TheWatcher Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 Sure, I may need a man to carry extremely heavy bags of groceries for me, but I'm perfectly capable of opening my own door. Reminds me...A few years ago I was holding a door open for a female co-worker....I was going through the door & she just happened to be right behind me.I just held it open so she could go through;trying to be polite.Would have done the same if it was a guy. Anyways,She snapped loudly :"I can hold the door open myself !!".I didn't say anything...just let go of the door.A couple of seconds later she caught herself and sheepishly said "thanks".
SassyKitten Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 Reminds me...A few years ago I was holding a door open for a female co-worker....I was going through the door & she just happened to be right behind me.I just held it open so she could go through;trying to be polite.Would have done the same if it was a guy. Anyways,She snapped loudly :"I can hold the door open myself !!".I didn't say anything...just let go of the door.A couple of seconds later she caught herself and sheepishly said "thanks". She could have easily been having a bad day. That said, I have snapped on a few men holding doors open for me when it's obvious that they're using it as an opportunity to undress me with their eyes.
Sanman Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 (edited) just the same. Ah. . . but I celebrate Easter (but more like a proper pagan, with eggs and colors and chocolates, though I'm not a pagan either) but don't fast for Lent. I see what you mean, about hypocrisy to a degree. But it's only hypocritical if they claim to be a Christian under a sect that believes in fasting for Lent. Many sects don't! And they celebrate their "resurrection." The truth is philosophies are rarely about fairness, and anyone who studies them deeply will be able to point this out. The social mores people adopt are rarely consciously adopted, and we often consciously say things that don't even go to our social mores (even I do this sometimes, and I consider myself pretty damn good at awareness, abstract thinking, and knowing myself; most people have no idea when they're reacting to social mores unless you point it out). Religion, politics and philosophies are way to provoke or assuage cognitive dissonance in someone, usually in regard to social mores. Hypocrisy can't be as broad as all that. Hypocrisy is more like, "Well, you should fast for Lent, but I shouldn't because I've accepted Jesus and my Lord and Savior." Saying, "Hey, we can celebrate Jesus and have an Easter feast without fasting for Lent" is just making a new philosophy. The old philosophers might not agree with it, but it's not hypocritical. Pretty reasonable. As I generalized men above, I will generalize women now: I've rarely encountered a nice, decent gal who won't at least offer or attempt to pay (unless you're knowingly doing something outside of her income range, etc). Also, the nice, decent gals don't expect lobster. I'm not saying that those likes/actions can't coincide with a nice decent gal (just like above, with my male description, and the blue-eyed Asian, I suppose it's possible), but they rarely do. Fair enough. I know it's hard for doctors to date when they're young. The hours are murder. I'm still surprised that you manage to get out for 50 1st and 2nd dates a year. Word, especially to the underlined part. While, I wouldn't call it outright hypocrisy, it is taking advantage of the options afforded to you. Maximizing, one's happiness or advantage is natural, but not necessarly fair to others. Hell, the protestant movement was created because Henry VIII didn't want to bother having to struggle to get a divorce. Any person or group can create a philosophy or idea without is being fair. Hence how slavery or even the traditional role of the subservient female came into being. People in those societies didn't consider themselves as cruel for profiting off the misery of others...it was simply the social norm. It is simply the issue that in this time period women are able to take advantage of the social more and many choose to do so. As for "gold diggers" who want lobster, I haven't gone out with many outright. However, I have had a few that wanted to meet up at trendier NYC lounges, wine bars or tapas bars. A triple digit bill is all but assured for a cocktail and some food. I try to be open but consider that a lack of consideration of my needs. More than that, even well intentioned women can be "on the fence" about guys they are seeing, especially given the multiple dating that is so common today. However, this indecision is costing the poor guy money with every date and getting him nothing if she chooses another. Well, I may date alot recently, but it is makng up for lost time. I was very career focused earlier in life and have recently decided to make career choices that allow me to make dating and finding a partner as feasible as possible. It really is a priority for me now. As others have said, it isn't simply about being cheap. It is the rare woman that puts herself in the man's position realizes that I don't owe her anything for her company. That said, I choose to enrich the life of those that I love and money isn't an object for those truly special women. I will never regret spending money on any woman I loved and was in a relationship with (no matter how it ended) because she has taught me something about myself and enriched my life. It is the women that have brought nothing to my life and cost me money for the experience (or lack thereof) that frustates me. For all the women on here that have had nightmare first dates, think about having that date cost you $50. Edited July 30, 2010 by Sanman
jamesum Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 (edited) It depends on the culture of where I am. I dont mind paying. It makes me feel good about myself. But honestly inside I have little respect for women who expect men to take care of them. To me such women lack dignity, lack sophistication, and see themselves as a possession. Nevertheless, people need to seriously stop about debating over paying on first dates. The universal rule is that the asker has to pay. If you dont wanna spend money on the first dates, then dont ask anyone out. Edited July 30, 2010 by jamesum
zengirl Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 While, I wouldn't call it outright hypocrisy, it is taking advantage of the options afforded to you. . . It is simply the issue that in this time period women are able to take advantage of the social more and many choose to do so. All good points, even the parts I cut for spacing here. It really depends what the philosophy is based upon. (You can have just as toxic a philosophy about not paying for dates, as a guy, as a gal can for letting a guy pay, etc.) Really, I think very little of who is going to pay unless a fellow makes an issue of it. I always offer. I never outright insist if I actually like the guy, because I know that can cause cognitive dissonance in some fellows. It just can. I like creative, artistic, inexpensive things; I don't really like fancy dinners. I guess I like some semi-expensive brunch and sushi places from time to time, but nothing like $50 a plate. And I wouldn't want a fellow to take me anywhere I wouldn't pay for myself, and actively feel uncomfortable being in such places. I'm not high-falutin' I'm not McDonalds either. I'm quirky, artsy, and in between. If he doesn't decline my offer, it is noted. . . but just because of patterns I've noticed. If he seemed enthused about me in other ways, I might still go out with him again, though I'd be perplexed. My male friends, FWIW, have always told me not to go out with fellows who don't pretty much insist on paying for the majority of the first 3 dates. My female friends would say that is silly. The world is very strange! I kind of don't stick to rules. As for "gold diggers" who want lobster, I haven't gone out with many outright. However, I have had a few that wanted to meet up at trendier NYC lounges, wine bars or tapas bars. A triple digit bill is all but assured for a cocktail and some food. Yikes. Well, that's NYC for you. I tend to ask a guy to meet me at a semi-cheapie coffee/tea/wine/beer place the first time. I think the total bill couldn't come to $50 unless we drank tons (I barely drink more than a glass or two of wine, so never on me) or stayed all day. I really think dates should not be expensive or fancy in the beginning. Way to much pressure. I don't even want to get all dressed up! For all the women on here that have had nightmare first dates, think about having that date cost you $50.True. Though along the lines, far fewer men complain that they were used for sex. I suppose everyone will always have their complaints. That's not to say I'm not sympathizing with you on it, or even really disagreeing.
SassyKitten Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 Actually, on that note ($50 for a date), I do feel weird when a guy starts dropping money on me like mad like that. It feels like the more he spends on me, the more he's thinking I owe him sex.
stellaluna Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 I pay for dates, always. I insist. Doesn't matter if I want to see her again. That's what a good guy does.
mixwell Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 I think if you ask a chick out then you should pay but once you're in a relationship it should be split depending on financial status.. In dating stages I think a guy should always pay but once you're a couple then you should work TOGETHER when you go out and hang out. Again if you're a male and make more then it might be alright to cover a date/hang out with your chick.. The last think i usually worry about in a relationship is money.. If i have my debts under control then I don't mind taking my chick and even if I pay for everything and I never have a resentment for it. I am a very unmaterialistic person and could care less about wealth and even with male friends I will spend my last dollar to have fun wherever we are.. That is bad for my money management but I would rather have fun and enjoy myself than to worry about cash if I don't have to.. This is mostly why I live check to check because I want to have fun and I don't care as long as I can survive but I know eventually I need to make a plan but hell for the time being I will pay for a chick I am dating but once in a relationship I would expect her to at least offer at times..
Author summerl0vesyou Posted July 30, 2010 Author Posted July 30, 2010 (edited) Hmm, very interesting responses. I feel a bit torn about the subject. Im a 21 year old student, finishing my bachelor's in science (for nursing). i work at a hospital. I make decent money but most of it goes towards bills. Ive never had to pay for a date, usually I offer nice gestures when I can (picking up a present, little things, or sometimes paying just for myself). So up until now, I never really questioned how Id feel if a guy expected me to pay. At first I was upset at: Me- "Well if you come out here, we could go to $5 movie monday" boyfriend-"Well, are you paying?" he always asks me what I want to do, so i suggested this before he even asked. and it ended up turning into a fight, and him saying he didnt want to spend his money on that and Im unfair and ungrateful to expect him to pay because I should pay because im the one that suggested a movie. and that i shouldnt expect him to pay all the time. weve only been together for 2 mths. Its not that I couldnt have paid, I just was so irritated at his reaction. he ended up saying he didnt want to spend his money on me that night and I just got so mad. hes like "you pay for nothing" etc but Ive bought him little things, I drive out there 3 out of the 4 times i see him every week and he lives 30 min away. on top of that, i drive an hour to school everyday and 30 minutes to work. he drives 30 min to work and thats his only stop. I was mad at him for being cheap and i felt like he didnt really like me as much because of his reaction but then i started thinking- WHY is it so important for HIM to pay? What is the big deal, anyway? Maybe hes right. Edited July 30, 2010 by summerl0vesyou
Author summerl0vesyou Posted July 30, 2010 Author Posted July 30, 2010 ^^in addition to above. everyone has been telling me that i could do better, i should be with a guy who wont mind paying for me all the time and that this guy is a cheap loser...but hes not always refusing to pay for things and he does pay for the things we do..so should i really be upset? is he really cheap? is it even that big of a deal? why should i dump someone just because he doesnt want to spend money on me? i mean, yeah its a bit careless and selfish- but it is HIS money afterall. I dont know. everyone says hes a jerk and a loser. but...idk.
Untouchable_Fire Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 ^^in addition to above. everyone has been telling me that i could do better, i should be with a guy who wont mind paying for me all the time and that this guy is a cheap loser...but hes not always refusing to pay for things and he does pay for the things we do..so should i really be upset? is he really cheap? is it even that big of a deal? why should i dump someone just because he doesnt want to spend money on me? i mean, yeah its a bit careless and selfish- but it is HIS money afterall. I dont know. everyone says hes a jerk and a loser. but...idk. I dumped a woman once because she threw temper tantrums everytime I refused to buy her something. Don't be like her... Your BF isn't cheap... he just has a spinal column. If you pay for so few dates that you have to add in ticky tack things like 30 min drive times... I would say your solidly in the wrong. Your young and you are still trying to figure this out, so don't sweat it too much. Oh... and who on earth is telling you to dump him cause he is cheap? Some other guy? Lame!!
jamesum Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 I think people are too obsessed with giving and taking. A man who cares too much about a woman paying her share is not a good man. And a woman who cares too much about a man paying for her is not a good woman. I like paying for dates. Im not a 'calculating' person. For me a woman who SINCERELY offers to contribute financially on a date is enough to convince me of her character. But I can tell when a woman PRETENDS to offer paying on dates for motives other than actually sincerely wanting to pay.
zengirl Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 Its not that I couldnt have paid, I just was so irritated at his reaction. he ended up saying he didnt want to spend his money on me that night and I just got so mad. hes like "you pay for nothing" etc but Ive bought him little things, I drive out there 3 out of the 4 times i see him every week and he lives 30 min away. on top of that, i drive an hour to school everyday and 30 minutes to work. he drives 30 min to work and thats his only stop. I was mad at him for being cheap and i felt like he didnt really like me as much because of his reaction but then i started thinking- WHY is it so important for HIM to pay? What is the big deal, anyway? Maybe hes right. I think it likely belies something greater in him, you, or your relationship if a fight developed over a $5 movie. And if he actually said, "I don't want to spend money on you," well. . . I'd be a bit upset by that. It's more an attitude thing than anything. That said, it's not like it'd kill you to treat him to $5 movie night! I'm with jamesum on that this is something that gets overthought on the boards (myself included). It has honestly never been an issue for me in life (though maybe 'cause I'm a girl---I don't know). A give and take usually just develops in any good rapport, and financially is no different.
jamesum Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 ^^in addition to above. everyone has been telling me that i could do better, i should be with a guy who wont mind paying for me all the time and that this guy is a cheap loser...but hes not always refusing to pay for things and he does pay for the things we do..so should i really be upset? is he really cheap? is it even that big of a deal? why should i dump someone just because he doesnt want to spend money on me? i mean, yeah its a bit careless and selfish- but it is HIS money afterall. I dont know. everyone says hes a jerk and a loser. but...idk. Is he a fellow student too or is he an already established guy? If he is also a student then doesnt he just make as much money as you? I think most guys dont mind paying. What we dont like is when we are expected to pay. But then again every guy has a choice. If he doesnt wanna spend money then dont have a girlfriend. Simple.
VertexSquared Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 I normally just pay, no questions asked -- most of the time I am the one footing the bill. Sometimes my girlfriend will pay for lighter bills (if we both go to a cupcake shop, or a good place for croissants, or a light burger joint), whereas I typically front the sit-down dinners and movies, etc. I am okay with this because she's a great woman and I love spending time with her -- but the ONLY time I've ever been miffed is when my girlfriend invited me to a rather expensive NYC dinner location and didn't reach for the check. I fronted it without complaint anyway, but I thought it was slightly rude (especially because at the time I was having a financial difficulty in my life, which she was aware of), and I am kicking myself for not standing up for myself. Money is a really difficult thing to talk about.
Sanman Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 (edited) I'm with jamesum on that this is something that gets overthought on the boards (myself included). It has honestly never been an issue for me in life (though maybe 'cause I'm a girl---I don't know). A give and take usually just develops in any good rapport, and financially is no different. Agreed. Usually it isn't an issue. Though, if she hasn't attempted to pay or made it up in some other way in three dates, she is gone because she may just she me as a wallet (long-term). I understand that many women want a man to take care of them. My issue is simply a question of what happens if down the line I can't work and need taking care of (illness or whatever). Is divorce easier than shouldering the burden for these women? I think most guys dont mind paying. What we dont like is when we are expected to pay. Very important difference. I agree whole-heartedly But then again every guy has a choice. If he doesnt wanna spend money then dont have a girlfriend. Simple. True. Then again I point out that this is a double standard as a woman can date and choose whether she wants to spend money when doing so. The above is the only choice men have. Edited July 30, 2010 by Sanman
SassyKitten Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 Money is a very awkward thing to talk about, and at the end of the day I want the man I am with to appreciate that I am a woman and not a girl. At the same time, I figure that it's common courtesy that if a woman suggests that they go somewhere else on a date after dinner that she should help pay for it. As I am a student, my style is if I want the date to go for a bit longer, I'll suggest that we go on a walk somewhere.
Pink Cupcakes Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 Eh, I'm not saying that because the guy I'm dating has taken me to a few nice dinners that that is the kind of lifestyle I lead. Going to Olive Garden, you can easily plunk down $50 with dessert, and tip is added on top of that. Also, sushi can be expensive, too, if you go to a really good place, as zengirl stated. We have also gone to a local Mexican restaurant. The guy took me too a very good authentic Italian restaurant the first night. It is nice but definitely not "fancy" as zengirl has stated. The food is just amazing, and he ordered us a fantastic bottle of wine. This doesn't mean I insist on fancy dinners.
Untouchable_Fire Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 This whole topic of who "should" pay for dates is just beaten to death. Nothing is going to change. The bottom line is that most dates don't turn into relationships or even second dates. So that leaves a good chunk of guys feeling like they just paid to get rejected. Women want to feel like a guy isn't cheap... or that he is kind and generous. That is more than understandable as these are traits you either want or want to avoid.
jamesum Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 True. Then again I point out that this is a double standard as a woman can date and choose whether she wants to spend money when doing so. The above is the only choice men have. Its not a double standard man. They just have an advantage. Also, women who expect to be taken care of for everything tend to be the 'Chloe Kardashian' type if you know what I mean because these women get a lot of offers from countless men so for them it is a privilege for a man whom they choose to go out with. But lets be honest, hot and popular men behave in the same way as well.
Pink Cupcakes Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 Honestly, a manly man will want to pay, especially on the first date. a wimpy kind of guy isn't going to want to pay for a woman on the first date, even if he asked her out. A man wants to feel like a man. If you want a wimpy, feminine type of guy, then go ahead and insist on paying on the first date, and he'll accept your offer.
sally4sara Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 Honestly, a manly man will want to pay, especially on the first date. a wimpy kind of guy isn't going to want to pay for a woman on the first date, even if he asked her out. A man wants to feel like a man. If you want a wimpy, feminine type of guy, then go ahead and insist on paying on the first date, and he'll accept your offer. Lovely generalizations there. My very unfeminine husband would be tickled to hear he is a wimp all because I paid on our first date. Then he fixed my broken PC the next day. Tell me, when you buy your groceries, do you feel like a man? When I use to date, I'd usually just tell the server up front to make it separate checks. No reason to fuss about which practical stranger pays for the other practical stranger. I'm not impressed with money so I want to see if they can impress me some other way. I like resourceful people.
Pink Cupcakes Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 If a man asks me out and pays for dinner, I in no way feel indebted to the man or that he has any control over me whatsoever, or power.....what do you do about the majority of the women who feel the same way? i like to pay for every date cause it gives me a sense of control and power and it also makes the girl indebted to me. once in a relationship i expect her to pay once in a while.
Pink Cupcakes Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 Lovely generalizations there. My very unfeminine husband would be tickled to hear he is a wimp all because I paid on our first date. Then he fixed my broken PC the next day. Tell me, when you buy your groceries, do you feel like a man? When I use to date, I'd usually just tell the server up front to make it separate checks. No reason to fuss about which practical stranger pays for the other practical stranger. I'm not impressed with money so I want to see if they can impress me some other way. I like resourceful people. there are some exceptions. Obviously the "date" was a paying him off for fixing your PC. Nothing wrong with the asker pays, which is how I do it. There's no fussing then. Seriously a man who is interested will pay so at the time you took your pre husband on his first date, and even to the end of dinner, he wasn't yet convinced, but later obviously convinced he was interested.
sally4sara Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 there are some exceptions. Obviously the "date" was a paying him off for fixing your PC. Nothing wrong with the asker pays, which is how I do it. There's no fussing then. Seriously a man who is interested will pay so at the time you took your pre husband on his first date, and even to the end of dinner, he wasn't yet convinced, but later obviously convinced he was interested. No, dear. He fixed the PC the next day. I asked him out - he showed he was interested by wanting to spend time with me. Would YOU accept a date with someone you were not interested in? I know men will offer, but it doesn't mean they are interested in anything more than your vagina. I didn't want to have my meal paid for; I am not a child. Trust me, paying for dinner isn't what makes a man manly. Most of the guys who got in a twist over me paying for my own meal only did so because money was all they relied on to impress women. Take it away and you see it clearly. And if all they have going for them is money - they are not my equal. It doesn't have to be a rigid thing. Sometimes I pay for friends and sometimes they pay for me. Or if its a celebration like a bday. When my exhusband and I split, I didn't know what to expect with dating. I'd married so young I never experienced adult dating much. At first, I just went with the flow and mostly men wanted to pay. These men who were all about paying all had something to hide. An awful personality. Expectations of easy sex. Or they were married and used money to try to keep you from asking pesky questions. Anytime a guy threw a fit at me wanting to pay for my own meal got his way; I let them pay. But they never got a second date. I don't say never let someone pay for your meal or always go dutch. Rather, watch out (both men and women) for anyone who insists you pay or insists they pay. Its a good clue that its a game strategy.
Recommended Posts