SassyKitten Posted July 31, 2010 Posted July 31, 2010 I've been very much in reflective mode since my last breakup. And I had a mentality that in hindsight probably completely killed my last relationship. For a bit of background, when I was in school, I was the fat girl who none of the boys liked, was beaten up, and could never get any boy to dance with her. I wanted attention so badly from boys, but felt completely invisible to them. In my 20s, the tables completely turned, but in a completely undesirable way. I can get plenty of attention from men now, but NONE of it seems to be the kind of attention I want! In short, so easy to get a man to want to **** me, but impossible to get a man to fall in love with me. To make matters worse, in my last 2 relationships before my last breakup, I was the other woman without my knowledge. One of them had a girlfriend who was deployed to Japan, and I discovered the truth when I had my suspicions and read his emails while he was out of town. Not only was I the other woman without my knowledge, but he had LOTS of other woman, including a married woman. And before him, the guy who I was with had a pregnant wife he didn't bother telling me about. And the guy with the pregnant wife was the first man I had had sex with in 2 years, making it sting even more. The reason I went off sex for 2 years, despite having an outrageously high libido, was the fact that so many men would pick me up, have sex with me in a way that was completely unpleasant, without going into gory details it was basically like they viewed porn as a how-to manual on how to please a woman, and I had a few times where I wanted to cry. In fact, when I lost my virginity for the first time was the day after my 21st birthday. And this was purely because I was sick of being a virgin, and just gave it away to a guy I met at a bar. Needless to say, I have severe trust issues from all of this. Now, I'm 28, in a year and a half I will be in my 30s. My longest relationship has lasted for 5 months, and no man has ever told me he loves me. I want to find my partner in crime so much right now it hurts. I don't want to "settle down", I want to find a loyal man who will stick my me through the good times and the bad, travel with me, be spontaneous with me, laugh with me, basically share my life with me. I know I am a very good package, if anything it makes me angry when no one sees that! I'm trying to jump back on that saddle after my last breakup, but I can't. I'm hurt, traumatized, and have come to the conclusion that dating is a minefield. When it comes to sex, my rule on that one from now on is no sex untill we've had the exclusivity talk. And soooooo many people keep telling me "M**, just get a **** buddy!!", but the thought of that makes me so nauseous, despite the fact that I have a high libido. I have had way more than enough of that to last me a lifetime, but have no idea what it feels like to make love instead of just screw. I don't want to go through my life feeling like I'm only capable of being someone's screw. And I know I am definitely far from being the fat kid I once was. My avatar is a fairly good indication of what I look like except I'm blonder now, I'm 5'10", 140 pounds, size 6, C-cup, a lot of people tell me I could model. In fact, I often get asked "M**, you're such a gorgeous woman, why can't you find a nice man?" Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!! I don't know what to ask, I really needed to vent.
zengirl Posted July 31, 2010 Posted July 31, 2010 You're the perfect example of how dating is not about beauty (or even beauty + personality) and all about cultural capital, at least at the beginning. (Yeah, I know, that makes you feel better, right? ) I've been very much in reflective mode since my last breakup. And I had a mentality that in hindsight probably completely killed my last relationship. For a bit of background, when I was in school, I was the fat girl who none of the boys liked, was beaten up, and could never get any boy to dance with her. I wanted attention so badly from boys, but felt completely invisible to them. I kind of relate. I was never fat, but I was weird looking until near the end of HS. I did have an awesome HS sweetheart who adored me and was very popular in his own right (People always asked him why he dated me at one point, before I suddenly became what people thought was, "pretty!"). In elementary school, I transferred schools in 3rd grade and until HS was ridiculed pretty badly for awhile (for being skinny, if you can believe it!), partially for my looks (and possibly slight racial issues, though I don't look particularly Asian now) and partially for my parents being divorced. Weird place I grew up in. I was also really, painfully, terribly shy, and I'm sure that contributed to it. But I didn't know anyone except my HS sweetheart would ever think I was pretty for a long time. So, yeah, I really am lucky I had him. In my 20s, the tables completely turned, but in a completely undesirable way. I can get plenty of attention from men now, but NONE of it seems to be the kind of attention I want! In short, so easy to get a man to want to **** me, but impossible to get a man to fall in love with me. Have you fallen in love with yourself? I know that sounds cliche and cheesy, but I think unless we either experience love at a young age (which allows us to see ourselves as lovable) or actively fall in love with ourselves later (same outcome as above), it's harder to fall in love with anyone else and have that be reciprocated. In other words, it's not: Have you learned how to love, but have you learned how to be loved? To make matters worse, in my last 2 relationships before my last breakup, I was the other woman without my knowledge. One of them had a girlfriend who was deployed to Japan, and I discovered the truth when I had my suspicions and read his emails while he was out of town. Not only was I the other woman without my knowledge, but he had LOTS of other woman, including a married woman. And before him, the guy who I was with had a pregnant wife he didn't bother telling me about. And the guy with the pregnant wife was the first man I had had sex with in 2 years, making it sting even more. How did that happen? How did they manage to hide it from you? (Not just practically, but emotionally.) Have you reflected on that and come up with any patterns? The reason I went off sex for 2 years, despite having an outrageously high libido, was the fact that so many men would pick me up, have sex with me in a way that was completely unpleasant, without going into gory details it was basically like they viewed porn as a how-to manual on how to please a woman, and I had a few times where I wanted to cry. In fact, when I lost my virginity for the first time was the day after my 21st birthday. And this was purely because I was sick of being a virgin, and just gave it away to a guy I met at a bar. Yuck. If you were having unpleasant sex, did you mention it while you were in pain? I mean. . . call me crazy, but I'd stop the guy. (Then again, I've always dated someone or known them before sleeping with them. I have no idea about picked-up-at-a-bar sex etiquette, if it exists.) I think people can view sex in plenty of ways that are healthy, but the way you "gave away" your virginity seems a bit. . . hasty. I mean, even if you're not getting to know people and sleeping with whomever "the spirit moves you" in the moment or whatnot, I think that's fine, so long as it is still a joyous experience. Sex should, above all else, be fun. Not like a chore. I'm sure you've since adjusted your view anyway, but just picking up the things I notice here. Needless to say, I have severe trust issues from all of this. Now, I'm 28, in a year and a half I will be in my 30s. My longest relationship has lasted for 5 months, and no man has ever told me he loves me. I want to find my partner in crime so much right now it hurts. I don't want to "settle down", I want to find a loyal man who will stick my me through the good times and the bad, travel with me, be spontaneous with me, laugh with me, basically share my life with me. I know I am a very good package, if anything it makes me angry when no one sees that! You have to get happy on your own first. Are you happy on your own? Also, that's a tall order. A lot of good guys who want to settle down aren't traveling the world. That's just. . .the fact. I meet lots of good guys traveling, but they're traveling because they don't want to settle down. (I meet lots of couples traveling too, but most met back home.) And that, mostly, includes women, too. Men see the stages of their lives in different way than women, in general, I think. So, I'm not saying it's hopeless but to just accept that it may take time to find someone so unique. I'm trying to jump back on that saddle after my last breakup, but I can't. I'm hurt, traumatized, and have come to the conclusion that dating is a minefield. When it comes to sex, my rule on that one from now on is no sex untill we've had the exclusivity talk. And soooooo many people keep telling me "M**, just get a **** buddy!!", but the thought of that makes me so nauseous, despite the fact that I have a high libido. I have had way more than enough of that to last me a lifetime, but have no idea what it feels like to make love instead of just screw. I don't want to go through my life feeling like I'm only capable of being someone's screw. That's always been my rule, excepting one time I consider "casual sex" with a FWB type situation when I was 20 and rather crushed-into-little-pieces by what life had thrown me, thus not suitable to date anyone. Even that FWB situation (still a friend, no benefits whatsoever for years and years now) wasn't great for me, and it wasn't like I wanted more from the guy---I just regret sleeping with someone I had so little core attraction to (he was cute, but not interesting to me) and never formed a real relationship with. Really, IME, sex with someone you love is best, sex with someone you're wildly interested in as a person is a close runner up, and sex with someone you're just attracted to is like McDonalds. Maybe some folks like it, it's cheap and quick, but don't ever try to tell me it's the best quality. Some folks may have their cravings for it, though. I think it's a reasonable rule. I consider myself a pretty sexual person, but I don't have to have sex if all that's available is casual sex. Unlike food, I can wait a bit longer. So, I don't need to have McDonalds quality sex. But it's all about knowing yourself and doing it out of your own values, rather than fear. And I know I am definitely far from being the fat kid I once was. My avatar is a fairly good indication of what I look like except I'm blonder now, I'm 5'10", 140 pounds, size 6, C-cup, a lot of people tell me I could model. In fact, I often get asked "M**, you're such a gorgeous woman, why can't you find a nice man?" Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!! I don't know what to ask, I really needed to vent. I think you need to have a love affair with yourself first, but that's just my trite advice. You seem like a pretty cool chick, to me. The cultural capital comes after that love affair with yourself. Oh, and hang with people in solid relationships! At first, maybe you feel those pangs of jealousy, but get past that and really feel happy for those in great relationships. That helps you build the social capital and assess people and relationships better.
Sabali Posted July 31, 2010 Posted July 31, 2010 (edited) M**, are you very certain that you are not ignoring red flags with your men? Are you not just picking the wrong guys. C'mon, be straight up and really think about it. Are you picking the guys you couldn't get before who were probably wasn't worth getting anyway and now you must have them? How does a woman who look as good as yourself, with decent measurements, and a incredibly high libido not get into long term relationships? M**, you are saying that you have run into all of these situations with these men and being the other woman so many times and yet you saw no red flags? One of your men had several women, peaches! You don't have to be straight up here. All you have to do is reflect on these men. Players rarely are so slick that they do not give adequate clues that they love a whole bunch of women. You can find the right man if you looked in the right places. You can. No need to drive yourself crazy here. High Libido? 5'10? 140lbs? size 6? C-cup? You are in as long as a decent personality comes along with it. Instead of picking the guy at the bar or the guy staring at all of the women breasts, pick the low key guy, laid back fellow. You will be good. Oh, and suppress your libido in the beginning. Don't advertise that first. Edited July 31, 2010 by Sabali
Author SassyKitten Posted July 31, 2010 Author Posted July 31, 2010 Zengirl - I am certainly far from hating myself. I have regrets in life, yes, but on a scale of 1 to 10 I would rate my confidence level a good 12! That said, I am not satisfied with my life, but I'm thrilled with the work I'm doing on it, I just wish it would get there faster! I will have my Bachelor's next year, so I'm out of the career dead end I was in. And I haven't been travelling in ages, which is depressing as I have lived overseas before and really didn't want to come back to Georgia. And actually I hate it in Georgia, I'm good at making friends elsewhere but here, I can count the number of people I've truly related to in the 2 miserable years since I've been here on my fingers. But the good news is I'm flying to Montreal next week!!!! I'm only there a week, but it will be such a good chance to get back into travelling. Then I'm hoping to do my working holiday visa in Ireland once I've finished my degree, then probably stay in Europe for grad school. All of this makes the idea that I want to be married to the man of my dreams right now seem weird to most probably, but I can do all of these things with the right man for me! The way I see it, if you feel like you've lost your freedom because of being with your partner, you're with the wrong partner. The reason I did start the no sex untill the exclusivity talk rule was because of having the experience of being the other woman twice in a row, and that breaking my 2 year long dry spell. But yeah, I am a very unique individual and wouldn't have it any other way. But I get very lonely, and horny, sigh....
zengirl Posted July 31, 2010 Posted July 31, 2010 Zengirl - I am certainly far from hating myself. I have regrets in life, yes, but on a scale of 1 to 10 I would rate my confidence level a good 12! Oh, I never thought you hated yourself! I could tell you didn't from your posts here. Liking yourself and being in love with yourself and your life. . . well, they are different things. Like the difference between seeing a guy as "good on paper" and falling in love with him. I also wasn't saying you weren't in love with yourself. I have no way of knowing. You seem like a healthy, normal, attractive person to me. That said, I am not satisfied with my life, but I'm thrilled with the work I'm doing on it, I just wish it would get there faster! I will have my Bachelor's next year, so I'm out of the career dead end I was in. And I haven't been travelling in ages, which is depressing as I have lived overseas before and really didn't want to come back to Georgia. And actually I hate it in Georgia, I'm good at making friends elsewhere but here, I can count the number of people I've truly related to in the 2 miserable years since I've been here on my fingers. Yeah, I think the stagnancy in your life is a big part of your unhappiness. I don't know how to address that one. I'm not in-love with where I'm moving in the States, but I at least dig it a bit. You seem to really hate your place (I don't know it, but it sounds like I'd hate it, too). That's always hard. Then I'm hoping to do my working holiday visa in Ireland once I've finished my degree, then probably stay in Europe for grad school. All of this makes the idea that I want to be married to the man of my dreams right now seem weird to most probably, but I can do all of these things with the right man for me! The way I see it, if you feel like you've lost your freedom because of being with your partner, you're with the wrong partner. True enough, though it also means waiting for someone who matches the exact specifications. For me, geography isn't such a big thing now that I've got the Masters pretty much finished. I can teach just about anywhere. But geography is a factor for most people---if you're looking for someone who's not just constantly moving, but constantly moving with you, where you have the idea to go or have commitments, that's hard. Especially for a woman (hate to admit it, but more gals will follow a fellow than vice versa; I'm pretty independent, and even I'd be inclined to follow a guy, so long as he was going somewhere I liked, but I'm set up for it pretty well, with my career). I'm not saying that makes any of your choices wrong. I've seen all sorts of things work out. Just enjoy the ride.
Author SassyKitten Posted July 31, 2010 Author Posted July 31, 2010 True, and when it comes to my personality it's probably very offputting to many men that I am the complete antithesis of the submissive cheerleader type. Plus, I have trust issues, and it takes a lot of work on the man's part to put my fears to rest. Ugly reality, but that is how it is. I know not all men are pricks, relationships just have a tendancy to bring out the worst in anyone, male or female. But it is also so horribly discouraging that it seems like the only men who I am capable of attracting are the pricks. One tendancy I know I am guilty of in relationships is not giving the man space, and to me that stems from trust issues. For example, with my last boyfriend(who as far as I know wasn't a cheater), if I hadn't heard from him all day I found myself questioning if that was because he was busy talking to one of his other girlfriends. To me, not staying in regular contact with me or wanting to see me as often as possible is a red flag that I'm not the only woman in his life. I'm still confused about what exactly you mean about falling in love with myself though.
gamma1 Posted July 31, 2010 Posted July 31, 2010 (edited) Instead of picking the guy at the bar or the guy staring at all of the women breasts, pick the low key guy, laid back fellow. You will be good. Oh, and suppress your libido in the beginning. Don't advertise that first. The above is great advice. Keep in mind that the pricks are more likely to approach first. You may have to do some of the legwork to get the low key guy to notice you. True, and when it comes to my personality it's probably very offputting to many men that I am the complete antithesis of the submissive cheerleader type. Plus, I have trust issues, and it takes a lot of work on the man's part to put my fears to rest. Ugly reality, but that is how it is. I know not all men are pricks, relationships just have a tendancy to bring out the worst in anyone, male or female. But it is also so horribly discouraging that it seems like the only men who I am capable of attracting are the pricks. Every man is different and try to treat each like a blank slate. Two men could look almost identical yet have vastly different personalities. One could be an awful jerk and the other could be your dream man. It seems as if somehow you missed signs of major trouble in the past. Clearly some of the exes were withholding information from you. Do you have friends that could help you look for these signs of trouble when you find a new relationship? If a man if evasive about certain information or if he contradicts himself, drop him and find someone new. You shouldn't rush these things either. Resist giving yourself an arbitrary time limit. It may take a few years and you may have to go through some more lousy men, but wouldn't it be worth it rather than settling for someone who is not right for you? You have a lot to offer and you just have to find a man that deserves you. Edited July 31, 2010 by gamma1
zengirl Posted July 31, 2010 Posted July 31, 2010 True, and when it comes to my personality it's probably very offputting to many men that I am the complete antithesis of the submissive cheerleader type. Plus, I have trust issues, and it takes a lot of work on the man's part to put my fears to rest. Ugly reality, but that is how it is. I know trust issues. I've pretty much obliterated mine, and it made my life a lot better. But I don't know if there's any one recipe to get rid of them. But as for submissive types, really, I'm sure there are fellows that like that (but they probably aren't your taste anyway), but they aren't my cuppa, and that's never been an issue for me. Loads of men love confident, sassy, fun, self-sufficient, smart women; they just don't like bossy, domineering, dismissive women who make them feel crappy about themselves (but who likes that? I hate that in a man too!). Then again, I don't live in Georgia. But neither will you, soon! I know not all men are pricks, relationships just have a tendancy to bring out the worst in anyone, male or female. But it is also so horribly discouraging that it seems like the only men who I am capable of attracting are the pricks. I don't think all relationships have a tendency to bring out the worst in people. I mean, I think they do if the people don't have their own crap together---we learn a lot from relationships, but hopefully one of the first things we learn is how to learn to deal with our own crap without dumping it all over other people. But a lot of my relationships have brought out the best in me, and I'd say the same of some of my partners, and they'd agree. I think they bring out lessons, but we can decide if we want our lessons to be critical (messy, dramatic, horrible) or constructive (reflective, life-affirming, positive) by the way we live. That's just my little upbeat take on it though. One tendancy I know I am guilty of in relationships is not giving the man space, and to me that stems from trust issues. For example, with my last boyfriend(who as far as I know wasn't a cheater), if I hadn't heard from him all day I found myself questioning if that was because he was busy talking to one of his other girlfriends. To me, not staying in regular contact with me or wanting to see me as often as possible is a red flag that I'm not the only woman in his life. That's rough. And it's why "red flags" are hard. Because really, for the most part, anyone could be the exception. So far as I know, I've never been cheated on. . . I've been with a lot of fellows who have been, though. In fact, I think every guy I've dated seriously, except my HS sweetheart, had been cheated on at some point prior to me. Some of them had similar trust issues. The only time they were a real issue was if he wasn't admitting that his issues stemmed from another experience that had nothing to do with me. But. . .that's from a woman's perspective. (Who knows how men react to being open and honest about these sorts of feelings?) It was never a problem if, once the relationship was going, they expressed their fears and insecurities and showed reflection on a past experience. Then again, I find honest self-reflection pretty sexy in a guy. I'm weird. Now, I'm wondering why I've always dug guys who were cheated on! I never thought about that before. . . (It might just be that awesome people who don't cheat tend to get cheated on more; since every relationship breaks up over something, and people can rarely be honest and direct with their feelings, so instead they go screw somebody else. I don't know.) I'm still confused about what exactly you mean about falling in love with myself though. It really is hard to explain. Especially if you've never really been in love with anyone. And, really, it's going to sound cheesy and New Age, but here goes: Okay, for me, it happened kind of slowly. I didn't hate myself before -- far from it: I had my insecurities, but I could also tell you why I was awesome and be confident at times. My life wasn't good or bad, really, and, on paper, some parts of it were better than my life is now (some weren't), but it was. . . just limited and kind of miserable in retrospect. Normal-miserable. (Most people I see seem miserable to me and remind me of that state. Maybe that's weird, but it's just how it is.) For me, a large part of it was denying basic parts of myself. I was pursuing a career I liked, but it didn't fulfill all of me. I hadn't traveled. I hadn't delved to deeply into my own spirituality and self, mostly out of fear and a sense of practicality. I was just afraid of things. Even the good things in my life. . . they were dulled. And the bad things, even the insignificant bad things (like minor rejection, stress, etc) were so much bigger. Now, it's reversed, though not as extreme. I feel good things immensely. Not to the point where they're manic, but I just feel. . . comforted most of the time. Content. Because I began to really look at myself and not deny any part of me. I began to reframe my life. It still isn't perfectly where I want it to be, but it's coming along (and at a much faster clip than it was when I was all stuck in the muck). I looked at where I was, but then I looked at who I was. How could I get to the point that expressed who I was? And, then, everything I did resonated with who I was. When everything you're doing -- every word you utter, every action you take -- celebrates who you are, I think that's being in love with yourself. There's room for reflection and change but no self-criticism. We don't criticize those we love! We accept them, we help them. . . but judgment is different with love. Most people are very mean to themselves, even when they like themselves. I know I was. It's in the little things. Like calling your quirks "weird" or "crazy" instead of awesome. I'm not saying I don't ever re-assess and change my behavior, but even when I take mis-steps, I'm very kind to myself now. I celebrate myself for recognizing the mis-step and I feel no regret anymore for my mistakes. It's weird. As I said, most people get by in life without ever falling in love with themselves or with life. They use romantic love as a mirror. Or familial love. They find something as a backbone. For me. . . that worked for awhile, but it was breaking down. I needed something more substantial. Being in love with myself. . . well, it makes every day pretty happy, even when I'm angry, sad, depressed, lonely, bored, etc. I always feel more connected to other people by connecting to myself. It sounds stupid when I type it, but it's the best advice I can give anyone. I guess spiritualists would call it "enlightenment" but I think that's a silly word for it, because it's not about knowing anything or being any better or more spiritual, really. It's about. . . being happier. I'm sure that just sounded like a bad novel in the "Self Help" section. It's hard to put into a few paragraphs on a message board without sounding cheesy.
Author SassyKitten Posted July 31, 2010 Author Posted July 31, 2010 I thought you were in an LDR? Yeah, that ended. He dumped me for his ex, who cheated on him. And he was so cold and unemotional anyway. I was going through some horrible drama in my life halfway through our relationship, and he clearly resented me for having this and being in a bad mood about despite the fact that I knew it wasn't my fault. It's so hard to treat every man like a blank slate. It would be nice if I had faith that I could attract a good one, but I don't feel capable of that.
Sabali Posted July 31, 2010 Posted July 31, 2010 True, and when it comes to my personality it's probably very offputting to many men that I am the complete antithesis of the submissive cheerleader type. Plus, I have trust issues, and it takes a lot of work on the man's part to put my fears to rest. Ugly reality, but that is how it is. One tendancy I know I am guilty of in relationships is not giving the man space, and to me that stems from trust issues. For example, with my last boyfriend(who as far as I know wasn't a cheater), if I hadn't heard from him all day I found myself questioning if that was because he was busy talking to one of his other girlfriends. To me, not staying in regular contact with me or wanting to see me as often as possible is a red flag that I'm not the only woman in his life. . Kitten, this is the problem. You probably don't have to wonder any more if you just focus on your quote above. These behavior will always screw things up. It is almost paradoxical but by simply showing someone, especially a man that you don't trust him or fear that he may cheat on you, it almost compels that person to cheat on you. It's one of life's mysteries. I am not saying you are to blame for your exes cheating hearts but showing fear and trust issues always contribute to it. It is almost a method of breaking away from the relationship when they decided that they can't take the non-trust any longer. Takes a lot of work on a man's part to put your fears to rest? I can tell you, men generally won't put much work into this department. They look for the escape hatch! The best thing you can do to stop someone from cheating is to show that you trust them. Really. I am not saying it is ok to let your man sleep in the bed with his platonic lady friend but don't wonder and ask where he is and try to pin down his location. Probably Ironically, and in my experience, the guy to less likely to be flirtatious with women when I go out with my buddies is the guy who has the wife or girlfriend who is cool about letting him hang out in the first place and not calling him up during the night or giving him hell about it. This has been what I have always observed for as long as I can remember. Your fears are only hurting yourself. The guys you are hawking likely only feels pestered and will move on while you will drive yourself crazy wondering what he is doing. Doesn't that feel like torture to yourself? There is a thread made on this board last week asking "why do you trust" your boyfriend or girlfriend or something like that. I would read that thread everyday. Really. I find that a good way to brainwash your way into new thoughts is to read something repeatedly.
runner Posted July 31, 2010 Posted July 31, 2010 OP - i totally hear what you're saying. i've been pretty tired of it myself, yet ironically, i still do it. not the game playing part ! i mean, the dating and putting myself out there best idea i can throw at you, and yea i realise it not probably not much consolation for you, is: be patient, screen dilligently, and don't jump in the sack too quickly. and keep a solid (and realistic) idea of what you're looking for in a partner.
Author SassyKitten Posted July 31, 2010 Author Posted July 31, 2010 Zengirl - Thank you. I feel stuck, bored, and lonely where I am right now, but my week in Montreal followed by my trip to Europe is going to be so good for me, I know. It's much more consistant with who I am than being stuck in this narrow-minded excuse of a place where I constantly get questioned about why I'm not married, don't have kids, and don't go to church. Sabali - It is torture. And admittedly I have moments where I am at the point of desperate. Hell, it seems like most people around me can find a loving partner as easily as I can find a loaf of bread!
gamma1 Posted July 31, 2010 Posted July 31, 2010 (edited) It's so hard to treat every man like a blank slate. It would be nice if I had faith that I could attract a good one, but I don't feel capable of that. It is hard and I've struggled with treating women like blank slates. The more I assume, the more I've been wrong. The closer you can get to that the better as you want to be fair to each new man you meet, but you don't want to be more than fair. You clearly have both the intelligence and the looks going for you. Most men will love that. When you try at something and it doesn't work out the way you want it, it's so easy to get discouraged. At some point you have to get back up and keep going for it. I'm confident that you will find someone great. I think there's a good chance things will get a bit easier when you get out of Georgia. Edited July 31, 2010 by gamma1
Rifareal Posted July 31, 2010 Posted July 31, 2010 Really hard to trust and find the right one after a lot of misfortunes. I hope you find the right and goodluck with your career.
somedude81 Posted July 31, 2010 Posted July 31, 2010 Take heart in the fact that you're a woman. You have it one thousand times easier than any man.
Author SassyKitten Posted July 31, 2010 Author Posted July 31, 2010 Take heart in the fact that you're a woman. You have it one thousand times easier than any man. How so? I wouldn't imagine it's perfect for anyone, but at the same time one reason I am extremely jaded and cynical about the dating game is the status quo where us women are supposed to wait around and be chased. To me, it's outdated, puts us in a passive role, and gives us more room to have our hearts chewed up and spit out.
gamma1 Posted July 31, 2010 Posted July 31, 2010 Take heart in the fact that you're a woman. You have it one thousand times easier than any man. It's so easy to think that as someone who struggles to get any dates at all. However, this and some other threads show that dating can be quite challenging for many women also.
zengirl Posted July 31, 2010 Posted July 31, 2010 How so? I wouldn't imagine it's perfect for anyone, but at the same time one reason I am extremely jaded and cynical about the dating game is the status quo where us women are supposed to wait around and be chased. To me, it's outdated, puts us in a passive role, and gives us more room to have our hearts chewed up and spit out. I've never waited around to be chased. I suppose I'm a little bit coy (I'm not really aggressive, and I'm actually quite shy, especially when I was younger). Maybe it's because I was in sales and advertising, and I basically learned for a living to "chase without chasing." Is it a fine line? I really don't know, but I don't think it's ever impeded my dating life that I would go up to a fellow or felt comfortable starting conversations/expressing interest/etc. I have, despite the fact that I feel I'm quite assertive, never actually asked a guy out. But I've definitely given the signal that I want him to ask me out. That usually goes over really well; I think guys like knowing there's going to be a "Yes" at the end of their question. Take heart in the fact that you're a woman. You have it one thousand times easier than any man. The grass is always greener. I think SassyKitten's troubles prove a pretty big point since she's (seems to be) a pretty smart, accomplished, attractive gal. It's easy to think, "If I were such-and-such, life would be so much easier," but, really, it's rarely true. Everybody's got their own ups and downs.
Untouchable_Fire Posted July 31, 2010 Posted July 31, 2010 I've never waited around to be chased. I suppose I'm a little bit coy (I'm not really aggressive, and I'm actually quite shy, especially when I was younger). Maybe it's because I was in sales and advertising, and I basically learned for a living to "chase without chasing." Is it a fine line? I really don't know, but I don't think it's ever impeded my dating life that I would go up to a fellow or felt comfortable starting conversations/expressing interest/etc. I have, despite the fact that I feel I'm quite assertive, never actually asked a guy out. But I've definitely given the signal that I want him to ask me out. That usually goes over really well; I think guys like knowing there's going to be a "Yes" at the end of their question. SK... You should really pay attention to this. I can tell you with complete certainty that this can often be the difference maker.
Untouchable_Fire Posted July 31, 2010 Posted July 31, 2010 How so? I wouldn't imagine it's perfect for anyone, but at the same time one reason I am extremely jaded and cynical about the dating game is the status quo where us women are supposed to wait around and be chased. To me, it's outdated, puts us in a passive role, and gives us more room to have our hearts chewed up and spit out. SK... It's hard for me to imagine that the only guys that approach you are jerkwads. I have a strong feeling that you probably pass up excellent men every day so that you can continually go after men who are emotionally unavailable. I've had some insanely bad luck with women... yet in the end I realize that it wasn't really luck at all. I've made some very bad picks.
0hpenelope Posted July 31, 2010 Posted July 31, 2010 I hear you, Sass. Dating isn't just frustrating in the fact that it's circus-like, it's frustrating because it's also expensive: not just in monetary value, but also in time! Especially if the relationship doesn't work out. Money can be found and earned, but time? I can't get time back no matter what.
EasyHeart Posted July 31, 2010 Posted July 31, 2010 Zengirl's advice to "love yourself" is right on. And "loving yourself" is just a colloquialism for having high self esteem. People can be successful and confident in one part of their life (eg, career) and still have horribly low self esteem in other areas (eg, relationships). I've seen a lot of your posts the past few weeks, and it's pretty clear that your self esteem is pretty low when it comes to dating. You call it "trust issues", but whatever label you want to put on it, it prevents you from entering a healthy relationship. Nathaniel Branden's books are the classics on self-esteem and well worth studying, especially one called "The Psychology of Romantic Love". Also, at 28 you are far from old. Whenever I hear anyone at any age wonder if they'll ever find love (or some variation), it's usually a sign that they are so eager for a the fantasy of a relationship that they'll settle for crumbs from whomever they meet. And it sure sound like you've been settling for crumbs from the guys you've dated! Oh, and keep in mind that most of your friends (and ours) are dumbasses. Telling someone to get a f-buddy is stupid, unhealthy and immature, regardless of how old you are or what gender you are. Treating sex as disposable nothing more than a physical "need" is one of the stupidest memes human brains have yet created. The reality is that no one needs sex. Unlike food and water, we can live indefinitely without sex and for most of human history, people had sex with one or two partners for their entire life. I know the media is constantly telling us that if we don't bed someone down every night, we aren't "cool", but that's complete and utter BS. Many times, we use sex for unhealthy purposes, and it seems to me that a lot of people use sex to avoid intimacy. Or maybe they use physical intimacy as a (poor) substitute for emotional intimacy, thinking "I'm screwing this person, so we must be in love!" Sex as an expression of intimacy and affection is a wonderful thing, but nowadays that seems really rare. And not "cool". I think a lot of women use sex for an "oxytocin rush". Think about whether your high libido might be a craving for oxytocin and the phony feeling of "love" that it gives you. One of the basic truths of human psychology is that people with high self esteem naturally find themselves attracted to other people with high self esteem, and those with low self esteem are attracted to others with low self esteem. If you really feel good about who you are as a romantic being, you won't find yourself being attracted to d-bags. Those "red flags" won't be something that you have to look for; you'll just find yourself not being interested in the people who wave them.
shadowplay Posted July 31, 2010 Posted July 31, 2010 You're the perfect example of how dating is not about beauty (or even beauty + personality) and all about cultural capital, at least at the beginning. (Yeah, I know, that makes you feel better, right? ) I kind of relate. I was never fat, but I was weird looking until near the end of HS. I did have an awesome HS sweetheart who adored me and was very popular in his own right (People always asked him why he dated me at one point, before I suddenly became what people thought was, "pretty!"). In elementary school, I transferred schools in 3rd grade and until HS was ridiculed pretty badly for awhile (for being skinny, if you can believe it!), partially for my looks (and possibly slight racial issues, though I don't look particularly Asian now) and partially for my parents being divorced. Weird place I grew up in. I was also really, painfully, terribly shy, and I'm sure that contributed to it. But I didn't know anyone except my HS sweetheart would ever think I was pretty for a long time. So, yeah, I really am lucky I had him. Have you fallen in love with yourself? I know that sounds cliche and cheesy, but I think unless we either experience love at a young age (which allows us to see ourselves as lovable) or actively fall in love with ourselves later (same outcome as above), it's harder to fall in love with anyone else and have that be reciprocated. In other words, it's not: Have you learned how to love, but have you learned how to be loved? How did that happen? How did they manage to hide it from you? (Not just practically, but emotionally.) Have you reflected on that and come up with any patterns? Yuck. If you were having unpleasant sex, did you mention it while you were in pain? I mean. . . call me crazy, but I'd stop the guy. (Then again, I've always dated someone or known them before sleeping with them. I have no idea about picked-up-at-a-bar sex etiquette, if it exists.) I think people can view sex in plenty of ways that are healthy, but the way you "gave away" your virginity seems a bit. . . hasty. I mean, even if you're not getting to know people and sleeping with whomever "the spirit moves you" in the moment or whatnot, I think that's fine, so long as it is still a joyous experience. Sex should, above all else, be fun. Not like a chore. I'm sure you've since adjusted your view anyway, but just picking up the things I notice here. You have to get happy on your own first. Are you happy on your own? Also, that's a tall order. A lot of good guys who want to settle down aren't traveling the world. That's just. . .the fact. I meet lots of good guys traveling, but they're traveling because they don't want to settle down. (I meet lots of couples traveling too, but most met back home.) And that, mostly, includes women, too. Men see the stages of their lives in different way than women, in general, I think. So, I'm not saying it's hopeless but to just accept that it may take time to find someone so unique. That's always been my rule, excepting one time I consider "casual sex" with a FWB type situation when I was 20 and rather crushed-into-little-pieces by what life had thrown me, thus not suitable to date anyone. Even that FWB situation (still a friend, no benefits whatsoever for years and years now) wasn't great for me, and it wasn't like I wanted more from the guy---I just regret sleeping with someone I had so little core attraction to (he was cute, but not interesting to me) and never formed a real relationship with. Really, IME, sex with someone you love is best, sex with someone you're wildly interested in as a person is a close runner up, and sex with someone you're just attracted to is like McDonalds. Maybe some folks like it, it's cheap and quick, but don't ever try to tell me it's the best quality. Some folks may have their cravings for it, though. I think it's a reasonable rule. I consider myself a pretty sexual person, but I don't have to have sex if all that's available is casual sex. Unlike food, I can wait a bit longer. So, I don't need to have McDonalds quality sex. But it's all about knowing yourself and doing it out of your own values, rather than fear. I think you need to have a love affair with yourself first, but that's just my trite advice. You seem like a pretty cool chick, to me. The cultural capital comes after that love affair with yourself. Oh, and hang with people in solid relationships! At first, maybe you feel those pangs of jealousy, but get past that and really feel happy for those in great relationships. That helps you build the social capital and assess people and relationships better. Could you explain what you mean by "cultural capital?"
carhill Posted July 31, 2010 Posted July 31, 2010 Cultural capital Oddly, it's not dating which has affected me, it's been LTR's and marriage which has. Dating wasn't/isn't bad...
zengirl Posted July 31, 2010 Posted July 31, 2010 Could you explain what you mean by "cultural capital?" Well, I can try. (Whether or not I can explain anything well is always up for debate.) It ties in a bit to what EasyHeart said about One of the basic truths of human psychology is that people with high self esteem naturally find themselves attracted to other people with high self esteem, and those with low self esteem are attracted to others with low self esteem. If you really feel good about who you are as a romantic being, you won't find yourself being attracted to d-bags. Those "red flags" won't be something that you have to look for; you'll just find yourself not being interested in the people who wave them. Personally, I'm not a fan of the word self-esteem. . . mostly because it's so often faked, but taken the way EasyHeart means it, it ties into cultural capital. The truth is that when we face rejection in our younger years and struggle to find love, it becomes harder to find love and we are handicapped by that rejection. This could be anything---trouble in HS, bad family circumstances, terrible, abusive first relationship, whatever. Something teaches us to either love ourselves or hate ourselves or something in between. Our experiences begin to build a view of who we are, and that includes our culture, accomplishments, and the people we meet. Cultural capital is considered a lot in business. People learn how to be "successful" by where they grew up (You can learn on your own) and what they saw. It's considered much less in interpersonal relationships, but it applies even more there. Most people will see patterns in their life. Like the OP here, they'll see the same things coming at them. Even though she changed her figure, she still gets rejection. It's a different kind, but she gets rejected. It's not enough to change the outside or the circumstances to stop the pattern. You have to change the beliefs and scars that formed inside of you, build good cultural capital, and make yourself into a whole, healthy person. Some people got lucky and had early experiences to build on (I had some of both, including plenty of hardships that weren't in what you quoted, but we won't get into it), and some people didn't. Life's not fair. But that doesn't mean that everybody can't get there---I think they can. Building good judgment and experiences is hard. I don't think it starts with, "Oh, my life was rotten. Wowza: Here's my dream man." No, I think it builds more slowly and gradually than all that. You have to meet circumstances that are small improvements, but good experiences to build what you need. You have to be able to view the people around you as helpful and spot the people who aren't. That takes time and trust. People think the way to weed the losers out is to be wary of trusting anyone, but, really, I've never seen that work. Most people who get bothered least by creeps and attract the nice, healthy guys with their own healthy "self esteem" are perfectly open, trusting, healthy people---that's just the way it goes. And, like a house, it doesn't pop out of the ground one day. You have to lay the foundation, put up the walls, etc. Some people were lucky. They had a whole crew when they were young---imagine their early experiences like a "Habitat for Humanity crew," throwing the house up in a few days. Other people had to tear down a rotten, condemned house, chase away bats and snakes, lay down new sod, and start all over. And everything in between.
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