jwi71 Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 I'm generally empathetic, but I bristle something chronic with my parents and sister. Otherwise I am the same across the board. Is that what you mean? If I was being empathetic to MM only and wasn't generally, that would signify a problem? I was meaning why be empathetic to some when we have the capacity to be empathetic to all. What, in "you" (both specific you and general you) allows for the selective application of empathy. I'd walk down that path a bit...see what you find.
wheelwright Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 I was meaning why be empathetic to some when we have the capacity to be empathetic to all. What, in "you" (both specific you and general you) allows for the selective application of empathy. I'd walk down that path a bit...see what you find. I'd say empathy requires effort and occasionally the results can be painful. Some people give you no incentive to put in the effort. It's like you've got your glasses handy, but the view from what you can make out is damn ugly. However, the point you make is a good one if we think about the special effort we make for some people. Clutching at straws? Sometimes people do this. It's called making excuses. I empathise with how my mother treated my sister so badly - I can see her way of viewing it. But I do not for one minute think her behaviour is excusable by her 'issues'. I think SG seems to be developing some good boundaries about MM's behaviour. Despite understanding where he comes from.
White Flower Posted July 20, 2010 Posted July 20, 2010 I'm generally empathetic, but I bristle something chronic with my parents and sister. Otherwise I am the same across the board. Is that what you mean? If I was being empathetic to MM only and wasn't generally, that would signify a problem? I was thinking earlier...someone who lacked empathy wouldn't have been so affected by her mother's comments. KWIM? And that made you even MORE empathetic, probably even too empathetic, if that is possible. I think it is, especially if you do what I do and go into analysis paralysis.
silverplanets Posted July 20, 2010 Posted July 20, 2010 I was thinking earlier...someone who lacked empathy wouldn't have been so affected by her mother's comments. KWIM? And that made you even MORE empathetic, probably even too empathetic, if that is possible. I think it is, especially if you do what I do and go into analysis paralysis. WF ... I agree that there could potentially be a link between SG's mother's comments and SG's empathy/ability to focus on others. Not saying there is, just that I can see it could happen, especially if the mother's comments were often of this nature and SG was in a vulnerable age range as far as the development of self was concerned. Saying someone is behaving "selfish" is differnet to having somone who is your role model tell you that you, as a person, are selfish. It is possible to call someone on their behaviour (acting in a selfish manner) without calling into question their entire being, nature and integrity. If children/young adults are repeatedly made to feel that they are "less than good" then they don't have the sense of developed self to say "no I am not, I am good, it is just my behaviour that is being comment on, not my being". In this case they can begin to "internalise worthlessness " and, perhaps worse, judge their "worth" solely on the feedback from the role model ... hence their focus is not where it should be (on their inner self which is developing) but on their role model to anticipate their needs so that they can act in the appropriate manner for positive feedback. In this case "high empathy" can be translated as "extreme sensitivity" which originated as a survival technique to prevent the onset of crushing "you are useless" comments. Danger is, of course, as one goes into adulthood that one still subconsciously operates in this manner .. hyper sensitivity to prevent a re-occurence of that terrible feedback from childhood. So we have a child that lives for it's parents becoming an adult that lives for others (the substitute parents) .. and who, quite naturally, believes that this is what love is. Anyway, not saying this is SG ... just mulling into WF's words ... keep safe Chris
White Flower Posted July 20, 2010 Posted July 20, 2010 Chris the philosopher AND the psychoanalyst! And it just dawned on me, due to spelling, that you may be British? Suddenly the voice and accent changes. Sorry for the t/j.
Author Silly_Girl Posted July 20, 2010 Author Posted July 20, 2010 Just wanted to throw in that as far as empathy goes I'm an argumentative madam and did excellently at school for debating, and the social arguments in my religion GCSE. And I enjoy playing devil's advocate more than is sometimes sensible. When I get the chance I'm going to retrain as a barrister. What I'm trying to say is they my personal brand of empathy may well be a form of hyper sensitivity but I have always found it easy (and natural) to argue both sides of the coin.
Fight4Me Posted July 20, 2010 Posted July 20, 2010 After reading this thread, I am convinced my IQ went up 30 points. I will just add that I tend to be an empathetic person sometimes to a fault. Even if I haven't been in the exact same situation as someone else, I can clearly visualize myself there. It can be harmful when you try to help too much. Growing up on a farm, I watched many baby chicks hatch. I remember moving to help one of them get out of their shell because it seemed like such a needless arduous struggle, but my grandfather pulled me back and explained that it was necessary for it to do it on its own or else it wouldn't survive. There have been times in my life that I look back and thank God I was given the space to do what I had to do on my own. I wouldn't be the person I am today, so I agree with SP when he suggests this is possibly one of those pivotal moments in the MM's life that he has to go through in order to become the man he is meant to be. Maybe he has to break out of his shell on his own if he is to survive.
White Flower Posted July 20, 2010 Posted July 20, 2010 After reading this thread, I am convinced my IQ went up 30 points. I will just add that I tend to be an empathetic person sometimes to a fault. Even if I haven't been in the exact same situation as someone else, I can clearly visualize myself there. It can be harmful when you try to help too much. Growing up on a farm, I watched many baby chicks hatch. I remember moving to help one of them get out of their shell because it seemed like such a needless arduous struggle, but my grandfather pulled me back and explained that it was necessary for it to do it on its own or else it wouldn't survive. There have been times in my life that I look back and thank God I was given the space to do what I had to do on my own. I wouldn't be the person I am today, so I agree with SP when he suggests this is possibly one of those pivotal moments in the MM's life that he has to go through in order to become the man he is meant to be. Maybe he has to break out of his shell on his own if he is to survive. I love the analogy.
silverplanets Posted July 20, 2010 Posted July 20, 2010 After reading this thread, I am convinced my IQ went up 30 points. I will just add that I tend to be an empathetic person sometimes to a fault. Even if I haven't been in the exact same situation as someone else, I can clearly visualize myself there. It can be harmful when you try to help too much. Growing up on a farm, I watched many baby chicks hatch. I remember moving to help one of them get out of their shell because it seemed like such a needless arduous struggle, but my grandfather pulled me back and explained that it was necessary for it to do it on its own or else it wouldn't survive. There have been times in my life that I look back and thank God I was given the space to do what I had to do on my own. I wouldn't be the person I am today, so I agree with SP when he suggests this is possibly one of those pivotal moments in the MM's life that he has to go through in order to become the man he is meant to be. Maybe he has to break out of his shell on his own if he is to survive. Like wf I love the second quote. I like the first a lot as well ...
silverplanets Posted July 20, 2010 Posted July 20, 2010 SP and WW you are both amazing! I'm sure we could sit and philosophize all day long and never bore each other, but back to SG. What I know about my own experience with MM and empathy is that I really made him my project. Eventually, it wore me out. At one point I noticed he couldn't even keep up with me and HE was the subject! Just be careful. Care for him, but don't make him your project. ps I know my experience won't necessarily be your experience. Just threw that in for WW and SP. Laughing at that :) I've definately made the "project" mistake before ... most definately indeed :)
silverplanets Posted July 20, 2010 Posted July 20, 2010 Chris the philosopher AND the psychoanalyst! And it just dawned on me, due to spelling, that you may be British? Suddenly the voice and accent changes. Sorry for the t/j. Crikey Jeeves ... we've been tumbled !!! :) British, but lived outside for almost 10 years in a very different culture .. back to thread ...
silverplanets Posted July 20, 2010 Posted July 20, 2010 Just wanted to throw in that as far as empathy goes I'm an argumentative madam and did excellently at school for debating, and the social arguments in my religion GCSE. And I enjoy playing devil's advocate more than is sometimes sensible. When I get the chance I'm going to retrain as a barrister. What I'm trying to say is they my personal brand of empathy may well be a form of hyper sensitivity but I have always found it easy (and natural) to argue both sides of the coin. I am wondering why this is ?
White Flower Posted July 21, 2010 Posted July 21, 2010 Just wanted to throw in that as far as empathy goes I'm an argumentative madam and did excellently at school for debating, and the social arguments in my religion GCSE. And I enjoy playing devil's advocate more than is sometimes sensible. When I get the chance I'm going to retrain as a barrister. What I'm trying to say is they my personal brand of empathy may well be a form of hyper sensitivity but I have always found it easy (and natural) to argue both sides of the coin.You SHOULD retrain as a barrister! I am wondering why this is ? Speaking for myself, and people like me;), playing Devil's Advocate was nurtured within the family. While it came naturallly to me, it didn't to my sister; yet, she plays it today and very in-your-face about it while I am more subtle in my approach. I suppose it has to do with trying to see the other side or angle before attacking that which you don't understand. Another form of empathy I suppose. SG, do you agree?
Author Silly_Girl Posted July 21, 2010 Author Posted July 21, 2010 Hhmmm, WF, I do view it as something akin to empathy. As to where it came from... In part I inherited it from my mother... HER mother was very black and white and could be judgemental to the point of nasty; mum felt she was never given choices and her way became to argue both sides when I was trying to make a choice or decision. All a bit farcical really because it was always so bloody obvious EXACTLY what she wanted me to do Then at school I used to write stories for fun when I was younger (primary school), which might require empathy with characters. Certainly my RE stuff helped too; arguing pro-abortion for one activity and anti-abortion on the next for example. But as for why I still do it NOW? I think I enjoy it. It's interesting, and fun, to me, to attempt to see both sides of the coin, and even more so when I hold a firm belief one way or another. I also find it useful in an argument, if I've clocked the opposing arguments I'm more likely to offer something constructive and persuasive. In short, I'm argumentative
silverplanets Posted July 22, 2010 Posted July 22, 2010 Hhmmm, WF, I do view it as something akin to empathy. As to where it came from... In part I inherited it from my mother... HER mother was very black and white and could be judgemental to the point of nasty; mum felt she was never given choices and her way became to argue both sides when I was trying to make a choice or decision. All a bit farcical really because it was always so bloody obvious EXACTLY what she wanted me to do Then at school I used to write stories for fun when I was younger (primary school), which might require empathy with characters. Certainly my RE stuff helped too; arguing pro-abortion for one activity and anti-abortion on the next for example. But as for why I still do it NOW? I think I enjoy it. It's interesting, and fun, to me, to attempt to see both sides of the coin, and even more so when I hold a firm belief one way or another. I also find it useful in an argument, if I've clocked the opposing arguments I'm more likely to offer something constructive and persuasive. In short, I'm argumentative Not quite sure how to phrase this and am short of an eloquent analogy for it, so I'll just muddle it though ... I have an image in my head of some imaginary person who is centered, at peace with their position and time on this planet and aware of their own needs and what they wish to do with their time ... This person gets up every day and just quietly goes about their purpose .. no need for argument because they are sure in their purpose and they can't be actioning their purpose whlist they are arguing. Equally, if this person has high empathy then they are aware of those around them and yet also aware that those around them all have their own purpose .. so whilst they can feel what others around them are feeling, they are also happy to leave the others to grow according to their own purpose. Where necessary they help, support etc, but only in the knowledge that the purpose of any help or support should just be to help someone get back to working on their own purpose. They never take ownership of someone else's goal for them. I'm not saying this is or isn't you (or anyone else). I'm just imaging this centered person aware of, and fulfilling their own unique purpose with their time on this planet. And in doing so it's made me think ... skills such as being able to see both sides, empathy etc are really great things to have if one has the deep anchor of one's own life purpose to harness them to. If one's unsure of one's life purpose though, then it's hard to use these tools to really achieve anything ... or if they are used then one doesn't know what one is achieving .. and why. Maybe a bit like the old "If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there." saying ... one can just "do stuff" cause it's getting one somewhere ... It would seem to me that one possible key pre-requisites for being able to know one's deep purpose would be confidence with who one is inside. Which I guess potentially brings us back to your mum's comments ... OK, that's far to much random musings ... only doing it because I know you won't take it as gospel and will just take it as one possible view from someone who isn't really that close to the situation. be safe Chris
White Flower Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 Crikey Jeeves ... we've been tumbled !!! :) British, but lived outside for almost 10 years in a very different culture .. back to thread ... Is that just another way of saying, 'bugger off'? (Thanks for answering the previous question) Not quite sure how to phrase this and am short of an eloquent analogy for it, so I'll just muddle it though ... I have an image in my head of some imaginary person who is centered, at peace with their position and time on this planet and aware of their own needs and what they wish to do with their time ... This person gets up every day and just quietly goes about their purpose .. no need for argument because they are sure in their purpose and they can't be actioning their purpose whlist they are arguing. Equally, if this person has high empathy then they are aware of those around them and yet also aware that those around them all have their own purpose .. so whilst they can feel what others around them are feeling, they are also happy to leave the others to grow according to their own purpose. Where necessary they help, support etc, but only in the knowledge that the purpose of any help or support should just be to help someone get back to working on their own purpose. They never take ownership of someone else's goal for them. I'm not saying this is or isn't you (or anyone else). I'm just imaging this centered person aware of, and fulfilling their own unique purpose with their time on this planet. And in doing so it's made me think ... skills such as being able to see both sides, empathy etc are really great things to have if one has the deep anchor of one's own life purpose to harness them to. If one's unsure of one's life purpose though, then it's hard to use these tools to really achieve anything ... or if they are used then one doesn't know what one is achieving .. and why. Maybe a bit like the old "If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there." saying ... one can just "do stuff" cause it's getting one somewhere ... It would seem to me that one possible key pre-requisites for being able to know one's deep purpose would be confidence with who one is inside. Which I guess potentially brings us back to your mum's comments ... OK, that's far to much random musings ... only doing it because I know you won't take it as gospel and will just take it as one possible view from someone who isn't really that close to the situation. be safe Chris Oh now you've gone and knackered me out! (Is that how one spells knackered?).
silverplanets Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 Is that just another way of saying, 'bugger off'? No, not at all :) I did write a lot more then decided it was a bit self-indulgent of me writing about myself on SG's thread, so deleted it and hence ended up with just "back to thread" ... I can see how it could read wrong though, but no, that wasn't the intention :) (Thanks for answering the previous question) Oh now you've gone and knackered me out! (Is that how one spells knackered?). Yep, was a bit of a ramble that one :) Pretty sure I was trying to alude to a point in there somewhere ... It's always difficult with these things, as one never knows the real situation, and people are inherently complex, so I tend to go with the view of just encouraging them to shine a light on different areas and see what they find ... sometimes this can be a bit vague though ! :) Keep safe Chris
Author Silly_Girl Posted July 23, 2010 Author Posted July 23, 2010 SP - you are the gentlest poster ever!! I am at my desk, I have 2 screens. This one I am typing in, and on the one next to it I have your post. But when I look at the text I don't see words; what I got from your post was a real visual. Not sure I like it, but it's there nevertheless. And I'm not sure I interpreted it properly, but that's not really the point, is it? In a way it's been a deep and complex thread to cover something that I now visualise as incredibly simple. I do feel I know my direction, my purpose. I do have my own inner core that is what/who I am. I have lost touch with that in the past. I have vowed not to do so again. Hhmmmm..... Funnily enough it does cross over with thoughts I've had recently, and things I've said to MM (most recently 'oh stop it, that's bull$h!t and we both know it!'). But I'll update elsewhere. Really enjoyed the posts on this though. Oh, and last night my counsellor used the term 'making excuses for' in respect of a familial relationship I am trying to improve; as in, because I understand why this person is this way I accept how crass and hurtful they sometimes are to me. Uncomfortably familiar.
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