Silly_Girl Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 I read the swingers thread, and got to thinking about the relationship between monogamy and being faithful and or/disrespectful. There was this quote: That is where intellect and morality come into play. I have the intellect and morality to stay faithful to my partner. In fact I take pride in it. Chivalry is not dead to me, that is why I find swingers abhorrent. Now, swinging is definitely not my thing, but I won't knock it - I've not tried it. But I have watched several documentaries on it and find all types of multi-partner relationships fascinating. Mostly because I could never imagine enjoying or sustaining having two partners/intimate relationships myself. Regarding infidelity, I understood the premise to be that there is no cheating if both parties give their consent. I think 'open marriage' was referred to in a different thread in that if the MM's wife truly knew about the OW and was accepting of it then it was no longer an affair but an open marriage. For me, I thought open marriage was when the parties agreed terms, not when one forced the terms on the other... and I suspect the latter is the case in the instance I am thinking of. But I may very well be wrong, on both counts. The issue of being aware of additional relationships comes back to one of my favourite tenets of this board, which is you are always at liberty to renegotiate the terms of YOUR relationship. You find out, you don't like it, you take action to suit you. It's very much more complex than that, where practicalities are concerned but fundamentally that's it. That aside, I'm curious whether one is unfaithful to one's spouse if the spouse knows about it and choose not to speak up? Is it being unfaithful when both parties agree? Why shouldn't people who want multiple sex partners get married? Er... provided they marry someone who wants that for their life also, of course!
Snowflower Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 The issue of being aware of additional relationships comes back to one of my favourite tenets of this board, which is you are always at liberty to renegotiate the terms of YOUR relationship. You find out, you don't like it, you take action to suit you. It's very much more complex than that, where practicalities are concerned but fundamentally that's it. That aside, I'm curious whether one is unfaithful to one's spouse if the spouse knows about it and choose not to speak up? Is it being unfaithful when both parties agree? Let me take it one step further and say IMO, it is no longer being unfaithful when at least one of the spouses has said they are no longer going to be faithful to marriage. There is always a lot of talk about marriage vows on this board, upholding them, breaking them, etc. IMO, a marriage begins by both parties saying a set a vows agreeing to do this and not do that...usually the wording and intent is quite similar no matter what type of ceremony it is. Since a marriage is started by a set of promises and words, can't it be effectively ended by at least one spouse saying, for example, "do not expect me to be faithful any longer?" I'm thinking in terms of a separation. Of course, there are legal and often financial requirements in ending a marriage, i.e. legal divorce. But IMO, the marriage is effectively ended when at least one spouse says it is...and often long before the legal process starts. It's why I don't get why one spouse is so upset when their estranged spouse (meaning separated) is dating others before the divorce.
Author Silly_Girl Posted August 3, 2010 Author Posted August 3, 2010 Let me take it one step further and say IMO, it is no longer being unfaithful when at least one of the spouses has said they are no longer going to be faithful to marriage. That's it, yes. I have posted before about informing the other you will be withdrawing the commitment or promise, and that's what's necessary. Thanks! There is always a lot of talk about marriage vows on this board, upholding them, breaking them, etc. IMO, a marriage begins by both parties saying a set a vows agreeing to do this and not do that...usually the wording and intent is quite similar no matter what type of ceremony it is. Since a marriage is started by a set of promises and words, can't it be effectively ended by at least one spouse saying, for example, "do not expect me to be faithful any longer?" I'm thinking in terms of a separation. Of course, there are legal and often financial requirements in ending a marriage, i.e. legal divorce. But IMO, the marriage is effectively ended when at least one spouse says it is...and often long before the legal process starts. It's why I don't get why one spouse is so upset when their estranged spouse (meaning separated) is dating others before the divorce. I fully agree with the dating before divorce thing. I very much think that once both parties have decided the relationship has ended, it's ended. There's healing and politics and arrangements, but the commitment has been MUTUALLY dissolved and they're free to lay who they wish.
OWoman Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 But IMO, the marriage is effectively ended when at least one spouse says it is...and often long before the legal process starts. Agreed. The other party then has the option to stay on - accepting the terms (of no sexual exclusivity) or to move on to something else, but the old agreement has been rendered void.
Snowflower Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 Agreed. The other party then has the option to stay on - accepting the terms (of no sexual exclusivity) or to move on to something else, but the old agreement has been rendered void. Yup, as long as the spouse who is ending the agreement is up front about the fact that they are changing the terms of the relationship. In marriage in particular, it is a series of agreements or promises that establish and maintain the relationship. If one spouse wants to change/void these promises they need to make it clear to the other one. Unfortunately, in affairs, this doesn't seem to happen (where one partner informs the other that the agreement is changed) and that is where it is a problem.
John Bigboote Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 (edited) It's disrespectful to foist a relationship change on your partner, but it is not disrespectful to have a fully open line of communication with your partner, in which the two of you decide that certain changes are desired. Up and telling your monogamous partner that gosh darn it, you're just not going to be faithful any more is, essentially, cheating. It's not changing the rules. Rules are what the people involved in a relationship decide they are, not what one of them unilaterally decides to do. That is enormously disrespectful. But a fully consensual arrangement deliberately entered into by both parties arising out of honest and fully open communication cannot possibly be disrespectful of anything but an arbitrary set of societally imposed rules that may not work for the couple involved. Some couples' vows differ from yours; I would never vow strict monogamy because strict monogamy is not for me. Nor is it for my partner. We both fantasize about watching each other with other people, watching and being watched, and just having a bit of fun. So we swing, together, and it's fun, and there is no possible way that anyone will ever convince us that we are wrong in fulfilling our mutual desires. Far from being disrespectful, the true disrespect for ourselves and each other would be to defer to other people's worthless opinions on our sex life and NOT swing. Swinging will NOT work when it is unilateral, i.e. when someone tells their partner they are going out to **** around. Without consent, that is cheating and a betrayal of trust. It will not work when it is something monogamous people do out of desperation. It must be something that both parties truly desire, and NEVER something that one of them merely goes along with in order to keep the other. Edited August 3, 2010 by John Bigboote
YellowShark Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 Is it being unfaithful when both parties agree? I say no. If both parties agree to the goalposts being moved from a monogamous relationship to an open relationship then it is not being unfaithful. Why shouldn't people who want multiple sex partners get married? IMHO the whole concept of marriage is a special bond shared between two people based upon commitment and togetherness. Marriage for me is not a special bond based upon commitment while reducing sex to a mechanistic team sport. Call me crazy.
sadintexas Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 I believe it is still cheating if the partner knows and has not verbally given consent to it. Turning a blind eye does not necessarily equate consent. I think it indicates denial or hope more than anything else. It can also indicate fear that if the BS rocks the boat, the WS will walk away with the AP. I don't think this alleviates any culpability for cheating and the pain involved. If anything, I think it potentially causes more pain due to ongoing fear on top of the pain of betrayal. IMO to truly have an open marriage, both partners must agree to it and to the terms of what it will entail. For an open marriage not to be damaging to either party, both have to be fully supportive of the idea. If both parties want an open marriage, then no, I don't consider it cheating at that point. It's a lifestyle choice made by the couple.
Snowflower Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 I believe it is still cheating if the partner knows and has not verbally given consent to it. Turning a blind eye does not necessarily equate consent. I think it indicates denial or hope more than anything else. It can also indicate fear that if the BS rocks the boat, the WS will walk away with the AP. I don't think this alleviates any culpability for cheating and the pain involved. If anything, I think it potentially causes more pain due to ongoing fear on top of the pain of betrayal. I get what you're saying here, SIT but I don't think that is what the OP was asking. This isn't a case of the BS turning a blind eye or burying their head in the sand when they somehow know about their spouse's infidelity (I think that is a rare occurrence anyway). This is more about at least one spouse (sometimes both) changing the original terms of the relationship, for example, fidelity. And being up front with the other one about it. Is it still cheating when at least one partner has said they will no longer uphold the original terms when the relationship/marriage started? A relationship and more specifically, a marriage is comprised of two people who consent to certain terms (fidelity, love, etc). It takes two people to consent (at least these days--no more shotgun weddings)--so if one changes their mind, however unfair that is, it negates the original agreement.
flying Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 I get what you're saying here, SIT but I don't think that is what the OP was asking. This isn't a case of the BS turning a blind eye or burying their head in the sand when they somehow know about their spouse's infidelity (I think that is a rare occurrence anyway). This is more about at least one spouse (sometimes both) changing the original terms of the relationship, for example, fidelity. And being up front with the other one about it. Is it still cheating when at least one partner has said they will no longer uphold the original terms when the relationship/marriage started? A relationship and more specifically, a marriage is comprised of two people who consent to certain terms (fidelity, love, etc). It takes two people to consent (at least these days--no more shotgun weddings)--so if one changes their mind, however unfair that is, it negates the original agreement. Well, the OP did ask if it's being unfaithful if one person does it, the other person knows but doesn't choose to speak up about it. I read that as there have been hints, evidence, D-Days even - but no official "this is how I want it to be from now on" open cards-on-the-table discussion. I think that can happen with some frequency, and that the WS takes no fighting or emotional scenes as tacit agreement. In that scenario, I say yes, it's still cheating - it's not something mutually agreed upon, it's one person just making a decision and hoping they won't get reamed for it. But in the scenario you're describing, where the person who wants to go outside the marriage is open about it but it's still unilateral...well, I don't know. Cheating, not cheating...I mean, it's still kind of crappy to just go ahead and do it knowing your partner isn't really on board. Not very loving. But I guess at the very least it offers the other partner the opportunity to make a decision based on the knowledge. This is just my interpretation of marriage, but I think what two people who get married are really agreeing to is that they'll become a team and make these kinds of big decisions together. Stuff changes, people do fall out of love. But even so, when you marry someone, you've basically agreed that at the very least you'll talk these things out with one another. Just going off and doing something may not be cheating but it's still a violation of trust, IMO. Does it really matter what the label is?
Dexter Morgan Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 Why shouldn't people who want multiple sex partners get married? because its stupid:confused:
sadintexas Posted August 4, 2010 Posted August 4, 2010 I get what you're saying here, SIT but I don't think that is what the OP was asking. Isn't this what she asked? "That aside, I'm curious whether one is unfaithful to one's spouse if the spouse knows about it and choose not to speak up? Is it being unfaithful when both parties agree?" I think I answered these questions. I AM getting older though lol so maybe I didn't.
Art_Critic Posted August 4, 2010 Posted August 4, 2010 Knowing something and being in total agreement with something are not the same. Many people once they find out their partner is in an affair feel they can't do anything about it for a variety of reasons.. kids, money, emotional stability.. whatever... That doesn't mean that if the affair continues or they have another affair that it isn't cheating.. What it means is that the person doing the cheating doesn't have any respect for the person they married and for their kids. If both parties agree to a lifestyle of swinging then it really isn't cheating.. it also isn't a traditional marriage either..
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