I'm so pissed. Older guy at work won't leave me alone

[Ariadne]

I don't think he's a creep, which is why I feel bad. I think he's actually nice but naive about American norms.

 

No, he is taking advantage of the fact that you can't say no to push you around. Next thing he'll try to kiss you.

[WintersNightTraveler]

No, he is taking advantage of the fact that you can't say no to push you around.

 

porque?

 

But I doubt he's naive.

[threebyfate]

Where'd I do that?

 

I have no problem whatsoever dating an American who isn't white.

You've already dated non-caucasian Americans.

 

This thread is another example of internalising external stimuli but not just with Shadow.

[SteveC80]

Just because a 40 year old tries to hit it off with a young girl makes him Mother F****** and creepy status worthy?

Victim?.... Give the guy a break lol...Probably a lonely guy that thought he'd take a shot. Next time, Shadow...kill it in the first stage....Now he thinks he has a chance so of course he'll keep at you.

 

Just tell him no.

 

If shes telling the truth the guy does sound like a creep who doesnt get hints.

 

But in general if a unattractive Man hits on a women hes automatically labeled a creep or gross

[SpanksTheMonkey]

Ive worked in the restaurant industry in the past in the states and seen this kinda thing before seamed the Spanish guys hit on allot of women im sure your not the 1st they have done this to and you wont be the last.

 

Don't take it to heart it is how ever sexual harassment and most employers take that very seriously now a days so once you tell him NO he needs to stop then and there you need to stand up for yourself or they will hound you all day long..

[DenverBachelor]

I'm 33 ... (looks at watch) ... (looks at calendar) .... ****, I'll be 40 one day!

[DenverBachelor]

Brush up on your Spanish and tell him this ...

 

 

Besa mi culo, puto! Callate el osico gordota! No me jodas! No me jodas! Que te den por el culo!

 

 

(if the admins speak Spanish, I'll see you all on another board sometime)

[SpanksTheMonkey]

I'm 33 ... (looks at watch) ... (looks at calendar) .... ****, I'll be 40 one day!

 

Ok before to many guys start freaking out here I think its more the way in witch the op was approached that made her feel the guy was a creep more then just the fact hes older?

 

Im sure if he had not "cornered" her and ignored her hints but instead had just nicely/respectfully asked her out to begun with she wouldn't have called him creepy. I dunno maybe im wrong but thats just the feeling I get on it just cause a guys older doesn't make it creepy IMO...

[Trimmer]

While the issues of race and age are interesting to consider, I maintain the OP's actual problem can be considered completely separate from her pursuer's race, cultural background, OR age. Her problem was triggered by this:

 

Once about a week ago he asked me if I would go dancing with him, and by his tone of voice I thought he was just kidding around. So I said "sure" in a joking voice to humor him.

 

...he asked me if I'd go out with him. I was taken off guard and didn't know what to say so I looked away and grumbled "uhhh...I'll think about it."

Now, in spite of her protestations that anyone "could have told" that she was joking, and that he didn't "get [her] message", I maintain that irrespective of his age or his cultural background, her situation would have been a lot better if she had communicated clearly to him right from the start, with answers of "no".

 

Why is it that guys my age don't flirt with me but middle-aged, unattractive men do? Am I really that bad? I'm actually insulted that he would think he even has a chance with me. I don't get it.

As arrogant as this is, it is a misdirection away from the fundamental problem. It doesn't matter what race, cultural background, age, or level of attractiveness he is. What matters is that you need to set boundaries, and communicate them clearly - not give "joking", misleading answers, and then once you decide things have turned "creepy", expect him to understand the real situation through hints.

 

You absolutely have the right to reject or accept any offers you wish, based on any criteria you wish. My point is that you can't very well joke and be ambiguous, and then act all creeped out and huffy (and "insulted") when someone misunderstands and doesn't "get the message" through ambiguous hints.

 

Final lesson:

I'm awful at rejecting guys who seem nice or whom I have to see all the time.

Get better at it, because when you are ambiguous, as you were here, it just makes the situation grow into something worse that will become even harder to deal with, as you are experiencing now.

[Trimmer]

Ok before to many guys start freaking out here I think its more the way in witch the op was approached that made her feel the guy was a creep more then just the fact hes older?

But note that when he asked her if she would go out dancing, she read it as a "joking" tone (read it in her OP.) That doesn't sound creepy or "cornering" to me - if she had thought it creepy at that time, why didn't she stop it then, instead of "joking" back with him, giving him a postive response?

 

I think that by not nipping it in the bud when he was joking around (and apparently not creepy, since she was joking back...), she gave him some hope, so he took it to the next level, (duh - what do guys do?) and once she failed to control the situation (still giving ambiguous answers like "...I'll think about it...") it started alarming her, so that's when she started throwing out all the excuses: he's older, he's not attractive, he's creepy, etc... The real issue is that he's someone she didn't want (and that's OK) but she didn't communicate that to him.

 

Apparently he wasn't so old and creepy when he was joking with her about going dancing that she thought it wise to answer "no" at that point...

 

So to me, her verbal communications to him pretty clearly said "yes" and "maybe", but then she expected him to read and understand her non-verbal communications as a clear rejection of him. Sorry, but whether the guy is old, creepy, and Hispanic, or young, charming, and lily-white is irrelevant to this point: is anyone really surprised that this was not a recipe for successful communication?

[JessicaB]

I agree Spanks

 

There is only one problem here and it has nothing to do with race or age.

 

1. The guy makes a pass at her twice

2. She doesn't say no and doesn't disagree to go out with him, leading him on

3. The guy, naturally, tells friends and coworkers she agreed to go out and is now more aggressive about pursing her

 

What you have started, you must undo. If you don't like older men and cooks then why didn't you just say no to start with? Next time don't lead a guy on or give him any reason to think he has a chance. This is true of any man regardless of race or age. Nip it in the bud.

 

I know a girl, she has a boyfriend, loves all of the attention she gets from other guys when the BF isn't around. If these other guys asked about having dinner together, she wouldn't say no. She would say I like that restaurant, maybe, etc. The guys thought she was interested. Ah but when they asked her out, they got the "but I've got a boyfriend what kind of creep are you" speech. Guys got mad and started calling her all kinds of names. She also treated other women's boyfriends this way, and the nastiness really started. Say no and be very clear about it. You are lucky this guy doesn't have a wife or girlfriend because you will get all of the blame and some women aren't so nice when they think another woman is messing with her man. Trust me the way he is telling the story, you were all over him and practically begging him to go out.

[Trimmer]

And incidentally, Wow......

 

Am I really that bad? I'm actually insulted that he would think he even has a chance with me.

 

... just wow. Do you realize how that sounds? Your not just confused, or surprised, but insulted?

 

Just what was it that should have made it so obvious that he had no chance with you? His "cookness?" His age? His "Spanishness?"

[SpanksTheMonkey]

Ok fair enough she made a mistake by not connecting the dots when the guy was in her eyes "joking" around but im sure thats happed to all of us at one point or another no?

 

Some times its truly hard to "read" people right if you don't believe me go see how many "what dose this look he/she gave me truly mean" type threads there are in the dating section of LS alone.

 

Still even taking into granted she made a few mistakes he did NOT have the right to "coroner" her in the basement when no one else was around. That crosses a line I personalty don't care if she had one breast hanging out and was doing the mambo at the time he still had no right and that act alone then makes him "creepy" to me.

 

Its kinda like the girls who may dress a little questionably and then get raped and the people who say well there you go you got what you wanted no they didn't no one deserves or wants that kind of negative attention.

[Phateless]

You people are unbelievable. Time and again you find a way to jump completely off topic and pounce on the original poster. This is why I don't post my own topics.

 

These were descriptive terms, maybe not tactful or accurate, but DEFINITELY not the purpose of the thread. Her question was how to tell him that she isn't interested, and we've solved that, so now she has to try it and report back.

 

Shadowplay, let me know how it goes. I actually thought the idea of going to the chef was a decent one. I vaguely recall hearing from folks who work in restaurants that the chef has some status in the joint? Can anyone with experience comment on this? I've never worked at a restaurant.

 

As for the culture issue, I'm not sure how true that is. I go salsa dancing a lot and there are a lot of latin people around, and I haven't noticed the girls complaining about aggressive latin guys more often than aggressive white guys.

 

I do agree that with men in general, you have to be CLEAR about your disinterest if you want them to have any hope of understanding.

[SpanksTheMonkey]

And incidentally, Wow......

 

 

 

... just wow. Do you realize how that sounds? Your not just confused, or surprised, but insulted?

 

Just what was it that should have made it so obvious that he had no chance with you? His "cookness?" His age? His "Spanishness?"

 

I don't get this why are we jumping on her for this? Ive seen guys say basically the same type of thing "why do only unattractive women want me" type stuff and the usual response from others is "Sorry to hear man"

 

Then followed by some actual useful info about how to improve their situation but what they don't get is psychoanalyzed and jumped on. I cant be the only one here who realizes this oblivious double standard.

[Trimmer]

Ok fair enough she made a mistake by not connecting the dots when the guy was in her eyes "joking" around but im sure thats happed to all of us at one point or another no?

 

Some times its truly hard to "read" people right if you don't believe me go see how many "what dose this look he/she gave me truly mean" type threads there are in the dating section of LS alone.

I completely agree - that's why I'm so adamant that she should have communicated CLEARLY and unambiguously with him, and not counted on him "reading" her hints. As you say, it's truly hard to "read" people right, especially when you've been given a misleading go-ahead verbally, yes?

 

Still even taking into granted she made a few mistakes he did NOT have the right to "coroner" her in the basement when no one else was around. That crosses a line I personalty don't care if she had one breast hanging out and was doing the mambo at the time he still had no right and that act alone then makes him "creepy" to me.

I took her use of "cornered" as an emotional thing - when they were alone, he asked her something so direct it "cornered" her into answering: does she have a boyfriend? Would she go out for drinking or dancing? Now, the original post could read either way - she'll have to comment to clarify. I'll admit that this reading may well be wrong, and I'm not certain of it by any means - that's just how I took it.

 

It sounds like you are taking it that he "cornered" her physically and prevented her from moving away. If that's the case, then I completely agree with you, it's unacceptable and yes, creepy.

 

But if it was just "cornering" someone with a direct question, that's a different thing.

 

I'll also point out that the OP never said she thought he was creepy - that was initiated and amplified by other posters in the thread. In fact, let's not forget that the OP has said:

 

I don't think he's a creep, which is why I feel bad. I think he's actually nice but naive about American norms.

[zengirl]

Just because a 40 year old tries to hit it off with a young girl makes him Mother F****** and creepy status worthy?

Victim?.... Give the guy a break lol...Probably a lonely guy that thought he'd take a shot. Next time, Shadow...kill it in the first stage....Now he thinks he has a chance so of course he'll keep at you.

 

Just tell him no.

 

Agreed with the advice, but, yeah, I think it makes him a creeper if she's half his age, as she said. I'm 25 (and look younger, if anything). If someone who's hit 40 hits on me, I think, "Creep." There's no reason a healthy 40 year old man should be hitting on me or any other girl my age. I know everyone doesn't agree, but it's creep-worthy to lots of folks.

 

you know girls can't do that Phateless

 

Some can.

 

At various different restaurant and retail jobs when I was younger, I worked with guys from Brazil, Peru and El Salvador. I have to admit, I laughed off a lot of innappropriate flirting from them that would genuinely upset me if coming from someone born in the US. It isn't about race at all, it's about knowing that their behavior is based largely on different cultural norms and doesn't mean the same thing.

 

True enough, but this doesn't sound quite like that. Honestly, the guys in the kitchens of the restaurants I worked in were fairly foul (all cultures). Of course, none of them sincerely tried to get me to go out with them. . . but plenty would flirt and say things. Mostly, they talked about and harassed the gals who flirted back, thank goodness, so I was never in the situation detailed here.

 

I agree Spanks

 

There is only one problem here and it has nothing to do with race or age.

 

1. The guy makes a pass at her twice

2. She doesn't say no and doesn't disagree to go out with him, leading him on

3. The guy, naturally, tells friends and coworkers she agreed to go out and is now more aggressive about pursing her.

 

I don't agree with everything you said (I think he could've sensed some of her resistance later and shouldn't be going around talking about it), but I generally agree.

 

Just say no. It's not that hard. "No, thanks." If he persists, "No, thanks. I'm not interested." If he still persists, "I've said no twice. I'm really not interested. Please stop asking."

 

If he's a jerk, yeah, you'll hit some trouble (that no one should have to deal with at work) but you keep a well-documented account of the things you did right. And then on the 4th time, you report him to management. The end.

[SpanksTheMonkey]

You people are unbelievable. Time and again you find a way to jump completely off topic and pounce on the original poster. This is why I don't post my own topics.

 

These were descriptive terms, maybe not tactful or accurate, but DEFINITELY not the purpose of the thread. Her question was how to tell him that she isn't interested, and we've solved that, so now she has to try it and report back.

 

Shadowplay, let me know how it goes. I actually thought the idea of going to the chef was a decent one. I vaguely recall hearing from folks who work in restaurants that the chef has some status in the joint? Can anyone with experience comment on this? I've never worked at a restaurant.

 

As for the culture issue, I'm not sure how true that is. I go salsa dancing a lot and there are a lot of latin people around, and I haven't noticed the girls complaining about aggressive latin guys more often than aggressive white guys.

 

I do agree that with men in general, you have to be CLEAR about your disinterest if you want them to have any hope of understanding.

 

From my personal experiences back when I was in kitchens the chef can have some influence on the other workers yes. They also have a little more pull with the management usually as well. But that said if it happens to be a franchise then management may run things a little tighter/different.

 

Now this is were im prob going to get roasted as well but I don't care I have a very good friend who happens to be portorican and he told me that different types of Latin people act diffidently. And that usually the Mexicans and some times the Peruvians are the least respectful towards women in general.That was his words not mine! He and his family were the nicest people you could ever hope to meet by the way they got along with every body.

[Trimmer]

You people are unbelievable. Time and again you find a way to jump completely off topic and pounce on the original poster. This is why I don't post my own topics.

 

I don't get this why are we jumping on her for this?

Since I stirred up this line of discussion, I'll take the heat for it - I probably didn't do a good job of explaining my concern. My point is: she is expecting him to "read" her signals, to understand when she was joking and being sarcastic and ignoring him, in spite of her actual words. She was expecting him to be "in her mind," in a sense - to have enough empathy to read that she was not interested, and back off.

 

While at the same time, she shows a significant lack of ability to do the same - to put herself in his place, to imagine how he might have received her "yes" and "I'll think about it" answers as hopeful ones, and to even be "insulted that he would think he even has a chance with me..." She can't understand him any better than he understands her.

 

My point being that when there is a lack of empathy - an inability to consider how the "other" might be feeling, or hearing you - you can't rely on "hints" and reading each others' minds. You must base your understanding on clear, unambiguous communication.

 

I apologize that my introduction of this line of discussion was divisive, especially if it contribues to making Phate afraid to start threads!

 

Ive seen guys say basically the same type of thing "why do only unattractive women want me" type stuff and the usual response from others is "Sorry to hear man"

 

Then followed by some actual useful info about how to improve their situation but what they don't get is psychoanalyzed and jumped on. I cant be the only one here who realizes this oblivious double standard.

I don't, and can't, and won't - speak for everyone else. I believe that if a guy posted that he had spoken ambiguously to an 'undesirable' woman, and that she was still pursuing him, I would give the same advice about the need for clear communication and the futility of relying on mind-reading, even though the genders were reversed. And I'm pretty sure that if he stated how he was insulted she even thought she had a chance with him, I would certainly still have the impulse (although based on this experience, maybe next time it would be better to stifle it...) to ridicule him for his arrogance and lack of empathy. If you see any examples of double-standards within my posts, please feel free to point them out to me - in PM, if you wish. I will listen with an open mind.

Edited July 30, 2010 by Trimmer

[silverfish]

From my personal experiences back when I was in kitchens the chef can have some influence on the other workers yes. They also have a little more pull with the management usually as well. But that said if it happens to be a franchise then management may run things a little tighter/different.

 

Now this is were im prob going to get roasted as well but I don't care I have a very good friend who happens to be portorican and he told me that different types of Latin people act diffidently. And that usually the Mexicans and some times the Peruvians are the least respectful towards women in general.That was his words not mine! He and his family were the nicest people you could ever hope to meet by the way they got along with every body.

 

Chefs are also massive flirts, and really enjoy making the waiting staff feel uncomfortable with sexual innuendo and teasing. It's all part of the dynamic. I don't think race has any part to play in this, as I've worked with chefs of many nationalities and lots of them do this.

 

Chefs don't have much of a social life, what with the 60-70 hour working week, so tend to hit on waitresses as they are the only available females they see all day.

[2sure]

Dont be insulted. Dont take it personally. Many men you dont like or are not attracted to will ask you out. You dont have to be flattered, but really its nothing .

 

"I'm sorry, thanks for asking, but I have no interest in dating you."

 

If he questions:

 

You can laugh but say with eye contact:

"No interest. Period. Now stop all this."

[Phateless]

Since I stirred up this line of discussion, I'll take the heat for it - I probably didn't do a good job of explaining my concern. My point is: she is expecting him to "read" her signals, to understand when she was joking and being sarcastic and ignoring him, in spite of her actual words. She was expecting him to be "in her mind," in a sense - to have enough empathy to read that she was not interested, and back off.

 

While at the same time, she shows a significant lack of ability to do the same - to put herself in his place, to imagine how he might have received her "yes" and "I'll think about it" answers as hopeful ones, and to even be "insulted that he would think he even has a chance with me..." She can't understand him any better than he understands her.

 

I completely agree with all of this. I do not, however, agree that this is just cause for jumping down someone's throat. Re-read my posts - I politely explained it to her.

[donnamaybe]

I only read a few of the posts on this thread, but why in the world would anyone advocate for ripping the poor guy up? OP, you made the mistake of "jokingly" telling him you'd go out with him. That is TOTALLY your fault. If you had said no to begin with, he would have probably let it drop. Now that the situation escalated, it's not HIS fault. Just plain out tell him you aren't interested in him in that way and that you want to maintain a good working relationship. But by all means, do NOT be mean to the guy. That's just shi--y and unnecessary.

[make me believe]

Shadowplay, I don't think you can really blame the guy because you haven't been clear that you're not interested. I think most guys are going to take a "joking" positive response as a good sign. Next time, just smile politely and say "oh, no thank you." You could even say something about keeping your work life & personal life separate if you want. But a simple "no thank you" is polite and should be effective.

 

And the guy who's flirting with the other waitress..... so what? How is that a personal reflection on you? Are people not allowed to find anyone but you attractive??

 

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I really think you need to step back and evaluate why your reactions to these common everyday occurrences are so "off".

 

I totally agree with spookie on this! What does a guy that you don't even find attractive asking another girl out have to do with anything?! You REALLY need to look at why something like this bothers you.

[shadowplay]

Wow, this thread has turned really ugly. I don't appreciate being personally attacked and downright insulted by a few users. (see the post by Bobsacramento on the previous page). I agree that I could have communicated better, but many of the responses cross the line in making this point. I'm not very experienced with this kind of thing, so I didn't know. OK? I also think, still, in light of my bad communication, his repeated pestering crossed the line. I did tell him very clearly "no" when he asked me about dancing and drinking and he kept bothering me. In the past when I've politely rejected a guy without a flat out "no" he's always stopped bothering me, so I had no reason to believe he'd be any different. I think most people get the hint, but apparently some don't. I'd like to add that my body language was also very I'm not interested. I practically ran away from him every time he cornered me and didn't make eye contact once when he was talking to me or at any other point. Next time with a guy I'll give him a flat "no" from the start.

Edited July 30, 2010 by shadowplay