Who holds Knowledge? Power?

[OWoman]

On another thread, someone posted:

 

The triangle dynamic ensures that only one person knows the truth and lies in the situation: the MM/MW.

 

Since knowledge is power, that would imply that he MM / MW held the balance of power in an A.

 

Is this a structural necessity, or does it depend on the individual A? I have my own views on this, but I'd be interested to hear what others think.

[Hazyhead]

Well... I went into the A an attached person. At this point the 'power' was equal. We worked around each other and feelings weren't so much involved at this point. I don't like admitting all of this, because I regret now that I was that selfish... anyhow - that's how it was.

 

The lies ate me up and due to other personal circumstances AND the A I Ended my primary relationship. Blah, blah, blah... 6 months on the situation was that I was the single OW to a MM and the dynamics around the relationship meant that most things had to be done one his terms... or rather, the terms that his M would allow.

 

The knowledge, we both had... but the power, I gave up. In a way, I'm glad I did this because it helped me to pull away when it came down to it; I was sick of living my life according to someone else not something I had ever done before and is/was not healthy.

 

I know your situation's different OW, because he prioritised you. It did teach me to keep hold of my own power

[TOWinNYC]

Yes, as a blanket statement it would seem as if the MM/MW has all the "power/knowledge", but personally I think it depends on the individual A.

 

IMO whoever does the "chasing", the one who puts more effort into keeping the R going, the one who expends more energy into the R, the one who can't "let it go" - is the one who is at a disadvantage.

 

Doesn't matter which corner of the dynamic you stand in - whether you're the AP, MM/MW or the BS.

 

Case in point? Betty Broderick - the infamous flipside of the bunny-boiler.

[bentnotbroken]

He always held the power because he had the truth, the knowledge. Then when I got the info I needed...I had the power. Knowledge = Power

 

Knowledge+Power= Freedom Freedom from the lies, from the ropes around my life while he went through women, freedom to make my own life choices.

[Hazyhead]

He always held the power because he had the truth, the knowledge. Then when I got the info I needed...I had the power. Knowledge = Power

 

Knowledge+Power= Freedom Freedom from the lies, from the ropes around my life while he went through women, freedom to make my own life choices.

 

Nice post Bent. You're right - I gave away the knowledge too, but thinking about it, when I had it it was at the expense of somebody else in that distorted R/A. So it was never knowledge that was balanced or worth having because of the guilt that goes along with it.

 

Now I have the knowledge that he was not worth it. I guess his wife feels the same (for obvious different reasons) because he is now living elsewhere.

[GreenEyedLady]

It is true, he held the knowledge. He knew the whole truth.

 

But I believe that I held the power. I was the one who decided if I stayed or left. And he cared if I left. I was not disposable or easily replaceable to him.

 

I could go anywhere and he could just go home.

 

That is why I feel that the OW in the R's give up the power so easily thinking that the MM has the power, when he in fact does not. He may know his heart and the truth of the matter but any power he has is that which is given to him.

 

GEL

[Spark1111]

He always held the power because he had the truth, the knowledge. Then when I got the info I needed...I had the power. Knowledge = Power

 

Knowledge+Power= Freedom Freedom from the lies, from the ropes around my life while he went through women, freedom to make my own life choices.

 

Amen!

 

And if it is not about power and control, why not convey the truth to all?

 

It isn't an affair, if everyone knows the truth of the situation, is it?

 

And I am always amazed how many OW/OM are so willing to believe all that is said and conveyed by the MM/MW regarding the BS, while still realizing the BS has no knowledge of them or the affair relationship.

 

Right there, a huge red flag, IMHO.

 

The may claim kids, finances, whatever, keeping them in the marital relationship, but maybe it is plain old selfishness.

 

It could be as simple as the WS does not want the BS to know because they do not want to risk the BS finding someone new to have a passionate loving relationship too.

 

Or maybe they do not want the OW pressuring them for a more permanent commitment, because hell, that's not any fun.

 

So it works to keep the triangle alive as long as the OW allows it, or until the BS discovers the truth.

[torranceshipman]

What a great post...I agree that the MM holds all the power, simply because he has all the information. The moment someone tells the truth, he loses that, and some power shifts to the OW/W. I am hugely in favor or people telling the truth for this reason.

 

A's can't really exist (most of them anyway) when they are exposed to the light, as honesty cuts off the air supply to the lies that keep it going

[jj33]

Great post as usual OWoman. I think it depends. You can keep your power or you can give it up. It all depends on your boundaries to some extent.

 

There is also a saying that he/she who loves more has less power (which is a fear that dominated my xMM) and there is some truth to it. Those who love more often end up yielding more of their power to the other.

 

I dont think that is necessary I think it happens more than it needs to.

[TOWinNYC]

But I believe that I held the power. I was the one who decided if I stayed or left. And he cared if I left. I was not disposable or easily replaceable to him.

 

I couldn't have said this better myself.

[Owl]

I think that the MM/MW typically holds the power for a good while during the affair...for the reasons stated....they're the ones who have all the knowledge.

 

But...the REAL person who ultimately holds the power is the person who's willing to end the relationship if it becomes unsatisfactory for them.

 

The BS is typically the last person to have the chance to hold that power....because they're intentionally kept in the dark about the whole situation...with the express intent of denying them the opportunity to have any power. They're deliberately denied the chance to have a choice...to have that power.

 

Once they're aware...they have the same opportunity to "sieze the power" that MM and OW both shared prior to d-day.

 

But no one really HAS the power unless they're willing to actually use it.

 

That's why my advice to so many BS's (and OW who are struggling with an MM who makes all the decisions) is to take that power back. Make their OWN decisions, and implement them. Taking action = exercising control and power over your own life.

 

That knowledge is the first step...it's key to knowing that you HAVE TO take action. But taking the actual steps to change the situation...that's where the power comes into the equation.

 

And the thing is...once you take those first steps...that power feeds on itself and you become stronger and more able to take the NEXT steps....and the next after that.

 

But...it starts with knowing you have to make a choice and take action.

[White Flower]

 

But...the REAL person who ultimately holds the power is the person who's willing to end the relationship if it becomes unsatisfactory for them.

 

 

But no one really HAS the power unless they're willing to actually use it.

 

 

But...it starts with knowing you have to make a choice and take action.

Love love love it!!!

 

While I agree that the MP has a lot of power due to knowledge on both sides of the A, there are other powers involved.

 

I became MM's confidant, the only one in all his years of infidelity. Losing me is huge to him not only due to losing a sexual partner and good friend, but because of the ear he always had. I am 15 years younger than him but he sought MY advice in most things regarding past exes and how to deal with them as well as most Rs in his life. Many times it was I who felt powerful in his decision making process.

 

Perhaps I am speaking about secondary powers involved in As, not sure. But I did have a lot of influence and felt pretty powerful at times as an A partner.

 

Yet, it was the ultimate power in making US happen full time and out in the open that I lacked. So, as you suggested Owl, I used the only power I had left and that was to walk away.

 

Who knows if it will work...got a message this morning that there was a turning point in IC yesterday...blah blah blah.

 

And if it never happens at all, I feel by using MY power to walk, I had a voice in bettering MY life, unlike a humiliating (albeit insincere) NC call on D-day.

[jj33]

Good point Owl. I felt I had power while the A was ongoing. It was only after that i felt like he held the power because it was so difficult for me to navigate the business relationship with him.

[White Flower]

Good point Owl. I felt I had power while the A was ongoing. It was only after that i felt like he held the power because it was so difficult for me to navigate the business relationship with him.

Interesting point especially since you still have that business relationship. I wonder how long you'll feel this way in light of that?

[wheelwright]

This is an interesting thread. I think I agree it's different for each case.

 

I did want to add though that there are different forms of power.

 

Much of this has been about decision making power. But people use other forms of power. Such as agenda setting. Power of suggestion. Of manipulation. Altercasting. To walk away (as has been said). To deceive or tell the truth. To be generous or mean.

 

I think the BS, WS, and AP have these forms available in equal measure (even if BS is in the dark).

 

But the OW/OM has no say in the ultimate R decisions that are made by the WS. And they go into it knowing this, but having little power over it. Just as the WS has no power to keep the AP there should they wish to walk. Like all Rs.

 

The BS has slightly more say in these ultimate decisions if DDay has occurred. If they are in the dark, then they are not really a player. The WS holds the dice.

 

And the OW/OM had a lot of power in being a key player in setting the agenda in the first place.

[seren]

I think that during an A the MP has the greater knowledge of what their situation is, I think that much is a given (IMO) as they are present in all sides of the triangle. OW/OM has a degree of knowledge and power as they know it is an A, have knowledge from MP and use that knowledge to choose to stay in the A or leave. So in that respect they also have power, that to stay, go or to give ultimatums, as in leave the M and come back when you are separated. For those who remain, based on expectations given as a result of MP saying whatever, they might see it as exercising power, but this is based on MP's explanation of how things are in the marriage.

 

The BS is unaware of the A, so has no knowledge on which to make an informed choice, so although has no power per se, is ignorant of the A so cannot be said to have relinquished power as they aren't even aware they have to make a choice about anything. The power is taken from them without them even knowing. Don't you just love gaslighting??

I think that one of the reasons MP doesn't confess all to BS is the fear that once the BS has knowledege and is able to make an informed choice, the power to continue the marriage becomes the BS's. The power to reconcile becomes the married couple. At this point, if the WS is honest with AP and stays, the marriage has the power as if it didn't, the WS would exercise their power to leave. or of course the BS packs their bags for them.

 

So, knowledge lies with the WS. Informed choice is only possible when the A is out in the open, even then there may be lies told and so rather than knowledge being power, I would say honesty is the true power as only then can everyone have a true understanding of where they stand and make informed choices.

Now I have confused myself. The truth is what truly sets us free !!

[mmk1]

In the MM/MW scenario, I think the power is with whoever is more reluctant to leave their marriage. If one party is willing to leave their M and the other is not, the who is not willing to leave has the power.

[Fieldsofgold]

Love love love it!!!

 

While I agree that the MP has a lot of power due to knowledge on both sides of the A, there are other powers involved.

 

I became MM's confidant, the only one in all his years of infidelity. Losing me is huge to him not only due to losing a sexual partner and good friend, but because of the ear he always had. I am 15 years younger than him but he sought MY advice in most things regarding past exes and how to deal with them as well as most Rs in his life. Many times it was I who felt powerful in his decision making process.

 

Perhaps I am speaking about secondary powers involved in As, not sure. But I did have a lot of influence and felt pretty powerful at times as an A partner.

 

Yet, it was the ultimate power in making US happen full time and out in the open that I lacked. So, as you suggested Owl, I used the only power I had left and that was to walk away.

 

Who knows if it will work...got a message this morning that there was a turning point in IC yesterday...blah blah blah.

 

And if it never happens at all, I feel by using MY power to walk, I had a voice in bettering MY life, unlike a humiliating (albeit insincere) NC call on D-day.

 

Excellent! Excellent!!!

 

As for the turnig point in IC, I hope it's true and not just so much blah, blah, blah.

[Fieldsofgold]

I think that during an A the MP has the greater knowledge of what their situation is, I think that much is a given (IMO) as they are present in all sides of the triangle. OW/OM has a degree of knowledge and power as they know it is an A, have knowledge from MP and use that knowledge to choose to stay in the A or leave. So in that respect they also have power, that to stay, go or to give ultimatums, as in leave the M and come back when you are separated. For those who remain, based on expectations given as a result of MP saying whatever, they might see it as exercising power, but this is based on MP's explanation of how things are in the marriage.

 

The BS is unaware of the A, so has no knowledge on which to make an informed choice, so although has no power per se, is ignorant of the A so cannot be said to have relinquished power as they aren't even aware they have to make a choice about anything. The power is taken from them without them even knowing. Don't you just love gaslighting??

I think that one of the reasons MP doesn't confess all to BS is the fear that once the BS has knowledege and is able to make an informed choice, the power to continue the marriage becomes the BS's. The power to reconcile becomes the married couple. At this point, if the WS is honest with AP and stays, the marriage has the power as if it didn't, the WS would exercise their power to leave. or of course the BS packs their bags for them.

 

So, knowledge lies with the WS. Informed choice is only possible when the A is out in the open, even then there may be lies told and so rather than knowledge being power, I would say honesty is the true power as only then can everyone have a true understanding of where they stand and make informed choices.

Now I have confused myself. The truth is what truly sets us free !!

 

Whoever has the truth, has the power.

[Fieldsofgold]

This is an interesting thread. I think I agree it's different for each case.

 

I did want to add though that there are different forms of power.

 

Much of this has been about decision making power. But people use other forms of power. Such as agenda setting. Power of suggestion. Of manipulation. Altercasting. To walk away (as has been said). To deceive or tell the truth. To be generous or mean.

 

I think the BS, WS, and AP have these forms available in equal measure (even if BS is in the dark).

 

But the OW/OM has no say in the ultimate R decisions that are made by the WS. And they go into it knowing this, but having little power over it. Just as the WS has no power to keep the AP there should they wish to walk. Like all Rs.

 

The BS has slightly more say in these ultimate decisions if DDay has occurred. If they are in the dark, then they are not really a player. The WS holds the dice.

 

And the OW/OM had a lot of power in being a key player in setting the agenda in the first place.

 

I had not thought in terms of other forms of power (1st bolded).

 

In the second bolded part, I don't understand how the wife has any power if she doesn't know.

 

And totally agree with your last sentence.

[Mombot]

Thw wife has power- the house, the bank accounts, sympathy, the children/grandchildren. She may also own the health insurance, CD's and other assets.

[NancyBotwin]

Any relationship where one has to concern themselves with who has the power or who has a leg up on the other is intrinsically unhealthy and pathetic.

[fooled once]

He always held the power because he had the truth, the knowledge. Then when I got the info I needed...I had the power. Knowledge = Power

 

Knowledge+Power= Freedom Freedom from the lies, from the ropes around my life while he went through women, freedom to make my own life choices.

 

Love it BnB

 

I think that the MM/MW typically holds the power for a good while during the affair...for the reasons stated....they're the ones who have all the knowledge.

 

But...the REAL person who ultimately holds the power is the person who's willing to end the relationship if it becomes unsatisfactory for them.

 

The BS is typically the last person to have the chance to hold that power....because they're intentionally kept in the dark about the whole situation...with the express intent of denying them the opportunity to have any power. They're deliberately denied the chance to have a choice...to have that power.

 

Once they're aware...they have the same opportunity to "sieze the power" that MM and OW both shared prior to d-day.

 

But no one really HAS the power unless they're willing to actually use it.

 

That's why my advice to so many BS's (and OW who are struggling with an MM who makes all the decisions) is to take that power back. Make their OWN decisions, and implement them. Taking action = exercising control and power over your own life.

 

That knowledge is the first step...it's key to knowing that you HAVE TO take action. But taking the actual steps to change the situation...that's where the power comes into the equation.

 

And the thing is...once you take those first steps...that power feeds on itself and you become stronger and more able to take the NEXT steps....and the next after that.

 

But...it starts with knowing you have to make a choice and take action.

 

Wise Owl -- very wise!

[White Flower]

Excellent! Excellent!!!

 

As for the turnig point in IC, I hope it's true and not just so much blah, blah, blah.

Thanks FoG. Only time will tell.

 

Whoever has the truth, has the power.

I agree, even if the truth is delayed. In the case of D-day, sometimes the BS because almighty powerful (and very intimidating) to the WS! This was the case in MM's D-day.

 

Any relationship where one has to concern themselves with who has the power or who has a leg up on the other is intrinsically unhealthy and pathetic.

I get what you're saying. MM definitely feels his W has more power with regard to most things in their M. He is dealing with it in IC. Strange that we allow these things to go on forever. Instead of dealing with it way back when, he just cheated. Then it became a pattern, sadly.

 

And even though he has identified the power-play in his M and how he allowed that to be his excuse for cheating, she still has the power to keep him there. Power is ....a powerful thing:rolleyes: but I'm not sure I want it that badly. At least not to that extreme. I just want to be equals. But that is a different thread.

[OWoman]

Whoever has the truth, has the power.

 

Many people have assumed that that must be the WS... and in many cases it certainly is. But the WS doesn't always have the truth - some WSs have a very tenuous grip on reality, believing their own fantasies and half-truths. Others have a distorted view of "truth" as a result of gaslighting or other toxic R dynamics, as did my H in his M. And still others are trying to get to the truth - finding themselves hostage to forces or dynamics raging within themselves, a prisoner of their deeply repressed history or a victim of the psychological warfare being waged between their superego and their id. For these WSs, truth lies elsewhere - out of their reach - and they look to others to provide it, if only through reflections or shadows or lightning flashes across their darkened vistas. They don't hold power - don't see themselves as having any power - and project that which they do have onto others, looking to the BS or the OW/OM to provide solutions, resolutions, the "truth" that in reality only they can deliver. By denying their power, they abdicate it in favour of others whose own "truth" may be even more partial (such as an OW who doesn't know the full story, or a BW who doesn't even know she's betrayed) or to fate, unable or unwilling to take the action that would bring resolution in whatever form.