A woman's non physical attractive traits.

[alyssatranswarrior]

You do NOT have to act like a man! XD

 

You have to be an assertive female! That is all...you don't have to "fake" manly traits or mirror the behavior of a masculine figure, you just have to be an assertive female. You are propagating a negative view on the female gender stating "I need to act like a man to have a career"

 

Even if you believe its a true statement through cynicism of experience, you shouldn't say it

 

Fact of the matter is, the more women go "its a mans world" the more it will be a mans world because you yourselves are giving them NAME power (even though its not actually been a "mans" world for over 20 years, some might say 40) - and the more females say "you gotta be a man to have power, women don't have equality" the longer it will remain so.

 

Snap out of it This isn't the titanic era where rose is listening to her mother say "but the purpose of university is to find a suitable husband, rose has already done that! *hahaha chuckle chuckle*".... know what im sayin?

[Sphere]

How exactly does a woman make you "Feel like a man?"

 

From my own perspective? A woman simply lets be a man and asks me not to change, she doesn't force through a feminist agenda to try and turn me into anything other than what nature intended. I want a woman who will accept that I have a backbone and will stand up for myself and her if needs be, I want to be depended on. I want a woman who will accept my ambitions and not try and alter them and I want a woman who will not force me to abandon my assertiveness. A woman makes a man feel like a man when she feels like a woman and has no need to think and behave in anything other than the way mother nature intended.

[SassyKitten]

From my own perspective? A woman simply lets be a man and asks me not to change, she doesn't force through a feminist agenda to try and turn me into anything other than what nature intended. I want a woman who will accept that I have a backbone and will stand up for myself and her if needs be, I want to be depended on. I want a woman who will accept my ambitions and not try and alter them and I want a woman who will not force me to abandon my assertiveness. A woman makes a man feel like a man when she feels like a woman and has no need to think and behave in anything other than the way mother nature intended.

 

I wouldn't really call that making you feel like a man, I would call that accepting who you are, having your back, and cheering you on to be the best possible person you can be. Which is exactly how I expect any man I'm with to treat me.

 

And if mother nature didn't intend for me to be an accountant then I would have sucked in my math and business classes!

[SassyKitten]

You do NOT have to act like a man! XD

 

You have to be an assertive female! That is all...you don't have to "fake" manly traits or mirror the behavior of a masculine figure, you just have to be an assertive female. You are propagating a negative view on the female gender stating "I need to act like a man to have a career"

 

Even if you believe its a true statement through cynicism of experience, you shouldn't say it

 

Fact of the matter is, the more women go "its a mans world" the more it will be a mans world because you yourselves are giving them NAME power (even though its not actually been a "mans" world for over 20 years, some might say 40) - and the more females say "you gotta be a man to have power, women don't have equality" the longer it will remain so.

 

Snap out of it This isn't the titanic era where rose is listening to her mother say "but the purpose of university is to find a suitable husband, rose has already done that! *hahaha chuckle chuckle*".... know what im sayin?

 

Better way of saying it probably would have been behave more in the way that has been acceptable for men to for ages, especially where assertiveness is concerned!

 

And so glad it's no longer the Titanic era.

[Sphere]

I wouldn't really call that making you feel like a man, I would call that accepting who you are, having your back, and cheering you on to be the best possible person you can be. Which is exactly how I expect any man I'm with to treat me.

 

And if mother nature didn't intend for me to be an accountant then I would have sucked in my math and business classes!

 

I forgot to mention that a woman also makes a man feel like a man when she doesn't try and prevent him from being at one with his sexuality.

 

I was checking out a woman once and she took exception, she called me a pervert to which I laughed it off. I simply said to her "if you wish to be a sexually repressed lemon, that is of course your prerogative, but nature intended a man and a woman to be at peace with their sexuality, men and women were never designed to be friends, they were designed to be mates, to rear children and keep their family lines and the human race alive".

 

She then asked for an apology, but she never got one, I simply asked her why she felt the need of an apology? She couldn't answer my question and I politely went about my day. You see this is what society has become like, a man check outs a nice woman which is perfectly natural and someone takes an exception to it.

 

If you take a man from a hundred years ago and compare him to a man from three hundred years ago, they'll have a lot of similiarities. Yet, if you compare a man from 2010 to man of 1910 and to a man of 1610, then the man of 2010 is virtually an alien and not really much of a man at all.

 

Long straightend hair, make up, nail varnish and skinny jeans? That's what I see men wearing around my high street and it disgusts me to see how feminized men have become and how masculine women have become. It defies the laws of nature, it's a twisted Political agenda created by Rosseau during the Age of the Enlightenment.

 

Gender roles of five hundred years ago were not designed by men to oppress women, they were designed as a key to survival, both had difficult jobs to do, but both did them together and worked as a unit for a common bond. The man would be risking his health and life in treacherous conditions and the woman would be at home slaving away, yet the divorce rate was virtually non-existent in those days. Marriage meant something, both genders had a common role in society. Laws made society, society didn't make laws. This oppression you speak of is a figment of your imagination.

 

Compare the world today and compare it three hundred years ago and the world of date is more oppressive and more immoral than that world, I can assure you of that.

[Untouchable_Fire]

I wonder if this has something to do with the male tendency to compartmentalize. Some (not all guys) will place a girlfriend in a small box in terms of needs she meets. She provides sex, nurturing, validation, something nice to look at and pleasant company, but that's it. Intellectual connection, good conversation and shared sense of humor belong in a separate box. On the other hand most women want a total connection with a partner that isn't limited to a few needs. That's why they're less willing to compromise on intelligence.

 

No... this is all wrong. It's not about compartmentalizing. I thought you said you understand how people tick? You should already know the answer to this... it isn't rocket science.

 

Think of it like this. Why is it that men don't tend to evaluate a woman based on how much money she makes, yet women want guys that have wealth and status?

 

Just based on a lot of the responses I get the vibe for so many men the woman is really about validating who he is and not being too uppity.

Trick to attracting a man: Nod, laugh a lot, don't say much and look pretty.

 

No.. not at all. Most mentally healthy men do not need female validation.

 

I've noticed that too, although it's been a bit more glaringly obvious to me in the sense that many men seem to view "good in bed" and "good mother" as mutually exclusive. "Beautiful" and "intelligent" to a lesser extent. But a lot of men definitely seem to view "intelligent" and "kind" as mutually exclusive.

 

Your referencing the madonna-whore complex. That is fairly rare. Most men actively seek a woman who is both a good mother and a "freak in the sheets".

 

How exactly does a woman make you "Feel like a man?"

 

Every guy has something a little different. But let me give you an idea. When I'm at work I am powerful and in control. If I come home to being treated like a servant with nagging and complaints... It's going to make me angry.

 

I wouldn't really call that making you feel like a man, I would call that accepting who you are, having your back, and cheering you on to be the best possible person you can be. Which is exactly how I expect any man I'm with to treat me.

And if mother nature didn't intend for me to be an accountant then I would have sucked in my math and business classes!

 

I would say most guys also have a strong desire to be admired in some way.

[shadowplay]

 

 

 

No.. not at all. Most mentally healthy men do not need female validation.

 

 

 

I would say most guys also have a strong desire to be admired in some way.

 

Lol. You just said most men aren't mentally healthy. Good to know.

 

----------

[Sphere]

All men are born to lead, a real man leads by example. He sets the boundaries, he sets the rules and he builds his own world in which he invites a woman into, he then takes a woman on a journey throughout his world, it just depends entirely if it is a world she wants to be in or not. Each man's world is different, but remember one thing, each man unless he is a nice guy will want to be a leader of his own world.

[shadowplay]

All men are born to lead, a real man leads by example. He sets the boundaries, he sets the rules and he builds his own world in which he invites a woman into, he then takes a woman on a journey throughout his world, it just depends entirely if it is a world she wants to be in or not. Each man's world is different, but remember one thing, each man unless he is a nice guy will want to be a leader of his own world.

 

And so will a woman.

[SassyKitten]

I forgot to mention that a woman also makes a man feel like a man when she doesn't try and prevent him from being at one with his sexuality.

 

I was checking out a woman once and she took exception, she called me a pervert to which I laughed it off. I simply said to her "if you wish to be a sexually repressed lemon, that is of course your prerogative, but nature intended a man and a woman to be at peace with their sexuality, men and women were never designed to be friends, they were designed to be mates, to rear children and keep their family lines and the human race alive".

 

She then asked for an apology, but she never got one, I simply asked her why she felt the need of an apology? She couldn't answer my question and I politely went about my day. You see this is what society has become like, a man check outs a nice woman which is perfectly natural and someone takes an exception to it.

 

If you take a man from a hundred years ago and compare him to a man from three hundred years ago, they'll have a lot of similiarities. Yet, if you compare a man from 2010 to man of 1910 and to a man of 1610, then the man of 2010 is virtually an alien and not really much of a man at all.

 

Long straightend hair, make up, nail varnish and skinny jeans? That's what I see men wearing around my high street and it disgusts me to see how feminized men have become and how masculine women have become. It defies the laws of nature, it's a twisted Political agenda created by Rosseau during the Age of the Enlightenment.

 

Gender roles of five hundred years ago were not designed by men to oppress women, they were designed as a key to survival, both had difficult jobs to do, but both did them together and worked as a unit for a common bond. The man would be risking his health and life in treacherous conditions and the woman would be at home slaving away, yet the divorce rate was virtually non-existent in those days. Marriage meant something, both genders had a common role in society. Laws made society, society didn't make laws. This oppression you speak of is a figment of your imagination.

 

Compare the world today and compare it three hundred years ago and the world of date is more oppressive and more immoral than that world, I can assure you of that.

 

I disagree. And more immoral today when only recently it's actually possible for a man to be prosecuted for rape???? Please.

 

Divorce was virtually non-existant back in the day because it was taboo. In fact, it was only in the last 40 years that a married couple would be allowed to divorce without giving a reason such as adultery or abuse. And the divorce rate was sky-high in the 1960s because women realized they didn't have to be in these marriages where they were basically an unpaid domestic/sex servant anymore.

 

The only men I have seen with long straightened hair, make up, skinny jeans, etc. are obviously gay once I've talked to them for more than a few seconds. But still, society seems to obsess over some beauty standard for women that requires wasting time that could be otherwise spent doing something more productive. Don't get me wrong, I like making an effort and wearing heels when it's a special occasion, but I don't feel the need to spend half an hour getting ready just to go buy groceries. And I get hit on my men more when I'm im my low-maintenance look than I do when I'm in my high-maintenance one.

 

When it comes to men "being at one with their sexuality", to me that suggests the sexuality that has long been promoted by institutions such as Playboy. And it amazes me how men get defensive that they aren't entitled to my pussy just because they've taken me out on one date. And also, thinking back to the partners I have had, less than 1 in 4 have seemed to care about whether I have an orgasm or not. If this is them being "at one with their sexuality", it's not a healthy way. Many women will lie back and fool themselves into thinking they enjoy it, but not me.

 

To all the men out there who are getting defensive because the playing field is levelling out, get over it. You owe it to yourselves, your partners, and any daughters you may have one day.

[SassyKitten]

All men are born to lead, a real man leads by example. He sets the boundaries, he sets the rules and he builds his own world in which he invites a woman into, he then takes a woman on a journey throughout his world, it just depends entirely if it is a world she wants to be in or not. Each man's world is different, but remember one thing, each man unless he is a nice guy will want to be a leader of his own world.

 

Men and women were built to lead the family together. But obviously, some men don't like to share, and if a woman is trying to share, she's accused of being a nag.

 

Sad.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Lol. You just said most men aren't mentally healthy. Good to know.

 

----------

 

Don't be silly. Wanting to be admired is very different from external validation.

 

I believe that I worthy of someone admiring me. I don't need a woman to validate that. Therefore I am not going to be happy dating a woman who's view of me is that much different from my own.

 

Does that make sense?

[Sphere]

Lol. You just said most men aren't mentally healthy. Good to know.

 

Nice guys and jerks need to be validated by a woman. A nice guy will try and find his own validation through getting a girlfriend. His happiness depends on him getting a girlfriend, the same way a jerk gets his validation through the amount of notches on his bed post. He'll boast about how he made her orgasm four times and how she said he was the best lay ever.

 

A great guy doesn't need validation from women. He knows he is a great catch and a woman's compliments only prove him right. If a woman calls me handsome, it doesn't phase me at all because I know I'm handsome. If a woman says I am in great shape, I smile because I know I'm in great shape.

 

Being a man is not having to prove yourself to anyone and knowing exactly what you are. When I pump weights at gym and the lad next to me is pumping 10kg more than me and he is thinking "that guy is a wimp, I'm better than him", I'm thinking "I really could use an ice cold drink of water now". You won't see me drop my weights and pick up 20KG more to try and prove myself to this man and I don't do that with women.

 

My mates will often have pulling contest, I never participate because I don't go out looking to pull. To me scoring a woman or several isn't a mark of success. So, I have no need to go around gaming any and every chick I see. I'm a man of morals and ethics, I don't compromise on these either, another thing that feminist will try and get a man to alter, but real men do not give a hoot.

[brainygirl]

This thread was cool, but its been taken over by a bunch of anti-feminist with their man-panties in a wad. They think women should be sexually available with minimal effort. Laugh at all their jokes, let them call all the shots, and never ever be better than they are at anything.

 

Get a life guys.

 

I have a BRAIN and a VAGINA.

 

I have a job and a life and interests of my own.

 

And if dating you means giving up or minimizing any of those, then go away and find som dumb, gullible bimbo who wants nothing more than to spend endless hours making sure he r appearance is acceptable to you.

[SassyKitten]

Nice guys and jerks need to be validated by a woman. A nice guy will try and find his own validation through getting a girlfriend. His happiness depends on him getting a girlfriend, the same way a jerk gets his validation through the amount of notches on his bed post. He'll boast about how he made her orgasm four times and how she said he was the best lay ever.

 

A great guy doesn't need validation from women. He knows he is a great catch and a woman's compliments only prove him right. If a woman calls me handsome, it doesn't phase me at all because I know I'm handsome. If a woman says I am in great shape, I smile because I know I'm in great shape.

 

Being a man is not having to prove yourself to anyone and knowing exactly what you are. When I pump weights at gym and the lad next to me is pumping 10kg more than me and he is thinking "that guy is a wimp, I'm better than him", I'm thinking "I really could use an ice cold drink of water now". You won't see me drop my weights and pick up 20KG more to try and prove myself to this man and I don't do that with women.

 

My mates will often have pulling contest, I never participate because I don't go out looking to pull. To me scoring a woman or several isn't a mark of success. So, I have no need to go around gaming any and every chick I see. I'm a man of morals and ethics, I don't compromise on these either, another thing that feminist will try and get a man to alter, but real men do not give a hoot.

 

Is that only a man's world? Really? Because I also expect admiration from any man I'm with. And in a healthy relationship, admiration goes both ways.

 

Also, a woman can be a feminist without trying to get a man to compromise his morals. If 2 people are a good match, their morals will agree with each other.

 

I'm just really feeling like what so many men are after is validation and admiration via a woman being a pretty little quiet thing who hangs off his arm and keeps her mouth shut. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Untouchable_Fire]

When it comes to men "being at one with their sexuality", to me that suggests the sexuality that has long been promoted by institutions such as Playboy. And it amazes me how men get defensive that they aren't entitled to my pussy just because they've taken me out on one date. And also, thinking back to the partners I have had, less than 1 in 4 have seemed to care about whether I have an orgasm or not. If this is them being "at one with their sexuality", it's not a healthy way. Many women will lie back and fool themselves into thinking they enjoy it, but not me.

To all the men out there who are getting defensive because the playing field is levelling out, get over it. You owe it to yourselves, your partners, and any daughters you may have one day.

 

I underlined this because it PROVES to me that your attracted to and dating guys that don't give a f*** about you. That is absolutely NOT representative of the average male.

 

Why don't you try dating guys that care about you. It isn't hard to tell before you jump in the sack with them.

[SassyKitten]

I underlined this because it PROVES to me that your attracted to and dating guys that don't give a f*** about you. That is absolutely NOT representative of the average male.

 

Why don't you try dating guys that care about you. It isn't hard to tell before you jump in the sack with them.

 

Well, unfortunately that has been the men I've dated, and I'm learning very quickly that men like this are among the first to approach me. And maybe because they are looking for some airhead to be their arm candy, and gravely disappointed when they realize that's not what I am.

 

Of course I am learning, and not dating untill I know for sure how to tell if a man is nice or not.

[Sphere]

 

When it comes to men "being at one with their sexuality", to me that suggests the sexuality that has long been promoted by institutions such as Playboy. And it amazes me how men get defensive that they aren't entitled to my pussy just because they've taken me out on one date.

 

You mistake me.

 

A lot of men repress their sexuality because of this kind of attitude. If I'm interested in a girl, I'll make sure she knows that I'm sexually interested in her and I'll do it subtley, through kino and other such things.

 

I do not expect or want a woman who is going to drop her draws on the first date, because I'm not a PUA and I'm not a jerk looking to add notches to his bed post and of course being at one with your sexuality goes far deeper than just having sex. It's about a man embracing his masculinity and all that the makes man totally different from a female. I never try and find the similarities between myself and a female, I'm always looking for a feminine female, someone totally different from myself and I'm masculine because I've embraced my sexuality.

[Shakz]

I have a BRAIN and a VAGINA.

 

I'll see your vagina and raise you one penis!

[SassyKitten]

You mistake me.

 

A lot of men repress their sexuality because of this kind of attitude. If I'm interested in a girl, I'll make sure she knows that I'm sexually interested in her and I'll do it subtley, through kino and other such things.

 

I do not expect or want a woman who is going to drop her draws on the first date, because I'm not a PUA and I'm not a jerk looking to add notches to his bed post and of course being at one with your sexuality goes far deeper than just having sex. It's about a man embracing his masculinity and all that the makes man totally different from a female. I never try and find the similarities between myself and a female, I'm always looking for a feminine female, someone totally different from myself and I'm masculine because I've embraced my sexuality.

 

Ok, a few questions on that note:

 

-You say you often date 2 women at a time, when you do have sex with them have you had the exclusivity talk? Or do they at least know that you are seeing other women so they know what they're getting into?

-Is her orgasm important to you?

-Is it offputting to you if a woman takes control in the bedroom?

-Otherwise, what is your definition of embracing masculinity?

-Does feminine = submissive?

[brainygirl]

I'll see your vagina and raise you one penis!

 

lol my poorly articulated point was if you want to get with me, you gotta appreciate both.

[Sphere]

Is that only a man's world? Really? Because I also expect admiration from any man I'm with. And in a healthy relationship, admiration goes both ways.

 

Also, a woman can be a feminist without trying to get a man to compromise his morals. If 2 people are a good match, their morals will agree with each other.

 

I'm just really feeling like what so many men are after is validation and admiration via a woman being a pretty little quiet thing who hangs off his arm and keeps her mouth shut. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I will give a woman admiration when it is warranted and when she has earned it from me, I expect to be treated the same way in return. If a woman thinks I'm going to sit under a tree and write her love poems every morning before bringing her breakfast in bed then she's in for a rude awakening, as for that is not who I am.

 

I don't want a feminist female, I want a feminine woman, these two are completely different women. Infact the first one isn't even a woman, she is just a Female by genitalia and is a construct of a rotten society. I've just said that I don't want or need validation from a woman or anyone else for that matter. It's not about validation. It is about a woman and man in a relationship playing two different roles that combine them as one, fully functioning team. You cannot have two people being leaders in a relationship, just like you can't have two stay at home parents when there are young mouths to feed and you cannot have two breadwinners when you own your own home.

 

It's about structure, it's about contribution, ultimately it is about love and those who truly love each other will work together for the common good, now if I am out working to feed my family then who is going to look after the home if my wife is also out working? I could hire a Nanny, but then the children suffer as a result. They aren't spending much needed time with their parents.

 

It's not me being discriminatory against women, nor is it me being old fashioned, but I believe a lot of divorces and failed marriages these days wouldn't happen if there was proper structures and roles given within the relationship, if two people were pulling in the same direction things would function a lot better.

 

Of course feminists want their cake and to eat it too, so what can you do?

[Untouchable_Fire]

Well, unfortunately that has been the men I've dated, and I'm learning very quickly that men like this are among the first to approach me. And maybe because they are looking for some airhead to be their arm candy, and gravely disappointed when they realize that's not what I am.

Of course I am learning, and not dating untill I know for sure how to tell if a man is nice or not.

 

That's exactly the problem Sassy.

 

I'm going to tell you right now that it's going to be very hard for you to change this, because it will require you to alter what your attracted to.

 

Realize now that any guy who starts to have feelings for you and treats you well is going to seem... less attractive.

[SassyKitten]

I will give a woman admiration when it is warranted and when she has earned it from me, I expect to be treated the same way in return. If a woman thinks I'm going to sit under a tree and write her love poems every morning before bringing her breakfast in bed then she's in for a rude awakening, as for that is not who I am.

 

I don't want a feminist female, I want a feminine woman, these two are completely different women. Infact the first one isn't even a woman, she is just a Female by genitalia and is a construct of a rotten society. I've just said that I don't want or need validation from a woman or anyone else for that matter. It's not about validation. It is about a woman and man in a relationship playing two different roles that combine them as one, fully functioning team. You cannot have two people being leaders in a relationship, just like you can't have two stay at home parents when there are young mouths to feed and you cannot have two breadwinners when you own your own home.

 

It's about structure, it's about contribution, ultimately it is about love and those who truly love each other will work together for the common good, now if I am out working to feed my family then who is going to look after the home if my wife is also out working? I could hire a Nanny, but then the children suffer as a result. They aren't spending much needed time with their parents.

 

It's not me being discriminatory against women, nor is it me being old fashioned, but I believe a lot of divorces and failed marriages these days wouldn't happen if there was proper structures and roles given within the relationship, if two people were pulling in the same direction things would function a lot better.

 

Of course feminists want their cake and to eat it too, so what can you do?

 

I still disagree and will always disagree that there can only be one head of the household. And even if there could, why should it automatically be the man? Because he has a penis? Because that has been the status quo for ages and most people are too weak to question it? When that status quo was the result of most men being physically capable of literally beating women into submission? And besides, there are plenty of businesses out there with 2 owners that thrive, so the same can be said for families.

 

As for when I have kids, I personally like the idea of daycare. It teaches children how to socialize with children from a young age. And it allows both parents to work, giving the kids a great example that no one is exempt from working hard just because of their gender.

 

The only reasons there is more divorce now than there used to be is 1. A woman doesn't need a man for economic survival and 2. It is much more socially acceptable to not have to stay in a marriage where 1 or both people are completely miserable. And I have a feeling that the divorce rate will actually decline once society shifts towards forming partnerships for healthy reasons. This is my gut feeling, we definitely aren't there yet, and we may not even be there in our lifetime.

 

And really, it feels like when a man is saying he wants a "feminine woman" he really means "submissive woman". Is that what you want your daughters to grow up to be?

[brainygirl]

I will give a woman admiration when it is warranted and when she has earned it from me, I expect to be treated the same way in return. If a woman thinks I'm going to sit under a tree and write her love poems every morning before bringing her breakfast in bed then she's in for a rude awakening, as for that is not who I am.

 

I don't want a feminist female, I want a feminine woman, these two are completely different women. Infact the first one isn't even a woman, she is just a Female by genitalia and is a construct of a rotten society. I've just said that I don't want or need validation from a woman or anyone else for that matter. It's not about validation. It is about a woman and man in a relationship playing two different roles that combine them as one, fully functioning team. You cannot have two people being leaders in a relationship, just like you can't have two stay at home parents when there are young mouths to feed and you cannot have two breadwinners when you own your own home.

 

It's about structure, it's about contribution, ultimately it is about love and those who truly love each other will work together for the common good, now if I am out working to feed my family then who is going to look after the home if my wife is also out working? I could hire a Nanny, but then the children suffer as a result. They aren't spending much needed time with their parents.

 

It's not me being discriminatory against women, nor is it me being old fashioned, but I believe a lot of divorces and failed marriages these days wouldn't happen if there was proper structures and roles given within the relationship, if two people were pulling in the same direction things would function a lot better.

 

Of course feminists want their cake and to eat it too, so what can you do?

 

I think your full of crap. Very few families can afford to have only one parent work. And just because one works or earns more does not mean that person gets to come home and declare themselve's done for the day and leave the other parent to cook, clean and ride herd on the kids.

 

Are you really asserting that you wouldn't let your wife work? Are you really asserting that she can't earn more than you do?

 

really?

 

Your attitudes are abotu 40 years out of date and offensive.

 

I don't tend to nag my partners. I am self supporting and intend to stay that way. I may marry a guy who makes twice what I make, but you know what, I may divorce him later. I appreciate the people in my life for who and what they are. I admire men for their character or their humor or their patience or their ability to make me smile. I expect the same admiration.

 

you seem to want a servant to push around.