pureinheart Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 BULL - that is NOT parental alienation. Not by a long shot. oh please.... in YOUR view may be, that doesn't mean you get to decide for anyone else. If the cheater and his partner can't stand the heat, don't do the deed. Kids aren't stupid - and eventually it WILL come out. More than likely they will hear daddy's new girlfriend dissing their mom .. and don't say that doesn't happen, because it does and quite frequently too. :sick:
fooled once Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 Allow to me introduce myself BNB irresponisble parent, by your estimation. I not only discussed sexual issues with my then teens, it started when they asked the first questions about sex. Yes I discussed my teen exploits, the reasons for those choices and the consequences of those choices. My reasons for discussing my sexual history was to inform them of the time frame, late 70's early 80's, and the things that I didn't have to deal with(AIDS) and the things I did(pregnancy scare). I discussed with my children sex because I raised them and not only were they mature enough to handle each discussion we had, each discussion was more detailed than the last based on their matureity level. I recognize some people raise their children more sheltered in different areas of life...for me sex wasn't one of those areas. I only wish I had been more open with them about myt emotional difficulities so as to answer some of the questions about my mood swings. Not all teens are grossed out by discussing sex nor discussing it with parents. That response is generated by the parents attitudes toward sex. And frankly I find it gross that people who are involved with married people feel it is okay to introduce their children to someone else's spouse. So while you may question the parenting skills of a parent who won't lie or hide their sex life with their spouse, I question the parent who won't hide their affair from their children with another's spouse. To each his own I guess. Lastly, as evidenced on this site, even adults can't handle adult issues. Age is only one compenent when dealing with life maturely. Guess what Bent, I talked to my teen aged son about sex to and even told him I would buy him condoms if he wished (and after he turned 16, he routinely has gotten them in his stocking each year as a stocking stuffer ). I wanted him to be aware of STD's, pregnancy, etc. I wanted him to be smart about having sex, not stupid. He knows I have sex with his stepfather. He knows his father and I had sex. He knows his grandparents have sex. I know my parents have sex - still very active at 67 years old. It is running joke about my parents sex life. I am not grossed out by them having sex. It is part of how they show each other they love each other and after almost 50 years together, I admire that they still have the hots for each other I hope when I am their age, I am still get butterflies and go all gooey for my H I am glad that my parents and me and my H have shown my son about love, passion and even sex . He is growing up with a healthy view on it; not some hidden back alley kinda show and tell.
fooled once Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 Do you want a pat on the back here? Teenagers especially don't want to think about "old" people having sex. Why even brag about it? EEG What are you talking about? Who is bragging? My son knows his grandparents have sex -- he walked IN on them. I didn't say I joked with HIM about them having sex - me and my parents joke about it. Oh for heaven's sake, people will ASSume just about anything won't they? He loves that they are "2 old people who are in love" (his words). he doesn't see that with his father's parents or any other adults in his life (outside of me and his grandparents). It amazes me how some people take things and turn them into something gross. How sad .... how incredibly sad.
bentnotbroken Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 Do you want a pat on the back here? Teenagers especially don't want to think about "old" people having sex. Why even brag about it? EEG Since I have had teens and have taught teens and I have a youth group of teens, maybe they are different than you and the teens you know.....in denial.
Fieldsofgold Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 I hear you. I was in the dark while all our friends knew (we had all mutual friends since we grew up in the same hood). My family knew. My mother knew (she caught him shortly before I found out). My dog knew (yep! he walked the dog to her house every night). You know what happened to me?? I felt betrayed by every single friend I've since the 8th grade. I felt betrayed by my family, my mother and I felt betrayed by my dog. I was left is complete solitude and darkness. Every one I knew had lied to me. (I know what some of you are going to say, that nobody lied but yes they did). Why? because it was "nobody's business" but everyone entertained the gossip! Everyone but me. So after many broke friendships, deteriorated relationship with my family, mother and dog... You best believe that I told EVERY SINGLE PERSON that didn't know. Whoever asks me what happened with my exH and I. I tell it like it is and whoever doesn't like it... I DONT GIVE A FACK! Because I sure didn't like being lied to and being everyone's fool. Funny you should mention this (the bolded, esp.) I have adult children and teen aged grandchildren. I volunteer with a teen group, and am the "cool grandma" to a lot of the area teens. Now I realize that the "child" SL told, was an adult and not a child. But since so much discussion has come up about telling the kids, I have to say this: it is my experience that kids feel exactly like Mimo felt, when "adults" try to "protect" them from the truth. I spend A LOT of time working with teens in patching up family relations because the kid wasn't told the truth. I have seen the anger and hurt, the "moral indignation" these teens have, just as Mimo describes it, because they weren't being told the truth. and let me tell you - no one can have moral indignation like a teenager! And it's not "jealousy with a halo" either. One of the reasons the kids come to me with their troubles, I believe, is because I respect them enough to tell them the truth, and they know it. To keep the truth from them makes them feel they are regarded as incompetent, less than, it is a serious disrespect to them, and they will not likely ever really trust you again.
SidLyon Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 How did her son take the news...in one of the replies you said something to the nature of his acceptance? I didn't quite understand. You mentioned being from Australia, I had heard that your country was quite accepting of A's and things of that nature...hear say though I've never been there... I don't think I ever said he accepted it - can you point to the post because that isn't the impression I meant to convey. I did say that he didn't take the matter up with me but with his mother who betrayed her husband and family. She (the OW) was the one who told me this. I gather he was really upset with her (probably an understatement) as were his grandparents (who did tell me this). They have the ability to determine whether the younger lad is their biological grandson or not, so there is no need for them to agonize about it. Australia is a fairly secular country compared to the USA although Christianity is the most prevalent religion. Affairs are not really any more acceptable here than in the USA or the UK. I was born in the UK and my H was born here but moved to UK when he was a few weeks old. My brother is a US citizen so we have strong links in all 3 countries.
NoIDidn't Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 I really appreciate all the supporters of the H.G. Wells quote proving it to be entirely accurate. Obviously the moral indignation over a BS protecting themselves and their families is just "Jealousy with a halo". "How dare she tell them about me before I had the chance to lie to them and con them with niceness?" "Hey, telling the truth about my role in tearing apart your family is PARENTAL ALIENATION". Yes, Mr. Wells was so correct. All the "halos" on over the "children" and the "moral indignation" towards the person that actually did something that wasn't in their benefit. Yep. With a halo. I guess I change my mind about disagreeing with it. Its obviously QUITE true.
SidLyon Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 I really appreciate all the supporters of the H.G. Wells quote proving it to be entirely accurate. Obviously the moral indignation over a BS protecting themselves and their families is just "Jealousy with a halo". "How dare she tell them about me before I had the chance to lie to them and con them with niceness?" "Hey, telling the truth about my role in tearing apart your family is PARENTAL ALIENATION". Yes, Mr. Wells was so correct. All the "halos" on over the "children" and the "moral indignation" towards the person that actually did something that wasn't in their benefit. Yep. With a halo. I guess I change my mind about disagreeing with it. Its obviously QUITE true. Exactly! Some of the OW on this site are doing a pretty good job of trying to convince me of the truth of the statement too. Being honest though I see no genuine and automatic connection between moral indignation and jealousy with or without a halo.
Mimolicious Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 Do you want a pat on the back here? Teenagers especially don't want to think about "old" people having sex. Why even brag about it? EEG Says who? Can you speak for teenagers? They don't think about "old" people having sex because they are too busy having sex themselves. Do you see what's on tv nowadays? I think having grandparents alive who are getting their groove on is the least of issues with society and the younger generation. We actually poke on my grandparents because they stopped being intimate over 30yrs ago. My poor grandma! What a wasted life:o honoring a man that was never faithful to her. I would have screwed the pool boy. Dead a$$!
sadintexas Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 That's because a relationship with a parent is a completely different thing than a relationship with a spouse. A R with a parent is as close blood bond as it can be. We have one mother and one father and this is something that will never change. They can be also parents of other people and it will stillnot change the fact that they are our parents. They can have different R of any kind with other people and they're still our mother/father. A marriage, on the other hand, is based on emotions, promises, decisions and committments, so something of a completey different nature and less "solid" than ties of blood. And most importantly it is based on EXCLUSIVITY. Gosh... isn't that SO obvious.. My point was that there are only two willing participants in a love triangle. BS's aren't even aware such a triangle exists. My response was to something JJ said earlier, about basically children are affected but not participants (including BS). BS's don't choose to be participants either so the damage is just as valid.
sadintexas Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 The MP is in a relationship with two men/women, not with any children. The children are affected by their father/mother having a relationship with two men/women, but they are not participating in these relationships. The BS is also not aware that they are participating either so how does that make them any less of an innocent party? Actually the BS is doing nothing but participating in her M and family.
Mimolicious Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 Funny you should mention this (the bolded, esp.) I have adult children and teen aged grandchildren. I volunteer with a teen group, and am the "cool grandma" to a lot of the area teens. Now I realize that the "child" SL told, was an adult and not a child. But since so much discussion has come up about telling the kids, I have to say this: it is my experience that kids feel exactly like Mimo felt, when "adults" try to "protect" them from the truth. I spend A LOT of time working with teens in patching up family relations because the kid wasn't told the truth. I have seen the anger and hurt, the "moral indignation" these teens have, just as Mimo describes it, because they weren't being told the truth. and let me tell you - no one can have moral indignation like a teenager! And it's not "jealousy with a halo" either. One of the reasons the kids come to me with their troubles, I believe, is because I respect them enough to tell them the truth, and they know it. To keep the truth from them makes them feel they are regarded as incompetent, less than, it is a serious disrespect to them, and they will not likely ever really trust you again. Off the subject but in relations and another example of being lied to about things that will have perhaps the deepest impact in a person's life: My father was murdered when I was 2. My family suggested that my mother lied to me and told me that he went away on a trip. They felt that I was too small to process the fact that he had gone to "heaven". Lucky for me, my mother didn't listen.... she told me and I have known the truth since I can remember. I didn't grow up wondering why my dad was on a "trip" and never cared to look for me or come back to be with me. I would have hated him and would have felt very much abandoned. Probably would have spent years looking for him, yet he is dead. Eventually one day, I would have ran into someone that would have told me the truth and I would have lost both parents. I would have held it against my mother for lying even if she did it with the greatest intention. In reality, the truth always comes out. Nothing can be hidden forever.
Fieldsofgold Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 Off the subject but in relations and another example of being lied to about things that will have perhaps the deepest impact in a person's life: My father was murdered when I was 2. My family suggested that my mother lied to me and told me that he went away on a trip. They felt that I was too small to process the fact that he had gone to "heaven". Lucky for me, my mother didn't listen.... she told me and I have known the truth since I can remember. I didn't grow up wondering why my dad was on a "trip" and never cared to look for me or come back to be with me. I would have hated him and would have felt very much abandoned. Probably would have spent years looking for him, yet he is dead. Eventually one day, I would have ran into someone that would have told me the truth and I would have lost both parents. I would have held it against my mother for lying even if she did it with the greatest intention. In reality, the truth always comes out. Nothing can be hidden forever. Oh, Mimo, I am so sorry. But thankfully that time your Mother told you the truth. Even as a tiny child, it gave you something real to work with. The bitter truth is always better than a sweet lie. The truth will set you free.
Mimolicious Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 This is true FOG! My Mom had her "reasons" for not telling me about catching my exH with his OW. Whatever those reasons were they are pointless now. Didn't matter and it made my mother looked like a separate enemy all together. His OW took it upon herself to ditch it out anyway. She was actually the one who told me about my mother knowing. That was glorious! I felt like the Empire State building fell on top of me. How this POS had basically raped the feeling of "trust" off of me. But hey! It's all in the name of "love"! So I guess all is fair...
pureinheart Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 I don't think I ever said he accepted it - can you point to the post because that isn't the impression I meant to convey. I did say that he didn't take the matter up with me but with his mother who betrayed her husband and family. She (the OW) was the one who told me this. I gather he was really upset with her (probably an understatement) as were his grandparents (who did tell me this). They have the ability to determine whether the younger lad is their biological grandson or not, so there is no need for them to agonize about it. Australia is a fairly secular country compared to the USA although Christianity is the most prevalent religion. Affairs are not really any more acceptable here than in the USA or the UK. I was born in the UK and my H was born here but moved to UK when he was a few weeks old. My brother is a US citizen so we have strong links in all 3 countries. That is interesting info, thanks Sid:)...I just hope everyone is on the mend...what's done is done, all of it. This didn't define you, it was a battle and there was much to overcome, although your future defines you... I hope all is well with the little guy and even if they do test and he is your H's, I hope he is loved no matter what:)...I really hope all goes well with you. I had an exbf/fiance that lived in Australia and M'ed an Australian and he said it was way open, so that's where I got my info, but that's just one person who only lived there a short time...that's why I asked that question...
jennie-jennie Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 (edited) I hope they are aware that it is possible to get a grandparent DNA test done to see if he is their grandchild. I sincerely hope so too, because I have seen with my own eyes how such uncertainty can totally ruin the relationship between a child and his grandparents. I was up to date on your story by the way. So no new details have been impacting my original take on the issue at hand. Edited July 24, 2010 by jennie-jennie
pureinheart Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 In the present moment I am not anyone's fool. I am no longer being taken for a ride. They didnt want to hurt me? By neglecting to tell me what was happening they did the same. So what did it really saved me from? It was actually double the pain to know that they knew and covered it. You never were though (anyones fool)...as for your family, that's a hard call to make. I've been in that sitch before...you just hope things will work out and the crap will stop...Mimo, it's just a hard call to make. Your family is your family...forever...homeboy is history and is not worth loosing your family...friends, that's a different story unless they were like way longtime friends....Mimo, it's just hard....
jennie-jennie Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 Yes and in fact we being very successful at re-establishing our relationship. We have just been out to breakfast together and last night went to a great jazz evening. All is good on that front. Much of what I've posted about in this thread is very much in the past. Unfortunately it can't be entirely relegated to the category of "past hurts" because of the possibility of the boy being my husband's child but nevertheless it is his decision currently to do nothing until the boy is older. I merely posted yesterday in response the the topic of moral indignation and jealousy with a small anecdote and it developed (overnight while I was asleep here in Australia) into a full-scale examination of what purportedly happened, with several people not even noticing they didn't have all the facts and others, filling in the facts wrongly and others assuming somehow that these were correct. This was the BH of a woman who my H "dated" while he was in the Affair with the long-term OW (an OOW if you will). I never updated that thread but I decided against contacting the putative BH due to lack of anything significant to tell him. The OOW does not repeatedly contact my H nor is there another child involved. I am in a recovering/reconciling marriage - I make no secret of that here on LS. It will take a long time before i am fully over it. But there's no need to be so accusatory as if there is something wrong in me taking time to get over my H's betrayals and infidelities. Sid, I am absolutely not questioning the time it is taking you to get over your husband's affair. I was questioning the opposite, that it was "very much in the past", which you made it sound like in the first post I quoted here, like everything was good and dandy and you were all over it.
jennie-jennie Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 Put it down to moral relativism Jennie - then I'm sure you will understand. So your morals is that it is okay to be vindictive?
pureinheart Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 Yes, as a matter of fact it is. As a parent you are to do NOTHING that will alienate a child from their parent. Sorry, but the courts in the majority of jurisdictions do not care about the sex lives of adults. And if you have a WS who knows their rights, and pursues it, you'll lose if they have the evidence. It is all about how the person portrays the partner. EX: You're father is abandoning us for another woman. Or: He doesn't want to be part of OUR family anymore. Or talking about how he is a liar etc. in front of the children IS parental alienation. Sorry if you don't like it, it's the law in many states of the US. And parental alienation happens on both sides, it just takes one side to pursue it in the courts. GEL This is quite interesting GEL:)...it wouldn't be hard to get evidence to back this up.
jennie-jennie Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 Well, I didn't have to tell her child. She ran into me on the street while she was with her kid and started blabbering it all out. Shewas th eone to tell me what was going on in front of her little one. That "she was F'ing my husband" right in front of her little kid. Her son knew who my exH anyway. (I wont post those details for privacy reasons. The world is too small) My exH is very well known. So there you go... the BS is not always the ghettofied, bad parent that drags their kids into the A mud. She didn't expose my exH is a respectful way (whatever that may be given the facts). It was more of a "Out to get Mimolicious" type scene. She went personally after me. Tried assaulting me, destroyed my car, private property, approached my son at the store and he ran out in tears. Showed up at my house. I SWEPT THE FLOOR WITH HER GRILL and got her arrested. Restraining orders in place, he is now hers to have and the end! Baffles me why after a person behaves this way even towards innocent children, why would a MM still chose that R. See, there are different dynamics to similar circumstances. Sid told her MM's OW son about the A. My exH OW told my son and her child too. Wow, that was a really bad story. Sorry you had to go through all that. There are OW who are behaving awfully, no question about that. To tell in front of her child and tell your child too . To go after you like that . Talk about vindictive and what had you done her by the way? (shaking my head)
jennie-jennie Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 You always manage to bring it back to a discussion about you don't you. Not my intention at all, but maybe yours?
jennie-jennie Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 (edited) The BS is also not aware that they are participating either so how does that make them any less of an innocent party? Actually the BS is doing nothing but participating in her M and family. I am not saying that the BS is not innocent. But a love triangle is a well known term which includes the WS, the BS and the OP, whether aware of it or not. It does not include any children. The BS is unknowingly sharing her husband with another woman. She still is sharing him even though she does not know it. Edited July 24, 2010 by jennie-jennie
jennie-jennie Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 What are you talking about? Who is bragging? My son knows his grandparents have sex -- he walked IN on them. I didn't say I joked with HIM about them having sex - me and my parents joke about it. Oh for heaven's sake, people will ASSume just about anything won't they? He loves that they are "2 old people who are in love" (his words). he doesn't see that with his father's parents or any other adults in his life (outside of me and his grandparents). It amazes me how some people take things and turn them into something gross. How sad .... how incredibly sad. I dunno. My adult daughter, who is very open-minded about sex, is bothered by her grandfather making out with her grandma in front of her, and by my sister and her husband who are swingers and often let the conversation turn into sexual insinuations. There is something about older relatives in that they should keep their sex life to themselves.
jennie-jennie Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 Off the subject but in relations and another example of being lied to about things that will have perhaps the deepest impact in a person's life: My father was murdered when I was 2. My family suggested that my mother lied to me and told me that he went away on a trip. They felt that I was too small to process the fact that he had gone to "heaven". Lucky for me, my mother didn't listen.... she told me and I have known the truth since I can remember. I didn't grow up wondering why my dad was on a "trip" and never cared to look for me or come back to be with me. I would have hated him and would have felt very much abandoned. Probably would have spent years looking for him, yet he is dead. Eventually one day, I would have ran into someone that would have told me the truth and I would have lost both parents. I would have held it against my mother for lying even if she did it with the greatest intention. In reality, the truth always comes out. Nothing can be hidden forever. Really sorry to hear this, Mimo. Your mother did the right thing in telling you. I think the key is that the story should be told by the relatives to the relatives (if they find this to be the best course of action), not by another party. Having been the BS of two serial cheaters, it still never entered my mind to tell their parents of this, although the parents were very good friends of mine. I didn't see it as my business to be telling the parents. My SOs were adults, of course, so why involve the parents.
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