moving towards an immediate divorce with a WS desperate to reconcile is an act of revenge?

 

Or do think it is more self-preservation?

 

...with elements of revenge?

 

Just curious in your POV.

[turnstone]

Self preservation all the way. Spending one second longer than I had to as his wife would have merely opened myself up to further abuse. No matter how repentant my exH was, there is no doubt he would have reverted to type, he just couldn't help himself.

 

The revenge part was outing the affairs to his numerous OW, his colleagues and his friends, and then outing the subsequent STD to the same people. It also felt pretty good to take his 'compensation' and then make sure he knew where it went. Now where's the smug smilie?

 

[Ellin]

Interesting to note in another thread, that an OW having feelings of revenge towards her MM, his BS, and THEIR marriage is supported by some because those feelings are "normal" when thrown under the bus by a MM who returns to reconcile.

 

But often, the much maligned BS is frequently considered cold, vicious (a word I was once called) vengeful and crazy when they out the affair to the world, or spray paint their WS's car with the word "cheater," or inform the MOW/MOM's spouse.

 

So, isn't a woman scorned a woman scorned?

 

Why is it necessary to have camps that seem to espouse a greater right to ownership of vengeful feelings?

 

Isn't it correct to assume that all people when in great pain, seek to lash out at the object or objects of that pain?

 

Whether it be the WS, OW, OM, BS? The affair relationship? And the marital relationship?

OW/OM often ends up devastated and hurt more than any time before by the way things are during and after A. It's only natural to wish the person who caused it would also feel pain. It is upsetting to think that the one who plunged the OW/OM's life into turmoil is going to sail away into the sunset with the W/H. The BS becomes the target of these fantasies by proxy.

 

There's nothing wrong with OW/OM feeling this way. People cannot be blamed and judged by the way they feel. Only by their actions. So as long as these thought remain just that, there is no issue here.