I'm so pissed. Older guy at work won't leave me alone

[zengirl]

First of all, you spliced up my sentence before. The parenthesis clearly demonstrated the opposite of what you went onto say. Also, "I wouldn't be so vehement if" has nothing to do with "This is the only reason it bothers me," so you're missing the point.

 

Fair enough, nothing at all wrong with having subjective attitudes and preferences. Many people aren't attracted to those of other races, political beliefs, religions, and that's their prerogative. The trouble lies in attempting to extend a subjective preference into supposed objective truth, i.e. instead of "I don't like it," "I don't like it... and it's wrong for everyone else too." Or to be blunt and directly on topic, "Oh those ... Spanish... guys," "Oh those... old... guys." as if by just saying that, others will know exactly what you are talking about and not find the statement offensive on its face.

 

I'm not talking about race, and I'm not the OP.

 

I'm talking about men over 40 hitting on women in their lower to mid 20s. They are creepy, immature, and there is something wrong with them. Either they are looking at them purely as sexual objects or they identify more with someone with less life experience than themselves. I think seeing people as purely sexual objects is creepy. I think being immature is emotionally unhealthy.

 

I did say, earlier, that there are maybe (I've never seen them, but I try to be open-minded) some cases where a relationship could just develop naturally between people of different ages, but that's not the same as going up to a stranger or acquaintance who is clearly out of your age range. I think what makes someone go up to a stranger from whom they have only the visual knowledge they have. . . well, that's creepy.

 

In essence, who are you to say that any adult man is necessarily "immature" for approaching any adult woman? Or that any adult woman is necessarily "unhealthy" just because you wouldn't want to "be" them in their pursuit of an older man? Your analysis is rather shy and superficial on just -how- these men are immature or -how- these women are.

Why do you even care so much? My analysis is, of course, subjective of my own values and experiences. . . everybody's is. "Creepy" is not a scientific label. My analysis isn't superficial. There is a generational gap between me and a 40 year old man. We are on different emotional planes. It would take a stunted man or a woman looking for a father figure to find that a desirable situation, random bizarre exceptions aside, and those exceptions cannot be determined by looking at a person and should not provoke anyone to approach me.

 

Wish I had your talent of divining age. Personally, I can't even estimate a six year difference in age of a woman or man, once they are 18 years old or so, and that's after experiencing tens of thousands of people of all ages over the last 30 years of sexually mature adulthood. Was recently talking to a woman whom I thought was 24, and who thought I was 38. It came out by accident that she was actually 32, and I'm 46. Perhaps we should go around with "Indian Poker" age cards on our heads to determine whom we should and should not be socializing with?

I don't get upset with someone 7 years older than me. I was just giving a better estimate. I am 25, and I look much younger sometimes (This makes it even creepier when these fellows approach me). There's no way these men think I'm in my 30s because nobody ever has. I have been asked by some of them if I was legal.

 

Social skills, charm and flirtation, sexual appeal, are not as "age-linked" as you seem to think. When Matthew McConaughey walks into a room and talks to people, how many women think "He's still hot, but look at him talking to that 28 y.o. woman and he's FORTY?? what a creeper!" Is the "subjective/objective" point starting to sink in? even a little? Of course celebrities are exceptions, because they trade on youthful appearance, but there are tons of people out there who look much younger (or older) than they actually are. Would you dismiss out of hand a prematurely gray or bald 30 y.o. due to a wrongful assumption about age alone? Would you call a bald guy who wears hornrims "an old creeper" even if he was your same age?

I'm not talking about beauty. I'm talking about the place a person is/should be in their lives. Why link it to beauty and attraction so much? Of course, I wouldn't date anyone I wasn't attracted to, but when someone without youth is obviously seeking others for their youth, that's predatory. The only thing a guy can know by looking at me is that I'm young and beautiful (generally) so that's why he comes over. If he's young and attractive, that seems reasonable. Attractive can be variable, so I understand when somewhat unattractive guys come over. If he's significantly older, he knows he's older, and he's seeking youth. That's creepy.

 

Again, that's your prerogative with respect to -your- choices, but have to tell you that neither human nature nor human history is on your side here in trying to extend your subjective beliefs into some objectively valid prejudice. If you were a minor, sure, but there's just not much difference between an 18 y.o. sexually viable human being and a 28 y.o., at least not in appearance alone that derives somehow from age itself.

You mean the 1000s of years of oppressing women and making them be financially dependent upon men that led to the trend? Yeah, I realize they existed. I'm free of them, thankfully.

 

I'm not just talking about appearance.

 

Just how exactly is it supposed to make them "think twice?" They have no decoder ring, no way of knowing whether you are one of the women who has strong age preferences versus one who doesn't. As stated previously, I get approached by much younger women more than by women my own age, what that has made me "think twice" about in recent years has been my own subjective preference for women my own age to the point of excluding younger women.

 

One thing many women seem to forget over and over is that average men do not generally have the same degree of choice in mating that average women do. Men pick whom to approach, but women have the ultimate say on which advances they accept or reject. We have no reliable knowledge of which of our advances will be accepted and which rejected beforehand. We do know for sure that if we stop making advances, or arbitrarily over-restrict our advances based on the subjective preferences of others, that we will most likely be empty handed in the dating/mating game. Under your assumptions, men would have to go through way too many hoops in assessing whether to simply approach and speak to a member of the opposite sex.

Honestly, I just don't care about this. A healthy male would want someone for a partner, not someone for their youth and beauty. Now, if the guy hits on everybody at the place and it has a mix of all ages. . . then, I guess I'd find that less creepy about the age, though more creepy for hitting on everyone, I suppose. But if a guy is targeting me for youth, when he is not young himself, I find that creepy.

 

One final point is that it is unrealistic to expect a world where only desirable people make sincere advances towards the opposite sex for dating.

True. I didn't say it was realistic. I just said those men are creeps. Being 40+, approaching a woman you don't know because you believe her to be attractive and put her age somewhere at 24. . . that makes you creepy to me. At least in the dating world.

 

The faucet is either on or off. You either take the chaff with the wheat, or don't get any wheat. When men feel stultified in approaching women, it's not just the undesirables who, after reading threads like this, figure, "Why bother making sincere approaches at all with all this arbitrary female BS? Why not just take what I want in the form of casual sex, lots of that out there and available, and leave the traditional asking out and dating to the chumps? Screw it!" That results in exactly the kind of snowballing gender and dating issues we are finding ourselves mired in today.

You know, I don't find myself mired in snowballing gender and dating issues in my day to day life. But then I don't date 40 year old men. Edited August 2, 2010 by zengirl

[sally4sara]

Translation: Please give me a bit of respect and be careful how you talk to me. I'm not interested.

 

It sounds as lame in Spanish as it sounds in English..

 

(Just say "no me moleste" firmly if you want to say something in Spanish, I know they will leave you alone)

 

Yes, I sooooo care if a guy I'm not interested in ends up thinking I'm lame.

 

In an employment situation, it is best to not cop an attitude. Telling someone you count on to help you do your job to not bother you will find them not bothering to help you do your job. He is a cook? Piss him off and your table will get cold, poorly prepared meals. There goes your tip.

[Shakz]

Yes, I sooooo care if a guy I'm not interested in ends up thinking I'm lame.

 

In an employment situation, it is best to not cop an attitude. Telling someone you count on to help you do your job to not bother you will find them not bothering to help you do your job. He is a cook? Piss him off and your table will get cold, poorly prepared meals. There goes your tip.

 

Oh please, he's not going to send out substandard meals just because he's frustrated with you. He's got a job to do and so do you. Would you recommend meals that are difficult to prepare just to spite him? I doubt it.

[threebyfate]

Okay people, this thread isn't about your own insecurities about aging, etc.

 

Shadow, how do the other waitresses handle these cooks? Might be worthwhile to observe them.

[meerkat stew]

First of all, you spliced up my sentence before.

 

On the contrary, within the limitations of quoting others of internet forums, I think I've fairly addressed what you are saying.

 

I'm talking about men over 40 hitting on women in their lower to mid 20s. They are creepy, immature, and there is something wrong with them. Either they are looking at them purely as sexual objects or they identify more with someone with less life experience than themselves. I think seeing people as purely sexual objects is creepy. I think being immature is emotionally unhealthy.

 

And you don't see at all that the above attitude is brimming with unwarranted assumptions? First, how do you know with any certainty, anyone's age merely by looking at them? In the last five years I have dated a woman who looks her 45 years, a 40 y.o. who looks younger than the 23 y.o. I dated after her, a 33 y.o. who could pass for the 23 y.o's sister, and a 46 y.o. who looks 30 until you get her clothes off, then she looks about her age.

 

I did not ask these women for their drivers license when meeting them, nor did I make the supreme faux pas of asking them their age. We live in a world where many women (and some men) are prone to fib about their age. In your world, I would have dismissed the 23 y.o. out of hand because I supposedly only wanted a sexual object despite the fact that she was better read and had better taste than two of the 40 somethings who only read tabloids and listened to boy bands. Age alone is a very, very poor sole criterion for judging emotional maturity or compatibility. It becomes important when family goals are added into the picture, sure, but is still for the two people in question to work out, and not for third parties to make unfounded assumptions.

 

I did say, earlier, that there are maybe (I've never seen them, but I try to be open-minded) some cases where a relationship could just develop naturally between people of different ages, but that's not the same as going up to a stranger or acquaintance who is clearly out of your age range. I think what makes someone go up to a stranger from whom they have only the visual knowledge they have. . . well, that's creepy.

 

It's quite common actually, much moreso than you imply. As far as "just going up to" the opposite sex, stating again, it's what we men do. We don't have any magic 8 ball that tells us which woman of what age will respond favorably, and which won't. We either continue to approach women we find attractive or we don't and stagnate. We are either the tiger or the rug, not much room in between.

 

There is a generational gap between me and a 40 year old man.

 

True enough... and then...

 

We are on different emotional planes.

 

and this is why I "care so much" (which I don't actually, just shirking work). There are just no grounds for such a statement. Age, in and of itself, is no determinant of emotional maturity whatsoever. A person who has spent 30 years watching reality TV is likely less emotionally mature than someone who has spent two years out of college working in public service, for example. The point is that there is no way to know what you are dealing with on either side, other than the purely physical, until the approach is made, and no reason not to approach based on immutable traits alone. Since many women are averse to making approaches, we men have to step up and make those first "getting to know you" steps happen.

 

When I started going gray, I initially thought, "well this will foreclose opportunities with lots of women because I can't pass for 30 any more." I couldn't have been more wrong, and it got me thinking about my own preconceived notions about age. When I dated boardroom executives with seven figure incomes my own age, I initially thought, "well this woman is likely going to be emotionally mature and have her s__t together." I couldn't have been more wrong. Then dating a younger woman, "This woman is likely not going to have the same depth of taste and life experience I have." Broken record, couldn't have been more wrong.

 

It would take a stunted man or a woman looking for a father figure to find that a desirable situation, random bizarre exceptions aside,

 

More groundless assumptions about other people's state of mind and desires. Once more, focus on your own preferences and leave the analysis of others to them and theirs, at least until you -know- them.

 

I don't get upset with someone 7 years older than me. I was just giving a better estimate. I am 25, and I look much younger sometimes (This makes it even creepier when these fellows approach me). There's no way these men think I'm in my 30s because nobody ever has. I have been asked by some of them if I was legal.

 

I know tons of people who don't look their age, either one way or the other. In college, one of my best friends, my age, met my parents, who asked puzzled, "What is a 35 y.o. doing still in college?" Another friend has looked 15 since high school and still looks under 20 to this day at 45. Same for female friends. In that kind of world, why should someone try to make an assumption before even approaching? Would it be better if you weren't approached at all? I doubt you'd think so.

 

I'm not talking about beauty. I'm talking about the place a person is/should be in their lives. Why link it to beauty and attraction so much? Of course, I wouldn't date anyone I wasn't attracted to, but when someone without youth is obviously seeking others for their youth, that's predatory.

 

Why not leave it at "I don't find them attractive" then, without all the other extraneous and unwarranted assumptions? You make it sound as if we are a culture full of "uncles" in trenchcoats at the schoolyard proffering candy to get kids into their car. Completely unfounded.

 

The only thing a guy can know by looking at me is that I'm young and beautiful (generally) so that's why he comes over. If he's young and attractive, that seems reasonable. Attractive can be variable, so I understand when somewhat unattractive guys come over. If he's significantly older, he knows he's older, and he's seeking youth. That's creepy.

 

And once more, though you are the arbiter of your own tastes, you are not the arbiter of proper socializing for anyone else, their motives, inclinations or intent, as far as what is "reasonable" and what is not.

 

You mean the 1000s of years of oppressing women and making them be financially dependent upon men that led to the trend?

 

I see now, quite clearly. Perhaps you need to spend some time examining the actual facts of human history instead of the fairy tales served to you in the women's studies department, but won't derail this into a political debate further. You brought it up.

 

Honestly, I just don't care about this. A healthy male would want someone for a partner, not someone for their youth and beauty. Now, if the guy hits on everybody at the bar and it has a mix of all ages. . . then, I guess I'd find that less creepy. But if a guy is targeting me for youth, when he is not young himself, I find that creepy.

 

What if he were targeting you for your wealth? or power? or social status? or the ability to advance his career? Would those motives be creepy too? Asking again, do you really believe women who prefer to date older men "creepy" just because? It's really so much more simple than you want to make it, we see someone we'd like to meet and we speak to them. If they like us, the conversation continues, if not, c'est la vie. If we do it wrong, -that's- the problem, not merely that we are too old, or too young, or have some supposed unwholesome motives.

 

You know, I don't find myself mired in snowballing gender and dating issues in my day to day life. But then I don't date 40 year old men.

 

non sequitur

[meerkat stew]

Okay people, this thread isn't about your own insecurities about aging, etc.

 

There are quite a few insecurities and bad assumptions stated in this thread, none concerning insecurities about aging though, whether you add an "etc." and a "rolleyes" on the end or not. If you have a problem with something I've posted, please do try to show the courtesy of rising above your normal routine and address it directly.

Edited August 2, 2010 by meerkat stew

[txsilkysmoothe]

most of the harassment I have gotten is from men old enough to be my father but older. And seeing as older men can be often like this, it makes me wonder if deep down inside so many men are pedophiles.

 

Please! Pedophiles are interested in "children." The fact that an adult man is several years older than an adult woman he approaches, does not make him a pedophile.

 

You would be too OLD for a pedophile.

[Shakz]

Please! Pedophiles are interested in "children." The fact that an adult man is several years older than an adult woman he approaches, does not make him a pedophile.

 

You would be too OLD for a pedophile.

 

Actually, methinks the lady doth protest too much!

[Ariadne]

Yes, I sooooo care if a guy I'm not interested in ends up thinking I'm lame.

 

In an employment situation, it is best to not cop an attitude. Telling someone you count on to help you do your job to not bother you will find them not bothering to help you do your job. He is a cook? Piss him off and your table will get cold, poorly prepared meals. There goes your tip.

 

Actually, put this way your approach is not bad at all.

[Ariadne]

(Btw, I worked in a restaurant as a waitress and was friends with all the cooks and they even made bigger portions or added extra things for me ).

[sally4sara]

Oh please, he's not going to send out substandard meals just because he's frustrated with you. He's got a job to do and so do you. Would you recommend meals that are difficult to prepare just to spite him? I doubt it.

 

I've waited table and dealt with this with the cook WITHOUT any cultural differences that could cause a lack of communication. What I speak of is what I experienced and what I've heard from friends who have been servers. No matter what the job is, if you count on someone and you piss them off - they will find some way to make you sorry about it.

[threebyfate]

People exhibit all kinds of petty behaviours within the workplace and pretty much all places where there's more than one person present. But you cannot allow fear of pettiness or spitefulness to drive your ability to accomplish your goals. Within the context of this thread, shadow can't allow her fear to stop her from preventing unwanted sexual harassment in the workplace. She needs to find a way to be more assertive with these cooks which is why I mentioned watching how the other girls handle these creeps.

[Shakz]

People exhibit all kinds of petty behaviours within the workplace and pretty much all places where there's more than one person present. But you cannot allow fear of pettiness or spitefulness to drive your ability to accomplish your goals. Within the context of this thread, shadow can't allow her fear to stop her from preventing unwanted sexual harassment in the workplace. She needs to find a way to be more assertive with these cooks which is why I mentioned watching how the other girls handle these creeps.

 

Talk about Hell's Kitchen! Has this restaurant no manager?

[threebyfate]

Talk about Hell's Kitchen! Has this restaurant no manager?

As a final resort, I agree. But don't you think it would benefit shadow to handle this herself, if at all possible?

[Shakz]

As a final resort, I agree. But don't you think it would benefit shadow to handle this herself, if at all possible?

 

Of course, but it seems to me like she already has to the best of her ability. The problem as I see it is that SP appears to be a very sensitive person, and maybe what you or I might see as harmless banter she sees as a difficulty. However, from what she's described it just sounds like flat-out harassment to me, and the manager needs to be notified.

[threebyfate]

Of course, but it seems to me like she already has to the best of her ability. The problem as I see it is that SP appears to be a very sensitive person, and maybe what you or I might see as harmless banter she sees as a difficulty. However, from what she's described it just sounds like flat-out harassment to me, and the manager needs to be notified.

Yes, that's a good assessment of shadow, in that she's a very sensitive person. But throughout life, there won't always be an authority figure to smooth the way and it can only benefit her to learn how to push back, particularly at the outset.

 

The more you're able to handle this type of workplace dynamic, the easier it gets and the more confident you become in yourself. Small victories rack up.

[SassyKitten]

Please! Pedophiles are interested in "children." The fact that an adult man is several years older than an adult woman he approaches, does not make him a pedophile.

 

You would be too OLD for a pedophile.

 

I still wonder this often though, between the fact that I look barely legal, and that a lot of men seem to have a weird fixation with me shaving all of my hair down below.

[txsilkysmoothe]

I still wonder this often though, between the fact that I look barely legal, and that a lot of men seem to have a weird fixation with me shaving all of my hair down below.

 

How would the men who approach you (the old ones that you think are pedophiles) know you shave down there?

 

Half to a majority of women shave so a man who is fixated with that is odd and possibly creepy; but he must be a young guy, right? Because old guys never get that far with you.

[SassyKitten]

How would the men who approach you (the old ones that you think are pedophiles) know you shave down there?

 

Half to a majority of women shave so a man who is fixated with that is odd and possibly creepy; but he must be a young guy, right? Because old guys never get that far with you.

 

Of course the old guys don't get far with me, and the overwhelming majority of men I've been with kept demanding it, including my last boyfriend.

[meerkat stew]

How would the men who approach you (the old ones that you think are pedophiles) know you shave down there?

 

Ah, but you see, they still sell those "X Ray Specs" in the back of comic books, and what better way to complete the "old creeper" look than with some "Chester the Molester" plastic frames? Kill two birds with one stone, see the "airstrip" (or lack thereof) and look the part of the perv at the same time!

[meerkat stew]

Incidentally, the ratio of women who asked me to shave bare in my life to the ones I've asked to is about 5:0. Are they pedophiles too?

[SassyKitten]

Incidentally, the ratio of women who asked me to shave bare in my life to the ones I've asked to is about 5:0. Are they pedophiles too?

 

 

Could be!

[meerkat stew]

Guess that would explain that all they ever fed me was Gerber's and Juicy Juice. I do miss the Thomas the Tank Engine bib though.

[SassyKitten]

Guess that would explain that all they ever fed me was Gerber's and Juicy Juice. I do miss the Thomas the Tank Engine bib though.

 

Oh God, I would run from a woman like that if I were you. Just like I would run from any man who used the line "Who's your daddy" on me during sex.

[meerkat stew]

Oh God, I would run from a woman like that if I were you.

 

You mean "crawl" from right?

 

WHO'S YOUR DADDDDDDY!??!?!?