***the end game***

[Hazyhead]

I remember starting my A with apprehension. I fought it for about a year and a half as he pursued me relentlessly. One day I just threw my cares into the wind.

 

So unlike me.

 

In that moment, I had made a contract with myself that no matter how badly it ended, no matter how shocked or surprised I'd be should it end, I deserved it because I was gambling with an unknown entity.

 

On D-day #2 I faced that shock. He'd said he would fess up if confronted and he didn't. Years of trust went right down the drain.

 

But you are right, I deserved it on account of that contract I made with the unknown way back when.

 

But it goes much deeper than being selfish, near-sighted, and delusional. I will accept the selfish part and even the delusional part but not the near-sighted part. I always knew I took a risk and knew the outcome could possibly be bad, and it was.

 

The selfish part was...lol...for me. I was pretty much selfLESS in my M and always put my exH first, so much so that I walked on eggshells most of the time. I won't bore you with all the many ways I tried to get my exH to love me, get us in MC, etc., etc., you can read my early threads and posts for that. But when all else failed, and Tall Drink of Water came in, the RISK became worth it to me. I even allowed the delusional to take place because I felt I NEEDED it. People don't accept these conditions unless their life is unsatisfactory. OK, that sounds cold. Unless their life is empty, sad, depressing, insecure, etc. THAT is when we take on risks and step outside of ourselves.

 

I'm not saying there aren't those who just want a bigger **** or lots of variety but I don't think most APs are like that. I think most APs, especially those stuck in sad Ms, are in it for the beautiful distraction, love, and companionship an A can bring.

 

So go ahead and minimize the intelligence of the AP if you wish, but oftentimes they are not the mindless wandering souls you think they are. Oftentimes they are hurting very deeply and only turn to a different kind of R when the risk outweighs facing the bleakness in their life. They know what they're doing, even if the outcome wasn't what they wanted.

 

Good post WF.

 

I, like you, knew what I was getting into. At first I was also in a very long term A so my 'end game' was not, at that point, a happily-ever-after with MM, it was the affair, the thrill, the excitement... the things I was lacking. I realise how selfish this is - not saying I was right, just saying it as it was then.

 

However things changed. For both of us actually and we started to plan a future together. My previous relationship had ended so I was putting my all into xMM. So, I guess I was left 'holding the bag'. It was not a position I wanted, but I honestly thought that it would just be for a time, until... well, y'know.

 

I suppose thinking about it now, I could have hung on, told him I would wait for him to sort all his issues out... but I honestly couldn't take it any more - the stress was too high, the extreme emotions too much. It was also surprising how the longer it went on, the more guilt I felt towards his W, especially considering I had none at the start. I guess I was compartmentalising and minimising myself.

 

So, I think that there will always be some sort of 'end game', though it is subject to change... as human nature will always be...

[OWoman]

I personally, would not engage into entertaining an A. I refuse to deal with drama, lies, story telling, calculating, hiding and part-time attention. These are all essential to it and are also all the signs to let me know that it will not end well for me. Saves me crying over spilled milk, at the end.

 

Drama, lies, story-telling, calculating, hiding and part-time attention are NOT essential to an A. I've had several As and I've never had any of those to deal with. You get what you're prepared to settle for.

 

Many BSs have to deal with that list, as do some WSs and some OWs - but others (of all groups) refuse to deal with those, so don't, and don't have to.

[OWoman]

What are your thoughts?

 

Initially, my "end game" was - some light fun, when I got bored, I'd move on.

 

During the course of the A, things changed, and we had The Talk, and reviewed our plans and expectations. "End game" changed, and became "happy ever after".

 

And that's what we've got.

[skywriter]

I suppose that rarely if ever people post about the fact that they were in an A and eventually left their marriage to marry the OP. It happens though.

 

One of my dearest friends had an A. She was married and so was her AP. They both left their marriages, married one another and have been married for 15 yrs now and have children together.

 

I'm not implying that it's necessarily ok. Just pointing out that people aren't always eager to share these stories, for various reasons. It's not something that they would be proud to talk about.

[In_Repair]

Drama, lies, story-telling, calculating, hiding and part-time attention are NOT essential to an A. I've had several As and I've never had any of those to deal with. You get what you're prepared to settle for.

 

Many BSs have to deal with that list, as do some WSs and some OWs - but others (of all groups) refuse to deal with those, so don't, and don't have to.

 

You might not tolerate them doing it to you, but you are still "putting up with it" when you watch them do it to someone else. Otherwise, without the lies and hiding, where is the affair? If everyone involved was being truthful and open with everyone else, then how could an affair exist?

[Mimolicious]

Drama, lies, story-telling, calculating, hiding and part-time attention are NOT essential to an A. I've had several As and I've never had any of those to deal with. You get what you're prepared to settle for.

 

Many BSs have to deal with that list, as do some WSs and some OWs - but others (of all groups) refuse to deal with those, so don't, and don't have to.

 

Please delight me here.

 

Any or all of what I mentioned take place in A's. To say that in your A's you never told a lie, had to calculate your outtings, hide some facts, etc is very abnomal, OWoman.

 

My real question to you is, (because I really don't know you story) what role did you play in your A's? I can't see you being a MW, leading A's left and right and keeping it 100 at all times...

That would be called an "opened relationship" where you are entitled to come and go and do whoever, yet not have to answer or care for details.

[woinlove]

You might not tolerate them doing it to you, but you are still "putting up with it" when you watch them do it to someone else. Otherwise, without the lies and hiding, where is the affair? If everyone involved was being truthful and open with everyone else, then how could an affair exist?

 

Exactly. I'm curious how one can have an affair with a married person and not have lies, hiding and part-time attention. That is, assuming the spouse doesn't happen to be brain dead and on life support in a hospital throughout the affair.

 

Also, having a relationship with someone in an open marriage typically doesn't involve lying or hiding. But they also don't usually call their other relationships affairs - they simply call them relationships, or sometimes, secondary relationships. Still, even then, attention is usually shared between the various partners.

[Gfkr2]

Exactly. I'm curious how one can have an affair with a married person and not have lies, hiding and part-time attention. That is, assuming the spouse doesn't happen to be brain dead and on life support in a hospital throughout the affair.

 

Also, having a relationship with someone in an open marriage typically doesn't involve lying or hiding. But they also don't usually call their other relationships affairs - they simply call them relationships, or sometimes, secondary relationships. Still, even then, attention is usually shared between the various partners.

 

That's exactly why the Cheaters secret R has cracks and more often than not collapses sooner or later. It was a R at it's very core based on untruthfulness and decption, trying to keep the BS in the dark. There are 1000's of lies necessary to protect their secreacy from the BS. Tell me how these 1000 lies at the foundation of an A morphs into a healthy and open relationship?

[Mimolicious]

If in fact, OWoman has practiced what she is preaching, scratch-free... J.K. Rolling and her Harry Potter saga is going to look like a mustard seed in sales. OWoman, write a manual on how this is achievable. You will be banking it in no time...

[TOWinNYC]

That's exactly why the Cheaters secret R has cracks and more often than not collapses sooner or later. It was a R at it's very core based on untruthfulness and decption, trying to keep the BS in the dark. There are 1000's of lies necessary to protect their secreacy from the BS. Tell me how these 1000 lies at the foundation of an A morphs into a healthy and open relationship?

 

Because the the lies are at the foundation of the WS and BS's relationship not necessarily between the WS and AP.

 

Now before I get skewered, notice I did not say this is the case between ALL WS/APs - but I believe the nature of A makes my first statement 100% true (to put it simply, the WS always lies to the BS in an A - but there is a "possibilty" that s/he is not lying to the AP).

 

Why is it so difficult for people to understand that how a person interacts in one R is different than how they interact in another? It doesn't matter what the configuration is - one could have a more loving relationship with one sibling than another. A less drama-filled relationship with one friend compared to another. One parent vs. another, one coworker vs. another, etc.

 

So why is it so difficult to believe that the R between the WS & AP could be different than the one between the WS and BS? We all get along better with one person than another so isn't it possible that the WS/AP relationship is better than the WS/BS relationship? Of course it is.

 

And in those cases, the two people end up together. End game.

[Gfkr2]

...and one's tendency to Deceive and Lie can be flipped on and off like a light switch. The AP can always blame the BS for bringing out the worst in him or her if all else fails

[woinlove]

TOWinNYC, I think you misinterpret my (and, likely others') comments. I was responding to OWoman's assertion of having affairs without lies, hiding, part-time affection, etc. I was not implying anything about the relationship between the WS and AP. I was making an observation about an A and the interaction of its participants with the rest of the world, particularly with the BS and the children (if they exist and are old enough to be aware of time spent with parents). But, of course, this spills out into relatives, friends, coworkers and anyone who might inform the BS. Consequently, the "hiding" part.

 

Having said that, I think many (maybe most) WS also lie to their AP, but this is not a necessity of the A like lying to the BS is.

[Owl]

 

Why is it so difficult for people to understand that how a person interacts in one R is different than how they interact in another? It doesn't matter what the configuration is - one could have a more loving relationship with one sibling than another. A less drama-filled relationship with one friend compared to another. One parent vs. another, one coworker vs. another, etc.

 

So why is it so difficult to believe that the R between the WS & AP could be different than the one between the WS and BS? We all get along better with one person than another so isn't it possible that the WS/AP relationship is better than the WS/BS relationship? Of course it is.

 

And in those cases, the two people end up together. End game.

 

Why is it so difficult to believe that how he treats one person he claims to love is very likely how he'll treat others?

 

And given all the stories we've seen over and over and over here on LS and other sites...I'd have to say that the "evidence" is strongly in favor of those that take the "if he'll do it with you, he'll do it to you" category.

 

Your viewpoint leaves out one thing...there is one common denominator between the two relationships..............the WS.

 

Quite often, the "flaw" that exists in the marital relationship is specifically a flaw within the person who cheats...often, it's actually an indicator of aspects of their personality. The very FACT that they cheated makes it likely that they've got issues within themselves that they need to deal with.

 

And when they start a new relationship...they carry that same flaw with them into that relationship as well.

 

Sure, it's possible that the new relationship is better. Personally, I don't find it likely for the reasons I've stated...but anything is possible, theoretically.

[califnan]

I suppose that rarely if ever people post about the fact that they were in an A and eventually left their marriage to marry the OP. It happens though.

 

One of my dearest friends had an A. She was married and so was her AP. They both left their marriages, married one another and have been married for 15 yrs now and have children together.

 

I'm not implying that it's necessarily ok. Just pointing out that people aren't always eager to share these stories, for various reasons. It's not something that they would be proud to talk about.

 

--------------------

 

I agree, should not feel proud.. I don't see the acomplishment.

[Mimolicious]

Because the the lies are at the foundation of the WS and BS's relationship not necessarily between the WS and AP.

 

Now before I get skewered, notice I did not say this is the case between ALL WS/APs - but I believe the nature of A makes my first statement 100% true (to put it simply, the WS always lies to the BS in an A - but there is a "possibilty" that s/he is not lying to the AP).

 

Why is it so difficult for people to understand that how a person interacts in one R is different than how they interact in another? It doesn't matter what the configuration is - one could have a more loving relationship with one sibling than another. A less drama-filled relationship with one friend compared to another. One parent vs. another, one coworker vs. another, etc.

 

So why is it so difficult to believe that the R between the WS & AP could be different than the one between the WS and BS? We all get along better with one person than another so isn't it possible that the WS/AP relationship is better than the WS/BS relationship? Of course it is.

 

And in those cases, the two people end up together. End game.

 

You know that every situation has different sides to them, you know this, right?

 

For the most part and unless you met a MM/MW who lies and says that they are single, it is basic that the AP would know the "truth". So yes, it is different than the BS/WS. I can't imagine a WS walking in through the door and telling his BS what they were just doing with their AP. Yet, a WS can walk in the door of a AP and tell them how they just came back from vacation with their BS and kids.

 

The 'truth" can also be in a "nut shell". You know what you know and don't know what you don't know. The absolute truth lays on the conscience of the person that is holding it. Does it really relate to how people are "interacting" with one another? Or does it have to do with what your "role" is in the R? You can get along fantastic with one person but they may not be suitable for frankness due to who they play in your life.

 

My mother and I are bff's but she is not the most appointed person for me to ditch out my dirt to based on the level of respect. Does that mean that I don't get along with her?

 

Also,one R is the core center of the planet. What plays key factor in yours may not be even existent in another.

 

I don't see where this comment is coming from or heading though... since that was not that we were talking about.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Mimolicious

[lolalove]

Scary, isn't it?

 

I no longer believe in marriage. Over 50% of them end in divorce, and how many of the other half are truly happy/monogamous? Few, I would bet.

 

 

It's sad because so many people are willing to get married but are not willing to do what it takes to stay married.

[woinlove]

Because the the lies are at the foundation of the WS and BS's relationship not necessarily between the WS and AP.

 

This doesn't answer Gfkr's question of how an A whose foundation rests on lies morphs into a healthy and open relationship - not only with each other, but with their friends and family. In another thread, the former MM is now divorced and talking marriage with his (former) AP, who spends time with his children but they don't know the two are even dating, never mind talking marriage. That is an example of how an A based on lies that are not between the AP and WS but between these 2 are the rest of the world, can lead to continuing lies and "hiding" even after divorce.

 

I believe an A can morph into a healthy and open relationship. Difficult and rare, but not impossible. However, no one has addressed how this happens. Does that mean one is completely honest with the BS or is the morphing usually done once this tie is completely cut? It would seem to require honesty with any children affected.

[Mimolicious]

Why is it so difficult to believe that how he treats one person he claims to love is very likely how he'll treat others?

 

And given all the stories we've seen over and over and over here on LS and other sites...I'd have to say that the "evidence" is strongly in favor of those that take the "if he'll do it with you, he'll do it to you" category.

 

Your viewpoint leaves out one thing...there is one common denominator between the two relationships..............the WS.

 

Quite often, the "flaw" that exists in the marital relationship is specifically a flaw within the person who cheats...often, it's actually an indicator of aspects of their personality. The very FACT that they cheated makes it likely that they've got issues within themselves that they need to deal with.

 

And when they start a new relationship...they carry that same flaw with them into that relationship as well.

 

Sure, it's possible that the new relationship is better. Personally, I don't find it likely for the reasons I've stated...but anything is possible, theoretically.

 

In defense of TNYC, she seems to have one of those one-of-a-kind situations. Where her MM is someone from her past, they reunited but now he is M. Correct? I can see the connection, I can see where she is coming from. It may be the case that her MM's nature is not as the average cake eater and may not continue the cycle once he is no longer in his M and in an exclusive R with her. Who knows...

[wheelwright]

I remember starting my A with apprehension. I fought it for about a year and a half as he pursued me relentlessly. One day I just threw my cares into the wind.

 

So unlike me.

 

In that moment, I had made a contract with myself that no matter how badly it ended, no matter how shocked or surprised I'd be should it end, I deserved it because I was gambling with an unknown entity.

 

On D-day #2 I faced that shock. He'd said he would fess up if confronted and he didn't. Years of trust went right down the drain.

 

But you are right, I deserved it on account of that contract I made with the unknown way back when.

 

But it goes much deeper than being selfish, near-sighted, and delusional. I will accept the selfish part and even the delusional part but not the near-sighted part. I always knew I took a risk and knew the outcome could possibly be bad, and it was.

 

The selfish part was...lol...for me. I was pretty much selfLESS in my M and always put my exH first, so much so that I walked on eggshells most of the time. I won't bore you with all the many ways I tried to get my exH to love me, get us in MC, etc., etc., you can read my early threads and posts for that. But when all else failed, and Tall Drink of Water came in, the RISK became worth it to me. I even allowed the delusional to take place because I felt I NEEDED it. People don't accept these conditions unless their life is unsatisfactory. OK, that sounds cold. Unless their life is empty, sad, depressing, insecure, etc. THAT is when we take on risks and step outside of ourselves.

 

I'm not saying there aren't those who just want a bigger **** or lots of variety but I don't think most APs are like that. I think most APs, especially those stuck in sad Ms, are in it for the beautiful distraction, love, and companionship an A can bring.

 

So go ahead and minimize the intelligence of the AP if you wish, but oftentimes they are not the mindless wandering souls you think they are. Oftentimes they are hurting very deeply and only turn to a different kind of R when the risk outweighs facing the bleakness in their life. They know what they're doing, even if the outcome wasn't what they wanted.

 

What a beautiful, humane post. I can relate to it well.

[HappyAtLast]

Why is it so difficult to believe that how he treats one person he claims to love is very likely how he'll treat others?

 

And given all the stories we've seen over and over and over here on LS and other sites...I'd have to say that the "evidence" is strongly in favor of those that take the "if he'll do it with you, he'll do it to you" category.

 

 

I realize that I am not around here much, but I have not seen many folks on here who have married their affair partners and then gone to cheat on them. Maybe they are there and I have just not taken notice of them?

[HappyAtLast]

--------------------

 

I agree, should not feel proud.. I don't see the acomplishment.

 

Any long term marriage that is a happy one is something of which to be proud. I am not proud of the circumstances under which my marriage began, but I have long ago made peace with myself and my Lord. I AM extremely proud of my marriage and the way that we have both conducted ourselves throughout.

[HappyAtLast]

I believe an A can morph into a healthy and open relationship. Difficult and rare, but not impossible. However, no one has addressed how this happens. Does that mean one is completely honest with the BS or is the morphing usually done once this tie is completely cut? It would seem to require honesty with any children affected.

 

A healthy and open relationship takes work. Cultivating a long term relationship between former affair partners is no different than the new relationship that needs to be cultivated between a betrayed spouse and the wandering spouse.

 

The new relationship has absolutely nothing to do with the betrayed spouse. I am unsure as to what morphing you are referring to? The morphing of a relationship from an affair to an open one?

[sadintexas]

There's one here or there that doesn't end up that way . . . Buuuuut . . . I think in 99% of cases, the WS doesn't leave, and the A was always the "end game."

 

Here's what amazes me - - - with divorce rates skyrocketting - - - it almost seems like the ONLY ones who *aren't* divorcing are the ones in a affair . . . They always turn up back home with the BS like a bad penny - IF the BS will let them. Really makes me wonder about some things.

 

Exactly. Looking at it logically, people D every day. When AP give MP whatever it is they're seeking, the MP has no motivation to ever leave or fix the M. The ones who cheat are the ones that rarely leave because they have the best of both worlds. They don't have to suffer through a D and they don't have to suffer through lonliness, working on the M, WORKING ON THEMSELVES or any of the things they would be faced with were they not participating in an A.

 

It's irony at it's finest IMO. The OP wants the MP to leave so bad, but yet by their own actions (having the A) they almost assure the outcome is that they won't have the MP in an open relationship.

 

I'd bet, like myself, almost every person getting involved in an A (where "love" is the motive on the AP's part) believes that their story is different...their relationship with the MP is different. The end game in their minds is to eventually be together. That's why so many AP's make or buy into the MP's excuses like when the child is a little older, when they're in better financial positions, etc., to justify staying in the A. Because that still plays into their end game. Otherwise, they have to face the fact that it is what it is, an A...nothing more, nothing less. The real end game is that they walk away with nothing but heartache but it takes time for AP's to see that's the reality of the situation.

 

If more AP's would take a stand and stop buying into these excuses, more might actually get what they want in the long run. But the longer they stay in the A, the longer the MP stays in the M.

[HappyAtLast]

If more AP's would take a stand and stop buying into these excuses, more might actually get what they want in the long run. But the longer they stay in the A, the longer the MP stays in the M.

 

Very astute post. This is why I content that the other person is truly the one with whom the power lies.

[Owl]

I realize that I am not around here much, but I have not seen many folks on here who have married their affair partners and then gone to cheat on them. Maybe they are there and I have just not taken notice of them?

 

Not too many here...but there have been a few over the years I've been here.

 

What I HAVE seen a lot of here and on other sites is the discovery of an OOW.

 

The OW finds out he's got ANOTHER OW...or a series of them. Or she gets dumped because he moves on to someone else.

 

Not all that uncommon...not quite as common as him NOT leaving the wife/family, but still common enough to remember here.