Setting Boundaries in Platonic Friendships

[SassyKitten]

I can dig that, definitely. One way I have changed a lot in my dating habits since I was younger is I tend to lay out what I expect as far as how I'm treated very quickly.

[EasyHeart]

The difference between a girlfriend and a friend who is a girl is sexual attraction. You don't date or sleep with friends. As soon as you start playing word games and tell guys that you want to be "friends" rather than date, you are opening up a massive can of confusion and inviting people to get hurt. If you have any sense of decency, please don't play these kinds of games with people's feelings.

 

But you can distinguish between being "just friends" and being "friends first". I think that is what you are trying to say, rather than playing games by telling guys you want to be "friends". How many more fricking threads do you have to read on LS where someone says "What does It mean when she says she wants to be 'friends'?" to know that it would be an absolute disaster if you started playing this game, too.

 

If you tell guys that you are interested in dating them, but you want to be "friends first", some guys will run and some guys will be excited. But at least your intentions will be clear and you won't be playing this BS 'friends' game!

 

I don't think the three date kissing rule is a big deal; I'd be more concerned about sex. I've met women who say they won't have sex with someone until they've dated three months, and I think that kind of rule is fine. It will definitely tell you whether the guy is interested in a relationship or a fling.

[zengirl]

If you've had trouble in the past, "Friends first," and things like date-rules to kiss someone can be helpful. But instead of going on the defensive about it (I've had some bad experiences, I want to make sure you're not a jerk), even in your head, I find it's more useful to be positive about it (I want to get to know you, because I find you attractive but to me dating and attraction are really about the person you are). Being withholding about it tends to put people off.

 

I tend to wait a bit to get physical, just because my physical attraction is tied to my mental/emotional attraction---until I know a guy well enough to dig more than his face/body/chemicals, I don't really feel that surge of attraction. I mean, I can feel attracted, but maybe I'm just used to the deeper level of attraction now, it's like the instant-physical-attraction is junk food to me. I honestly have no craving for most junk food either. It was a matter of re-aligning my habits and thinking, in general. If that makes any sense.

 

/I believe the essential foundation of a romantic relationship is not friendship, but sexual attraction. Your strategy won't work: What you want to do, igniting a friendship romantically, cannot be planned and arranged. somedude81 speaks wisely.

I agree with not being able to arrange a friendship igniting attractively. It can happen, but you can’t plan it, really. That doesn’t mean she can’t make some male friends, of course.

 

But sexual attraction is not the foundation of a relationship. Foundation is what you build upon; it has to last forever. Attraction comes, goes, returns, shimmies, and changes with time. It just does. It ebbs and flows. It’s more like the decorations. It might make you notice the house, but you don’t want it under your feet. I think “friendship” is a solid foundation for a relationship, but that can also just be dating-friendship (the kind you develop when dating, where you appreciate each other as friends as well as romantically).

[BentSpine]

Sex is no more of a necessity for a guy than it is for a girl.

If you believe that then you'll resent any man's sexual advances. And resentment will lead to relationship troubles. I realise that you're terrified of not having control of the outcome. Unfortunately, I think that you'll repell interested, confident males with your timelines policies and ultimatums (laying it out verbally in the beginning). At the same time I believe you wont, by holding out, weed out the one's only interested in sex. But I know there are men who will nevertheless submit to you and your whims, they do it because they have few other options. All this is my viewpoint but right now you don't share it. So my advice to you today is, if you want to be friends first, you'll have to spend time with men who you don't feel that attractive to, in the hopes that one day a spark will ignite. That way, you won't risk anything (except your friendship).

[BentSpine]

zengirl, you have expressed several good points in your posts the last days. But I'll disagree with you here:

But sexual attraction is not the foundation of a relationship.

Not for a woman, but for me as a man sex is the basic requirement for a romantic relationship. Remember the saying: Women give sex to get love but men give love to get sex. Without sex, my eyes will always wander and my thoughts will be preoccupied with finding another woman to court. Spotting another woman brings the HOPE of sex to the starved man, just as the sight of a ship brings hope to a cast away. If the sex frequency whithers, the eject button is activated. Friendship is only needed once you start spending non-sexual time together between bed time.

Foundation is what you build upon; it has to last forever. Attraction comes, goes, returns, shimmies, and changes with time.

I'd say the attraction only changes if the man or woman gain weight (on their gut or face) or if the woman cuts her hair short. Edited July 26, 2010 by BentSpine

[zengirl]

zengirl, you have expressed several good points in your posts the last days. But I'll disagree with you here: Not for a woman, but for me as a man sex is the basic requirement for a romantic relationship.

 

For the record, I wouldn't consider a romantic relationship fully realized without sex either.

 

Remember the saying: Women give sex to get love but men give love to get sex. Without sex, my eyes will always wander and my thoughts will be preoccupied with finding another woman to court. Spotting another woman brings the HOPE of sex to the starved man, just as the sight of a ship brings hope to a cast away. If the sex frequency whithers, the eject button is activated. Friendship is only needed once you start spending non-sexual time together between bed time.

 

I don't give sex to get love. Sex isn't something I trade for anything. That seems tragically unhealthy. Anyone who can't stick around for a time, without sex, building something wouldn't be someone I would date. At some point, a relationship needs sex, but I don't know anyone with a successful relationship that was built on sex first, even if they had sex fairly early. (And most I know happened to wait a bit for sex -- not talking years, but they got to know each other.) All of these relationships have awesome friendships, as well as physical attraction.

 

I know lots of guys who look for love, as well as sex. They'll certainly have sex in the meantime without it (and so will plenty of women), but they understand that sex isn't love. I think a lot of guys are turned off by frigid/withholding girls, but healthy ones know that waiting for sex doesn't mean the girl is necessarily withholding. Heck, I've been in a relationship with a guy who waits awhile just to kiss a girl. We were both folks who waited for sex, until we were in the relationship, but he actually doesn't like to kiss on the first date, or even first few, till he knows he wants to ask the girl to be his girlfriend. Whereas I am not quite that conservative. We had an awesome sex life. So, basically, I'm saying, people have all different views of sex.

 

Your way doesn't seem a way to build an awesome, life-lasting relationship --- friendship being something that's only needed "in between bedtime together." Maybe it works for some folks, but I've never seen it work out long-term. So, I'll stick with what I've seen/experienced working.

 

I'd say the attraction only changes if the man or woman gain weight (on their gut or face) or if the woman cuts her hair short.

 

With foundations, I'm talking about relationships that last. People age. There's not an eighty year old in the world who can begin to be as attractive as he/she was at twenty. Also, if someone cutting their hair is going to change the foundation of your relationship. . . Wow! That's a pretty flimsy foundation. People keep their relationships through cancer, where they waste away and lose their hair, and love each other anyway. And then they grow old, get wrinkly, and still adore each other every day. That's what I mean by foundation.

[alyssatranswarrior]

This whole "attachment to the reciever" concept you mentioned is bull.

 

You are victimizing sex you have consented in. You are a women what the hell else is there but to accept a penis into you??

 

I wish you and everyone to have mental health of the highest order and to be in relationships they feel validated by. But you are playing feminist positions stating that you are putting yourself more out at risk in dating because you have a vagina.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Thanks everyone, good advice! Now would you say most guys would be ok with not kissing before we've had the exclusivity talk?

 

I think your moving in the right direction with this line of thought.

 

Listen... some guys are not going to be Ok with waiting for you. Guess what... those guys didn't think you were worth it.

 

If I liked you... I would wait, but you would have to be VERY upfront with me about how you wanted to do things.

 

The original idea of just being platonic friends first... I just don't see that working out well.

[kdark]

This whole "attachment to the reciever" concept you mentioned is bull.

 

You are victimizing sex you have consented in. You are a women what the hell else is there but to accept a penis into you??

 

I wish you and everyone to have mental health of the highest order and to be in relationships they feel validated by. But you are playing feminist positions stating that you are putting yourself more out at risk in dating because you have a vagina.

 

I was getting this vibe from her as well. From that statement and because she said that society puts more pressure on women to be prudes than men.

 

I wonder how much of the OP's fear of getting attached too soon to guys she sleeps with comes from the fear of being found out to be a "slut"...

[zengirl]

I'm not into the whole receiver/attachment thing either, but the OP also seems to be acknowledging her personal attachment issues (Re: her comments about how she gets very attached just from kissing, personally). I know plenty of women who don't get attached via sex, plenty who do. It seems to be more of an issue for women than men, but some men do, too, from what I understand. Really, I find sex without attachment uninteresting, which is why I don't have casual sex (No judgment, honestly; I think of it the same way I think of, say, cliff-diving --- I'm not into it, and it's too much trouble for me ever to go do it, as such, but anyone who wants to, totally should), so I can't claim to understand/be an expert on any of that.

 

BUT. . .

 

From that statement and because she said that society puts more pressure on women to be prudes than men.

Isn't that true?

 

I know many men who will freely admit they have had 20+ sex partners. I don't know many women that will. How about you?

Edited July 26, 2010 by zengirl

[Untouchable_Fire]

Isn't that true?

I know many men who will freely admit they have had 20+ sex partners. I don't know many women that will. How about you?

 

That is one double-standard I refuse to reconsider.

[zengirl]

That is one double-standard I refuse to reconsider.

 

What do you mean? You support it remaining a double standard, or you don't think there is a double standard? (I'm confused.)

[Untouchable_Fire]

What do you mean? You support it remaining a double standard, or you don't think there is a double standard? (I'm confused.)

 

I agree with you that there is definitely a double standard.

 

I've dated women who have had 2 partners, and I've dated women who have had 50+... and I can say through honest experience, that women who decouple sex and emotion are mental. I've had some very, very bad experiences with that.

[zengirl]

I agree with you that there is definitely a double standard.

 

I've dated women who have had 2 partners, and I've dated women who have had 50+... and I can say through honest experience, that women who decouple sex and emotion are mental. I've had some very, very bad experiences with that.

 

Aw, some are just free spirits. (Some are mental, sure.) I have a friend, and while I don't think she's at 50+ (I don't exactly keep a tally), she has definitely slept with a fair amount of men here, without getting attached to them. . . She also travels bunches, goes through periods of celibacy as well as fasting for spiritual awakening, is vegan, works with orphans, and is an awesome person. She's what I imagined somebody misplaced from the 60s would be like, except there aren't any drugs here.

 

Generally, I'm sure plenty of women with the high numbers just lie about them anyway.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Aw, some are just free spirits. (Some are mental, sure.) I have a friend, and while I don't think she's at 50+ (I don't exactly keep a tally), she has definitely slept with a fair amount of men here, without getting attached to them. . . She also travels bunches, goes through periods of celibacy as well as fasting for spiritual awakening, is vegan, works with orphans, and is an awesome person. She's what I imagined somebody misplaced from the 60s would be like, except there aren't any drugs here.

Generally, I'm sure plenty of women with the high numbers just lie about them anyway.

 

Your friend sounds neat... I probably wouldn't touch her given the knowlege... but I'm sure I could be friends.

 

I have a feeling that a few of my xGF's were complete liars about this stuff... one in particular started trying to only have sex when I bought her something. I ran away quickly.

 

Anyway... most guys like a challenge... and I'm not interested in something that is challenging for me an not for another guy. So as far as I'm concerned easy girls can get lost.

[SassyKitten]

It can also be said in my experience that men who decouple sex and emotion are often mental. It's not about me being afraid to be found a "slut", it's about the fact that I have found from experience that the more attachment there is between me and a guy I am having sex with, the less painful sex is. Guys who I don't feel that attachment to often tend to be selfish and not as considerate of what gets me off, let alone my comfort.

 

The way I look at sex in relationships is this: I love sex, but I am also a snob when it comes to sex. Therefore, I don't want to waste time having low-quality uncommitted sex where I could easily be thrown asaid the next morning for another woman when I could be spending that time seeking quality sex on tap that comes from a relationship where there is some committment. Not mecessarily marriage, but definitely exclusivity!

 

Which might sound boring to some, but then again, if I think about 3 month stretches where I was in a relationship I was definitely getting astronomically more sex than I was in 3 month stretches where I was doing one-night stands, the latter being when I was much younger.

 

Anyway, I really don't get how some guys think it's alright to sleep around and "try me on" before considering the exclusivity talk. A penis is something I really don't like sharing.

[Engadget]

You've gotta be outright and honest about it. There was an attractive girl who was cool, but who was also kind of crazy that I liked hanging out with and I had to friend zone her. We talked about it and everything, admitted we could be involved one day but for now would be friends.

[EasyHeart]

Anyway, I really don't get how some guys think it's alright to sleep around and "try me on" before considering the exclusivity talk. A penis is something I really don't like sharing.

It's not alright. The solution is to NOT DATE this kind of man.

 

I never understand women who date creepy losers and then complain about them. You CHOOSE who you date. Don't date creepy losers; date men who love and respect you, and then you won't have to deal with this kind of problem.

[SassyKitten]

Yeah, but unfortunately my problem is my creepy loser radar sucks. Which may be another topic for another thread.

[phineas]

Anyway, I really don't get how some guys think it's alright to sleep around and "try me on" before considering the exclusivity talk. A penis is something I really don't like sharing.

 

Honestly?

Just because I won't commit to a woman before sex doesn't mean i'm sleeping with other women.

 

It just means I don't want to commit to a woman that won't do oral & thinks missionary position in the dark under the covers once a week is all the sex a man needs & any more = "just wants me for sex"

 

When I was younger I got sucked into way too many relationships like that. I was unhappy but thought it was better than being alone.

 

I don't feel that way any more.

 

Basically, the sex needs to be good & often. If not, i'd rather stay single & free.

 

When a woman tells me "friends first", "I don't want a relationship based on sex", or "I don't do the FWB thing" before we've even kissed I assume she just isn't pshyically attracted to me & loose interest because women that are attracted to me go for the sex then tell me those things to let me know i'm not going to continue getting a free ride without making some kind of commitment.

[SassyKitten]

With me, sex would be often, definitely, but not the basis of our relationship! A huge part of me still feels suss about saying things like that after we've had sex for the first time, as the guy often ends up running after that.

 

I guess a huge question in my mind right now is how many dates does it take for a man to consider a relationship an exclusive relationship?

[BentSpine]

Yes zengirl, your defining quality of a successful relationship seems to be that it is long lasting. Not uncommon wish in many women. Look, I realise my thoughts seem strange to you because we're incompatible. All in all, you have an ordinary typical female view of relationships. That's not a problem. Just remember that there is also the male point of view, which is equally valid. And now for the conclusion...

People keep their relationships through cancer, where they waste away and lose their hair, and love each other anyway.

When someone is dying, you don't care much about things that would otherwise matter long term, such as appearance.

And then they grow old, get wrinkly, and still adore each other every day.

This is close to what I refer to as The Rocking Chair Fantasy, which many women seem to harbour: Both retired sitting on the porch in rocking chairs, both having as much testosterone (and sex drive) as one another (zilch that is). The woman can finally tell the pesky sex thing goodbye. With regards to wrinkles, I'm telling ye fir yer own peace of mind, zengirl: wrinkles are virtually a non-issue compared to a bulging waist line.

[MrNate]

With me, sex would be often, definitely, but not the basis of our relationship! A huge part of me still feels suss about saying things like that after we've had sex for the first time, as the guy often ends up running after that.

 

I guess a huge question in my mind right now is how many dates does it take for a man to consider a relationship an exclusive relationship?

 

It's alright sassy, you got me. I'll be over there in my shining armor shortly to solve this problem.

[zengirl]

This is close to what I refer to as The Rocking Chair Fantasy, which many women seem to harbour: Both retired sitting on the porch in rocking chairs, both having as much testosterone (and sex drive) as one another (zilch that is). The woman can finally tell the pesky sex thing goodbye..

 

First of all: Some old people have sex, you know. I don't really want to have a discussion about that, but I'm not sure why you'd assume those aging years would be sexless. Second of all: I know some men who have the Rocking Chair Fantasy too. And have a pair of very-much-still-in-love grandparents that have lived it. But, yes, our ideas are incompatible. I just think it's silly to assert your ideas as the only male POV; I'd never assert mine as the only female POV. I know lots of men who want to build a relationship, have a family, and form lifelong partnerships.

 

It just means I don't want to commit to a woman that won't do oral & thinks missionary position in the dark under the covers once a week is all the sex a man needs & any more = "just wants me for sex"

 

.....When a woman tells me "friends first", "I don't want a relationship based on sex", or "I don't do the FWB thing" before we've even kissed I assume she just isn't pshyically attracted to me & loose interest because women that are attracted to me go for the sex then tell me those things to let me know i'm not going to continue getting a free ride without making some kind of commitment.

 

Everyone's welcome to their own opinions and way of doing things, but that's a bit of a fallacy. But I've gone slow with plenty of guys I was verysexually attracted to, and we've had a great sex life later. I just want to be attracted to anybody I sleep with on multiple levels, and I want them to be attracted to me on multiple levels. As SassyKitten said, it's about quality.

[SassyKitten]

I'm definitely swearing off dating for right now!! But it's good to know these things for future reference.