Why are cheaters so stupid?

[LifesontheUp]

While my MM might very well throw me under the bus at Dday (since this is the knee-jerk reaction of all MPs), he is not a "selfish cake eater". May I suggest that you read Emily Brown's book Patterns of Infidelity and Their Treatment, to get a deeper understanding of affairs? Your view is just too simplistic.

 

You still don't specify what our relationship is less than. Less than it could be if my MM was single? Well, that is true. Less than what I have described it as being? Well, that is not true. I am the one who has experienced the incredible love, intimacy and chemistry we have shared, not you. Nothing you say can take away from my experience. It is like saying: The sex you experienced was not as good as you thought. Huh? Sex is as good as it is in the moment you experience it. Chemistry, intimacy, love is as good as it is in the moment you experience it.

 

I think as a BS you are too close to see the wood from the trees. You are refusing to realize that the reality is that an extramarital relationship really can be that great, even when the MM never leaves.

 

Borrowing WW's words which got this discussion started:

"It was that hot."

 

And in my words:

It is that hot.

 

I don't need to read a book by Emily Brown to read more about affairs. You see them play out on here and other forums every day. Yours isn't any different to most as you full well know.

 

I was a BS a very very long time ago and have a very good relationship with my xH so have gone waaaaaaaaaaaay beyound the trees. Unlike some who are still very much in them Jennie.

 

To repeat...............If its that great and that hot why doesn't he leave is wife for you? Oh yeah because you DO NOT mean as much to him as his wife. His wife comes first and you are the little secret kept behind closed doors. Like I said, its not you that goes to family functions, its his wife.

[jennie-jennie]

I don't need to read a book by Emily Brown to read more about affairs. You see them play out on here and other forums every day. Yours isn't any different to most as you full well know.

 

I was a BS a very very long time ago and have a very good relationship with my xH so have gone waaaaaaaaaaaay beyound the trees. Unlike some who are still very much in them Jennie.

 

To repeat...............If its that great and that hot why doesn't he leave is wife for you? Oh yeah because you DO NOT mean as much to him as his wife. His wife comes first and you are the little secret kept behind closed doors. Like I said, its not you that goes to family functions, its his wife.

 

Never would I trade what I have for what his wife has. :love:

 

Are you sure you are healed? Your choice of words to describe the WS and the OW do not indicate that. Do you talk that way in front of your husband? Or do you not share that part of yourself with him?

 

Too bad you are not willing to seek knowledge outside the limited context of a forum. I never limit myself to one source of knowledge. I prefer to be much more informed than that.

[Hazyhead]

 

I think as a BS you are too close to see the wood from the trees. You are refusing to realize that the reality is that an extramarital relationship really can be that great, even when the MM never leaves.

 

 

Jennie, I agree with you that a person outside of a relationship can't really quantify what it is 'less than'... in fact, it is difficult for anybody to as relations and emotions are far too abstract to be comparative. But, to the quoted above, I think this can apply to APs as well - everybody can be too close to see the wood from the trees.

[LifesontheUp]

Never would I trade what I have for what his wife has. :love:

 

Are you sure you are healed? Your choice of words to describe the WS and the OW do not indicate that. Do you talk that way in front of your husband? Or do you not share that part of yourself with him?

 

Too bad you are not willing to seek knowledge outside the limited context of a forum. I never limit myself to one source of knowledge. I prefer to be much more informed than that.

 

I don't see reading such a book as knowledge. Its a book which gives that persons slant of view. Forums are full of people with real life experiences and happenings......real life! By reading posts on forums you get all sorts of perspectives and not just 1 which you get with a book. So no, I disagree they are not limiting.

 

I also work with a cheating MM, who is very open about his affairs

 

Talk what way in front of my husband? We have an honest and open relationship, he knows my feelings on life and I know his. We don't have any secrets....unlike your MM. Like I said over 5 yrs of cake eating, with you enabling him to get HIS needs met. Its all about HIM

[Mimolicious]

I should have specified that my comment in bold referred to the BS on LS, who engage themselves in discussions about affairs. It was not meant as a comment to BSs in general, but as a comment in an ongoing discussion between OW/OM and BSs on LS, where BSs often state the opposite.

 

But then I also want to add, that as a BS knowing (the times that was the case, it wasn't always, often it was ONS or flings) that the affair my SO had involved a deeper connection and love, made me understand why he and the OW had gone through with it.

 

I am sorry you hurt, Mimo, it seems your husband supplied you with more information than necessary.

 

Understand theirs or understand yours? Maybe it took for to be dancing the tango in the middle on your A with your MM to understand where your xH and his OW were coming from?

[jennie-jennie]

Jennie, I agree with you that a person outside of a relationship can't really quantify what it is 'less than'... in fact, it is difficult for anybody to as relations and emotions are far too abstract to be comparative. But, to the quoted above, I think this can apply to APs as well - everybody can be too close to see the wood from the trees.

 

Perhaps, but you do know if you are enjoying the ride or not.

[jennie-jennie]

I don't see reading such a book as knowledge. Its a book which gives that persons slant of view. Forums are full of people with real life experiences and happenings......real life! By reading posts on forums you get all sorts of perspectives and not just 1 which you get with a book. So no, I disagree they are not limiting.

 

I also work with a cheating MM, who is very open about his affairs

 

Talk what way in front of my husband? We have an honest and open relationship, he knows my feelings on life and I know his. We don't have any secrets....unlike your MM. Like I said over 5 yrs of cake eating, with you enabling him to get HIS needs met. Its all about HIM

 

Now I am sincerely curious. Do you then consider your husband to have been a cake eater too? And have you told him as much? Using that very expression? And the co-worker, does he know your true opinion of affairs? And he is still that open with you?

Edited August 2, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[jennie-jennie]

Understand theirs or understand yours? Maybe it took for to be dancing the tango in the middle on your A with your MM to understand where your xH and his OW were coming from?

 

Mimo, I had experience for 30 years of being the BS. I came to that realization long before I became the OW myself. My opinion and my view on affairs have not changed since I was the BS. I never expected more from my WSs and their OW, than I expect of myself and my MM today. No double standards here.

[silverfish]

Matter as much as when? Matter as much as what?

 

I matter as much as I have always mattered. Together we have the best relationship he has ever had when it comes to intimacy, chemistry and love. But I can not provide him with the same sense of family that his wife can. They have many children together. I am not their mother. They have a house and a life they have built together. They have in-laws and mutual friends. What we have experienced during these 5 years in terms of an incredible relationship is not made less by the fact that he also values other relationships in his life. That is a very simplistic view of life.

 

This has me a bit confused now. I can't work out if your BFs W is the BW or the OW, I mean if he's sleeping with her does that make her the OW? I know that's how my mother saw it when my dad went back to her for more after he left. Same with my exH....cheated on his GF with me so I guess I was the 'OW' too.

 

I still do the family in law blah stuff because I consider them my family after 16 years and them me, divorce doesn't change that at all. It seems to me like the common denominator in all these OW / BS/ Infidelity forums is there's a dithering drama queen in the middle who can't make up their mind what they want and that's annoying enough in a restaurant let alone in a relationship.

 

I admire all those with the patience to deal with it

[wheelwright]

Hi WW,

 

I wondered about the bolded bit. Are you saying all responses to betrayal are emotionally childish? If not, what in your opinion would be a response that is not emotionally childish?

 

Just wondering because it really does read as if you think there is no response to betrayal that is not emotionally childish.

 

I am embarrassed to say I completely forgot I wrote this. Guess I was drunk (another sorry after effect of A, ho hum).

 

I am also rather glad I did, as it was an impassioned response to the whole 'stupid' thing.

 

Anyway, yes on the whole I think the response to infidelity is in some way childish. Someone needed something, they did it at much cost to themself (that isn't a word) usually, but they felt it worth it.

 

The feeling of betrayal is much like any other bad vibe a person sends you. It's more about them than you. But if you feel insecure, you worry it is about you. That you are not good enough or whatever.

 

That's when the nerves get touched.

 

I grew up, when I realised that the bar-tender, friend, whatever wasn't lashing out or being irritable because of me. It was because of how rubbish they were feeling.

 

I don't buy the biblical stuff about monogamy and fidelity either.

 

People need to explore and feel fulfilled. If they aren't getting it at home, they will of course, if attractive people, go elsewhere. It is childish to expect someone to live in this state in perpetuity because of an ancient promise. And it is childish to feel cross with them. And selfish.

 

They are being themselves (wrong word again)

 

I don't know what a mature response would be. Let me see. 'I get why you did that. I've been witholding sex and other R gratification from you for so long, it's entirely understandable. I only wish I'd got there first because now I feel like an a**.'

 

OK, this is devil's advocate. But a bit of this would go a long way. Some BSs do it.

 

The 'stupid' thing got me going...

[wheelwright]

ten characters needed

 

Is this a kind of insult? Don't know, just suspicious of the tone.

[LifesontheUp]

Now I am sincerely curious. Do you then consider your husband to have been a cake eater too?

 

Of course he was a cake eater. He initially wanted to keep me and see OW. He didn't want to interrupt the status quo. Thats a cake eater surely?

 

And have you told him as much? Using that very expression?

 

Yes, we've had numerous discussions about it all. I was honest about how I felt and the words selfish and cake eater were used. Not exactly the most nasty words that could have been used given the circumstances at the time but they were used. I have no idea why you've taken such exception to it He was a selfish cake eater and he admits he was.

 

And the co-worker, does he know your true opinion of affairs? And he is still that open with you?

 

My co-worker is fully aware of my opinion on affairs and knows my background albeit it occurred many years ago. Our other colleagues think he's a big joke and get annoyed with him because he has a wife and 2 kids at home.

 

I just find it sad that he lives the life he does.....a life full of deceit and lies. What example is that to your kids?

[jennie-jennie]

This has me a bit confused now. I can't work out if your BFs W is the BW or the OW, I mean if he's sleeping with her does that make her the OW? I know that's how my mother saw it when my dad went back to her for more after he left. Same with my exH....cheated on his GF with me so I guess I was the 'OW' too.

 

This is interesting. If you read some of my posts the other week when my MM had sex with his wife for the first time in a year, you saw that I considered myself the BS when that happened. What do I then consider his wife to be? The OW? No. A ONS. I am not expecting it to repeat itself.

[jennie-jennie]

Of course he was a cake eater. He initially wanted to keep me and see OW. He didn't want to interrupt the status quo. Thats a cake eater surely?

 

 

 

Yes, we've had numerous discussions about it all. I was honest about how I felt and the words selfish and cake eater were used. Not exactly the most nasty words that could have been used given the circumstances at the time but they were used. I have no idea why you've taken such exception to it He was a selfish cake eater and he admits he was.

 

 

 

My co-worker is fully aware of my opinion on affairs and knows my background albeit it occurred many years ago. Our other colleagues think he's a big joke and get annoyed with him because he has a wife and 2 kids at home.

 

I just find it sad that he lives the life he does.....a life full of deceit and lies. What example is that to your kids?

 

Thanks for answering. I am glad you have been open about your feelings to your husband. I do not like the word cake-eater, I find it derogatory, that is why I do not use it. But I believe there are MM who do enjoy the status quo of having two women and have no desire to change that, perhaps your husband was one of those. My MM isn't.

 

I agree with you about the co-worker. I don't know anything of course about him and his OW, but if he truly is in love with her, he would set a much better example for his kids by getting a divorce. It is too bad so many MM think they are doing the kids a favor staying married, when instead they are teaching their children to in their turn become WS, BS and OP.

[jennie-jennie]

I am embarrassed to say I completely forgot I wrote this. Guess I was drunk (another sorry after effect of A, ho hum).

 

I am also rather glad I did, as it was an impassioned response to the whole 'stupid' thing.

 

Anyway, yes on the whole I think the response to infidelity is in some way childish. Someone needed something, they did it at much cost to themself (that isn't a word) usually, but they felt it worth it.

 

The feeling of betrayal is much like any other bad vibe a person sends you. It's more about them than you. But if you feel insecure, you worry it is about you. That you are not good enough or whatever.

 

That's when the nerves get touched.

 

I grew up, when I realised that the bar-tender, friend, whatever wasn't lashing out or being irritable because of me. It was because of how rubbish they were feeling.

 

I don't buy the biblical stuff about monogamy and fidelity either.

 

People need to explore and feel fulfilled. If they aren't getting it at home, they will of course, if attractive people, go elsewhere. It is childish to expect someone to live in this state in perpetuity because of an ancient promise. And it is childish to feel cross with them. And selfish.

 

They are being themselves (wrong word again)

 

I don't know what a mature response would be. Let me see. 'I get why you did that. I've been witholding sex and other R gratification from you for so long, it's entirely understandable. I only wish I'd got there first because now I feel like an a**.'

 

OK, this is devil's advocate. But a bit of this would go a long way. Some BSs do it.

 

The 'stupid' thing got me going...

 

WW, I just love your posts. They give me so much to think about.

[donnamaybe]

Thanks for answering. I am glad you have been open about your feelings to your husband. I do not like the word cake-eater, I find it derogatory, that is why I do not use it. But I believe there are MM who do enjoy the status quo of having two women and have no desire to change that, perhaps your husband was one of those. My MM isn't.

And how do you really know that? Because he tells you he is soooo torn? Do you really think he believes you'd hang around if he said, "I have no intention of ever leaving my marriage. I simply enjoy the attentions of two women."

[LifesontheUp]

Thanks for answering. I am glad you have been open about your feelings to your husband. I do not like the word cake-eater, I find it derogatory, that is why I do not use it. But I believe there are MM who do enjoy the status quo of having two women and have no desire to change that, perhaps your husband was one of those. My MM isn't.

 

I agree with you about the co-worker. I don't know anything of course about him and his OW, but if he truly is in love with her, he would set a much better example for his kids by getting a divorce. It is too bad so many MM think they are doing the kids a favor staying married, when instead they are teaching their children to in their turn become WS, BS and OP.

 

Jennie - why do you thing your MM isn't like that? He won't give his wife up for you, you've said you've tried. So why can't you see that could very well mean he enjoys the status quo.........its been over 5 yrs after all.

 

I'm not sure if you are aware but its my xH I refer too. You see I didn't want to live with someone who also wanted to see OW when he felt like. It was unacceptable to me to have a 3rd person in the marriage and I packed his bags and kicked him out. If he wanted OW, then that was up to him but I wasn't going to accept it. Within a week or two (I forget its so long ago) he came begging for me to take him back. Quite a number of months later I started divorce proceedings. We still chat when we see each other as he works on the same floor as me still.

 

I'm are sure had I said yes to seeing his OW, he would have continued for a very long time.

[wheelwright]

WW, I just love your posts. They give me so much to think about.

 

 

Hi jj.

 

LS has helped me work out the saint, the sinner, and the idiot in myself. Oh yeah- and the lover.

 

You seem to have a bit of all of the above, and I seldom disagree with what you say.

 

I've been a bit frightened of responding to you directly in recent times. Not because of you, but because I have to move on from where you are at in your A at the moment in terms of my A.

 

I think when I started my A my views on love were very like yours.

 

And now it is over, they are not so very different. With the exception I feel more responsibility to the BS. But that is about the gaslighting, not the love.

 

I like that you are here calling the shots for love. Someone has to. But the M version of love seems so powerful and important, here and IRL, I don't know that it will go anywhere. I am still re-thinking how I think about love in the light of having felt it so deeply and then got the bus treatment.

 

Make sure you treasure yourself in the face of his split

[jennie-jennie]

Hi jj.

 

LS has helped me work out the saint, the sinner, and the idiot in myself. Oh yeah- and the lover.

 

You seem to have a bit of all of the above, and I seldom disagree with what you say.

 

I've been a bit frightened of responding to you directly in recent times. Not because of you, but because I have to move on from where you are at in your A at the moment in terms of my A.

 

I think when I started my A my views on love were very like yours.

 

And now it is over, they are not so very different. With the exception I feel more responsibility to the BS. But that is about the gaslighting, not the love.

 

I like that you are here calling the shots for love. Someone has to. But the M version of love seems so powerful and important, here and IRL, I don't know that it will go anywhere. I am still re-thinking how I think about love in the light of having felt it so deeply and then got the bus treatment.

 

Make sure you treasure yourself in the face of his split

 

Hi WW, you know I live in a country where the marriage version of love does not at all have such a stronghold as in the US. We are doing the little we can here on LS to help the winds change.

 

I like that your views on love are pretty much the same now as during your affair. That shows that you were true to yourself then and that you are true to yourself now. It gives me hope for the future as well, should I one day find myself on the other side of this relationship, that I too will still hold the same values I hold now.

 

Take care,

Jennie

Edited August 7, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[NoIDidn't]

Why are cheaters so stupid? Because they are being ruled by emotions instead of common sense and integrity. Because they have turned logic on its head and settled instead for rationalizing and justifying things.

[White Flower]

I don't mean stupid for doing it, that is a given. I mean why are they so rubbish at it?!

 

The number of times we hear of facebook messages, texts, emails, browsing history, credit card statements being discovered by husbands and wives... seriously... do these people not have a clue how to cover their tracks properly? If I was a cheater I would be a NINJA and totally undiscoverable. It's not really that hard to delete a message as soon as you've read it, is it? Lucky for all my future partners that I'm not a cheater because I would never be discovered.

 

It just seems that most cheaters are really bad cheaters!! Although of course, it's only the bad ones that get caught.......

 

Why are cheaters so stupid? Because they are being ruled by emotions instead of common sense and integrity. Because they have turned logic on its head and settled instead for rationalizing and justifying things.

I think the OP was talking about being lazy at their game whereas you're talking about selfishness as stupidiy.

 

I will say that love, no matter if it's in an A or not, will make us stupid. We do all kinds of crazy things in both sitch's.

 

I remember printing out a schedule of events that MM was involved with and I left it in the printer tray. That was STUPID! When I came home, it was on my exH's desk. He never asked what it was for and I never had to explain it. As I mentioned in many other threads, our M was doomed anyway so discussing the A was pointless.

 

But I still felt stupid over that one.

[NoIDidn't]

I think the OP was talking about being lazy at their game whereas you're talking about selfishness as stupidiy.

 

I will say that love, no matter if it's in an A or not, will make us stupid. We do all kinds of crazy things in both sitch's.

 

I remember printing out a schedule of events that MM was involved with and I left it in the printer tray. That was STUPID! When I came home, it was on my exH's desk. He never asked what it was for and I never had to explain it. As I mentioned in many other threads, our M was doomed anyway so discussing the A was pointless.

 

But I still felt stupid over that one.

 

LOL. Leaving the item out in the printer (or even doing it at home to begin with) certainly qualifies as being a bad cheater.

 

It gives some evidence of truth to the husbands in this thread that contend that their W's didn't seem to care anymore about concealing the A when they decided they were going to leave anyway.

 

It has to suck for their exWs that they treated another human being so badly when they thought they were going to get what they wanted, and in the end didn't.

 

I doubt they would have mistreated their Hs if they didn't think they were going to end up with the person they cheated with - be it a MM or a SG.

[White Flower]

LOL. Leaving the item out in the printer (or even doing it at home to begin with) certainly qualifies as being a bad cheater.

 

It gives some evidence of truth to the husbands in this thread that contend that their W's didn't seem to care anymore about concealing the A when they decided they were going to leave anyway.

 

It has to suck for their exWs that they treated another human being so badly when they thought they were going to get what they wanted, and in the end didn't.

 

I doubt they would have mistreated their Hs if they didn't think they were going to end up with the person they cheated with - be it a MM or a SG.

I suppose I'll have to read the whole thread now because I'm at a loss here.

 

And I don't know if you're talking about me?

 

I don't think I mistreated my ex by having my A. Again, and I hope this doesn't sound boring after stating it so many times, my M was BAD anyway. My ex was treating ME badly. One might even say he pushed me into the arms of another man, but I had to go Country music on you, lol.

 

Not all cheaters need to leave one for the other. I am proof of that. I left my H long before I broached the subject of MM leaving his M. I didn't end up with him either. I'm pretty happy being alone currently as there are upsides to the single life. Eventually I will want something more, but I certainly don't need to leave one R only if there is another R waiting in the wings. I think those type of cheaters tend to be very insecure.

 

About my stupid act of leaving the event calendar in the printer tray, my ex was on a business trip and wasn't supposed to come home until the next day. On top of that, you have to deal with the sadness of not seeing your love for a few days, dwell on thoughts of what he is doing, work, bill paying, having kids wanting to drag you here and drag you there and voila! You have the perfect setup for a stupid mistake. Oh well.

 

I often wonder how I would have handled it if my ex confronted me on it. Since I never had to lie I probably would have fessed up or at the very least say it was the schedule of a new friend, a friend that didn't concern him since our M was dead anyway.

[Gfkr2]

LOL. Leaving the item out in the printer (or even doing it at home to begin with) certainly qualifies as being a bad cheater.

 

It gives some evidence of truth to the husbands in this thread that contend that their W's didn't seem to care anymore about concealing the A when they decided they were going to leave anyway.

 

It has to suck for their exWs that they treated another human being so badly when they thought they were going to get what they wanted, and in the end didn't.

 

I doubt they would have mistreated their Hs if they didn't think they were going to end up with the person they cheated with - be it a MM or a SG.

 

That's what is known as an unrepentant cheater. I am divorcing one of these animals.

 

Since D-day she is gambling all-in with her MM. StbxW is convinced the MM will leave his BW and children in a "few years". Ya right.

[carrie999]

I don't mean stupid for doing it, that is a given. I mean why are they so rubbish at it?!

 

The number of times we hear of facebook messages, texts, emails, browsing history, credit card statements being discovered by husbands and wives... seriously... do these people not have a clue how to cover their tracks properly? If I was a cheater I would be a NINJA and totally undiscoverable. It's not really that hard to delete a message as soon as you've read it, is it? Lucky for all my future partners that I'm not a cheater because I would never be discovered.

 

It just seems that most cheaters are really bad cheaters!! Although of course, it's only the bad ones that get caught.......

 

Depends on how often it happens and how deep the affair goes.