Who holds Knowledge? Power?

[Hazyhead]

So very, very true, OW. Hadn't thought of that. I think that when dday happens and remorse kicks in (for some), part of the regret is how they held

that truth away from two other people and couldn't even see it.

 

Very insightful, missus!

 

[/b]

Many people have assumed that that must be the WS... and in many cases it certainly is. But the WS doesn't always have the truth - some WSs have a very tenuous grip on reality, believing their own fantasies and half-truths. Others have a distorted view of "truth" as a result of gaslighting or other toxic R dynamics, as did my H in his M. And still others are trying to get to the truth - finding themselves hostage to forces or dynamics raging within themselves, a prisoner of their deeply repressed history or a victim of the psychological warfare being waged between their superego and their id. For these WSs, truth lies elsewhere - out of their reach - and they look to others to provide it, if only through reflections or shadows or lightning flashes across their darkened vistas. They don't hold power - don't see themselves as having any power - and project that which they do have onto others, looking to the BS or the OW/OM to provide solutions, resolutions, the "truth" that in reality only they can deliver. By denying their power, they abdicate it in favour of others whose own "truth" may be even more partial (such as an OW who doesn't know the full story, or a BW who doesn't even know she's betrayed) or to fate, unable or unwilling to take the action that would bring resolution in whatever form.

[OWoman]

Any relationship where one has to concern themselves with who has the power or who has a leg up on the other is intrinsically unhealthy and pathetic.

 

I don't agree with this - I think it's important to recognise the power dynamics in ANY R, of whatever kind (not just romantic Rs) and to monitor that it does not become pathological.

 

Some Rs are structurally unequal - M, in patriarchal societies; parenting - except perhaps in extremely liberal middle-class "Western" homes where the children may seem to be in charge; employment Rs (although this is offset to some extent in progressive countries through workers' rights and strong trade unions) and "care" Rs (patients in hospitals or pupils in schools) while others are not inherently unequal, but may be depending on the characteristics of the people within them (eg an adult with a much younger partner; a wealthy person with a much poorer partner; a person from the dominant racial group / religion / caste with a partner from an oppressed group or minority, etc). Even where all factors may appear to render the partners equal, personality types (domineering vs retiring, extravert vs shy, etc) can affect power dynamics - or, conversely, render an apparently unequal R more equal (such as a beautiful, outgoing younger woman whose confidence allows her to be equal to an older, wealthy or powerful man).

 

Denying or masking power within Rs merely serves to validate the power dynamics by rendering them invisible, benefitting the dominant and entrenching the relative powerlessness of the oppressed. Without making power dynamics visible, women would still be chained to the cooker and black people would still be slaves.

[Silly_Girl]

Many people have assumed that that must be the WS... and in many cases it certainly is. But the WS doesn't always have the truth - some WSs have a very tenuous grip on reality, believing their own fantasies and half-truths. Others have a distorted view of "truth" as a result of gaslighting or other toxic R dynamics, as did my H in his M. And still others are trying to get to the truth - finding themselves hostage to forces or dynamics raging within themselves, a prisoner of their deeply repressed history or a victim of the psychological warfare being waged between their superego and their id. For these WSs, truth lies elsewhere - out of their reach - and they look to others to provide it, if only through reflections or shadows or lightning flashes across their darkened vistas. They don't hold power - don't see themselves as having any power - and project that which they do have onto others, looking to the BS or the OW/OM to provide solutions, resolutions, the "truth" that in reality only they can deliver. By denying their power, they abdicate it in favour of others whose own "truth" may be even more partial (such as an OW who doesn't know the full story, or a BW who doesn't even know she's betrayed) or to fate, unable or unwilling to take the action that would bring resolution in whatever form.

 

This is excellent. I've seen the gist of this alluded to elsewhere but not seen it wrapped up quite like that. Not comfortable reading, mind you!

[crazycatlady]

This is an interesting topic. One of the things that in the end really got me rather hysterical was the fact that during a tramatic time in our relationship (and it wasn't just the affair but a work situation as well) the OW new more then I did. And she had a fuller picture too because I also talked with her until I knew....

 

Now I do think I had more power after I found out and before they found out I knew. I was still missing knowledge, but unknown to my H I was looking into leaving, which in a way gave me even more power. I was deciding what I could and couldn't deal with and where to go from there.

 

But I agree the knowledge is power...now, according to my H, I should have had more power then I felt I had because I should have KNOWN (heh) that he was devoted to me even though he cheated and then lied and denied. Because in his mind it did not take away his love for me and the fact that to him, I was the primary love of his life. Sure he loved her, but not as primary in his life.

 

On the last side was the power she had....because she heard things from both of us in a way she had her own for of more power....and since I am no longer convinced her motives was pure - or at least selfishly love driven - but were rather more motivated through jealousy, insecurity etc I don't think H really knew her like he thought he did either....i sure as hell didn't....At best it was a game to her to boost her ego at worse she was actively trying to break us up for whatever reason.

 

So at least with us, there was power in all directions at various times. But I have to say the least powerful is the BS until discovery or confession. After that it depends on the dynamics of the A as to where the power belongs.....

 

CCL

[Spark1111]

This is an interesting topic. One of the things that in the end really got me rather hysterical was the fact that during a tramatic time in our relationship (and it wasn't just the affair but a work situation as well) the OW new more then I did. And she had a fuller picture too because I also talked with her until I knew....

 

Now I do think I had more power after I found out and before they found out I knew. I was still missing knowledge, but unknown to my H I was looking into leaving, which in a way gave me even more power. I was deciding what I could and couldn't deal with and where to go from there.

 

But I agree the knowledge is power...now, according to my H, I should have had more power then I felt I had because I should have KNOWN (heh) that he was devoted to me even though he cheated and then lied and denied. Because in his mind it did not take away his love for me and the fact that to him, I was the primary love of his life. Sure he loved her, but not as primary in his life.

 

On the last side was the power she had....because she heard things from both of us in a way she had her own for of more power....and since I am no longer convinced her motives was pure - or at least selfishly love driven - but were rather more motivated through jealousy, insecurity etc I don't think H really knew her like he thought he did either....i sure as hell didn't....At best it was a game to her to boost her ego at worse she was actively trying to break us up for whatever reason.

 

So at least with us, there was power in all directions at various times. But I have to say the least powerful is the BS until discovery or confession. After that it depends on the dynamics of the A as to where the power belongs.....

 

CCL

 

Wow! Did we experience the same OW?

 

OW, you make an excellent point re: the WS's confusion in feeling powerless and seeking to find strength and validation externally. In this state, you are right: They themselves are often clueless as to what the truth may be, especially in their own soul.

[jj33]

Interesting point especially since you still have that business relationship. I wonder how long you'll feel this way in light of that?

 

 

I think hes run out of steam. Either that or hes taking a vacation from trying to provoke me... but he cant at the moment anyway because the sands have shifted recently and for the moment I hold all the cards again. Its a nice feeling:p

[crazycatlady]

Wow! Did we experience the same OW?

 

OW, you make an excellent point re: the WS's confusion in feeling powerless and seeking to find strength and validation externally. In this state, you are right: They themselves are often clueless as to what the truth may be, especially in their own soul.

 

Spark - given that my sister is a serial OW, it is possible but highly unlikely. From my memory of at least the two other times that I know of you don't fit who it was. 1 was way to many years ago and the other was one of her closest friends.

 

I'm actually struggling right now with a lot of anger....some of it is at my H for what he did, but so much of it is on her because she did not face the situation she helped cause....I'm wanting to beat up on H who has faced it, who has tried his damnest to help me get over it (and trust me, I've put his ass through a wringer severanl times and have unloaded on him more then a few times). Its not fair when its an anger at her because she won't face it. And when she knew I wanted to talk to her about it she caused an even greater problem at the expensive of MY child. Which only pisses me off all the more....Sorry this is not the place for it but I'm struggling tonight.

 

CCL

[wheelwright]

I'm actually struggling right now with a lot of anger....some of it is at my H for what he did, but so much of it is on her because she did not face the situation she helped cause....I'm wanting to beat up on H who has faced it, who has tried his damnest to help me get over it (and trust me, I've put his ass through a wringer severanl times and have unloaded on him more then a few times). Its not fair when its an anger at her because she won't face it. And when she knew I wanted to talk to her about it she caused an even greater problem at the expensive of MY child. Which only pisses me off all the more....Sorry this is not the place for it but I'm struggling tonight.

 

CCL

 

((hugs))

 

I'm sorry CCL. Good your H has faced up. Rubbish she hasn't.

 

It seems she is happy to cause you problems and then not own up to her behaviour. Which hurts you, and quite possibly her even more.

 

I hope she finds the strength to help you resolve it (it seems from here you've got that strength already).

 

Best to you,

 

WW.

[HappyAtLast]

A clever other woman always has all of the power in an affair situation. A clever other woman knows that she has so very many more options in life than her currently married lover and never hesitates to let her man know that she knows she has options.

[White Flower]

A clever other woman always has all of the power in an affair situation. A clever other woman knows that she has so very many more options in life than her currently married lover and never hesitates to let her man know that she knows she has options.

Is this what your fOW/W did?

 

I did that recently, yesterday in fact. Today he said he was going to ask his dad if he could move in with him next week.

 

Who knows if it will actually happen, but if it does, your theory may hold true.

[HappyAtLast]

Is this what your fOW/W did?

 

I did that recently, yesterday in fact. Today he said he was going to ask his dad if he could move in with him next week.

 

Who knows if it will actually happen, but if it does, your theory may hold true.

 

I always was mindful of the fact that my other woman had the world at her feet and endless options. She is not the sort of woman that would tolerate not being a man's first priority, and I was not about to take the chance that this beautiful woman might not become my wife.

[wheelwright]

I had not thought in terms of other forms of power (1st bolded).

 

In the second bolded part, I don't understand how the wife has any power if she doesn't know.

 

And totally agree with your last sentence.

 

Because even though she (sic?) doesn't know, the BS already has huge power in the life agenda of the WS. The secret parties know this, but despite the secrecy the power of BSs holds water. At any moment, the whims of the BS can have a huge impact on the arrangements, feelings of the APs. BSs have the power of government, while the APs are mere anarchists who might cause a ripple, but aren't going to change anything unless they dedicate their lives to it. Even though BSs are in the dark about something, everything they do speaks of their powerful stance.

 

It takes an awful lot of dedication for a revolution.

 

I had an academic discussion recently - power the subject. I haven't worked out all that was said ( and I'm suspicious of the outcome just because it was 'academic')

 

One professor said, 'If I ask a young student to come for a coffee, is this an example of power?' Does she have to go? Will she feel obliged because I'm a professor?'

 

The other prof. said, no that's not power. It's only power if you ask the young women to do something she wouldn't ordinarily do, like go to the gents toilets with you, and the obligation was there.

 

!st professor accepted this.

 

Gaslighting a BS would be like this, as would persuading a MM/MW to have an A with the 'power' that we know lust/the need for connection holds.

 

Similar power is shown when M people request their SO's not enjoy EAs or PAs with new people. Ordinarlily, by themselves, these people would do just that (especially if they are feeling lonely).

 

The power is held in different ways. But I think on balance, after DDay, the BS holds most.

 

Before, it's pretty equal. Knowledge is not power.

 

Although not having it or having it may make you feel more/less powerful.

Edited August 1, 2010 by wheelwright
power

[White Flower]

Because even though she (sic?) doesn't know, the BS already has huge power in the life agenda of the WS. The secret parties know this, but despite the secrecy the power of BSs holds water. At any moment, the whims of the BS can have a huge impact on the arrangements, feelings of the APs. BSs have the power of government, while the APs are mere anarchists who might cause a ripple, but aren't going to change anything unless they dedicate their lives to it. Even though BSs are in the dark about something, everything they do speaks of their powerful stance.

 

It takes an awful lot of dedication for a revolution.

 

I had an academic discussion recently - power the subject. I haven't worked out all that was said ( and I'm suspicious of the outcome just because it was 'academic')

 

One professor said, 'If I ask a young student to come for a coffee, is this an example of power?' Does she have to go? Will she feel obliged because I'm a professor?'

 

The other prof. said, no that's not power. It's only power if you ask the young women to do something she wouldn't ordinarily do, like go to the gents toilets with you, and the obligation was there.

 

!st professor accepted this.

 

Gaslighting a BS would be like this, as would persuading a MM/MW to have an A with the 'power' that we know lust/the need for connection holds.

 

Similar power is shown when M people request their SO's not enjoy EAs or PAs with new people. Ordinarlily, by themselves, these people would do just that (especially if they are feeling lonely).

 

The power is held in different ways. But I think on balance, after DDay, the BS holds most.

 

Before, it's pretty equal. Knowledge is not power.

 

Although not having it or having it may make you feel more/less powerful.

Very good post, especially the bolded part.

 

I suspect that BW used her power (not knowingly, but suspicious nonetheless) and it was that power that cause many a plan to fizzle out, making me, the AP, feel the impact you pointed out. She may have never known just how powerful she was, but she was indeed powerful. MM give their BW that power...often just to keep the A going.

[Owl]

I don't know...a BS may INADVERTANTLY affect the affair with choices and decisions they make.

 

These decisions may even occur because they SUSPECT that there's something wrong in their relationship with the WS, even if they don't yet know of the affair for sure.

 

I can see where the fact that the affair must be kept secret can cause some of the decision making power to "leak" out of control of the affair partners...where they might not be able to do things they'd like to because of the need to keep things hidden.

 

But the real ability to make CHANGES in the situation relies on knowing that there's a problem, and knowing enough about the problem to be able to make effective changes.

 

Most BS's don't have that kind of "power" until d-day. The entire reason an affair is kept hidden is with the express intent to keep that power out of the BS's hands. To PREVENT them from having the power to change/end the affair by confronting their WS.

[Spark1111]

I don't know...a BS may INADVERTANTLY affect the affair with choices and decisions they make.

 

These decisions may even occur because they SUSPECT that there's something wrong in their relationship with the WS, even if they don't yet know of the affair for sure.

 

I can see where the fact that the affair must be kept secret can cause some of the decision making power to "leak" out of control of the affair partners...where they might not be able to do things they'd like to because of the need to keep things hidden.

 

But the real ability to make CHANGES in the situation relies on knowing that there's a problem, and knowing enough about the problem to be able to make effective changes.

 

Most BS's don't have that kind of "power" until d-day. The entire reason an affair is kept hidden is with the express intent to keep that power out of the BS's hands. To PREVENT them from having the power to change/end the affair by confronting their WS.

 

I'm not sure what power I held during the affair...If I caused plans to fizzle out because of a last minute family issue, I certainly did NOT KNOW I was exercising any power to thwart their previously planned encounter.....

 

When I did discover the affair, the only power I gained was over me and my choices.

 

I confronted. I asked him to pack a bag and move out. I dealt with the devastation of his betrayal. I reclaimed my life and made plans for a future without him.

 

I did not malign her or his feelings for her, but I was angry, angry, angry to have been lied to and deceived about them. I told him to go get her.

 

Ball in his court. At that point HE STILL had all the power to choose for HIMSELF the future he wanted.

 

So I always find it hard to reconcile this BS assumption that we are all needy manipulators who pull out every stop to get back a man who does not want us.

 

Not the case for me at all; not the case for most I know who reconciled well.

 

And during that time he had all the power to choose her! I have no idea what his spin was to her; how he positioned himself to let her down lightly, how he made it all about my wants, my desires, my demands....my power?

 

Because NONE of THAT NONSENSE would have been true.

[OWoman]

I think that often in an A, power is projected elsewhere.

 

The WS often denies their power, projecting it onto the BS (who may not even know of the A, and may thus not know of any power they hold / don't hold, as Spark mentioned).

 

The OW / OM often denies their power, projecting it onto the WS (on whose "choice" everything allegedly hangs) or the BS (for "manipulating" the WS into staying, on Dday, or before Dday, the threat / fear of the BS manipulating the WS into staying on DDay).

 

The BS, on DDay, often denies their power and projects it on to the WS (on whose "choice" it all allegedly hangs) or the OW / OM, who "stole" their WS and whose evil seductive powers need to be neutralised so that the "fog" can lift.

 

Denying one's own power is understandable - it absolves one of the agency and responsibility of having to make a choice and live with the consequences, and of being seen to be the "bad guy" if things don't work out as one had hoped. It excuses potential bad choices and allows one the moral high ground of martyrdom.

 

But owning one's power, and acting on it, as some BSs, some WSs and some OWs / OMs do, brings the kind of resolution and fulfilment that is sustainable, that allows whatever decision you make to BECOME the right one.