Phateless Posted July 27, 2010 Posted July 27, 2010 Straight up, your perspective is badly skewed about society if you honestly believe the above highlighted phrases. Yup, it's over-the-top. I sent this to six men this morning, where four have not yet responded. If they do respond, I'll add their responses. Here are the two responses: 1. Is this a joke? 2. An appeal to emotion, just like a woman. (tongue-in-cheek from H., you have to understand his sense of humour.) As with anything, it's not universal. Maybe it only applies to those of us who are considered pussies by the other guys.
GorillaTheater Posted July 27, 2010 Posted July 27, 2010 Even though it pains me a little to agree with TBF, she's right. This thread reeks of victimhood. "It's not fair" are the words of children. This is the real world. It is unfair from the point of view of the victim. It's practically their rallying cry. "Society" has certain expectations. So what? Pick and choose those obligations you're willing to meet and the hell with the rest. Could there be consequences? Maybe, but so what? All we're talking about here is that maybe people would think less of you. If you're being true to yourself, who cares what they think? It's not like you can control what other people think in any event.
deux ex machina Posted July 27, 2010 Posted July 27, 2010 ... "Society" has certain expectations. So what? Pick and choose those obligations you're willing to meet and the hell with the rest. Could there be consequences? Maybe, but so what? All we're talking about here is that maybe people would think less of you. If you're being true to yourself, who cares what they think? It's not like you can control what other people think in any event. That's essentially the message put across in the last part of the article.
Woggle Posted July 27, 2010 Posted July 27, 2010 Men need to stop being afraid of social ridicule and start doing what we want to do and what makes us happy. We also need to stop letting women define what manhood should be. That is like a dog telling a cat how to be a cat or a fish telling a bear how to be a bear. They don't know what it is to be a man so how can they tell us how to be one?
Phateless Posted July 27, 2010 Posted July 27, 2010 Even though it pains me a little to agree with TBF, she's right. This thread reeks of victimhood. "It's not fair" are the words of children. This is the real world. It is unfair from the point of view of the victim. It's practically their rallying cry. "Society" has certain expectations. So what? Pick and choose those obligations you're willing to meet and the hell with the rest. Could there be consequences? Maybe, but so what? All we're talking about here is that maybe people would think less of you. If you're being true to yourself, who cares what they think? It's not like you can control what other people think in any event. The purpose of this is not to get everyone to feel sorry for men, only to acknowledge that the double standards of sexism flow in BOTH DIRECTIONS, not only the one. Being a feminist means EQUALITY, not elevating one gender over the other, regardless of which gender that is.
threebyfate Posted July 27, 2010 Posted July 27, 2010 As with anything, it's not universal. Maybe it only applies to those of us who are considered pussies by the other guys.I have no idea why you feel you fall into the pussy category. You and I have swapped on-forum posts about personal choice and responsibility. Men need to stop being afraid of social ridicule and start doing what we want to do and what makes us happy. We also need to stop letting women define what manhood should be. That is like a dog telling a cat how to be a cat or a fish telling a bear how to be a bear. They don't know what it is to be a man so how can they tell us how to be one?If your cat died today, it would be a woman or women's fault. Get a grip. The purpose of this is not to get everyone to feel sorry for men, only to acknowledge that the double standards of sexism flow in BOTH DIRECTIONS, not only the one. Being a feminist means EQUALITY, not elevating one gender over the other, regardless of which gender that is.Where do you get elevation of one gender over another? I don't see it being expressed anywhere. As for Feminism, what has this got to do with displaying men as grossly exaggerated victims of society? Why even drag Feminism into this unless you feel that women are mothers to all men, responsible for taking care of them?
Phateless Posted July 27, 2010 Posted July 27, 2010 I have no idea why you feel you fall into the pussy category. You and I have swapped on-forum posts about personal choice and responsibility. Agreed, and that's what being a man means to ME, but in order to be socially successful I've had to learn to play the gender role a little bit more accurately. As for Feminism, what has this got to do with displaying men as grossly exaggerated victims of society? Why even drag Feminism into this unless you feel that women are mothers to all men, responsible for taking care of them? I think feminism is often misinterpreted as making up for previous oppression, and compensating for it, as opposed to being equal from here on out. Does that make sense? A lot of women expect chivalry, yet resent chauvinism. In an equal society we should do away with both. I didn't see that article as portraying men as victims of society. Quite the contrary, it specifically mentioned that MOST sexism still works in men's favor, however it pointed out the oft-overlooked cases where sexism works against men as well. That's all. Sexism hurts women, but don't forget that it sometimes hurts men as well.
Woggle Posted July 27, 2010 Posted July 27, 2010 Feminism is not misinterpreted as that. It is right seen as that.
threebyfate Posted July 27, 2010 Posted July 27, 2010 Agreed, and that's what being a man means to ME, but in order to be socially successful I've had to learn to play the gender role a little bit more accurately.Do you agree that it's your choice to play the gender role? For example, I don't play up the gender role, enjoying some historically male interests like cars, economics, finance, politics, hockey, baseball, etc. If it's turned off some men in the past from enjoying these interests or being considered too strong and not as feminine as the stereotype, so be it. It honestly doesn't bother me to be rejected for these interests since being myself is more important to me and has ensured that anyone I got involved with, knew it was me and wasn't disillusioned. I think feminism is often misinterpreted as making up for previous oppression, and compensating for it, as opposed to being equal from here on out. Does that make sense? The old fashioned militant Feminism would be where the above misinterpretation came from. This type of Feminism has almost gone the way of the dodo bird. What's replaced it is liberal and third-wave Feminism where laws are forwarded or maintained for equality sake, as well as the prevalent belief that Feminism is about freedom of choice. If a woman wants to be a SAHM, she has this choice. If a woman wants to be a careerist, she has this choice. But with every choice comes responsibility to make good choices that lead up to the fruition of goals. A lot of women expect chivalry, yet resent chauvinism. In an equal society we should do away with both.I'm someone who sees chivalry as common courtesy. I wouldn't allow the door to slam in anyone's face and will hold the door open for any gender. I've helped little old ladies with their groceries since they are weaker than I am. By the same token, I've had men help me with my luggage or large boxes. I've even had a large military looking female security guard, help me get through security and customs quickly by grabbing my luggage for me and putting me at the front of lineups, so I could catch my connecting flight. I didn't see that article as portraying men as victims of society. Quite the contrary, it specifically mentioned that MOST sexism still works in men's favor, however it pointed out the oft-overlooked cases where sexism works against men as well. That's all. Sexism hurts women, but don't forget that it sometimes hurts men as well.I guess it's difficult for me to see past the gross exaggeration. As soon as I see gross exaggeration like this, my rational mind shuts it down and discards it. Very male of me. I also reject many of the b/s pressures that society purports to put on women, sitting firmly in the position that if nothing legal stands in a woman's way, it's up to her to take responsibility for herself.
Phateless Posted July 27, 2010 Posted July 27, 2010 I guess it's difficult for me to see past the gross exaggeration. As soon as I see gross exaggeration like this, my rational mind shuts it down and discards it. Very male of me. I do agree that it's my choice to play the gender roles or not. What did you think was gross exaggeration, btw? Obviously there was some exaggeration strictly for the goal of making the point, but I don't recall anything that jumped out at me as completely unrealistic. This kind of furthers my point tho... as a woman, you probably don't realize how many of these contradicting expectations of manliness actually do ring true. And yes, I offer to help PEOPLE as well, men or women. What I was referring to was not common courtesy so much as the arbitrary expectation for the man to pay, and things along those lines. For what it's worth I think it's HOT that you're into cars and do trackdays, and I'm always excited to see women who are mtn biking or motorcycling. I also love salsa and swing dancing.
Author Engadget Posted July 28, 2010 Author Posted July 28, 2010 Did this really have to become a gender war? Yeesh people.
Ariadne Posted July 28, 2010 Posted July 28, 2010 For thousands of years, men have had to have the sole job of protecting their family and providing for them. The reality is that we live in a world that is so expensive that both incomes are often needed! Yes, thanks to the progress the women now are liberated.
Ariadne Posted July 28, 2010 Posted July 28, 2010 And about the article about the stupid things expected of men, yes, I agree they were pretty stupid.
Phateless Posted July 29, 2010 Posted July 29, 2010 And about the article about the stupid things expected of men, yes, I agree they were pretty stupid. I agree, they are stupid, but that does not change the fact that I feel those societal pressures.
jamesum Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 I agree, they are stupid, but that does not change the fact that I feel those societal pressures. Save money, learn Swedish and move to Sweden.
BS76 Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 Save money, learn Swedish and move to Sweden. Sweden is arguably the most feminized country on the planet right now. Iceland is up there too though. The anglosphere as a whole, aka the west, is probably 3rd behind those two.
jamesum Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 Sweden is arguably the most feminized country on the planet right now. Iceland is up there too though. The anglosphere as a whole, aka the west, is probably 3rd behind those two. In Sweden, 64% of women admit to have cheated on their partners while 60% of men admit to have cheated on their partners. That statistic alone speaks huge volume. I mean a country where the women cheat more than the men? :laugh:
Phateless Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 In Sweden, 64% of women admit to have cheated on their partners while 60% of men admit to have cheated on their partners. That statistic alone speaks huge volume. I mean a country where the women cheat more than the men? :laugh: Or at least more women admit to it. You could easily chalk this up to a difference in what people define as "cheating."
sam light Posted July 31, 2010 Posted July 31, 2010 50,000 year old traditions wont change completely in mere 30 years. Although in Scandinavia gender equality has changed at a much faster rate than anywhere else in the world. The self important Scandinavian ego hasn't changed at all. The swedish over compensate for their cowardly role in WWII, a role they repeated in face of Stalin's post war threats. Nice furniture. Somebody should take it from them.
jamesum Posted July 31, 2010 Posted July 31, 2010 The self important Scandinavian ego hasn't changed at all. The swedish over compensate for their cowardly role in WWII, a role they repeated in face of Stalin's post war threats. Nice furniture. Somebody should take it from them. Yeah, if everyone was like Sweden, there would be less wars in this world ... In all primates, matriarchal culture is always less violent.
Tayla Posted August 1, 2010 Posted August 1, 2010 Interesting articles in some ways. I disagree with any poster whos mentality runs amock with the SUCK it UP attitude. Talk about lack of empathy.. Dont come to my neck of the woods we actually have this illness of spreading empathy and compassion and still manage to plow our fields ! Best I can hope is that folks stop genderizing things and start humanizing ...
Phateless Posted August 1, 2010 Posted August 1, 2010 Best I can hope is that folks stop genderizing things and start humanizing ... Well said.
jamesum Posted August 1, 2010 Posted August 1, 2010 Best I can hope is that folks stop genderizing things and start humanizing ... Yup, the truth is there is no such a thing as natural gender roles. The matriarchal bonobo culture shows that female led society is just as natural. The reason most human cultures today are patriarchal is because in the past, matriarchal societies tended to get conquered by patriarchal tribes.
sam light Posted August 2, 2010 Posted August 2, 2010 Yeah, if everyone was like Sweden, there would be less wars in this world ... In all primates, matriarchal culture is always less violent. It was the non swedes of this world that saved Europe from Hitler. It was the non Swedes that prevented Stalin from taking over all of Europe. Peace via collaboration with vile dictators is selling one's soul. How many Allied airmen did Sweden imprison.
jamesum Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 It was the non swedes of this world that saved Europe from Hitler. It was the non Swedes that prevented Stalin from taking over all of Europe. Peace via collaboration with vile dictators is selling one's soul. How many Allied airmen did Sweden imprison. If Stalin and Hitler were Swedes, WWII wouldnt have happened.
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